Just for discussion (rain riders ?).
 

Firstly a great big get well soon to all,especially Matt, and Bradders,All our thoughts are with you boys.
A great big well done to all on the various achievements from jimbos triple to Ross,s return, personal positives too numerous to mention the dd padock is up and running .
On a personal note the shoulder is back together but will be in gaffer tape for oulton !!,and it was great to see Keith Jackson (34) up and about after i hit him,and it was a big one ,so all good there.
More to the point,and bear in mind this is only for debate and are only my thoughts regarding rider safety-so here goes.
Firstly, now we are getting larger grids,should we have a staggered start allowing a and b better recognition of their achievements,and a safer passage for all as when it comes to lapping etc the pack is more strung out,and also reducing the first corner(S) melee .
secondly when it gets properly wet and i mean anglesey 3rd race wet when people are aqua planing at 100 mph plus should we have some kind of control.By this i mean ,for example,designate 2 class a,and 2 class b riders (rain riders)who would signal that the conditions are not suitable for competitive racing on our tyres.This of course would not incur any liability on the riders or club,but would at least be good practice to protect riders.The problem being that we are going out in full wet conditions on tyres that cannot shift that amount of water,and unfortunately people have been seriously hurt and from the outside it doesnt look good,and frustrates a lot of people.
I certainly dont want this to take away from people like jimbo who rode an absolutely legendary race,but to let us race in "normal" wet conditions,as i feel we have no protection from other parties who would have no real interest in voiding a race,when the other groups go out.
I know that we have every right to say that we dont want to race,but there is a certain pressure in a national championship that seems to push us out there,so i thought if we started a debate we may meet some medium that may move the series forward safely,
Finaly i thought i would share an intimate moment from the medical centre at anglesey,
hi dave
hi
which room ?
oh the usual!
oh whats that scar?
thats where i had my heart surgery.
Do you have angina.
No,and i dont have t*ts either,its my shoulder that hurts!!
some of the most embattled docs on the planet,you have to thank them for their dedication.
bring on oulton park (and dry racing !!):lol:

Dave we had more crashes in the dry saterday than we had sunday in the wet . when we were in the collecting area waiting to go out for the last race three bikes crashed one arfter the other and those guys were out on wets .we had one or two who chose not to go out or pulled in thats there choice were not forced to go out in the wet ,besides these are road tyres if you were out on the road and it started raining would you stop and wait for it to dry up hopefully not lol you ride to the conditions you feel safe its just some feel more safer than others just my thought s on the matter

We are doing the same as other race series, that use road tyres and no wets. That does not mean that it is right or wrong. Perhaps should be brought up if we have an end of year meeting like last year?

Mark

Yes, I'm sure we will have the end-of-year meeting.

I think it's crazy that DD doesn't allow the use of wets

quite apart from the safety aspect they are simply amazing fun :D and promote much better racing which is surely what it's all about.

I havn't turned a wheel in a DD race yet but I can't imagine it being much fun wobbling around on road tyres and looking at the times it would seem to back up what I think.

Got to say I agree with Kev, we had fewer crashes in the wet than in the dry, so I don't think weather is an issue, better tyres only mean people will go quicker and push harder; ride to the conditions and to what you feel comfortable with. No matter what we try and do or what we put in place, it is a dangerous sport and while we hope it doesn't happen unfortunately every now and again people will get hurt. my two penith

Wet weather creates its own challenges. Riding in the wet just isnt as simple as putting wet tyres on. Ride to the condtions, find the grip, use different lines, different throttle control the list goes on and on.

but is it fun racing?

the times suggest that most people are nervously circulating and happy to get back without falling off.

just my opinion but that's not what it's about.

put wets on and you can still get knee down and the confidence and feel is great.

average lap times at the weekend where 2:10 to 2:20 .. I'd expect to drop that to around 1:50 to 1:55 ... 20 seconds a lap is a lot :eek:

Having been part of the "tyre" debate for a few yeras now I have to say my opinion has changed and totally agree with Kev P.

1. The series is designed to help maintain a low budget with subsidised tyre prices and no need for spare wheels.

2. If it's wet you can choose if you wish to go out or not.

3. There is now an option for the use of wets with the C1 class.

4. I had 5 crashes racing in DD all of them in the dry.

:D

I'm not sure how putting wets on promotes closer racing, those that are happy in the wet go quick those that aren't don't, changing tyres will not change that.
Also part of what attracted me to this class was the way it had been set up to try and keep a lid on costs, if we are allowed wets, then you have spare wheels, tyre warmers, if you're not in a garage you need a genny. Once we've played with better tyres in the wet and have tyre warmers will we then want to use the latest rubber that's stickier that our current Dunlops all which just do one thing, push the cost up and the quick guys will be even quicker but the rest of us won't be any closer.

I've got my knee down in the wet on the old Pirelli Diablos in a DD race, so this isn't the issue.

I think it's very clear that wet tyres will create more problems than they solve and are not, and have never been, in the spirit of what DD was created for.

Those are the rules for DD, and if you wish to race on wets there are plenty of other series which will happily take you.

/blunt ;)

Rules is rules............if you dont have wets in the rules you cant use them. Makes no difference to me, when its wets my arse clamps up and I ride like a pussy, or fall off. I dont think the cost thing comes into it really, have you seen the number of spare wheels with new sets of tyres on in the DD paddock? A weekends wet racing could save some people 3-400quid by not using multiple sets off new tyres thougout the weekend.....Gennies not really an issue too, plent of people have them as well plenty of people booking onto garages.

For me, wets would be fun. BUT i am also happy enough with the rules as they are.

PS, my 620 now running...............

The other point to remember is that the rules reflect the wishes of majority of the paddock and not just a few individuals. If the paddock votes for wets, warmers, grid girls, naked riding, etc, then we would implement that as the rules.

As far as I am aware, there has never been a majority vote for wets in the paddock.

Some of the points here are worth noting - just having wets doesn't suddenly stop you falling off: the reason you fell off is because you didn't ride within the limits of the tyres you have, and wets have limits too! It may also increase the gap between the front and the back of the grid, so maybe having road tyres as a handicap is better for the racing? And statistics show that DD riders fall off just as much, if not more, in the dry than they do in the wet...

Happy to play by the rules .. doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on them.

Not racing because it rains isn't really an option .. Not unless the club are happy to refund the entry fee :frog:

No need for gennys .. Spare wheels cheap as chips and I can't see what problems it would bring.

Only use them when a race declared wet

Dunlop make them so could be supplied by the same tyre guy.

This argument obviously raises it's head on a regular basis .. maybe there's a good reason

Do we get to vote do we?

They may not stop you falling off but 20 secs a lap says they're more fun.

Yes it does, and usually by people who have yet to race in DD?

Not really the point is it ..

You're quiet Dave, are you having a chuckle at the banter you started:lol:

Racing in the wet is ok, but its the amount of standing water. If rain is too bad in F1 & Motogp the start is delayed. Those conditions for the last race in my opinion warranted an official to intervene and say lets give it a period of time to ease.

We were stopped after 6 laps at Brands a couple of years ago because of standing water. The river running down from Rocket was the cause of Matts off. Those tyres at racing speed cannot cope with 25mm + of standing water, possibly very few can.

So in summarry its a case of how bad is bad before someone says wait a while.

...which is not something that the DSC can call, nor could the riders, as it would be down to the race organiser, and in our case Hottrax.

Why not? If you've not raced in the series with the rules as given, how can you have any experience?

If you look at the opinion of those who do have experience in the series, such as Kev and Mike, you'll see that they think the series doesn't need wets.


But as I said before up there ^^ we have rules so you know what you're signing up to before you race. If you don't like those rules, you don't have to race as nobody is forcing you to!!

/blunt ;)

[quote=antonye]The other point to remember is that the rules reflect the wishes of majority of the paddock and not just a few individuals. If the paddock votes for wets, warmers, grid girls, naked riding, etc, then we would implement that as the rules.

QUOTE]

So when's the vote? :lol:

Ask Craig he may differ in opinion

IMHO Ghost has called it right: the organisers need to step up when it's too much and postpone or cut short the race/s

But then think of the abuse they will get when they stop a race from starting but won't give a refund....

...which is the root of the problem; we all have differing opinions, so we have to go with the majority and not with what the "individual who shouts the loudest" wants!

This consultation/voting leads us to a set of rules, which you then either agree to and race with, or don't agree to and find a different series to race in.

The rule consultation period usually happens at the end of the year with rule changes being discussed and agreed as far advance in as possible, otherwise people moan that they don't know what the rules are for the next season.

However, should someone have serious concerns (about any issue) and wish to call a vote for all riders then as Chairman I am happy to listen and to see if we can accomodate those rule changes.

Be aware that major rule changes, such as tyres, would not be implemented until a new season and we would also need to have a consultation period which may include testing of the various options. If it was a major safety concern, or some smaller rule (ie, a rule refinement or clarification to stop cheating or suspected cheating) then these adjustments are easier to fit in during a season, but again we would expect to have a period of consultation to ensure that what we were doing was the right thing and in the spirit of what Desmo Due was created for.

I don't think cost can be levied by anyone as a genuine reason not to use wets. Most bikes have plenty of money spent on them, some lots, and many seem to have spare wheels. Do you have to have warmers?

Think it's only a discussion based on 2 things
Safety
Spirit of DD

Safety only seems an issue when as described by Ghost, and spirit of DD is cheap controlled racing which 1 control tyre suits

Raises a valid point that the threshhold of what can be considered as "safe to race" would be lowered by the tyres ability to displace water .. Do you think Hottrax take this into account?

Hottrax do take it in account as they did on sunday the clark of the course wash talking of delaying the racing because of the wind , its in there interest not to send us out if it was dangerous . personaly i dont see a problem riding in the rain ,i was having fun in all three races was happy to carry on ,i got my best results in the wet just got to be smooth and brake in a straight line . it brings out more ryder skills and if you relax its just as enjoyable . ive rode on wets on big bikes they have limits it gives you more confidence but can be over confident hence why we saw so many crash on wets on sunday

oops
 

well it certainly started a discussion,thanks to all for their bit.The bit i was getting at was not about wets or changing the spirit of dd,ghost-bradders and bally have the gist of what i was aiming at.I slid in the same puddles that caused matt to crash,i backed off cos i was already hurting ,It has happened before at snett 100mph plus on one foot and one wheel,even jimbo crashed out !!!but it was a championship race and you cant blame people for pushing.(at this point we need to have matts opinion for the reason of his crash)of course when he is well enough.All i was saying was ,that if at a certain point the prevailing conditions dictate that we wait for a start or postpone or void or stop the race we need to discuss options to control what happens.Sure i can pull off and stop,but i feel that hottrax (for all the best reasons)would have no reason to stop a race due to extreme weather-our rules say that we will race on control tyres,end of argument.If we start thinking about it now,we can fine tune something for next year.The thing that niggles is that we cannot get into any kind of scenario that may incur serious injuries so just a little food for thought.
by the way,on the safety front.I just got out of hospital
apparently the dyson ball cleaner is not what you think!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

it is what it is so therefore it is like it is...
 

Every type of tyre has a limit of grip, wet or dry.
We manage to have more fallers in perfect dry warm conditions than in wet puddling conditions.
I figure the concept of racing involves riding as close as you dare to either your limit, bikes limit, or tyres limit, whichever is slowest. Racing in the wet has be to the limit of grip, or more your confidence in how much grip you think you have.
With the tyres we run that may not be that much, but they seem fairly predictable and the speed we can reach is considerably less. Therefore when we find that limit we will be going much slower, have more chance of catching it and hopefully hurt less if we loose it. This could be argued as being safer, and cant be disputed as simpler and cheaper. We may look a bit silly to onlookers who don't know what we are doing tiptoeing round, but that doesn't really matter.
Those that push it harder have a chance of gaining places to balance against a chance of falling off. We can all see the patches of standing (and running) water and make our choices whether to back off or gamble on them- letting someone go could loose you the place or equally gain it if they overestimate the grip- you pay your money and take your choice.
Personally i think the middle ground when it's patchy is the hardest and most dangerous when you will push harder where there's grip and maybe run out to a slippy bit- this will still be the case if we allowed wets and could so easily end up on the wrong tyre anyway.
I've had my 2p's worth now and reckon the rules are what they are, are fine, and are what we all chose to do- after all there are plenty of other classes where you can use any tyre and blow our season's tyre budget in a weekend if that's your thing. If we were trying to go 140mph+ with 120bhp+ it may be a whole different story, but I'd rather do this as it's a different kind of challenge and a whole lot of fun!!

absolutely right miles,and your reply totally encompasses the dd spirit that i enjoyed and still enjoy.however the crux of what i am getting at is"lets talk now about making changes at the end of the season regarding weather conditions that are outside of an agreed window for our tyres" what if it snows,what if its icy,what if the water is too deep or extreme.if the rules say race on the grass ,then i will (and have )

Dave - how happy would you be to take a decision it's ok for everyone to race, for then someone to have an incident because of the conditions?

Now I'm happy to make decisions and stand by them and willing to debate the reasons for any of them, but tbh I wouldn't ever want that kind of responsibility.

IMHO leave that to the organisers; we should be concentrating on anything which makes the racing cheaper, or more competitive or more fun Or all three :)

Can i just say that i didn't have one front end tuck or rear slide all weekend! i found the standing water, where Matt crashed on lap 1 and rolled off at that point every lap thereafter. Matt didn't know about it untill the bike went sideways, unfortunatly to late and he was on the grass by then. Matt and myself have disscussed this at length a number of times this week and have both come to the conclusion that it would have taken race control to make the call, cause we'd both gone out there and raced! Those around me know that i've requested the use of wets be allowed for racing a number of times over the years, but i really don't have a problem running on the tyres that are currently used. Matt would not have crashed if we'd been on wets and yes the wet lap times would drop. There was lots of grip at Anglesey, more so than Oulton last year, where you could hardly lean the bike as it was tucking left, right and centre. I would leave the call to race control to make to be honest. If your unsure, don't go out. It's not excactly MotoGP, just enjoy it for what it is.

You must have had one Andy, as you were on the floor when I came around Rocket. :eek:

You know I can't leave you lot alone for a minute. Weren't like this back in my day. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway even though I got to use wets on the 996 a part of me missed the DD tyre. I think Miles is right in what he said that using the Dunlop in the wet can sort of increase safety somewhat maybe due to the reduced speed or higher awareness of the conditions
As I and others said earlier you don't have to go out ! just ask Dallas he refuses to go out in the wet where as James Stevenson seems to excell in the wet.
Ok you've paid to race and you don't get a refund well so what. If I was unsure about my ability to go out in the wet I would choose loosing a £75 race value rather than trashing myself and the bike.

I didn't do the last race at Snett because I was to tired which I know was the right call.

:D

I hate the rain, that's why I have paid extra for sunshine at Oulton

lol i hope so .. gets awful slippery under them trees

Forcast is rain!

I guess i'm the only person who doesn't WANT to have to change wheels during a race weekend!

Wets still on my 1C from Anglesey ;)

Still slower than the A & B bikes out there in the wet but I dont mind it at all now on Wets.

Craig