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-   -   Proposal to run wets in 2016 (/showthread.php?t=423616)

Laverdisti 19-Oct-2015 22:24

Proposal to run wets in 2016
 
Hi,
I am not one for forums and such but I have had to put my natural reluctance to one side in this instance. I do find it rather odd that a major change to the Desmo rules that has been proposed for 2016 has not yet been discussed on the forum and that change is the proposal to run wets. This needs serious consideration by all of the riders.
Kevin had the good grace, around mid season, to ask me for my opinion regarding running wets in 2016 and I have to admit I replied that I had no opposition with the proposal. However, I really did not think too clearly about the matter
I have since reconsidered. Running wet tyres will offer no benefits to us as a class. If it were the case that the existing SportSmart 2 performed poorly or dangerously in very wet conditions, then obviously, for safety sake, the option to be able to switch to a wet tyre specifically designed for such conditions would make sense. However this, to me, appears not to be the case as the SportSmart 2 seems to be an excellent tyre in the wet, it is predictable and clears standing water surprisingly well.
Having to run wet tyres will only incur extra expense for the riders with them having to purchase rims, discs and (wet) tyres. Additionally there will be the aggravation of having to switch over rims in the paddock. There will also be the possibility of a race turning into a lottery if conditions may change during a race and and who will have made a correct or lucky choice will then be faster than those whose tyres do not suit the track conditions (I am assuming here that the rider will be able to make the choice of which tyre he wishes to run and not the organisers? I have no idea what present rules/protocol exist for wet races). Returning to the matter of extra expense, there is no fun in having to discard a set of brand new wets due to a dried up track.
The use of a sole control tyre is to the credit of the series and should not be given up lightly The Desmo series flies the flag of simplicity, a level playing field and an attempt to keep costs down. The prospect of running wets seems to me, at least, to go against all of these principles.
I would like to take the opportunity of thanking Kevin for all of his hard work in keeping the Desmo series alive this year.

Trumpet 20-Oct-2015 00:35

My understanding of the situation about wets is, this not just a proposal to do it for the sake of doing it, but more an to do with the consideration of who we are able to go racing with next year. If the situation were ideal we would have DD grids big enough to always have our own races, however if we cannot guarantee full grids (or nearly full) race organisers will in turn be reluctant to guarantee our own grids. This being the case we may end up having to race with other series (e.g 400's etc) and then it would just be unsafe to be out in a wet race with some on wets and some on basically road tyres.
The only way I can see that we could solve this, is for all prospective 2016 DD racers to give our committee some kind of commitment so they can have a reasonably accurate idea of the amount of racers for next season, if we get enough racers commitment they can negotiate with the prospective meeting organisers on our behalf to get our own grids. Without this sort of commitment organisers will look at the average grid size over the last 2-3 years to get an idea of the DD grids and base there considerations on this.
Anyway, thats my understanding of the difficulties facing our committee when they start more earnest discussions with the possible race organisers, but I am sure our committee will outline things in more detail once the options are fully understood.

bally71 20-Oct-2015 18:34

I've always thought we should use wets.

I'd be happy if the club made the call though so everyone went out on the same tyres.

Only need them if there's standing water

skidlids 21-Oct-2015 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet
My understanding of the situation about wets is, this not just a proposal to do it for the sake of doing it, but more an to do with the consideration of who we are able to go racing with next year.


Correct

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet
If the situation were ideal we would have DD grids big enough to always have our own races, however if we cannot guarantee full grids (or nearly full) race organisers will in turn be reluctant to guarantee our own grids.


DD is now in a very weak negotiating position due to its small grid size
In 2015 we averaged less than 20 entries per race, with the average starters at 18 per race and the average number of finishers was 16.

Entries per meeting (excluding Guest riders)were
Brands = 23, Cadwell = 22, Pembrey = 16, Snetterton = 25
That was running with Hottrax, afterwards with EMRA, NGRRC and Derby Phoenix we had
Mallory = 20, Anglesey = 20, Cadwell = 19 and Pembrey = 15

So at times barely half a grid and at no time anywhere near a full grid, as such it is hard to justify our own separate grid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet
This being the case we may end up having to race with other series (e.g 400's etc) and then it would just be unsafe to be out in a wet race with some on wets and some on basically road tyres.


All clubs need to maximise their income from each grid, when each slot is worth around £225 having 10 empty places means they are loosing out to the tune of £2250, this is why the likes of Hottrax and New Era no longer exist where as Thundersport GB and Bemsee who will run several classes per grid are surviving

All the clubs we ran with in the second half of the 2015 season are happy to have us back

EMRA plan to run 6 one day meetings in 2016 all at Mallory and all on Sunday's
Derby Phoenix are planning 3 meetings but so far have 2 Cadwell dates
NGRRC are planning 8 meetings with no circuits visited more than once and if we have sufficient numbers we can have our own grids at 5 of the meetings but at Thruxton, Castle Combe and Donington we don't have sufficient numbers to warrant a separate grid as they can all accommodate over 40 bikes per grid and are popular meetings at costly venues so we would need to share a grid with either 400s as Mark says or with Open 500s or maybe even Mini Twins and as all these classes are allowed to use Wets it would be unsafe if we did not also allow them should the track be wet.

We have run for 11 seasons without wets and in that time I have missed 3 meetings, Anglesey first time DD went there, Assen first time DD went there and Donington when New Era decided to change the format. in that time I haven't had an issue with our lack of wets and have never sat out a race because of the conditions, yet in that same time I have watched the numbers in DD drop at one time we had separate grids for Class A and Class B with around 30 per grid and now we average a third of that.

So without adopting wets I can't see DD surviving

Laverdisti 21-Oct-2015 11:19

Hi,
I agree with the suggestion of all of the Desmo racers committing early to 2016 so that the Desmo series can negotiate from a position of strength with the meeting organisers on our behalf to get our own grids. If we get our own grids we won't need wets appears to be the bottom line.

I have to ask this though, if wet tyres are used next year I am assuming that the RIDER has the choice of what tyres he runs in a race and not the organisers? This seems obvious to me but after walking back into this game after 25 years, monitoring and H&S control has certainly encroached onto the sport.

skidlids 21-Oct-2015 14:30

We had 38 riders commit to the series prior to the start of last season but this does not insure large grid sizes, at Pembrey in April it was evident that people weren't entering because they didn't want to race in the wet, the unknown is would they have if they had been allowed to use wets.
Based on recent figures it is unlikely DD will attract anywhere near the 40 plus bikes for some of the bigger, more costly circuits, where each grid needs to pull in around £6500 to make the two day meeting pay

When a race is declared WET by the organisers it is still as far as I know up to the individual rider to what tyre he arrives in the collecting area on. As some will often gamble on which way the conditions will change

paynep 22-Oct-2015 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by skidlids

When a race is declared WET by the organisers it is still as far as I know up to the individual rider to what tyre he arrives in the collecting area on. As some will often gamble on which way the conditions will change



Maybe the answer is to have a control tyre and free choice of wets?

The current Dunlops are cheap and work ok in dry/damp conditions, but given the choice I would not want to race on them in proper rain.
Times change and the original ethos of DD has to move on, IMHO

milesaway 23-Oct-2015 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by paynep
Maybe the answer is to have a control tyre and free choice of wets?
O


If the wets used are control as well then we maintain all being on same tyres which seems to make sense to me

skidlids 23-Oct-2015 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by milesaway
If the wets used are control as well then we maintain all being on same tyres which seems to make sense to me


working on it Miles, had a promising phone conversation today, but these talks always take a while.

We are the end users and need to be supported directly by the manufacturer to get a good deal on prices.

But in between we need a tyre supplier who is ideally in the paddock of the club we are racing with such as Pro tyre when we were with Hottrax and their deal is done with the tyre manufacturer.

coppersaucepipe 28-Oct-2015 14:17

<Devil's advocate mode on>

How about only allowing wets on mixed grids?
It would save a lot of faffing at meetings where we don't need wets

<Devil's advocate mode off>


Will quietly go with the flow.

bally71 28-Oct-2015 17:00

Can I raise another point ..

What about tyre warmers (not for wets obvs)

But if we are on a mixed grid and half are going into the corner with steaming hot rubber and half with ice cold blocks ...

Is that not going to be cause for concern?

just sayin (expecting to be shot down in flames)

I'd rather do without myself

skidlids 28-Oct-2015 20:22

Wasn't a concern at Castle Combe a couple of months ago when out mixing it with the Minitwins and the Open 500s

chris.p 28-Oct-2015 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by bally71
Can I raise another point ..

What about tyre warmers (not for wets obvs)

But if we are on a mixed grid and half are going into the corner with steaming hot rubber and half with ice cold blocks ...

Is that not going to be cause for concern?

just sayin (expecting to be shot down in flames)

I'd rather do without myself




It's all in the mind, by the time you actualy get off the grid your tyres are hardly luke warm.

coppersaucepipe 28-Oct-2015 22:10

I've never run warmers and I like not needing electricity

paynep 31-Oct-2015 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris.p
It's all in the mind, by the time you actualy get off the grid your tyres are hardly luke warm.


...but they are warmer than stone cold..... :ninja:

In my mind that's better.......

Trumpet 01-Nov-2015 00:25

Tyres
 
Here's another thought; if we do run wets that means that we wouldn't have to run an all weather tyre (road style) in the dry, so does that open up the possibility of a more track or race style control tyre?
Of course also hoping we get another good sponsorship deal from the tyre manufacturer :)

milesaway 01-Nov-2015 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet
Here's another thought; if we do run wets that means that we wouldn't have to run an all weather tyre (road style) in the dry, so does that open up the possibility of a more track or race style control tyre?
Of course also hoping we get another good sponsorship deal from the tyre manufacturer :)


a true race tyre would need warmers i beleive and not warm as quickly without them as what we have had

Trumpet 01-Nov-2015 09:23

Was thinking of something more like Pirelli Super Corsa's or equivalent, but its a fair point, I understand the reasoning behind looking at going to wets, but I think we start to loose the essence of DD if we add warmers as well.

milesaway 01-Nov-2015 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumpet
Was thinking of something more like Pirelli Super Corsa's or equivalent, but its a fair point, I understand the reasoning behind looking at going to wets, but I think we start to loose the essence of DD if we add warmers as well.


totally agree- my patience with generators as good as it is with traffic wardens

Graeme 02-Nov-2015 10:22

Two pennies worth from a potential new rider. DD looks attractive to me because of the lack of faff - no swapping wheels, no tyre warmers, no generators, electric starter, etc (but understand the pressures of having to share with other series)

badgerpilot 04-Nov-2015 02:53

Very good idea by Coppersaucepipe but I think it'd only mean there would be a vastly reduced entry level until the Met Office announced it to be a rain free weekend.
Skids has made the point before, we need commited entry numbers so we get our own grid regardless of the conditions. It's almost impossible to barter with a club when you've no idea who's going to turn up and support you.
Could we do a poll to gauge an idea how many people will be lining up at how many rounds? Maybe if we get good grids at say 6 rounds, NG might return the favour by giving us our own grids when the numbers are a tad low.

skidlids 04-Nov-2015 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgerpilot

Could we do a poll to gauge an idea how many people will be lining up at how many rounds? Maybe if we get good grids at say 6 rounds, NG might return the favour by giving us our own grids when the numbers are a tad low.


Out of the Riders that took part in the 2015 season across both classes

6 took part in all 8 rounds
2 more took part in 7 rounds
4 more took part in a total of 6 rounds
6 more took part in 5 rounds
and another 3 took part in 4 rounds.
Probably explains why the average grid size was 20 riders with as little as 15 at Pembrey and a maximum of 25 at Snetterton

Trumpet 04-Nov-2015 23:07

Whilst I understand that prospective clubs will look at 2015 race numbers, I think that the average numbers for each race meeting for this year were going to be down the moment that Hottrax put out the calendar, there were simply too many races for most people to be able to attend all of them (hence our decision to be able to drop a high number of races).
Then with the demise of Hottrax, many of us had committed to dates for other things (Holidays etc) and were unable to attend some of the rescheduled race meetings.
However, from what I can make out with the number of people already talking about coming into DD for 2016, the number of existing racers saying they will be racing next year, and what looks like a much more reasonable race calendar, I think that the grid size for 2016 could be quite healthy.
As previously mentioned by several people it would help the committee to have some numbers to work with, so in an effort to help I am happy to commit to saying that based on an 8 race calendar it is my intention to attend all 8 rounds.

bally71 05-Nov-2015 15:28

I'm desperate to get back on track. .. I'm budgeting for 6 rounds .. might squeeze 7

Will most likely avoid the first round at brands and do the rest


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