Ducati Sporting Club UK > DesmoDue Race Series > DesmoDue - General Questions and Chat > New regs for 2010

[Chris Wood]

Pirelli seem to be saying it, i'd hope they know something about tyres???

Perhaps take your issue up with them directly?

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by Chris Wood

Pirelli seem to be saying it, i'd hope they know something about tyres???

Perhaps take your issue up with them directly?

That is the question Pirelli seem to be saying it, no proof.

ZR's were allowed and good enough in 2006 what has changed??

[Ray]

http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/sh...highlight=poll

Just in case there are some old chestnuts in that thread that need a reheat.

The Supermono classes I'm aware of use wets and drys.

The current DD tyre is a compromise for both wet and dry conditions.

Not the best for dry, not the best for wet, not the cheapest, not the most expensive.

The majority of DD competitors appeared to want to use Pirelli less 6 months ago, has that really changed?

Ray

[ChrisBushell]

Originally Posted by Ghost

I don't accept that as a valid argument, 125 Hondas and the supermono class, carry less mass than ours, same to not much hp difference.

You cannot sit there and justifiably say that a 748/749/999 road bike will work a tyre harder on the road than a Desmo on the track, as that is a total nonsence.

You made the point a supplier can get in 48 hours. Common used tyres i.e ZR Rossos would be in stock, even at mediocre suppliers

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am afraid that your argument is flawed.

Both of the series that you mention do not run a road based control tyre. I understand they have the option to run wets so their tyre performance in colder/wet conditions is not an issue.

I have spoken to the Pirelli representative this morning and they have confirmed that the reason for the recommendation of the use of the HR rated tyre is to do with cold/wet weather running. In cold/wet weather with lower track temperatures an HR rated tyre will run at operating temperature apreciably more quickly than a ZR rated tyre, given the weight and performance of the bikes to which they are fitted - equally they will cope with dry hot conditions without any problems.

The suggestion is that an HR tyre will get to proper operating temperature in a couple of laps max - you can push it from the race start - on a ZR tyre you might need 2-3 racing laps to get them up to temperature on a cold/wet day and that has safety implications, after all you are racing from the moment the lights go out - who would wait for their tyres to get up to temperature?

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by ChrisBushell

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am afraid that your argument is flawed.

Both of the series that you mention do not run a road based control tyre. I understand they have the option to run wets so their tyre performance in colder/wet conditions is not an issue.

I have spoken to the Pirelli representative this morning and they have confirmed that the reason for the recommendation of the use of the HR rated tyre is to do with cold/wet weather running. In cold/wet weather with lower track temperatures an HR rated tyre will run at operating temperature apreciably more quickly than a ZR rated tyre, given the weight and performance of the bikes to which they are fitted - equally they will cope with dry hot conditions without any problems.

The suggestion is that an HR tyre will get to proper operating temperature in a couple of laps max - you can push it from the race start - on a ZR tyre you might need 2-3 racing laps to get them up to temperature on a cold/wet day and that has safety implications, after all you are racing from the moment the lights go out - who would wait for their tyres to get up to temperature?

Thanks for the explanation, its no use to me saying you must do this, or that, without an explanation. But still the question as to why they were allowed in the first 2 seasons, then vetoed what happened/or grounds for the change.

[skidlids]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Thanks for the explanation, its no use to me saying you must do this, or that, without an explanation. But still the question as to why they were allowed in the first 2 seasons, then vetoed what happened/or grounds for the change.

possibly because when the tyre manufacturers were first approached about DD there was no Class B, and the rules allowed for tuned 675cc machines which may have misled them into believing the bikes would be more powerful than they actually are. Not sure what GS's 620 with the Baines 675 kit made in the way of Horsepower.

Since we have changed to H rated tyres after the 2006 season the Class B lap records have certainly improved in some cases to the tune of 2 seconds.

My belief is that this is in part due to the quicker warm up of the H rated tyre over the Z rated ones. Which in turn allows the riders to get up to speed earlier in the race and have more time left before the chequred flag to improve their times.
I suspect this mainly applies the newer the tyre is and after a period of use and several heat cycles this advantage drops away.

There are probably a few out there that try and exploit this possibility and fit new tyres at a greater rate than many of the others.

A Bit of DD History regarding tyres

From a very early 2005 Rule Book 23/1/05

1.6.7 Tyres

This section is still To Be Advised. There are several options currently being considered including Control tyres, tyre warmers and wets.

Following the meeting of DD registered entrants after the AGM held 12th Feb 2005 this announcement was made

Tyres

After much investigation and deliberation, it was agreed by the entrants that a single moulded tread road tyre should be used, that wets & warmers would not be allowed in this first year of the series.

Accordingly the decision was taken that the Pirelli Diablo would be the only tyre used by entrants this year. At present the cost to entrants will be £120 + VAT per pair, we are working on a further discount and hope to have further news at the end of the month. At the same time we will confirm where you order them from.

In addition we are making arrangements for the support and supply of tyres at all of the New Era meetings with Pirelli. Following a meeting on the 24th of February, we hope to be able to announce further goodies that will be made available.

It was also agreed at the meeting after the AGM that in the event that the majority of entrants found that they wished to be allowed to use a full wet tyre, after the initial races, then the way would be open for a petition to be put to the committee to allow their use in the 1st year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Later on it was announced that Pirelli as part of there sponsorship would donate a pair of tyres at each meeting to be awarded as prizes

----------------------------------------------------------------

Then in 2006 we had this option

Ok Folks,

The news that you have all been waiting for regarding tyres this year! The negotiations have been protracted, but we think will serve the whole grid well this year and the price is very competitive. We are recommending this arrangement to the riders.

What do you need to do to have a say? Just send a simple Tyres Yes or No to Desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com no later than 12.00 on Sunday the 5th of March and a simple majority will decide. We will announce the result on Sunday afternoon.

Desmo Due Tyres 2006

As most of you will be aware we have been in negotiation with Pirelli regarding sponsorship of tyres for the series, owing primarily to budgetary reductions Pirelli are not going to supply us with tyres as prizes for 2006.

However, they have offered support for the series through Holbeech Tyres, who attend all New Era Meetings.

What does this mean for the series:

1) We will get price support from Pirelli for the tyres we buy. The price is quoted at £135.00 inc VAT fitted. These are for a 120/60-70 front and 160 rear.

2) Prizes in the form of merchandising (caps, fleeces, polo and t-shirts, etc) will be provided.

3) Pirelli will provide UK WSB tickets for this years races at Brands and Silverstone. Numbers are still to be confirmed, but it is hoped they will allow access to the paddock and possibly Pirelli hospitality.

Ok what does that mean for the series:

All bikes will be required to carry Pirelli and Holbeech tyres stickers on their machines. These will be provided.

1) All tyres used in the series this year will be stamped by Holbeech tyres. Anyone found using tyres without these markings will loose their points.

2) At Cadwell Park on the 25th/26th March, each machine will be required to be taken to Holbeech tyres truck; the tyres fitted to the machine and one spare pair (if already owned) will be marked by them.

3) Any subsequent tyres will need to be purchased from Holbeech tyres. These will be marked at time of sale. You can either have them fitted at the track or sent through by post and fitted locally.

Given that we have 62 bikes on the two grids, it will be necessary for you to phone Holbeech on 01406-423611, 10 days before any race meeting, if you want to have them put tyres on the truck for you. This is particularly true before Brands Hatch (for Assen) and at Castle Combe/Oulton, when it is expected that most of the grid will be looking to have new tyres fitted (please see below).

They will carry a number of sets to meet immediate requirements at each meeting

------------------------------------------------------------------
The above option WAS taken up that year AS voted for by the RIDERS.
I was on the RC in 2006 as the Class B rider’s rep so I got to see more of the information than most other riders

[WeeJohnyB]

The never-ending saga that is tyres in DD

ok, I know some of you hate it when people who don't even race or race in DD stick their size 10's into the arguement, (size 8 in my case), but I was there at that first meeting Skids mentions above. I may be wrong, but I think Skids and I were the only two who raced in DSC at the time, (I'm sure there were others who used to race), but although I was never intending to enter (it was designed for newbies), I was asked to act as an advisor on some of the more practical aspects.

Tyres got a lot of airtime back at that meeting and a lot of emotional arguements ensued. I say emotional, as the judgements made were subjective, not objective. Nobody in the room had raced. Nobody had raced on that tyre. I was suggesting DD copied the race formula I was experienced with in the CB500's who used Bridgestone road tyres. These tyres were proven to work, were cheap, already available through Holbeach by the van-load and still to this day produce laptimes for a 50bhp machine with no suspension other than a bedspring of 1.46 around Cadwell (think it might be 1.45 now). The reason pirelli was chosen was IMHO purely because people used the brand on their road Ducati's (not that tyre mind you) and the sexy link of the brands - Bridgestone was never a sexy brand.

The word safety is raised above and has been many times before and no doubt will be again. How can you tell me that it is 'safe' to ask a rider to ride to their limit and beyond in race conditions on a road tyre on a cold and wet March morning with no tyre warmers. Any racer will tell you it's madness, most wouldn't go out under such circumstances. In my first year in CB5's, wets were not allowed, but warmers were. I am by comparison to some of my lunatic competitors a fairly smooth rider, so I actually enjoyed the wet races on dry tyres as I knew I could beat others I normally wouldn't and that some of them would fall off. I have watched DD'ers tip toe around a corner in the wet and sat at The Hairpin and the Mountain at Cadwell watching good riders fall off and take others out with them.

What price 'cheap' racing when your bike is in bits, the guy next to you in the paddock's season is over because you took him out and you are sitting in a hospital bed - all for the cost of a set of warmers or wets.

Wets last ages, you can get a couple of seasons out of them if used correctly. They are great fun, they make the racing better and safer and it's great to put your knee down in puddles. It's exciting to be watching the conditions and making the decision to change tyres right at the last minute and getting down to the holding area to see who has chosen what tyre - all part of racing, same as the big boys do.

If you want a cheap option, then leave class B as it is, but class A has moved on since the series began and is attracting racers to the series who are not 'Ducati' people and certainly not novices. For Class A I would go for full wets, warmers and ANY treaded tyre make.

As for cost, I would suggest most of the Class A boys and girls already have front and rear stands, they probably have warmers for their other track bikes and a set of wets will cost a little over a couple of hundred quid and last them at least a full season, probably more.

WeeJohnyB
PS - I suggested 748 racing ages ago - go for a 748 AND 749 series (same grid but choice of bike), stock bikes NO CHANGES except rear sets and race can - simples innit, no engine mods, no suspension mods, no arguements, no huge complex rule books, just take the mirrors off and race.

[antonye]

Originally Posted by WeeJohnyB

PS - I suggested 748 racing ages ago - go for a 748 AND 749 series (same grid but choice of bike), stock bikes NO CHANGES except rear sets and race can - simples innit, no engine mods, no suspension mods, no arguements, no huge complex rule books, just take the mirrors off and race.

Woohoo! Anyone got an ex-BSS 749RS for sale?

[Ghost]

Brilliant well constructed criticism, from someone who knows.
Not keen on leaving class B as is tho' Matt Traynor is on a mission to win a class A race with a B bike, its possibly on the cards too.

[skidlids]

Originally Posted by WeeJohnyB

It's exciting to be watching the conditions and making the decision to change tyres right at the last minute and getting down to the holding area to see who has chosen what tyre - all part of racing, same as the big boys do.

Reminds me of the last crash I had in SoT caused by somebody trying to race on a damp track getting wetter by the minute on dry tyres, that hurt, caused damage to my bike that was on inters and didn't feel that safe to me

Originally Posted by WeeJohnyB

If you want a cheap option, then leave class B as it is, but class A has moved on since the series began and is attracting racers to the series who are not 'Ducati' people and certainly not novices. For Class A I would go for full wets, warmers and ANY treaded tyre make.

I can't remember sending that email yet, although it is already written, have you been hacking my PC

Originally Posted by WeeJohnyB

PS - I suggested 748 racing ages ago - go for a 748 AND 749 series (same grid but choice of bike), stock bikes NO CHANGES except rear sets and race can - simples innit, no engine mods, no suspension mods, no arguements, no huge complex rule books, just take the mirrors off and race.

Sold my 748 that I last raced in a SoT race at Silverstone at the end of 2004 so I could get myself a DD bike
Am I going around in circles