Ducati Sporting Club UK > DesmoDue Race Series > DesmoDue - General Questions and Chat > Just for discussion (rain riders ?).

[Spjallen]

Some people were asking about if you need warmers on wets. Well wet tyres operate best around 40 degrees. If you can't regulate your warmers to that (most tyre warmers are set to eighty) then you are heating the tyres up too much. You would be able to feel the difference in grip as the extra and unrequired heat dissipates from the tyre and they settle around the operating temp - 40 degrees - in the first few laps. This change in grip level can fool you into thinking you have more than you do and again as the temp drops you won't be able to do what you could initally when they came off the warmers.
In a nutshell, yes you do, but they will hear up very quickly without.

[brummydave]

i personally really dont think wets is our answer,maybe race control could be more aware of our tyre abilities in extreme conditions .Its not a blame thing,and like miles says and dallas does its your option and your right hand.

[Ghost]

Originally Posted by brummydave

i personally really dont think wets is our answer,maybe race control could be more aware of our tyre abilities in extreme conditions .Its not a blame thing,and like miles says and dallas does its your option and your right hand.

+1 to that BD, I would think someone from Dunlop also could contribute to this by saying what is or isn't reasonable to race in.

[Spjallen]

Just stick with the series how it is. Listen the the experienced DD riders like Kev and Ghost. Miles and the Pieman have it spot on.

[skidlids]

I thought Miles post was a good take on the situation

I thought allowing people to drop rounds was a good way of allowing them to opt out or pull out of some wet races, but from last years rider meeting and form filling that wasn't wanted for this season.

Gusting winds as we had at Anglesey doesn't help in the wet especially if you have flat sided fairings as even on a moderte amount of lean the wind can catch the fairing lifting some of the weight off the bike and off of the tyres making it easier for the tyres to break away especially the rear under power.

Now for a few statistics from Anglesey
'
In our final race on sunday the one in where the Red Flag was shown following Matt's crash the fastest lap was set by Matt at 2m 09s some 23s slower than his recorded best dry lap of the weekend.
The following race in simialr conditions had Craig out on his 996 using wets and warmers his best lap was a 2m 12s lap some 29s slower than his best recoreded dry lap of the weekend.

As the rebuild of my 600SS engine came to a halt earlier due to lack of O-rings to go between the barrells and the crankcases I thought I would have a look at some of the results from Anglesey.

Not yet complete as I haven't checked all the races for the conditions they were held in. And as with statistics they don't paint the whole picture, for example in the final DD race although 18% didn't get to the red flag only Matt was a faller.
But by far our worst race as afr as non finishers goes was the original running of race 1 in the dry. Also note DD had a higher number of entrants to start with so provides a higher chance of producing non finishers.
Worst statisic of the day was the Michelin Power cup 1000 with less than 2/3rds of the field finishing and on the whole we faired better than the Michelin power cup 600 riders over the 3 races and were on Par with the grid Craig was on


Desmo Due (started with a grid of 30)

race 1 - dry almost 77% of the starting grid survived
race 1 - (The rerun) Wet 92% of the starting grid finished
race 2 - Damp - 88% Finished
race 3 - Wet almost 82% of the starters were classed as runners at the Red Flag
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Superbike/Supercup/Class1C/etc (started with a grid of 12)

Race 1 - Dry 75% of the starters finished
Race 2 - Dry(ish) almost 82% finished
Race 3 - Wet 91% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Michelin Power Cup 600 (started with a grid of 22)

Race 1 - 77% finished
Race 2 - 76% finished
Race 3 - Wet 81% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Michelin Power cup 1000 (started with a grid of 10)

Race 1 - 100% finished
Race 2 - 89% finished
Race 3 - Wet 62.5% finished

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Moto Grande 600 (started with a grid of 24)

Race 1 - 84% finished
Race 2 - 91% finished
Race 3 - 84% finished
Race 4 - 94% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Moto Grande 1000 (started with a grid of 24)

Race 1 - 87% finished
Race 2 - 81% finished
Race 3 - 95% finished
Race 4 - 94% finished

[Gbyte666]

Intresting stats.
Just shows it's near enough the same for all classes dry/wet.

Craig

[PDL]

Wets only make laps quicker for those who are used to using them, confident in them and with experience of when to use them. Last season I finished ahead of 100 bhp bikes in a rookie race in the wet on my 600 ss. Using wets is a right old faff if you don't have a third set of wheels with inters that would mean six sets of tyres to cover punctures making it very expensive. DD already has a level playing field with a control bike and a road tyre. You don't need wets, don't brake something that doesn't need fixing. You don't need warmers on wets but this then relies on you getting a good warm up lap and if you cant see due to rain you can't get the heat into wets which then adds no value. There is an theory that says slicks are the best wet tyre if you can keep the heat in and don't gas it leant over. Introducing wets would be a bad decision, I run em in club racing because I have to but I've been out in the damp this season and matched my wet time on power one race tyres. Now that doesn't add up does it.

[Jolley]

Originally Posted by Ghost

Racing in the wet is ok, but its the amount of standing water. If rain is too bad in F1 & Motogp the start is delayed. Those conditions for the last race in my opinion warranted an official to intervene and say lets give it a period of time to ease.

Standing water can be a problem, but whenever I have encountered it in a race I have backed off (Snett in 2011 for example). A Hottrax decision about how much is too much standing water is the only way forward. I think they have to make this call on their own.

Originally Posted by milesaway

With the tyres we run that may not be that much, but they seem fairly predictable and the speed we can reach is considerably less. Therefore when we find that limit we will be going much slower, have more chance of catching it and hopefully hurt less if we loose it.

This was exactly my point when this was discussed last year. Less grip = less speed = more time to react = better to build the skills to learn to ride in the wet (plus, any accident is at a much lower speed). Depending on how much standing water Matt hit, it could still have happened on wets, but his injuries could have been even worse

Dave, back on the original point, I don't think riders reps would help. I would certainly have volunteered myself, and I can't think of many conditions (other than snow and ice) that I wouldn't go and race in. In my eyes it was always an opportunity to level the field to my slower bike.

As for the "only another set of wheels/tyres" comments: I raced from an estate car with a trailer (it was the cheapest option for me, and if I had had to buy a van I may not have raced). Anyway, my point being that I already took bike, tools, Gazeebo, spares (including a set of wheels/tyres so I could practice on an old set and put new ones on for qually/race), food, riding gear, fuel and other bits and pieces. I (by that I mean my suspension and space!) simply couldn't have coped with "just another" set of wheels/tyres..... as it was, I didn't take spare fairings because of space.

As a novice I struggled enough with learning how my bike behaved, and with the rules as they are I could just go out in the wet and expect the same, but less... it is simple as it should be. We are all capable of getting our bikes around a race distance in one piece (wet or dry), it just comes down to how comfortable you are to push. Generally people are less comfortable in the wet, so they push less, and there are generally about the same number of finishers wet or dry. It is a choice to go out, and it is a choice to push. I don't think we can blame Hottrax for how much we want to push. However, I personally don't think Hottrax should allow you out if there is a lot of standing water, because this is particularly difficult to deal with.

In short - No wets, but maybe raise the issue with standing water with hottrax.

[ells]

Originally Posted by Jolley

In short - No wets, but maybe raise the issue with standing water with hottrax.

+1 on what Ron said. There are going to be at some point conditions where the majority of riders consider it dangerous. This is when we need a way to nudge the organisers and say - this aint right.

Mark.

[brummydave]

yaay,another one that has been there and can see through the fuzz of a conveluted argument,i suppose if we focus in the general direction of no wets but maybe call or void the race race in exceptional circumstances then we are going in the right direction.However the track did seem to flood in rather a short period at anglsey,maybe this is due to the coastal location.