Ducati Sporting Club UK > Sport > Trackdays & Race Schools > CSS Instructor Examination Day

[andyb]

Originally posted by antonye
I think that's actually part of the point Andy.

If you read the CSS books, you'll see that Keith Code's whole idea was to break "riding a motorcycle, fast" down into the main elements which made you able to do it.

The courses ensure that you are doing all of the basics right first, before moving you on to the more advanced stuff - kind of like making sure that your foundations are fine before building higher.

Keith Code thinks that this is just as important as the more advanced stuff because, after all, if you don't know why you counter steer then how can they effectively teach you advanced techniques in it?

The flippant reply is ....nothing to do with making money then......

I bet shakey or either troy couldnt tell you why they counter steer..........and it hasnt hindered their progress.

I, on the other hand could tell you, and have done an amount of both theory and practical training most would dream about doing............but it doesnt even begin to put me anywhere near them, or probably an average club racer.

Dont get me wrong. i know it would be an interesting experience, (the training, not just TP ) It just seems the pace of learning is directed at 1 level. There should be a "higher potential" entrance exam, that could condence the training.

In my line of work there is nothing worse than during training repeating and repeating a particular skill just for trainings sake!

[antonye]

Originally posted by andyb
In my line of work there is nothing worse than during training repeating and repeating a particular skill just for trainings sake!

But is it though?

Training is all about being familiar with a particular thing, be it body position and muscle control, a feedback feeling or a thought pattern.

The more you repeat the exercise, the more your body learns to adjust / cope / repeat that exercise and you become better at it through familiarity.

The familiarity helps you to recognise when things are not right, and make the minute adjustment that is required to correct yourself and get it right.

Of all people, you should know that training makes you better Andy, otherwise how can you label yourself as "creme de la creme" and argue that it's ok for you to break the speed limits in response to an emergency situation, rather than a kid out on his Gixxer Thou for the first time doing the same speeds but getting his collar felt?

Besides, road riding, track riding and racing are three *very* different animals, and skill in one does not automatically equate to skill in another, as so many of us have found out trying to make the transition from trackdayer to racer!

[fil2]

Originally posted by CK
Weeksy - you dont HAVE to be a god at your chosen subject - just have the thorough knowledge to be able to impart to others the right way to do this.

I might have competed horses to International level (tho mid range there) but had the ability to be able to instruct others to above my own personal ability.

I was able to help a dear mate in axe murderers cut his lap times by 1.2/1.3 seconds 3 years ago by pointing out a couple of minor things to him - which he took on board & applied next time out - and I dont race or do track days - but I do watch.

TP - lessons for me please next time you get a road bike out mate!

1.2/1.3 seconds per lap improvement..!!! can you please watch me then CK and point out the error of my ways..! as i could certainly benifit from that improvement without the cost of any courses.....niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice....... ...............

i can pay in a nice bottle of plonk.?

Phil

[andyb]

Originally posted by antonye

But is it though?

Training is all about being familiar with a particular thing, be it body position and muscle control, a feedback feeling or a thought pattern.

The more you repeat the exercise, the more your body learns to adjust / cope / repeat that exercise and you become better at it through familiarity.

The familiarity helps you to recognise when things are not right, and make the minute adjustment that is required to correct yourself and get it right.

Of all people, you should know that training makes you better Andy, otherwise how can you label yourself as "creme de la creme" and argue that it's ok for you to break the speed limits in response to an emergency situation, rather than a kid out on his Gixxer Thou for the first time doing the same speeds but getting his collar felt?

Besides, road riding, track riding and racing are three *very* different animals, and skill in one does not automatically equate to skill in another, as so many of us have found out trying to make the transition from trackdayer to racer!

i tend to agree on the repetition thing and muscle memory, but what im trying to say is i would get it........but then we would keep going and going....boring! People learn at different speeds and this quite rightly appears to do it at the one speed, which equates to me feeling i wouldnt get value for money?

On the comment that road riding v track riding issue i totally agree! they are different, for example a line or route shape through a corner, although the plan remains similar with a start and finish point.

Interestingly there is a thread somewhere where Andy disagreed with me on this............

[antonye]

Originally posted by andyb

i tend to agree on the repetition thing and muscle memory, but what im trying to say is i would get it........but then we would keep going and going....boring! People learn at different speeds and this quite rightly appears to do it at the one speed, which equates to me feeling i wouldnt get value for money?

Maybe you'd pick it up straight away, maybe not. But bear in mind that it's not just about teaching you the basics but also about them assessing your ability to learn (and understand!) to tailor the groups accordingly.

If you've obviously understood the basic requirements and you can show that you will hit these 100% of the time, then there's no reason you can't move on to the next drill.

While it may seem like slow learning from the outside, the school obviously wants to ensure that you are 100% confident with each level before moving up.

Just remember that he who goes in with a closed mind will never learn anything...

[domski]

I'd be more than happy to have TP teach me.

I don't care if he's been riding 3 days or 10 years - it's ME that has to apply what he's saying to my riding.

If he's passed the exams then he's as good as anyone else. That's why they have exams!!

Was Keith Code faster than Wayne Rainey? Andy Ibbot faster than Tom Luthi?

TP aint as fast as me at the moment, but I bet he knows how to go faster.

Bastid!

[CK]

Originally posted by fil2

1.2/1.3 seconds per lap improvement..!!! can you please watch me then CK and point out the error of my ways..! as i could certainly benifit from that improvement without the cost of any courses.....niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice....... ...............

i can pay in a nice bottle of plonk.?

Phil

a racing line is a racing line mate

just applied equestian line to motorbike that day! (yeah quit the jokes - I have done racing my self too - but the likes of 1 hp in S/Chasing & hurdles - when I was verrry young

2 bends, one track, application on approach to one - and exit on the other. Moved over a tad, smoother entry = better line - bobs was the aunties fingy

[chicken]

The best in their field in any given discipline often cannot explain what they are doing because it comes to them naturally. And that is why they can't self-coach.

Is it a "time-served" thing then to be qualified to teach? How do you measure this? Is it time on track? Time on a bike? Time spent thinking about the subject? Even if you can answer these questions, you can't assess the quality of the time spent. Many "experienced" riders that have done level 1 CSS come away saying how much they have learnt - which proves my point.

At the end of the day, the point of any training is to improve the skills of the trainee, not the trainer. I (like several people here) would be happy for TP to teach me to ride better because I know that as well as the technical skills (as evidenced by his passing the course) he also has the communication skills to do it (as evidenced by his ramblings in the pub).

Remember that TP will be teaching a lot of people who don't frequent these boards and won't know him. I will bet a significant amount of money that the majority will comment on how good the instruction was and how enjoyable the day was.

[weeksy2]

for me it's not about how quick or how slow an instructor is

it's about how much knowledge they have.

and whilst me they may spot on with CSS knowledge... once outside of that.... though, a question comes up that requires a little more (or a LOT more) knowledge of 'why is the bike doing this' or 'why when i move this does that happen' ?

Can questions like that be answered without a lot of experience ?

Can the CSS instructors (newbies) answer questions outside of CSS teachings ? or just create robots ?

[chicken]

Steve, stop it.

Whether you are explicit or not, you are unjustly slighting the reputation of a friend of mine.

Your threads are often antagonistic, which is fine by me if they are constructive but this particular one is not.