Ducati Sporting Club UK > Sport > Trackdays & Race Schools > California Superbike School

[bradders]

Originally Posted by Chris 77

Please dont expect TP to help you out just because he's a mate as it will cause him much grief from management.Rules is rules.

youre joking, right?? From what I understand TP spent his hard eraned on becoming an instructor, why cabnt he share that with thise he chooses either in terms of 'favours retruned/swapped' or just coz he's a mate??

Originally Posted by bradders

youre joking, right?? From what I understand TP spent his hard eraned on becoming an instructor, why cabnt he share that with thise he chooses either in terms of 'favours retruned/swapped' or just coz he's a mate??

What TP did in getting qualified and any costs he incurred are between him and the CSS, he will no doubt have Rules of Engagement with the school restricting how he distributes the knowledge he has gained, and don't for a secon think that the CSS have turned a profit in training him.

Its standard business practice as the IPR's of the training techniques belong to the school ...

I agree with Chris77 on this i'm afraid,

[TP]

I've been thinking about this a lot today. I'd like to make it perfectly clear at this point that I had always fully intended on speaking to the school prior to the DSC track days at Cadwell, where I'm instructing, to determine exactly what the boundaries are between coaching as an employed professional riding coach on a school day for the paying public and volunteering to instruct on a club track day to help club members enjoy themselves. I sincerely hope that none of you think I was naive enough to think that I could just hand over the knowledge that a CSS paying student gets to a DSC club member attending a DSC track day. Clearly this is reserved for school attendee's or you completely hit the floor on the value proposition and the school goes down the toilet. Hardly the goal of any business - no matter how benevolent their objectives are. If the school can't afford to run no-one benefits.

The commercial relationship between me and the CSS deserves the same respect as any other employee/employer relationship. More importantly it is also bound by the same intellectual property rules (some of you may not be familiar with Dibble's reference to IPR's - Intellectual Property Rights). The technology that the CSS teach is intellectual property in just the same fashion as Microsoft don't just hand over the source code to their programs/operating systems for free as it is their business - their IP. It is a legally recognisable asset belonging to the organisation, NOT the individual (I hope this clarifies things Bradders). For example, I'm an IT Consultant in my other mundane life .... any technology design/project plan I do for my employer is usually covered by an agreement that allows my employer to retain the Intellectual Property rights to the work I've performed, or if they don't have that clause in there - silly them! Even to the extent that the 100+ page design documents that I spend an awful long time working on the minutia for are actually owned by my employer - not me. I could be held legally culpable for passing these on without consent.

However, and again for the record, I personally paid to do all four levels of the school training as a student long before there was any whiff of me being invited to trial as a coach and potentially join the school. Purely from that I would hope you can see that I value and believe in what the school teaches. Dibble is right in that the school absolutely does not profit from the training of their coaches - each party wears their own costs/risk. The ONLY reason I mention this is because I think it's an excellent indicator of why the CSS riding coaches work for the school - it's not for money! Every coach I've discussed this with so far coach because they like helping people and seeing them improve.

I like helping people. In Australia I used to teach IT at a TAFE college and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing my students change their lives and get more financial control. One of my students in particular stands out - he was a truck driver who only knew how to turn his PC on and check his mail when he joined my course. And by the way, for him to be able to pay the TAFE to do my course on his salary was a big commitment for him. Through my help, and his herculean effort, he was able to quit his job driving a truck and get a job in IT. He sent me a bunch of flowers when he got his first job! Bloody poof!



Please don't gloss over my reference to how much effort he put in to achieve his goals.

I hope that clears things up a bit. I fully intend on giving the best value I can to anyone who asks for my help in any situation - let alone the upcoming DSC track days. I just hope that each individual who asks for my help recognises that I have responsibilities to others as well.

Have a good night, I'm off to bed

See y'all at Castle Combe later today hopefully - depending on what my sons want to do!

Laters.

Discover the art

[twpd]

I'm finding it hard to hold my tongue here having resolved to say nothing more in this thread but.......

Since when did the techniques of riding fast become intelectual property of an individual or an organisation? A book or a video etc can have copyright (and I am sure that CSS training materials have this) but, the techniques of riding? What nonsense! You cannot equate riding technique to source code. You can attach copyright to source code (although that is debatable in some circles) but, you cannot copyright or apply the principles of intellectual property to riding fast. If you could can you imagine the sheer chaos it would cause? We'd have individuals and organisation copyrighting everything from potato peeling to learning how to adjust your chain!

Can you imagine TP asking anyone who is quicker than him how they go faster around a corner? "Sorry old boy, that's my i/p and you have to pay for that". Let's extend this further - if this line of thinking was to be followed further then one would have to assume that it would not be permissible for a student to relate the knowledge and techniques he/she learnt with CSS to a third party. Moving on from that again, it would be akin to a normal school of education applying the principles of i/p to Kirchoff's Law!

I would love to see that stand up in a court cos it wouldn't.

For sure there is a boundary where the undertaking certain types work in one's spare time away from the principle business of the employer becomes a conflict of interests wrt the employer (most contracts of employment have terms dealing with this). It would be reasonable for CSS to expect TP not to teach CSS techniques outside of the school but, let's not confuse the knowledge of riding fast with "technology" that can protected a la i/p.

By the way, in case anyone is wondering, I deal with i/p and copyright on a daily basis in contract law in my professional capacity. In a previous life to this I used to be a technical trainer for a large US corporation - teaching aspects of device manufacturing to engineers from the likes of Intel and AMD. Again, we could copyright training materials, documents, processes/procedures etc relating to a particular aspect of technology but, we could not apply this to the knowledge of the general principles of device fabrication.

[TP]

Originally Posted by twpd

....
For sure there is a boundary where the undertaking certain types work in one's spare time away from the principle business of the employer becomes a conflict of interests wrt the employer (most contracts of employment have terms dealing with this). It would be reasonable for CSS to expect TP not to teach CSS techniques outside of the school but, let's not confuse the knowledge of riding fast with "technology" that can protected a la i/p. ....

Hopefully we can save a bit of time by just pointing out that we have a terminology confusion moment here. 'Technology' - it's simply the term the school uses to refer to the CSS techniques etc. No-one is suggesting that the CSS is trying to copyright the mechanics of being able to operate a motorcycle.



I hope that clears that up.

Now, I have nothing personal to gain from trying to help people on here and potential for grief with my employer.

I've put a lot of time and thought into constructing replies on this thread in a manner that I think will help people understand the school and whether it's for them or not. I think this thread has moved well beyond that now so I shall 'cease and desist'.

I'll help anyone who genuinely wants my help, within the constraints of my professional responsibilities, but I don't think I have anything left to offer this thread.

If anyone wants some help/information on the school etc from me, send me a PM or give me a call.

Have a nice day

[twpd]

Originally Posted by TP

No-one is suggesting that the CSS is trying to copyright the mechanics of being able to operate a motorcycle.

Quite. Nor was I suggesting that CSS were.

[Andy Ibbott]

What TP talks of here is the exclusivity agreement we have will all our coaches and that if they wish to operate at another track day, school, etc they have to have our permission. This is standard business practise. Why should we spend all our time and effort training him for him to go off and coach elsewhere?

We take the 26 years of research that Keith Code has done in Motorcycle Cornering discoveries and teaching techniques very seriously and work hard to protect that method and information from theft. We have, in the last 11 years in Europe sued people for ripping off what and how we teach, as well as for posting the books as PDFs, copies of the DVDs etc on the Internet.

I have a duty to protect CSS, not only for my livelihood but as a matter of professional honour.

I'm sure TP will give hints and pointers but this will be as far as he will be allowed to go. He is able to tell you what he sees, any issues that could be improved, but, he will be inviting you to attend the School to resolve these issues.
Much the same as I did for you at a very wet Mallory Park as couple of years ago and I have been invited to another DSC date and I will gladly do the same. Will I give you it all? No, of course not but I will give you an insight as to what can be achieved if you had the full package, not just a small hint. I have done the same recently for one of the MotoGP riders.

Andy

[twpd]

Originally Posted by Andy Ibbott

What TP talks of here is the exclusivity agreement we have will all our coaches and that if they wish to operate at another track day, school, etc they have to have our permission. This is standard business practise. Why should we spend all our time and effort training him for him to go off and coach elsewhere?

Precisely and that is what I was saying. There is no argument there. I was questioning the issue of i/p. You are talking about conflict of interest which I alluded to above in my previous post. Others including Tony brought up the issue of I/P which, is an entirely different kettle of fish altogether.

Originally Posted by Andy Ibbott

We take the 26 years of research that Keith Code has done in Motorcycle Cornering discoveries and teaching techniques very seriously and work hard to protect that method and information from theft. We have, in the last 11 years in Europe sued people for ripping off what and how we teach, as well as for posting the books as PDFs, copies of the DVDs etc on the Internet.

And did I not mention that? See above. I acknowledged that your materials were reasonably entitled to the protection afforded by copyright and the principles of i/p. Knowledge of how to ride fast is not.

I'm sure TP will give hints and pointers but this will be as far as he will be allowed to go. He is able to tell you what he sees, any issues that could be improved, but, he will be inviting you to attend the School to resolve these issues.

That is fair enough - I don't have any truck with that and I don't think anyone else would either.

I really do wish people would properly read what is written.

[bradders]

I understand the 'other track day company' argument, but fail to see how you can restrict someone from discussing/sharing info with a mate to help them ride better....so if a coach leaves CSS, is it expected that they will 'forget' the tuition?

its not like you've developed and patented something which no one else can do them selvles, you can read it all in a book, at best its a franchise from the yank guy

[900MAN]

Whilst understanding the need to 'protect' a business, I do find it odd that people with an implied 'knowledge' are 'duty' bound not to pass that knowledge on because of 'business' constraints.
The CSS will, IMHO, succeed or fail based on what peolple get from actually taking part in the day, I cant see that a few words from TP would make you say " TP just gave me some advice, therefore I know all that that the CSS can offer me, therefore I will not pay to go on their training"
At the end of the day advice will always be given but most of us choose to ignore it unles we pay for it.
Why do pshycologists exist if my last point isn't correct.
* Disclaimer: I've had a belly of vino so I might have got some pointswrong