Ducati Sporting Club UK > Model Specific - Discussion, Technical Problems and Help > Sport Touring: ST4 / ST3 / ST2 > VFR vs ST3 vs ST4S

[John W]

Hello all,

I'm toying with the idea of unloading my vfr800, and am tempted by an ST4S.

I'm after a few opinions from you people though, who might have also transferred from a vfr, or ridden both.

I should add that this is to be used mainly for touring 2 up, as I have a 996 for fun already

So, onto the questions:
1) performance, compared to the vfr, other tourers, or the 996.

2) ground clearance - will I be able to crank it over a decent way without grounding out ?

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)

7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

8) Abs or not abs ?

9) Anyone tried the ST3 and know how that compares ?

Sorry for so many questions. I'm just trying to get primed with all the right questions before I head for the dealers.

Thanks all,
John.
pss, it'll probably be a red one

[rockhopper]

I can answer some of your questions..

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

ST2, ST4 and ST4s all have the same headlights

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

Full panniers and passenger plus tankbag on my ST4 caused no problems. Front felt fine. The only time i could feel the weight was at lowish speeds but i could still do feet up U turns on full lock.


5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

Hmmm, about 170 when ridden in normal mode!!

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)


Had no problems with the seat but i think its a personal thing really.


7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

Rockers on the 4 valvers, cam belts on all of them, voltage regulators, clutches, warped front disks.


My experinces are with a 1998 ST2 and my current 1999 ST4. All the ST series share many parts though.

[Jools]

I've only ridden a VFR once on a test ride but from memory...

1) performance, compared to the vfr, other tourers, or the 996.

An ST2 is a pretty fair match for a VFR, making up for the loss of a few horses with low down grunt. The ST3 road tests reckon the engine is a peach, keeping all the low end of a two valver with better top end. I've ridden two ST4S's now and they will wipe the floor with a VFR, it's not described as a comfortable 996 for nothing

2) ground clearance - will I be able to crank it over a decent way without grounding out ?

Yes! Again, any ST will outperform a VFR by miles on the twisties. The magazines reckon the centrestand will ground out but I've only ever done that two up with full panniers when caught out on a really bumpy 90 degree bend. Otherwise I did 4 track days last year (inters) and never had a problem

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

It's not too bad, although the new ST3/ST4S is twice as big and a lot better apparently.

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

100Mph + No problem

5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

My ST does about 160-180, the 4S should be about the same

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)

Standard seat is fine. Sat on the new ST3/4S at the NEC and it was really comfortable. What with that, a higher screen to reduce windblast and adjustable handlebar risers for angle and height and it should be all day comfort

7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

Only as other 4 Valve dukes the ST3 is a bit new to know

8) Abs or not abs ?

Not IMHO, just a personal choise though

9) Anyone tried the ST3 and know how that compares ?

Trying to get a test ride, but the road tests are good, peachy engine keeps ahead of the 4S until 100 MPH + speeds, but that's mainly down to the 4S being very overgeared, a 14T front sprocket or a few teeth on the rear would see the 4S ahead

Ride magazine have got a road test this month which reckons the ST3 keeps with a Kwack 1200 in top gear roll on

[Jools]

I've only ridden a VFR once on a test ride but from memory...

1) performance, compared to the vfr, other tourers, or the 996.

An ST2 is a pretty fair match for a VFR, making up for the loss of a few horses with low down grunt. The ST3 road tests reckon the engine is a peach, keeping all the low end of a two valver with better top end. I've ridden two ST4S's now and they will wipe the floor with a VFR, it's not described as a comfortable 996 for nothing

2) ground clearance - will I be able to crank it over a decent way without grounding out ?

Yes! Again, any ST will outperform a VFR by miles on the twisties. The magazines reckon the centrestand will ground out but I've only ever done that two up with full panniers when caught out on a really bumpy 90 degree bend. Otherwise I did 4 track days last year (inters) and never had a problem

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

It's not too bad, although the new ST3/ST4S is twice as big and a lot better apparently.

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

100Mph + No problem

5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

My ST does about 160-180, the 4S should be about the same

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)

Standard seat is fine. Sat on the new ST3/4S at the NEC and it was really comfortable. What with that, a higher screen to reduce windblast and adjustable handlebar risers for angle and height and it should be all day comfort

7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

Only as other 4 Valve dukes the ST3 is a bit new to know

8) Abs or not abs ?

Not IMHO, just a personal choise though

9) Anyone tried the ST3 and know how that compares ?

Trying to get a test ride, but the road tests are good, peachy engine keeps ahead of the 4S until 100 MPH + speeds, but that's mainly down to the 4S being very overgeared, a 14T front sprocket or a few teeth on the rear would see the 4S ahead

Ride magazine have got a road test this month which reckons the ST3 keeps with a Kwack 1200 in top gear roll on

[John W]

Thanks guys.

Looks like I won't be disappointed performance wise. I just didn't want to get out of the vfr only to find the ST4S was not an equal or better match.

I guess I should have also realised the rocker problems would affect the ST4S too, since they share the same engine.

Is there a fix for the clutch and brake problems ?
Riding two-up with luggage through the alps tends to be pretty hard on both of these...

Does the non-abs 4S have linked brakes ??
I'm not really worried about abs or linked brakes, but thought I'd ask.

How does the luggage attach, as I can't see any mounting points. Does it need carriers or something to be bolted on ?
Is it made by Ducati or someone like Givi ?

Many thanks,
John.

[rockhopper]

The panniers are made by Nonfango and are custom made for the ST series. If you have a look at my site you will see some pic of my bike. There is a frame arrangement which i dont think looks too bad.

Are they still doing the non ABS ST4S? I dont think any of the range have linked brakes.

The clutch is the same as your 996! They don't last much more than 10,000 miles and as you know they are not quiet although the 4S ha alloy plates ( a mod i did to mine) which makes it much quieter.

The brake problem appears to only bother certain bikes. Mine has done 17000 miles and its fine but i know of a 51 plate ST4S that warped its disks.

I think of my bike as a comfy 916, the 4S is a comfy 996 and shares all its faults and quirks.

[PeteB]

John,

To add my 1p's worth, the ST4s now has the aluminium clutch plates so are considerably quieter than of old.

Never ground the ST2 out at Rockingham or in Italy on the passes.

ST2 seat was a bit painful (for a skinny git) after an hour but the 4s seat is slightly higher and seems more comfortable.

4s actually produces more power and torque than a 996 and haven't heard of any rocker problems with them.

With the TiN plated forks, adjustable Ohlins rear, a bit more ride-height and front compression it would take a real expert to find them wanting in the handling department, consumption? don't know, just fill it and ride it.

Brakes are excellent but can be improved further still with the 4 pad calipers.

Only downside? for me the p.xy little battery which I find needs to be kept on the optimate, then it starts first time.

There is a really good 4s forum with lots of info you will find helpful, not a link I'm afraid, but try www.st4s.com

We often make it over to Newlands or if you come to Popham you're welcome to try mine.

[John W]

Thanks again for the extra info.

Rockhopper, I'll check out your pics in a minute.

I've seen both abs and non abs bikes advertised, hence the question about that. Seems that the abs equipped bikes are pretty rare, or maybe as you say they are all abs now so don't bother to state it.

I guess I'll find out soon enough how well the disks last.
What are the 4pad calipers off of ?
Sounds like a decent mod.

My reliability concerns stem from us normally doing in the order of 3k to 4k miles each trip. I don't want to become the one in the group with the bike that never makes it home.
Last trip on the 996 it had something happen every day
Made for an entertaining trip, but I took a lot of stick for it.

The petrol issue is to do with group riding too. We normally stop every 120 miles or so, so as long as it'll do that comfortably, that'll be fine.

Pete,
thanks for the kind offer, especially given that you've never met me !
My 996 is still broken since my last trip (too skint to fix it until now), but I'll keep an eye out for the next newlands meet as its nice & local.
We'll have to book a test ride anyway as the deciding factor will be whether the wife likes it or not, so here's hoping its as comfy as the VFR

thanks for the heads-up on that forum, I'll check it out.

Cheers,
John.
p.s. Passes in Italy eh, susten, furka, oberall, Col de St Bernard, etc... yum yum

[John W]

Paul,

just checked out your site. Nice house !

I see what you mean about the pannier frmae. Not too obtrusive at all.

Interesting point about the pwer difference between the st4 & st2 (107 vs 75).
I hadn't said anything before but I have ridden an st2 before and was quite underwhelmed by it. It seemed to have plenty of torque but got a bit breathless, and I couldn't keep up with the others in my group. Maybe I hadn't modified my riding style sufficiently, who knows.

Anyway, barring a thumbs down from the wife I feel another Ducati coming on

[BDG]

The others have answered most of your specific questions but having owned vfr 750 and 800 and covered 40,000+ miles on them before buying st4 then st4s with combined mileage of 23,000 miles here's a few comments.

RIDING & HANDLING Despite spending money on ohlins shocks and revalved forks on vfr's they still don't handle as well. or same fun factor of Duc. VFR is a bit clinical and souless.With ride height and suspension properly set up duc is way superior in terms of handling and ground clearance, including track day use.

COMFORT. i found standard duc seat narrow and hard, not as good as vfr. However bought a Sargant seat which is far better OK for 600 mile days now. Standard duc screen too low for me at 6ft 3. Honda seem to have this magic 1 size fits all.

RELIABILTY. Only probs with duc has been new clutch required at about 10,000 miles and warped discs, otherwise fine.
Honda, might be a bit bland but absolutely bulletproof, even if neglected. I know of 2 vfr's that have done 100,000 miles and 1 that saw far side of 200,000. miles. (Despatch riders)

MISC. Hondas detailing (mirrors,headlight) definately superior. Honda is also better in town traffic.

LUGGAGE. Dunno, i just lob a small bag on the seat. Travel light,credit card, toothbrush, and spare pair of shreddies will suffice for a trip round Europe.

CONCLUSION. for all i've said in favour of vfr's the duc is definately the winner if you prefer your sports tourer to have some real sporting emphasis.


PS fuel range is better than vfr in either sedate or thrash mode. All my mates laffed when i bought mine but never broken down on numerous foreign thrashes and uses less oil than mates R1/EXUP. Far better brakes than vfr's horrible linked dog pooh or earlier 2 piston front calipers.

You might just have to buy another seat to keep the missus happy, but its well worth it