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Discussions on the race series devised and supported by the DSC.
 
 
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  #21  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 11:39
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Jools,

You're 100% right.
Ray.
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  #22  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 12:37
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Jools,

I'm with you on this one. Bog standard 583cc, standard engine internals. 10% max weight reduction. Loads of them around for decent cash.

If the reason for the series is top get people Ducati racing then there can be no cheaper way to do it.

I must admit I'd like the choice of a Pirelli tyre but would run with a control tyre if required.

Cheers,

Ali
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  #23  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 12:49
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I assume the idea is for the series to run for several seasons???

If so it is better to let the newer bikes in from the start, as these will become easier to find second hand (and Cheaper) each year. Whereas the older ones will be harder to come by.

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  #24  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 13:35
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I thought about the 600 only rule and I too thought this would be a good idea, but I remember the comment that Lizzie made - what if you already have a 620ie and wanted to take part in the racing? Would you sell the bike to buy an older monster or purchase another monster purely to race? It doesn't make sense to do that if you're in that position.

I too don't like the thought of control tyres - surely any "road legal" tyre is enough to suit the purpose?
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  #25  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 18:06
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My two-pennorth:

How much increase does a K&N and Dynojet kit give a carbed 600?

Maybe a 620 limited to exhaust changes versus 600 with filter/dynojet/exhaust changes, but no big-bore kits would keep costs down and not handicap the carbed bikes?

Brakes - how about standard (not cast iron or wavy) discs with any master cylinder? To be honest I have ridden a single disc bike and wouldn't fancy doing a race meeting at Oulton/Silverstone/Snetterton on one disc!

Tyres- If you choose (how?) a control tyre, it will always suit some more than others - so leave it free. If people want to spend £200 on a set of wets they will, but at least they won't be the ones to have wasted their bike prep money and entry fees if it pours with rain all meeting........

Cheers,
Paul
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  #26  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 18:11
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Well said Paynep.
especially the tyres - control tyres never suit everyone, eg. I don't like how Michelins give loads of grip, but little warning they are about to run out of grip, whereas with Dunlops you get slightly less grip but loads of warning.


[Edited on 12-10-2004 by STEVE M]
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  #27  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 19:22
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Agree with most of what Paul (Paynep) posted, except the brake bit.

Again I would like to point out that some 600SS only come with calliper lugs on one leg. Fit a cast Disc and 4 pad calliper to one of these along with a aeroquip hose and braking will be hugely improved.

Also bear in mind that on older bikes (some could be 10 years old) the discs will have a fair bit of wear by now and may need replacing and I think you'll find a new EBC prolite would make a sensibly priced replacement.
http://www.ngroadracing.org/phpBB2/v...626&highlight=

As cost appears to be a issue for most people I don't expect to see people using tyre warmers and generators.

[Edited on 12-10-2004 by skidlids]
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  #28  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 20:26
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Quote:
Originally posted by antonye
What if you already have a 620ie and wanted to take part in the racing? Would you sell the bike to buy an older monster or purchase another monster purely to race? It doesn't make sense to do that if you're in that position.

Why not? Surely that's the situation everyone is in? If you have a 748, 916, 996, 999, ST, Multistrada or whatever you're still in a position where you have to decide to purchase another bike purely to race or even sell the one you've got if that is the only way you're going to afford to race. Why should a 620ie owner be any different just because their base bike is closer to the regs than mine?

In any case, think about the market the 620ie Monster or SS is aimed at. Surely they're the 'my first Ducati' owner? Probably a first time 'big bike' for some or a commuter for others? Let's face it the type of person who buys one of these as their road bike isn't really the type of person who has performance at the top of their priority list when choosing bikes are they? Are they really the type of person who is going to think, "I know, I've been riding 6 months now I'll start racing"? Even if they did would they then race their road bike with all the risk of totalling it and not being able to ride to work? I don't think so.

And, final thought, just how many people are in this position? Who in the DSC has a 620ie and is gagging to race it? I bet there's no-one, but even if there is they're still gonna be in the minority when stacked up against the owners of other bikes who will have to buy a race bike.

So, I still say 600 carby only. £1000-1500 ish for a reasonable bike, £10 for a bit of lockwire, £50 for a catch tank and race the tit5 off it. Keep everything standard, it'll be the same for everyone.

Brakes, well what's wrong with a single disc if everyone has one? They'll all have to brake earlier. longer braking area = more chance of overtaking on the brakes for the brave? In any case you could say you're allowed four brake pads, then you could have a twin disc setup with ordinary brembo goldlines or a single disc with a pad per piston (if two pad per piston brakes are good for stopping a 999R from 170 I'm sure that a single one would cope with a 600)

Control tyres? They don't have to be a single control tyre, just limited to a type of tyre. If the idea is to stop 'cheque book' racing do you want to allow the rich blokes to throw on a fresh set of the stickiest tyres for every race? and wets if it's raining? Nightmare, spiralling costs straight away.

Why not say you can choose from a single similar class of tyre? Why not a choice of Pirelli Diablo's, Bridgestone 014's, Dunlop 207RR's, Michelin Pilot Sport etc..Reasonable fast road/ occasional track day tyres that should be grippy enough for anyone in the dry, and you use the same in the wet. Sure you won't go as fast as someone on snotball rentecs or full wets, but neither will anyone else 'cos they'll all be on the same type of tyre.
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  #29  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 20:49
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Quote:
Originally posted by skidlids

As cost appears to be a issue for most people I don't expect to see people using tyre warmers and generators.

[Edited on 12-10-2004 by skidlids]

oooooh get you!

see what you're getting at though.

the rules are already set and as far as i can see they are reasonable. they will always be someone that feels they could be changed to suit them better/make it fairer/cheaper etc. tough titties. thats life. happens all the time.

im sure hodgson would like the motogp rules changed or more money spent on his bike or HRC/yamaha given a cap on their budget to help him too, but he just gets on with it.

thats what we should do. those that want to can send their cheques in those that dont, dont. simple.

its great that people have taken the time and trouble to try and get this off the ground and where we can we should support it. if if doesnt float your boat fine. but it would be great for all concerned if its a success.

for the record this is aimed at no one especially and i havnt send my cheque off yet but will be soon. so thats last place sorted then.
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  #30  
Old 12-Oct-2004, 21:01
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WeeJohnyB WeeJohnyB is offline
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This is getting out of hand imho. For goodness sake - keep it simple. The rules as they stand are way too complex and expensive, again only in my opinion, which differs from other 'experienced' racers I know. I believe the objective is to get people in the DSC into racing easily and cheaply to race with their mates....so make it a one make series, with no mods and control tyres.....simple....no money advantage, no technical skills advantage, just you. Control tyres work well in CB5's and even the WSB guys agree they're good, but again to keep it cheap and equal, choose a ROAD tyre, not a semi race as you need to ride in March in Pembrey - you ain't gonna go well on any track tyre - it's road or wets.

With so many bikes and variations, who'll know who's leading who in any race - it'll be like some races I've been in with Hornets, CB5's, LC's, 125's and 400's all in the same race - it's not a race, it's people on an expensive track day where you only get two 12 minute sessions.

I can't stress this strongly enough - as it stands, it won't work. It'll be all money and weeks in the garage tinkering until the second that red light goes out....then it all changes, you're RACING, not having fun with your mates on a track day - IT IS VERY VERY DIFFERENT. Once you realise that the guy next to you has more money, done some fancy mods, got better tyres, suspension, a completely different bike??? it ceases to become a competitive race. This is not WSB/MotoGP.

In CB5's, the closest match to what I'm harping on about, there are minute things that make the difference to winning and coming second by 0.03, which I've done - tyres are newer, the guys slightly lighter than you, he's got newer pads, the power curve is different, he's got a different sprocket to you, he's lying flatter on the tank than you going down the straight etc - any of these will make the tiny difference that makes for close racing. Go with 600's, modified 600's, SS's, modified SS's, 620's and modified 620's - you may as well make it any red Ducati and be done with it - Skids could race his 748 he's been trying to sell!!!

Sorry to go on, but I think I know a fair bit about what it's like, when a lot posting here are putting uninformed opinions forward - which they're perfectly entitled to do of course and some are great ideas which enhance the original idea, which is great. Please don't think I'm up my own backside on this, but I love this club, love the people, love Ducatis and I would love to see this work. Once the red light is out, you'll know what I mean.

As an aside, if you're up around 80bhp, why not let 748's in - you can pick them up for the same as a decent 620 and at least they're proper race bikes - why not make it a 748 one make series

I've been at work too long, must get on and finish before I lose all credibility and friends around here.:P

Rant over

WeeJohnyB
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