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  #21  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 12:22
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Originally Posted by Martini
Whilst this is a sound theory, it does not work on a global scale.

USA, India and China are terrible polluters but they are not going to be paying pollution tax to Europe.

There is a European anti-pollution (recycling) scheme called WEE (http://www.bsi-global.com/Manufactur...E/Index.xalter) which says that by law anyone making electrical goods must offer a method of retrieving and re-cycling these goods when their life has expired. At no charge.

All well and good, but it has some fundamental flaws: 1) It only applies to Europe 2) Customers will not pay the extra cost this new service will entail 3) The law says European manufacturers must do it, so cheap Asian manufacturers win again.

Until there is some way of ensuring polluters WORLD-WIDE are held to account I don't see any way to counter global warming.

We are not all innocent here in Europe, either. If every country was to use resources at the same rate as Portugal, we would need three planets to support us! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/...0061221.shtml)

you make a lot of valid points there, but the WEEE directive stipulates that manufacturers must declare on their invoicing all charges which relate to the WEEE directive. This goes on until 2010 or 2012 I think, then the charges still apply but are not shown. So people have to pay the cost of recycling

But Japan is ahead of the EU in recycling and California will be mirroring the WEEE directive so although it wont be a miracle cure, taking a lead does influence.

manufacturers of goods from outwith the EU have to pay also, most likely done through there import arms eg Sony UK So whether you buy a Sony or a Bang and Olufson TV the receipt for either will list the associated WEEE charges.

you are right we are not all innocent, we need to take responsibility for what we do.

Last edited by 749er : 03-Jan-2007 at 13:35.
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  #22  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 12:22
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Originally Posted by psychlist
Ooh! Will they bring some pretty young Russian Au Pairs

you needing warmed up Paulo?
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  #23  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 12:23
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What grass?


the grass they dont play cricket on
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  #24  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 12:36
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DSC Member Jools Jools is offline
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There is no doubt that Global Warming is real. Neither is there much doubt that it is a man made phenomenon: the scientific community have pretty much reached consensus about that and most commentators are of the opinion that 2007 is going to be a pivotal year in terms of public recognition of the scientific facts.

So, just recognising that there is a man made problem is a start, but it's not all doom and gloom.

Sweden has a target of being 100% oil free by 2008, and a strategy to achieve it. Think about that, it's only next year! Their plans include technologies that are really simple, like effective insulation to minimise energy usage, as well as grander schemes like hydro-electricity and wind power. There is also some pretty impressive lateral thinking going on in the form of Combined Heat and Power stations where instead of sticking a damn great power station in the middle of nowhere and building big cooling towers to disperse the wasted heat, they build a smaller one on the edge of a town, use the electricity that is produced to power the town and run the coolant through a network of pipes to provide the town with heat as well. Huge efficiency gains there. These CHP stations run on a variety of fuels, but there are ones that burn vegetation and Bio-Fuel. There are also gassification plants that turn wood into gas and bio-fuel, the projections are that they can provide a huge amount of their energy needs through sustainable forestation.

Their plans rely heavily upon bio-fuels such as Ethanol and Bio-Diesel for transportation, and this to me is where the real win-win situation starts to occur.

Firstly in environmental terms, it is carbon neutral. The fuel will only release the same amount of carbon dioxide that the plants it was made from absorbed when they were growing. The time scale is the important thing here, it is only releasing Co2 that was absorbed last year (or thereabouts) rather than releasing Co2 that was absorbed and locked up millions of years ago, so the Co2 balance remains the same. Also, in environmental terms, it is sustainable - need more fuel, then just grow some more. At the moment, the bio-fuel that the Swedes use is not very eco-friendly since it is made from sugar cane grown in Brazil so it's transportation costs and dubious slash and burn agricultural practises make it less than ideal (that's where the gassification of sustainable forestation comes in for the Swedes). However, with a bit of creativity, a huge amount of our fuel could come from bio-sources. Crops such as Sugar Beet, Oilseed Rape and so on are pretty good candidates and we currently have a huge European Wine Lake (despite my best efforts) that can be turned into Ethanol.

In engineering terms, Bio-Diesel is just as efficient as ordinary diesel and you can get more power from Ethanol than you can with petrol - plus the fact that you don't need huge modifications to current internal combustion engines to make it work.

I'm no expert on this, just what I've picked up from various radio programs and articles, however a carbon neutral, sustainable supply of fuel that doesn't need any major change to current engines seems like a win-win to me.

And it doesn't stop there. It may appear just a utopian ideal, but if you imagine a world where our farmers can stop being paid to 'set aside' land and grow enough biomass to make the UK self-sufficient (as Sweden aims to be), where Europe, the Americas and even developing countries like China and India (huge potential to increase sugar cane production by massive ammounts in India) could follow suit, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that huge amounts of the world could be self sufficient in fuel and drastically reduce (if not eliminate) the total reliance on fossil fuels. Environmental utopia.

If you then think about the geo-political effects, it would remove the need for big greedy gas guzzling nations like the US to keep stomping around the world trying to exert economic and military pressure on third world countries to keep their supply of oil flowing. There would not be the need for the US and the West to meddle in Middle Eastern politics in order to maintain platforms of influence. You might like to think that with the need for western dominance removed, without the need for oil, that more political stability or even peace might be achieved.

India and China are fast developing countries who are now competing hard for the worlds energy resources. Between them they comprise one third of the worlds population and their expectations and goals are to reach the same standards of living as they can see in the western world. The world does not have the fossil fuel resources to allow this to happen so if they want to raise their standard of living, we've got to go down. So, without drastic changes to the dynamics of the worlds energy supplies, more conflict is almost inevitable. Chinese and Indian companies are already beating the western fuel companies for oil drilling licenses in places like Khazakstan, so with dwindling supplies of oil, the western powers have got to lower our energy consumption or give up some of our standard of living. We're not going to want to do that, so as competition for these resources gets more fierce, the west has to outbid the East for drilling rights - or fight them for it. That's where the real danger lies without an alternative to fossil fuel.

Oh yes, and how comfortable does everyone in Western Europe feel being a net importer of Russian gas? Belarus has just been told to pay double for their gas or the Russians will cut them off.

Bio-fuel. It won't happen big time until multinationals or countries work out how to make big money from it, but I think it could be the answer to a lot of the worlds environmental and political problems.

Hmmmm...Flower Power. Maybe the old hippies had a point?


The Patent Jools Mood Meter -Today I am:


___________^
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  #25  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 12:41
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excellent post Jools!
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  #26  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 12:50
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Originally Posted by 749er
the grass they dont play cricket on

I loves cricket me
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  #27  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 13:07
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Didnt David Attenbrough say that the explosion in human population is a greater threat to the planet than global warming.
I think he said The planet can survive with out humans but we cannot survive without Biodiversity and its space for other living things that will destroy the planet
animals could well adapt to a hotter planet over time but not if weve killed them all off by over populating everylast land mass.
As for the Gulf stream that would'nt be there if it wasnt for the last round of global warming,so we and it are only here because of the last melting of the ice cap which covered most of europe.
As for cows contributing to global warming I think there were far bigger populations of wild animals of this size about before man destroyed them all,
one of the early european settlers in america noted that you could walk from one side of the plains to the other on the backs of Bison thats again before we destroyed them.
man will destroy all land animals before global warming has a chance to kill us,were losing something like 50 species a day to overpopulation and deforestation.
hopefully nature will find a way to overcome this,its tried before
Black death/Flu in 1918/Aids and perhaps Bird Flu at the end of the day were just another life form with so called greater intelligence which most of the time weve used to either kill each other H bomb or animals through greed and pleasure.
perhaps we just dont deserve to be the planets guardians"
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  #28  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 13:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jools
There is no doubt that Global Warming is real. Neither is there much doubt that it is a man made phenomenon: the scientific community have pretty much reached consensus about that and most commentators are of the opinion that 2007 is going to be a pivotal year in terms of public recognition of the scientific facts.

I think there's a vital flaw in the argument here and the WHOLE scientific community are obviously under the influence of about half the worlds population!
It's always the same result, blame MAN! Where is the evidence to simply blame MAN for this so called catastrophe (I don't mind riding in the rain, at least it'll be warm) and why shouldnt women bear as much responsibility
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  #29  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 13:26
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Jools, I agree with everything that you say. India and China are trying hard to play catch-up and no amount of political pressure is going to stop them. It needs the rest of the world to help them, econimocally and financially. And that is why I am convinced that we will not manage to turn this around. This planet has not been destroyed by mankinds greed, but by human nature. It will take more than a few well-intentioned individuals to make an effort. It needs the entire planet to adhere to a cohesive policy. If just a couple of countries refuse to cooperate, then human nature will kick in. "If they aren't going to play by the rules then why should we?". Individuals will not do what is needed. Governments need to legislate to force citizens to comply. Who is going to vote for a government that is going to lower their standard of living and give help to another country?
I think that we will all figure out what really needs to be done and be prepared to take the consequences when we really have no other choice, but I really do believe that by then it will be too late.
I think that wars are going to be fought over global warming. Coutnries will do what they have to to survive. Resources will run low and countries will take what they can from other countries, all in the name of survival.
You don't see any other animal on this planet thinking about it's species long-term future. They sleep, eat, reproduce and live and die. Did the last dodo think "damn, I'm the last one". I think our time is coming to an end, and it doesn't really matter whether it be by our own hand, or a giant meteorite hitting earth. The outcome will be the same.
Still, I don't let it get me down.
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  #30  
Old 03-Jan-2007, 13:31
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Originally Posted by psychlist
and why shouldnt women bear as much responsibility

excellent!

dont know if this is true but I got told that the guy who worked out it was a good idea to put lead in petrol then went on to put CFCs in fridges.
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