| #11  14-Feb-2005, 11:24 | ||||
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Thanks Keith for popping over. Left the battery on charge all night and despite an indicated volatge of 13.2 still no joy! Still we shall wait and see what happens when the new one arrives - as you say thank gawd for warranties  I was tempted to try off a car battery got a spare one in my garage but worried I might blow my electrics completely - presumably you can do it Frank? If so what and how do I need do/avoid?  |
| #12 14-Feb-2005, 11:47 | ||||
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| Hmmmm.....I have 'successfully' managed to start my bike, jumping off from a car battery when my Ducati refused to start under its own steam. However, I can think of once when I started the car as well and cant help thinking this might of done some damage - here are two very relavent articles - good luck: http://www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/jump.htm 1) "This article was originally posted by Kenneth Murray to the VFR List, and he has graciously allowed me to post it here as a reference for others. It is an excellent post that may be useful to other riders. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, Kenneth was saying ... "I've jump started motorcycles from car batteries several times and not suffered any ill effects that I know about. Worse than that, I've jumped a dead bike from a *running* car successfully. Jumping a deeply discharged lead-acid battery will cause it to start producing hydrogen gas. If the concentration of hydrogen in the air space above the battery plates reaches 4% (not a lot), it is potentially explosive. Keep ignition sources away from the discharged battery! In particular, be careful with the jumper cables, they can produce the deadly spark. Here are the instructions that came with my jumper cables. (i) Connect +ve of dead battery to +ve of live battery. (ii) Connect -ve of live battery to chassis of dead vehicle. (iii) Crank it. (iv) Disconnect cables in the reverse order. Note that (ii) puts the last connection away from the dead battery. Please, please take this warning seriously. An exploding battery will scatter acid everywhere, maybe in your face and eyes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've heard the horror stories and I've heard advice and opinions both ways. So in an effort to find out the straight dope, I called Yuasa, Interstate, and Hawker Energy Products (used to be Gates). Gates (800 546 9611) didn't return my call. Yuasa (800 523 3553) said "we do not recommend jumping a motorcycle battery from an automotive battery." I asked why and the technical rep said something about the car battery being "too strong." I pressed him for a slightly more precise explanation, but I didn't get anywhere. Interstate (800 541 8419) had a real engineer answer the 'phone. He said as long as both systems (car and bike) are 12 volts, there shouldn't be any problem. I told him about Yuasa's objections and he didn't understand them. In simple terms, the size of the car battery is a capacity. The bike will only draw on that capacity what it wants or needs. That last statement probably needs to be qualified with "if the motorbikes electricals are in good shape and all that's wrong is that the battery is discharged". I also asked about jump starting a bike from a running car and he said he could see that might be a problem since the voltage at a running car's battery terminals rises and this might be too much for the bike's electricals to handle. I know next to nothing about lead-acid batteries and that whole electrochemical nightmare, but my background is in electronics engineering so I'm going to indulge in a little speculation. I think it is unlikely you'll harm a motorbike by jump starting it from a car battery (car engine OFF). This is the answer everyone wants to hear on Sunday morning when the dang thing won't start. The only way you'll damage the bike is if there's a fault in its charging system or wiring. I can imagine if there's a short circuit somewhere on the bike, the car battery with its greater capacity could fry the wiring harness, but the bike's fuses *should* protect you. Jumping the bike from a running car is a much bigger risk. Off the top off my head, I could see that the extra voltage from the car could blow the diodes that normally prevent the bike's battery running the alternator as a motor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The above is only my opinion folks. I kid myself it's an informed opinion, but confronted with lawyers I'll deny everything  . "2) and I dont pretend to understand all this........... http://www.shadowriders.org/faq/jumpstarting.html "Jump Starting – NOT from a Running Car Submitted by Radford, B Davis The issue is that cars (and 'wings and a very few other bikes) have a different type of alternator than our Shadows (and most other motorcycles) have. Basic theory idea, for those who came in late: Generators of all types make electricity by moving a magnetic field relative to a coil of wire. The stronger the magnetic field and the faster it moves, the more electricity is generated. The moving part is usually called an armature or rotor. The stationary part is called a stator. The typical car alternator is an excited field type. The magnetic field is created by an electromagnet in the rotor. Supply voltage is controlled by the amount of current going through the electromagnet. Most big AC generators are made this way. If an external power source is applied of a higher voltage than the regulator setpoint is applied to the system, the regulator will recognize the system voltage as being above setpoint and turn the field magnet (usually rotor) off. Result: No problem, as long as the applied voltage isn't so high as to damage anything (typically 25 V or higher on a 12V system). So you can (usually) jump start a car with another car, or a GoldWing without any problems. Now the bad news: Most motorcycles don't use an electromagnet to create the magnetic field. Instead ,we have a drum-shaped rotor (usually on the crankshaft) with several permanent magnets placed inside (a magneto). These magnets moving past the stator coils create the electricity we need to run the lights, charge the battery, etc. But you can't change the strength of a permanent magnet. So regulating the generator output is not a straightforward issue of turning the field magnet strength up or down. The motorcycle voltage regulators I've seen all take the approach of shunting excess generated power to ground. This has the advantage of making sure that the voltage is the same everywhere in the system, but the disadvantage of meaning that the stator is always flowing its maximum rated supply current. This, I think, is why many motorcycles have a reputation for frying stators. So the design of one of these regulators is completely different from a cage regulator. It has a voltage detection part, like the other regulators, but the big resistor/power transistor package has to be strong enough to carry all the possible excess power generation to ground. It handles a lot more power than the car regulator has to. It generates a lot of heat as it does this, which is why the regulator on my '85 VT1100 is finned and out in the open air--to carry off the heat before it cooks something in or around the regulator. A typical bike magneto makes 30-50 amps at max power. So the regulator is designed to dissipate a maximum of about 700 watts for short periods (this would be full power and no loads on the bike--the battery and lights are all missing). In practice, this cooks the regulator pretty fast--they don't like to dissipate more than about 200 watts for any length of time. Now consider what happens when your moto regulator is doing a good job keeping the system at a nominal 14.1 volts when running, but the battery is weak, so you have to jump-start it on cold mornings. You hook up the bike to your Toyota with a 95 amp alternator (max output about 1400 watts). The Toyota's voltage regulator keeps *its* system at a cozy 14.3 volts when the engine is running. We now have a problem. The cage's alternator and regulator want to maintain the system at 14.3 volts. Your bike's regulator, the instant the system is turned on, is going to try to bleed off excess voltage from the system to keep it at 14.1 volts. The car's alternator is rated for 1400 watts. The bike's regulator can dissipate a maximum of 700 for (very) short periods before it cooks itself. It's a tug of war, and the bike regulator ALWAYS loses. Moral of the story--jump-start your bike from a non-running cage. The quiescent voltage of a car (or bike) battery is in the 13.2-13.8 volt range. The only result of this is that the full output of the bike's magneto will go into the cage and moto batteries once the bike starts. This actually reduces the load on the regulator to near zero, so it's quite happy with this state of affairs. Corrolary: Want to reduce the load on your bike's voltage regulator? Install MORE (or brighter) lights. No kidding. Since the regulator only handles power output beyond the bike's demands, installing more demands means that the regulator does less (and is happier). The stator does the same amount of work in either case, so no problem there. Be forewarned, though, that Honda didn't exactly break the bank on copper for the wire in our bikes. It's sized to work just right with no corroded connectors and the stock loads. You need to run larger/more supply wires from the battery if you intend to use significantly more power than does the stock system. |
| #14 14-Feb-2005, 12:25 | ||||
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| #15 14-Feb-2005, 12:25 | ||||
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| #16 14-Feb-2005, 16:53 | ||||
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| Fascinating stuff and thanks for all the advice and help chaps! The battery Ive got is a spare so it wont be connected at any time to the car/alternator so assuming Ive got this right this should not do any harm whatsoever...  Fingers crossed still tho |
| #17 14-Feb-2005, 17:26 | ||||
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| #18 14-Feb-2005, 19:57 | |||
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| Great info Frank. Hey Paul,I have a fire extinguisher you can borrow if you like!  :lol; 12V is dangerous stuff you know!You say you got 13.2v,I'm guessing that was in its quiescent (no load) state?What was the voltage after you tried to start the bike? Keep us posted. [Edited on 14-2-2005 by KeefyB] |
| #19 15-Feb-2005, 07:10 | ||||
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| #20 15-Feb-2005, 13:19 | ||||
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On balance I think I'll wait for the new battery to arrive... The luck Ive had recently I can just imagine watching the electrics melt before my eyes  Somehow I think Ducati would have an issue on any subsequent warranty claim - 'Umm tryed to start the bike off a car battery eh?' Thanks again for the advice etc and I'll let you know what happens when I get the new battery. Paul |
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