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[Loz]

Originally Posted by antonye

Unfortunately we live in a country where you can be sent to jail for "thought crime"...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7084801.stm

Deeply worrisome. "Thought crime" indeed - until you get to the almost throw-away line near the end of the article where the defendant allegedly had attempted to donate money to a terrorist organisation. I think that would be a crime, morally if not in law.

[antonye]

Originally Posted by Loz

Deeply worrisome. "Thought crime" indeed - until you get to the almost throw-away line near the end of the article where the defendant allegedly had attempted to donate money to a terrorist organisation. I think that would be a crime, morally if not in law.

Note the "allegedly" in there, let alone "attempted"!

"attempted" requires a definition; thought about it but didn't? Wrote a cheque but ripped it up? Put some money into a box at a mosque?

The whole "terror manuals" thing is bullshit. She had the owner's manual for a Dragunov sniper rifle on her computer; the owner's manual for a rifle which is widely available in most countries and it not technically illegal in this country either if you hold the correct licence. FFS, I've got pictures of me on my website firing that very same rifle (and scoring 45/50 at 250m!) so does that make me a terrorist as well? Surely that's worse than owning the user manual?

In this case, and it opens a whole can of worms, I think that the police backed up the terrorism charges with some very weak circumstantial evidence to paint a very bad view of a very naiive person; god help us if they ever checked out most people on this board!

[Ray]

Originally Posted by antonye

Unfortunately we live in a country where you can be sent to jail for "thought crime"...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7084801.stm

You can still think what you like, just don't write your thoughts down/"publish" them or speak about them.

Ray.

[antonye]

Originally Posted by Ray

You can still think what you like, just don't write your thoughts down/"publish" them or speak about them.

Why not?

What's the difference between having the thought and writing them down or speaking out?

Surely the deciding factor should be the intention?

I downloaded the Hacker's Handbook many years ago when I first got access to the internet because I thought it would be interesting to read (which it was). I never had any intention of using the information it contained, and most of it was US based so wouldn't work anyway, but if I did the same today I'd have a spell at Her Majesty's Pleasure!

I have similar books about internet security and hacking sitting on my bookshelf at home due to the nature of my job. They are years out of date but if my house was raided and the police were that desperate to send me down, I'm sure they'd be used as evidence against me.

[MJS]

Originally Posted by antonye

Note the "allegedly" in there, let alone "attempted"!

"attempted" requires a definition; thought about it but didn't? Wrote a cheque but ripped it up? Put some money into a box at a mosque?

The whole "terror manuals" thing is bullshit. She had the owner's manual for a Dragunov sniper rifle on her computer; the owner's manual for a rifle which is widely available in most countries and it not technically illegal in this country either if you hold the correct licence. FFS, I've got pictures of me on my website firing that very same rifle (and scoring 45/50 at 250m!) so does that make me a terrorist as well? Surely that's worse than owning the user manual?

In this case, and it opens a whole can of worms, I think that the police backed up the terrorism charges with some very weak circumstantial evidence to paint a very bad view of a very naiive person; god help us if they ever checked out most people on this board!

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If this person did happen to be involved in atrocity in the near future and it came out that the authorities had known about her and done nothing for lack of evidence, they would have been wrong then as well...

[antonye]

Originally Posted by Urban996

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If this person did happen to be involved in atrocity in the near future and it came out that the authorities had known about her and done nothing for lack of evidence, they would have been wrong then as well...

Very true.

But isn't that what the security services should be doing - keeping a close eye on people like this and making their way higher up the chain to unravel the networks and make a bigger impact? Picking off the minions won't make much of a difference.

If they'd have found 2lbs of C4 under her bed then I would applaud the conviction, but as it stands what little evidence that has been provided is very circumstantial and I'm surprised it stood up in court.

But we're digressing from the subject...

[MJS]

Originally Posted by antonye

But we're digressing from the subject...

Indeed we are.

And I do agree with your valid points about a perceived lack of firm evidence. Just strikes me that no-one can really do the right thing these days. It probably also didn't help her case that she worked at an airport - had she worked in the local corner shop she might still be there.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by antonye

Why not?

What's the difference between having the thought and writing them down or speaking out?

Bit difficult to present thoughts to a court unless there is evidence, i.e. written or evidence of conversations.

"Are you thinking what we're thinking"...........unless there is communication in some way you'll never know although some egg heads might say that technology does exist to know what someone is thinking, you can give away what your thinking in so many ways but how many stand up to court scrutiny is the difficult question.

The ways things are going though I s'pose with the state having to provide less evidence or in some cases no evidence to your guilt and the burden of proof shifts to the accused having to prove their innocence then maybe "thought" crime as I see it or think of it is going to become more common.

I'm thinking its time for a cup of tea............................and possibly a quiet lie down in a darkened room.............................


Ray.

[antonye]

Originally Posted by Ray

The ways things are going though I s'pose with the state having to provide less evidence or in some cases no evidence to your guilt and the burden of proof shifts to the accused having to prove their innocence then maybe "thought" crime as I see it or think of it is going to become more common.

I think the mentioned case highlights exactly that problem.

Originally Posted by Ray

I'm thinking its time for a cup of tea............................and possibly a quiet lie down in a darkened room.............................

Just don't have any naughty thoughts while you're there!

[bradders]

theres an interesting post on VD about this, in trems of the quoted litigation etc

back to bikes, lost out on one today so still looking