Ducati Sporting Club UK
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 18:03
Lloydy Lloydy is offline
Registered Forum User
Bevel Head
 
Posts: 91
Join Date: May 2003
996 Rockers

My 996 is due to run out of warranty at the end of March, was planning to get it serviced before then by Ducati.

There is a local race bike/tuning company close to me, Performance Techniques.

They are really great people and have Simon Watson from BHP Motorcycles working for them on any Ducati/Bimotos..

Anyway, I put my bike in to get a check over and a Dyno.

They have just phoned and told me that 3 of my rockers need replacing. They are going to order in the parts tomorrow for me.

Where do I stand with Ducati? Can I claim back the cost of these (£300)..

Any advice would be appreciated.

Mark
Quote+Reply
  #2  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 18:18
Rushjob's Avatar
Rushjob Rushjob is offline
Registered Forum User
Big Twin
 
Posts: 1,802
Join Date: Apr 2002
Mood: :-)
If they are not authorised Ducati agents then I suspect Ducati UK will politely smile & say bye bye.
The view is usually that the warranty is voided if non authorised agents carry out work on it during the warranty period.
Quote+Reply
  #3  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 18:33
Lloydy Lloydy is offline
Registered Forum User
Bevel Head
 
Posts: 91
Join Date: May 2003
Yes that makes sense.

Hey ho, lesson learnt here I think.

Looks like I will be getting a bill for about £900, instead of £600..

Serves me right I guess.
Quote+Reply
  #4  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 18:58
Shazaam!'s Avatar
DSC Member Shazaam! Shazaam! is offline
DSC Club Member
Big Twin
 
Posts: 1,167
Join Date: Nov 2001
Warranty & Flaky Rockers (not Def Leppard)

The ultimate decision regarding voiding your warranty is Ducati's but if you read your warranty you'll see that Ducati's warranty is not predicated upon an authorized dealer performing all of your maintenance work nor does it require that the motorcycle remain in an unmodified condition or contain only factory parts during the warranty period.

However, if you have a claim during the warranty period it's reasonable for Ducati to suspect that inadequate maintenance and/or aftermarket parts had contributed to the failure. But legally they can't just void your entire warranty. They have to prove that the presence of non-factory parts or improper maintenance caused or contributed to the failure.

Conversely, there is an obligation and need that you keep records and receipts that can demonstrate that any maintenance work not performed by Ducati was done according to the service schedule and all replacement fluids met Ducati's specification.

To avoid any concerns, any performance parts that you install have to meet Ducati's specification as well. The only parts that meet this criteria are Ducati Performance parts and they have to be installed by an authorized dealer for the parts themselves to be covered under warranty and to avoid warranty issues on the motorcycle itself.

Consequently, if you decide to install any non-Ducati part or use a non-approved lubricant, fuel, or hydraulic fluid and you experience a related failure, expect a warranty challenge on a case-by-case basis. If you change your oil and filter yourself and later have an engine seizure determined by Ducati to be the result of inadequate lubrication you've got a problem.

So, even though a dealer cannot say that your entire warranty is void due to aftermarket pipes, you'll loose if you have an engine failure that can be traced to an excessively lean fuel condition caused by installing an incorrect Eprom for example.

Aftermarket parts usually carry their own warranty and often are of higher quality than OEM parts but still can cause problems if improperly installed, and it may be unwise to substitute a part (say a filter) simply because it's less expensive than the OEM unit.


Regarding the rocker replacement.

Ducati has known of this design deficiency since it first appeared in 1996. On bikes with 4-valve heads, the rocker arms have simply not been reliable. A good number of them flake-off their chrome plating before the time of their first service at 6,000 miles and that often can result in scratched camshaft lobes if not caught in time. The rocker arms in 851/888's and pre-1996 916's typically lasted 80K miles with no problems. 1996 was the year when Ducati began to outsource the rocker plating to subcontractors and problems began.

Ducati basically concedes that there has indeed been a rocker problem in the past, but has repeatedly assured us that things have been fixed. They also point out that the rocker problem will be covered under warranty, even if you're outside the warranty period, (if it's not a race bike or an SPS/R.) So, when you have this problem, just work with your local dealer who will replace the damaged parts. If you're out of warranty, you usually will have to pay for the labor cost only.

They're not just being good guys here. From a legal standpoint, if there is a known manufacturing defect, warranty period or not, the manufacturer is responsible to sell you goods that can perform up to the standard expected when purchased - no matter how long after purchase.

There probably have been 17 rocker design iterations over the years. For 2001, Ducati announced they were now using an improved rocker design that is also compatible with earlier year engines. The new 2001 opening rockers can be identified by a small dot punched on the side where they fit onto the shaft. Unfortunately these rockers fail in exactly the same way. So even if you have a 2001 or later model, make sure that when you have your bike serviced at 6K miles, that they remove the cams (25 minutes labor) and inspect the rockers since any damage cannot be seen otherwise. The flaking starts as small little patches and if you catch early you can avoid cam damage.

To play it safe, and to make sure that Ducati doesn't balk at replacing your rockers, it's a good idea to keep adequate records to show that you've adjusting the engine valve clearances to Ducati specs on schedule, and used a lubricant that conforms to Ducati's specification in the owners manual.*There have been instances reported where some Ducati dealers have tried to make the owner feel that they have somehow abused the bike and then charged them for repairs.

The rocker arms have a hard chrome coating to increase their wear resistance where they contact the cam lobe. The opening rockers are more likely to be affected but occasionally the closing rockers flake as well. The closers don't take anywhere near the abuse as the openers.

There has been a lot of debate about the reasons why the chrome comes off. The answer is likely a combination of inadequate chrome thickness and the unusually long time needed for the oil to reach these parts during a cold start. In normal circumstances, a good synthetic oil would leave a surface film that is adequate lubrication until oil flow is established.

There's some correlation between a lack of oil and rocker failures. For example, the horizontal cylinder exhaust rockers sit in a oil bath and rarely fail. Most often, failures are seen in the more distant vertical cylinder rockers, especially on the hotter exhaust side. For the 1999 model year, Ducati increased the size of the oil galleys to the heads to try to solve the problem.

I don't think Ducati knows the definitive answer. If they did, the problem would’ve been corrected years ago. If it's any consolation, this type of problem is not unique to Ducati. Other manufacturers have had rocker hard coating issues in the past. Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki, to name a few.

Replacing a failed rocker with another having the same potential for failure doesn't make a lot of sense, so some owners have installed Megacycle rockers, stock rocker arms that have been machined down in thickness to allow for a greater thickness of chrome to be applied. Others say that the Corsa rockers are the ultimate fix.

The Megacycle fix is to grind the rocker/cam contact area back .035 to .040 inches and then build back up with a hard nickle-chrome boron alloy brazed onto the rocker, then grind the repair back to factory specs.

http://www.megacyclecams.com/

See Neil Spalding's articles on the Signa Performance website for more information:

http://www.sigmaperformance.com/rockers.html
Quote+Reply
  #5  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 19:11
Lloydy Lloydy is offline
Registered Forum User
Bevel Head
 
Posts: 91
Join Date: May 2003
My word...

Many thanks for that. Although I didnt understand any of it to be honest. I only try to ride the bike, I am not mechanical at all.

So, I can guess from what you are saying that because I have Blue Flame cans on my bike and the guys at Performance Techniques have just carried out some work that I cannot claim for the price of the rockers.

Any replacement, would have to be done by an authorised Ducati dealer.

Apparently the guy that is doing my bike is very well know amongst Ducati, but is not an authorised dealer (as such)..

Is it worth phoning Ducati and explaining what has happened? If so, what number do I call? Or do I just phone my nearest dealer?

Mark
Quote+Reply
  #6  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 19:20
ducv2 ducv2 is offline
Registered Forum User
Mille
 
Posts: 261
Join Date: Jul 2003
Mood: Built for comfort, not speed
If you get any joy out of Ducati UK, can you post it, as I have had the same sort of experience, 8 rockers and a cam gone, non franchised dealer blah blah. Good luck.
Quote+Reply
  #7  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 19:29
Lloydy Lloydy is offline
Registered Forum User
Bevel Head
 
Posts: 91
Join Date: May 2003
So I am guessing that you didnt get anywhere then..

Shazaam:

Stupid question. Can I expect the existing rockers and even the new ones to flake again? Is this all part of owning a Duc?

Cheers
Quote+Reply
  #8  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 20:12
Rushjob's Avatar
Rushjob Rushjob is offline
Registered Forum User
Big Twin
 
Posts: 1,802
Join Date: Apr 2002
Mood: :-)
Shazaam
I think there may be an important difference between US and UK law.

My UK warranty booklet states
" The general warranty terms will become null and void in the event that;
a) motorcycles are disassembled or repaired at unauthorised workshops,i.e. other than our authorised Dealer'sservice network
b)..........................."

This is acommon thread for all manner of vehicles & other goods in the UK and Europe.
In order to prevent this protectionism by the manufacturers, there is currently consumer legislation going through to remove this requirement from manufacturers warranties.

Until this is passed, this is what we are stuck with over here.

I hope that Lloydy can get somewhere but sadly I don't think he'll succeed.

Best of luck.
Quote+Reply
  #9  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 20:36
Mike Davis Mike Davis is offline
Registered Forum User
Mille
 
Posts: 181
Join Date: Jun 2001
Mood: Shiney
The item rushjob is on about has already gone through the European Court with them finding in favour of the cosumer sometime in 2002.

We do work on Honda Suzuki Kawasaki Yamaha and Ducati and basically as long as we do the work to their shedule and using OE parts this will not invalidate any warranty.

I went to the trouble of finding this out because several of our customers who`s bikes we have looked after for a while and have now built a trusting relationship with ourselfs wanted to buy new bikes, didn`t want the local franchise dealer near them but at the same time did not want to invalidate any warranty.

My suggestion is to certainly speak to Ducati they are very reasonable and you are more likely to get a result with them than any of the Jap four.
Quote+Reply
  #10  
Old 12-Feb-2004, 20:46
Rushjob's Avatar
Rushjob Rushjob is offline
Registered Forum User
Big Twin
 
Posts: 1,802
Join Date: Apr 2002
Mood: :-)
That's news to me, only wish I'd known it 3 months ago when our local trading standards gave me the info I quoted above.
Might give them a ring and a kicking.
It's also good news for Lloydy it seems.
Quote+Reply
Reply
  
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Postbit Selector
Switch to Vertical postbit Use Vertical Postbit

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Recent Posts - Contact Us - DSC Home - Archive - Top
Powered by vBulletin 3.5.4 - Copyright © 2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. - © Ducati Sporting Club UK - All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:00.