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Old 26-Nov-2005, 18:01
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Athelstan Athelstan is offline
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The ST Range

Guys n Gals
I have just finished reading December's edition of "Touren Fahrer" (the best german bike mag for us touring bike fans). In it they list all the bikes that will be on sale in 2006, so I scanned the Ducati list and yes as per some previous comments on the DSC site - Ducati are onlky marketing the ST3 and ST3abs. Unbeliveable that they drop their best bike the ST4s. I've said it before and I'll repeat it again - they've lost touch with what the "Sports Touring" motorcyclist wants.

In total contrast that very clever Derbyshire chap "John Bloor" has just lanched his latest generation Sprint ST and all the german mags are stating quiet clearly that it is the best sports touring bike on the market.

Well if the folks at Ducati don't up their game in this segment of the market they can only look forward to Triumph stealing customers and market share from them.

It is no wonder that Senior Executives in Bologna stated recently that they have hada very tough and disappointing sales year!!!

[Edited on 26-11-2005 by Athelstan]
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Old 26-Nov-2005, 18:11
SteveR SteveR is offline
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I know that the ST4s is an incredible bike, i've serviced loads of them, some with 24K+ miles on them and still going strong BUT has any one ridden the ST3 ? If not then try it ! You might not think that it would be as strong as the 4s but it feels very torquey. All of our customers who have bought one love them.
If your local dealer has a demo TRY IT, I think you will be suprised. Iknow the styling may not be to every ones taste but the '05 ST4s looks the same any way.
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Old 26-Nov-2005, 18:21
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DSC Member Jools Jools is offline
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Hmmmm... Sort of agree. All of us ST owners know how underated they are, but I can see how they've dropped the 4S.

If you look at Ducati's engine range, the older engine designs like the 996 are getting harder to get through the tightening emissions regs.

If you think about it, Ducati now just make the latest generation two valve engines for the Monsters, Multistrada's and SS's, a three valve variant of that for the ST3 and the testastretta's for the 749/999, and now the S4RS.

So that just leaves the S4R using the 996 lump and my guess is that when next years bikes (for 2007) are announced, the S4RS will become the S4R and the 996 engine will be quietly dropped to rationalise production.

I also think that Ducati don't quite know what to do with the ST range. My ST2 and the first generation ST's were always more sport than touring, which is why, I think, they make such fantastic all-rounders. I don't think the later bikes with their bigger 'honda-esque' fairings quite appeal to the sports inclined rider so much, especially now that panniers come as standard, because Ducati have taken them more towards the Touring end of the spectrum. But, they don't appeal to the touring fraternity either 'cos they'll stick with their Pans and Beemers.

So I think the ST range is a bit lost at the moment, neither one thing or the other, and it's even got internal competition from the Multistrada. To be honest, even though I love my ST, I reckon the Multi is the better all rounder, and panniered up with a corbin seat on it, I reckon it would make a better tourer as well.

Who knows, maybe once the S4R gets a testastretta, Ducati might see fit to producing an ST with one as well.
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Old 26-Nov-2005, 18:22
Henners Henners is offline
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You're right Steve - the ST3 is a great bike. IMHO the 996 engined ST4 is smoother and a more together sports tourer though. The VFR is however ...
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Old 26-Nov-2005, 23:23
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Athelstan Athelstan is offline
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As I said "Ducati lack direction".
The ST3 may be a good bike Steve, but, the vast majority of the sports touring bike buyers are just not stumping up with the cash, and that's what counts if Ducati are going to stay in business. And, ST4's should be going strong long after you've done your 24k service on them - if you'd have said 124k then I'd be impressed.

Mine (2001 model ST4s) is a belter and I hope it stays that way as I won't be putting my money down on an ST3. (Phil has let me try both the ST3 and Multistrada and they don't do it for me when it comes to putting down 4 to 600 miles in a day very quickly to get from A to B or when in mid gear squirting the gas to overtake a towed caravan on steep alpine pass safely with loads to spare.

The sales figures across all European, US and Japanese markets clearly indicated that Ducati's whole range of bikes have lost their shine with the buying public as both volume and market share has declined. And in my humble opinion, I will be very surprised if the retro bikes (PS/S/GT 1000's) or the Monster's S2R 1000 and S4RS in 2006 will lift the global sales figures.

Jools you are right to touch upon the "styling" fairing change that Ducati did to the ST range - that exercise moved the bikes away from their european visual signature towards a bland asian canvas and did nothing to enhance the "creative" appeal of the ST bike to none Ducatista.

The "testastretta" engine is the way forward together with a new dynamic european fairing plus the re introduction of Ohlins instead of the Showa's/Sachs units; a move back to those wonderful little touches of crafted aluminium stalks for the brake and clutch fluid reservoirs which have been replaced by bits of plastic and a single sided swinging arm to facilitate speedier rear wheel removal plus a carbon fibre rear hugger instead of the latest plastic incarnation - then and only then - will I part with my old '01ST4s and hard cash for another new Ducati.

[Edited on 27-11-2005 by Athelstan]
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Old 27-Nov-2005, 00:39
Henners Henners is offline
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Sorry guys ..

... I don't agree the testastretta engine is the way forward. The V4 is the way forward as V twins are losing their cachet in the eyes of the buying public. Even Terblanche has been quoted recently as getting bored with designing V twins ...
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Old 27-Nov-2005, 12:07
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Henners
Ultimately I agree, but I did not mention it as it is a step too far re timing for the ST range - Ducati are almost certain to drop the V4 into the "Super Sports" range first.

I started this tread because I for one do not want to be "bored" with the Ducati product offering and be forced to switch to another manufacturer that is "on-the-ball" with their Sports Tourer models.
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Old 27-Nov-2005, 13:24
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ST Range

Whilst it is easy to sympathise with those of us who prefer the St4S model, we do need to face up to the fact that Ducati is in dire straits financially. They are losing money hand over fist and the reality is that the company is battling to survive.
Rightly or wrongly, they decided that a Desmo 3 motor is the best way to go for a sports touring bike. I may be in the minority here but I agree with them. A sports tourer, by definition has to be something of a compromise and I believe that the 3 valver is just right. The bike is fast and you would sail past caravan towers or anything else on Alpine passes.
I cannot agree that the Multistrada competes with the ST3 as a tourer. Of course it may serve as reasonably useful for this purpose but is nowhere near as good. Good bike though it is I found it unsatisfactory for long distance riding and got rid of mine.
The ST3 is the most comfortable bike I have ever ridden, it handles well, the motor is perfect for its purpose, the screen protects and the mirrors work, the handlebars are easily adjusted to high or sporty low positions. The ST2 is a good bike but those I know who have changed up to the ST3 are very happy and are holding on to them.They are excellent value for money and the new ST3S has ABS for those of us who go for such things.
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Old 27-Nov-2005, 14:02
Henners Henners is offline
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As an ex-ST3 owner myself I agree that it is a very good bike, however, I don't believe the 3 valve V twin is an ideal engine for the role of sports tourer. Sure it's got a very good spread of power and torque however it's very lumpy at low revs and not good to ride because of that in slow traffic. It also vibrates a fair bit more than the 4 valvers. It does offer great comfort and wind protection although the handling isn't inspiring and neither are the brakes.

Consequently when I was looking round for another sports tourer I decided that the pre-Vtec VFR800 was the one to go for and I believe that it offers the best package for this role in terms of power delivery, handling and build quality compared with anything on the market - including the Triumph ST.

V twins still offer great superbike thrills and if I didn't dislike the shape of the 999 so much I'd still have a Ducati. The Fireblade I've just bought is a simply stunning bike to ride - it makes going fast seem slow just like a 998, however 4000 mile services are only £90, the finish is superb and the ultimate performance just amazing with 150bhp at the rear wheel

Ducati is in a very difficult position. The next generation of engines have to be V4s and I don't think they have the time to wait and drip feed them in through the superbike line. I really really hope they make the right decisions so I can come back to Ducati ownership.
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Old 27-Nov-2005, 14:37
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DSC Member Jools Jools is offline
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I agree with the fact that Ducati are in dire straits, that seems to be the fate of so many Italian motorcycle companies - boom, bust and financial rescue.

I also agree that unless they're switched on to change, the brave little Euro manufacturers will suffer the same way as the British motorcycle industry did. I remember riding the first Honda 750 Four to appear in our locality and I remember laughing with my mates afterwards about the horrible rubber frame, the horrible rubber on the japanese tyres and the way the chrome was showing signs of rust and flakiness on a 3 month old bike....Nah! I'll keep my 'bitza' A10 ta... then look what happened, the Japanese continued to improve on the design and engineering (they've never been great innovators) and the rest is history.

In reading roadtests of the time about my 888 the thing that comes across is that it destroys the Japanese competition of the day as an all round sportsbike, but times have changed. The Japanese have upped the ante, and despite the fact that nobody can really use all the power of a modern sportsbike on the road, there will always be those people who are impressed by 'willy waving' statistics and will want the latest, greatest whether they can use them properly or not. In fact, they seem to want them in droves. Simple equation for a Japanese superbike. More Power, More Speed, Handling that's on a par (if different) and two thirds the price of a 999 and you don't have to be a genius to work out what's going to appeal to the masses more.

So yes, to compete in that market, Ducati can no longer rest on their racing laurels and they're going to have to produce a bike that can compete on equal terms with the Japanese - if the stats of the new ZX10 are to be believed, the benchmark is getting up to a pretty stupid 180 bhp. They won't be able to compete on price with the Japanese, but there are enough people willing to buy into a bit of exclusivety that it shouldn't be a problem (after all, some people buy Aston's when the comparable Jag is cheaper). Under those circumstances the V4 is the only way to go to get that sort of power (after all why would you buy a Ducati if it was just another IL4) and if they could do that with their superbikes they'd be back in the game - wouldn't it be great for Ducati to make the worlds best superbike.

At the moment they just make the worlds best V-twin sportsbike and a twin is never going to make the outright power of a four.

But, here's the thing - I LOVE V-TWINS and there are a hell of a lot of people - including me, that have bought a Ducati because of their V-Twin engine, as well as their desmo valves, dry clutch and all the other characterful traits that give them soul. So sorry Henners, I don't think the V-Twin has had it's day - when I bought my 888, I might have had a fleeting split second notion to get a Honda SP2 instead, but I would never have even considered a Fireblade.
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