Ducati Sporting Club UK > Sport > Trackdays & Race Schools > Quick turning

[desmojen]

Originally posted by Jools
Maybe forgeting about concious countersteering on the slower stuff is the way to go and just trust that I'll go where I look.

That's what I do, just concentrate on your body position, look where you're going , and the rest will come easy.
Glad I could be of assistance fella

[Andy Ibbott]

Hi Guys,

I agree that using the quick turn in slower corner is harder than in fast ones.
There is nothing wrong, by the way, with pushing and pulling, or even just pulling. Maybe you should try that? I think tension is a big issue here. Riders tend to brace themsleves for the bike's pending movement and then don't 'go with the bike' and then get more tense!

I'm curious with AndyB's comment below
"I would beg to differ concerning the comparisons made between road and race track riding, although there are a lot of similarities i dont believe this should be one."

I look forward to that.

[andyb]

Glad to see ive got you curious. Im not looking to criticise any of the teaching methods you employ, mainly because ive never done CSS.

However, i do think as in the case of this thread, people can get too wrapped up in things, like the use of the word Quick in relation to steering, and it can get a bit confusing or misinterpreted.

I think its about having a plan with a start point and a finishing point. How you achieve this does come from a variety of imputs between rider and machine.

Oh, and i do like the idea of you looking forward as thats probably the best thing anyone can do to determine their plan.:P

[Edited on 12-7-2005 by andyb]

[dickieducati]

as an additonal tip which helps me massively: if you are trying to speed up your turns and you usually get your knee down, the quicker you are turning the bike, the earlier in the turn your knee should touch down.

this is obviously really only for track where you can do the same bend every minute or two.

[Jools]

Originally posted by dickieducati
as an additonal tip which helps me massively: if you are trying to speed up your turns and you usually get your knee down

Knee down? Nah...you're 'avin a larf mate!

My avatar is about as close as I get to getting my knee down.

The problem is not the lean angle, I actually want as little of that as possible for a given corner speed so that I can use more lean to go faster. So I try to hang off the bike to use as little lean as possible although there are some nice grazes on both pegs (and not through binning it) that show that I'm very occasionally spending my full tenner on lean.

The problem is in the hanging off bit. At 5' 9" I've only got a 29" inside leg. The distance between the seat and the peg on an ST is quite large, so for me to brace my outside leg properly against the tank, I'm on the tip of my toe already. In order to hang off any further than you see in my avatar I would have to lift my foot off the outside peg (I know, I've tried it on the centre stand with someone holding the bike). I've tried doing this on track and just holding on by hooking my leg across the saddle.

This does a few things that all feel wrong. First, it twists my pelvis around the tank and it feels weird not being aligned in the same direction the bike wants to go. Second, I feel perilously like I'm just going to fall off the bike, not through binning it, but simply dropping off, so I end up supporting all my weight on my inside leg which then has to tense up instead of being nice and relaxed. Thirdly, it really upsets the stability of the bike because I'm not comfortable doing it and lastly it makes it a bugger to use my legs to climb back on the bike on the exit and I end up using my arms. All of this is not good, it feels unstable, so I don't do it.

I've had my knee down (genuinely, without it being followed by my arse) three times on the track. Twice at Netties Nook at Rockingham (which is also, strangely enough, a bogie 'lowside' corner for me - although I think I've cracked it now) and once round Chris Curve at Cadwell. I'm not overly fussed about the knee down thing because to borrow a phrase from my mate KeefyB "I don't get my knee down much, but I go round the outside of a lot of people that do"

[ericthered40]

Quick turning in slow corners differs in that the centrifugal force is just not there. When and if you push the inside bar the bike will drop in leaving your head and torso were it was. That’s the old moto X style. It’s the head and shoulder lead thing again. You have to get that moving first, commit to your line of site and the counter steering just seems to happen and you go were you look. With both arms bent so that you don’t run out of options through the bars you can counter steer all the way round to adjust your line, if were you looking and were the bike is going differ. If when you come off the brakes you’re off the bike to the inside before you initiate the turn the bike starts to turn as you slow down. If you came to a complete stop it would fall over.

I might be totally wrong but, I wouldn’t mind betting that with your low-side you got left behind by shoving the inside bar first. Then drooped in after your self, adding more counter steering impute and lode to the front tyre and probably not getting back on the throttle in time before the front gave up. or you had cold tyres

I have lots of questions to ask about counter steering in fast bends.

At a recent trip to Snetterton when riding round Coram bend I was hanging off Knee down and winding on the power but trying not to run to wide. I could feel the inside bar pushing back at me
even though I thought I was pushing back and pulling on the outside bar fairly hard. I was getting this feeling on every lap and it was the point at which I settled for the rest of the day. I know I could go faster but didn’t know what to do. Just push and pull harder? Do I need to look at the bike set up?
And the one I would like to know most of all did I wimp out or was something terrible about to happen?

Tin hat on

[dickieducati]

someone who knows what they are talking about will no doubt be along soon but for what its worth, once the bike is 'set' in the turn you should be doing very little with the steering and certainly not fighting with it. i dont ever feel i'm having to forcefully steer the bike when lent over and deliberately try be be very light on the bars so they can track the road how they want to. you should ideally be putting one steering input only into each turn.

[Andy Ibbott]

I totally agree with DickieDucati. Once set there is nothing to do with the bars unless you are fighting yourself or the bike has some serious set up problems.

This 'do nothing' principle I have used on bikes since I was taught it back in 1995 and in my old job with MCN it worked on all and every bike I rode, no exception. The more sport focused the bike the more important it was to have a light touch after the steering input.

Quick turning is just pushing (or pulling or both) the bar a little quicker, this does require a little more concentrated effort than slow steering but not much. (Unless you are on a four ton Springer Soft tail American thing)

But what is quick? 1 second, 3 seconds? 1/2 a second?
If you have never practised then a ‘little quicker’ is what we teach at the Schools. So you can see a small difference. Get used to that and the mechanics of it and then build on it. Another example of the basics at work.

Should you do it on the road?
Well what would you do now if a car pulled out in front of you?
Hit the brakes?
Hard?
Lock the wheel?
Not stop in time?
If you want to take avoiding action then you'd better learn this skill because it won't just happen when you need it most!

[Andy Ibbott]

Well I have to log off now as I have to get up at 4am to go to Ireland for a BMW track day.

Won't be posting until Thursday.

Andy

[ericthered40]

Originally posted by dickieducati
someone who knows what they are talking about will no doubt be along soon but for what its worth, once the bike is 'set' in the turn you should be doing very little with the steering and certainly not fighting with it. i dont ever feel i'm having to forcefully steer the bike when lent over and deliberately try be be very light on the bars so they can track the road how they want to. you should ideally be putting one steering input only into each turn.

I have only had this at Coram. I didn’t get it at brands anywhere.
It wasn’t a fight just a lode on the inside bar. It’s a long fast bend were you can run wide on the exit.
With no impute on the inside bar the bike would have run out before I wanted it to, so I was accelerating but still trying to hold the line in for long enough to make the exit.
I know what you mean about relaxing after the steering impute and rolling back on the throttle and the bike going were you want but round there it didn’t go were I wanted without this inside bar thing.