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  #21  
Old 17-Jan-2012, 06:29 PM
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DSC Member antonye antonye is offline
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Interesting that they do regional variations on fuel.
I would understand the Scottish Highlands getting something different to Cornwall, but not just the SW getting something different...


I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather,
than screaming in terror like his passengers.- Jim Harkins

Ducati 748S | Ducati Hypermotard 1100S | 600-620SS DesmoDue Racebike #111 <-- Sold!! | Avanti Race Parts
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  #22  
Old 18-Jan-2012, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve E
Really helpful advice ducatiz, thanks. I've just spoken to The Motorcycle Restoration Company in Essex and they seal 'loads of tanks' specifically for the reasons we are concerned about. Martin at MRC confirmed exactly what you said ducatiz, regarding preparation. Sounded like he had said it hundreds of times. 150 for a single coat and 205 if it needs a second coat + VAT. I feel sorry for the poor souls who have classic bikes with fiberglass tanks, he has some real sorry stories!

Might as well take my tank off this w/e and let it dry before taking it up to MRC. A distress purchase but I can't wait for Ducati to do something with more ethanol on the way soon.

I don't know that they will do anything more. Here in the states, they have taken the stance that the deformation is an acceptable variation in the performance of the part. That's my wording, but that's essentially it. Under the terms of the lawsuit, they'll only replace a tank that has significant deformation, and then only with a tank made of the same stuff.

I wonder what the folks at MRC are using for their coating since this is nylon and not fibreglass. It does not take adhesives well. There are epoxy formulations which are designed for it, but most of the traditional tank coatings will not permanently adhere (like any that are urethane based).

Your best option in my humble opinion is to use one of the epoxy formulations. Prep the tank well, which means dry completely, rinse with cleanser, dry again. And then double-coat using a proper reducer so it gets everywhere inside the tank.

I hope Ducati does something differently in Europe, maybe we in the states can benefit but as it is, the lawsuit did nothing that Ducati wasn't already doing (swapping tanks and modifying bikes).
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  #23  
Old 18-Jan-2012, 04:45 PM
DSC Member Steve E Steve E is offline
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I found that MWC were recommended on the Caswells website as an approved user/provider of their tank liner product. I have read that Caswells has been used by Ducati owners in the USA but perhaps I need to read up more before selecting a lining product. A rock hard, glass like liner (like Caswells) doesn't quite fit with a tank that can expand and contract. Perhaps sealing the inside will stop the tank changing size?

After what has happened in the states I can't imagine we will fair any better here in the UK. Not good PR for Ducati. We really need a permanent fix for this problem.

For UK Ducati owners I have now had a very helpful response from ESSO ...

-----

Thank you for contactimg Esso Customer Care.
May I assure you that any queries received by Esso are taken most seriously
and followed up as appropriate.

Upon receipt of your e-mail I have contacted our Product Quality Advisor,
please see his comments below.

There is currently no mandatory requirement for renewable fuel (such as
ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol).
Esso super unleaded petrol (branded Esso Energy Supreme) is ethanol free
(except in Devon and Cornwall and shortly Teeside) and we have no intention
in the short or medium term to add ethanol to the majority of our Esso
Energy Supreme.

We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of
ethanol in petrol to use Esso Energy Supreme - providing they don't fill up
in Devon, Cornwall or Teeside.

The 5% limit on ethanol content was endorsed by the The Society of Motor
Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) - the trade body representing the UKs
Motor manufacturers.
They did not believe that E5 would cause any significant issues (that is
not the case with E10).
We are not aware of any issues with Rover derived engines in any make
whether it is TVR, Land Rover or Rovers themselves - as stated earlier E5
is largely the only unleaded available throughout the UK and billions of
litres have been used across the UK and Europe in every petrol engine type
and make.

The proportion of ethanol in 95 grade unleaded in the UK is expected to
increase to 10% in the next few years to meet increasing legislated
renewables content, bringing us into line with both France and Germany.
This level of Ethanol is known to have an adverse impact on fuel tank
sealing in a number of vehicles types, certainly there is discussion on the
various TVR forums on E10 compatibility. Perhaps this is the source of
concern - we reiterate E10 is not currently on sale in the UK as a standard
or super grade.

When E10 does become available, the Government has legislated that super
unleaded petrol must be available at least until 1st January 2014 with no
more than 5% ethanol content.
It remains to be seen whether the Government will decide to extend that
deadline, because the introduction of 10% ethanol in unleaded in the UK has
taken longer than originally envisaged.

Finally, you may be interested in the regulations relating to ethanol in
petrol.
The RTFO was amended in 2009 and is listed under The Renewable Transport
Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009 Order 843
(http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...roduction/made).
This fulfils the requirements of the EU's Biofuels Directive of 8 May 2003
(http://ec.europa.eu/energy/res/legis...s/en_final.pdf),
and Directive 2009/28/EC of 23rd April 2009
(http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...16:0062:EN:PDF), which promoted the use of energy from renewable sources.

Yours sincerely,

Last edited by antonye : 18-Jan-2012 at 05:23 PM.
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  #24  
Old 18-Jan-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve E
For UK Ducati owners I have now had a very helpful response from ESSO ...

Nice work again Steve ... on a roll!
I just tidied the links up in your post so they work.


I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep like my Grandfather,
than screaming in terror like his passengers.- Jim Harkins

Ducati 748S | Ducati Hypermotard 1100S | 600-620SS DesmoDue Racebike #111 <-- Sold!! | Avanti Race Parts
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  #25  
Old 18-Jan-2012, 05:54 PM
DSC Member Steve E Steve E is offline
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Thanks Anotonye,

This is the link to Caswells Europe and the product description

http://www.caswelleurope.co.uk/gastank.htm

45 for the kit for two tanks but from what I've read you'd use all of it on a Ducati plastic tank anyway. Probably worth getting a borescope for 20 off eBay to check coverage inside the tank as well. I've not looked into the prep/cleaner as I think I'll probably go to MRC.
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  #26  
Old 19-Jan-2012, 05:47 AM
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ducatiz ducatiz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve E
I found that MWC were recommended on the Caswells website as an approved user/provider of their tank liner product. I have read that Caswells has been used by Ducati owners in the USA but perhaps I need to read up more before selecting a lining product. A rock hard, glass like liner (like Caswells) doesn't quite fit with a tank that can expand and contract. Perhaps sealing the inside will stop the tank changing size?

Epoxy sealers do not cure "rock hard" they actually remain somewhat flexible and the layer is very thin.

The only time I would be concerned about the flexibility vs the tank would be in a crash situation where the tank surface could change drastically. I'd assume failure of the liner in that situation. The good news is that the same procedure can be re-done if the liner develops a split or crack, and coated over. Epoxy is an adhesive and will stick to itself without much issue. You would just need to evaluate the damage and might find a tank replacement is warranted anyhow.

Quote:
After what has happened in the states I can't imagine we will fair any better here in the UK. Not good PR for Ducati. We really need a permanent fix for this problem.

I don't know your laws, here the lawsuit could have progressed to a better solution but as you might imagine, the attorneys running it aren't really interested in a solution, they just want to get paid.
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  #27  
Old 19-Jan-2012, 06:38 PM
DSC Member Steve E Steve E is offline
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Thanks ducatiz, good to know the sealer can flex.

I'm sure my tank is actually shrinking back down a little. I keep my bike in the dinning room next to the radiator which might help! Quite a dry atmosphere.

Anyway, tank off at the weekend and I'll measure it so I can track if it changes size.

I stumbled across his company in Japan make to very nice 'factory' looking alloy tanks for Ducati Monster and Superbike models ...

http://www.moto-works.jp/beater/index.html

Expensive at 1,400+ but they look like a Ducati Course product.
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  #28  
Old 23-Jan-2012, 10:07 AM
DSC Member Steve E Steve E is offline
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I got an eMail back from Shell this morning in answer to the question of ethanol in their UK petrol (is ethanol in both standard 95 and high octane VPower versions of their petrol?).

Unfortunately the email has a confidentiality clause so I cant repeat its content without risk of getting my knuckles rapped :-(

At least we know the facts. Any UK petrol provider can or will use up to 5% ethanol in any of their petrol products at any time but the high octane versions of Texaco, Esso and BP don't currently contain ethanol. Except for Esso in Devon, Cornwall and Teeside and BP in the South West.
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  #29  
Old 06-Aug-2012, 04:56 PM
jerryz jerryz is offline
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Ducati are now using a different plastic on bikes manufactured in Thailand PEX, talking to dealer here only Italian made models with PA6 tanks affected by gasohol so far and Thailand has 10% gasohol content in most fuels
experience here over last 4 years is that it also damages fuel lines , injectors , fuel filters etc etc even on new GASOHOL vehicles .
,my pal eddie has 2 BMWs RT and 1000rr both ethanol damaged fuel systems ,
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