998R... will it ever run properly???

[chillo]

Got my bike back from 6k service+belts+DP slipper clutch+carbon air tubes+pipercross air filter and new cpu fitted:o

has my misfire been cured? errrr NO!:(
Its like the bike is being switched off/shut down for a fraction of a second then back on again:mad::mad: this is driving me nuts now. Bike is booked back in for diagnostics but i'm having ride it like its got a 9k rev limiter:mad:
I've no idea what to do now???

The DP slipper clutch is great though, bang it down a few gears and drop it in! Really smooth and a bit quieter! I get a bit of a binding type noise when i set off though sometimes???

And to top it all i had a 999bp for the day and it handled better than my 998R:o
Completely blew me away, would have been quite happy to keep it!

[Ray]

Chillo,

Don't give up, have sent a U2U, do you really want to chop the r in for an ugly bike?!!

Ray

[DJ Tera]

What we need to do is make up a 998 style body kit for the 999! :lol:

[DJ Tera]

Well I have access to the equipment to design it (3d laser scanners etc) just not the talent! If any designers are interested let me know, a QB Moto GP fairing shouldnt be too hard to alter, once we have the bike and the bodywork scanned in it shouldnt be too hard to adapt it.

[Rattler]

......stick with it mate, you know it makes sense!!!!

Surely they must be able to fix this misfire though!!
Aren't they obliged to do what it takes to fix it, even if that means changing all parts until they do? - engine, etc!!
I'd get on to Ducati UK if the latest efforts don't work.

Best of luck...

Tim

[ducatimad]

My 2002 748s is really running and handling well, but I spose I could swap it for your bad handling, misfiring heap of sh*te but only if you clean it!:lol::lol:

[chillo]

my bike doesn't handle bad at all, got it pretty much set up! but it just amazed me that a 999 without all the ohlins handled better! not by much, but enough! :o

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by chillo]

[redline]

Not a chance of that bike runnung well chillo not with your chubby ass on it.

How's things bud?

[Jon]

Chillo if they can't fix it take it I know a man who can. he's name is John Hackett.

As for that binding sound when pulling away, that's clutch slip. Get that all the time with the one I've got a mo. Changing to Bucci with carbon/ali plates tomorrow.

I'l let you know what I think.

Jon

ps what plates did you plum for in the end.

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Jon]

[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Jon]

[sps955]

I feel for you mate but you have to just try a process of elimination with any problem.;)
I will admit when i first went out on my 998R it was not setup for the roads around me but have now got it setup brilliantly.
The thing was solid from new,almost lost it the first time i took it out,the back end was bouncing about all over the place and stepped out on more than one occasion.I find setting the bike up is one of the best parts of owning a new bike.
I will agree with Jon about John Hackett,still reckon he is the man to take the bike too.
Good luck with curing the misfire.
Contact Ducati uk and see if they have heard of anyone else having the same problem.Also tell them what you have already done to try and cure it.The guy to talk to now is Tony Crawley.
I know that Hackett has four 998R's he services on a regular basis.
He has maybe got an idea of what to look for.

[DAVE HARRIS]

I was speaking to mike who now works at bob hills and he said ther were a couple of instances on 998rs where the crank was shimmed incorrectly (to tight) causing the crank to distort under load when hot, putting the reference sensor air gap out of limits I will try to speak to him today to confirm if the simptoms are the same if so I will email uou his contact number

dave

[chillo]

Its getting really fustrating but i will persevere.
The bike has had the crank position sensor re-set, cpu replaced, all wiring connections and switches checked and a couple of relays replaced.
Its like all power is cut for a split second then back on again. Like when you rock the kill switch on an line four to make it backfire!?

I hope it will be ok on the track day as i don't want it to missfire whilst i'm cranked over around Gerrards!!

The bike now feels a little snatchy now i've got a pipercross airfilter in?

I've got the bike set up more how i like it now and it does handle sweet but back to back with a 999 it isnt quite as effortless!!
I gone up 20mm on the rear ride height and 2 clicks comp/rebound and 1 turn preload on the front. At the back just a click of comp/rebound.

Jon,
just using ducati plates at the moment but will get a set off JHP.
Whats the best brake pads to get??
Bendix MF?

[Edited on 25-6-2003 by chillo]

[Felix]

As several previous discussions on this subject showed, there is no such thing as the "best" brakepads. Brakes are a system. A suitable pad depends on a lot of factors, including personal preference. For instance, I didn't think much of the much liked EBC HH pads on my old 916 with stock discs, calipers, mastercylinder. On my race bike, which uses a radial m/c, GP calipers, and race discs, I really like the Bendix carbon matrix pads for track riding. Not sure I would run them on the street. Some people rave about the performance friction pads, but they are too rich for my blood, somewhere north of a 100 quid, as compared to Bendix at around 25 quid.

[Monty]

Chillo stick with it mate. I have had ECU problems on my ST4S and Ducati have supplied a new one which is the same as the 998/999R unit. I am told the bike now bogs down if you gas it at 4000rpm which is bloody handy on a sports tourer! It is still at JHP and they hope to sort it on the dyno. The new ecu is different to the old one but Ducati state that it is the replacement-oh well.

John

[DJ Tera]

powercommanderpowercommanderpowercommander ;)

[Ray]

DJT,

If there is a problem with the inputs or outputs from the bikes ECU that is causing it to cut out or stop it reving beyond 9k then I would be amazed if a powercomander fixed it.

Chillo,

Is the pipercross filter similar or the same as the JHP one? Got JHP on my bike fitted with DP carbon airtubes and the mesh removed from the nose cone. The bike runs a little lumpy/fluffy at very low revs under 3k, but real smooth above to 11k plus. The bits were fitted at pro twins before I owned it.

If the chance to dyno it comes up I will let you know the results.

Ray

[Felix]

Ray, it's the same one. Purportedly, they worked together in developing it.

[DJ Tera]

Ray your probably right, I was replying to montys post, having said that poor chillo has tried everything (i would have demanded a new bike by now) so anythings gotta be worth a go!

[998Addict]

One of the lads I work with bought a new 03 Mille. With both he and I riding it separately, he experienced exactly the same thing.

The bike was back and forth to the Aprilia dealer several times, with the ECU, Sidestand Switch, Ignition Barrel and Tilt Switch all being replaced. Still the same symptoms.

Matey then checked rsvr.net and found a lot of people with a similar problem. Turned out to be a DataTool Evo alarm being mounted directly to the subframe, instead of using a cushioning system. This causes the unit to resonate at certain (higher) revs and gives the same effect as a misfire.

Apparently this is a common problem, and despite the alarm being installed by a registered DataTool installer, wasn't picked up.

Long shot Chillo, but is this a pattern with your symptoms?

[chillo]

Thanks for suggestion but dont have that type of alarm!

It seems to misfire more the faster i go i.e more air forced into the airbox. When i had the bike dyno'd a month or so ago it ran to 10250rpm and that is of course in still air. (apart from the cooling fans)
It will not rev past 9k in top but will rev through it in 5th if i just keep it nailed stuttering at 9k ish.
It will rev through it easier in lower gears to a point were i can't really tell in 1st or 2nd. I'm going to try tonight if i get chance in 1st.

Is it just a coincidence that it backfires when higher quantites of air are being forced into it???
The lads at Italia are convinced its a electrical problem?????



[Edited on 25-6-2003 by chillo]

[DJ Tera]

Maybe a power commander would help then?

[998Addict]

Chillo

I understand you might not have the same alarm, and this might sound like I'm pushing a theory you want to discount, but could it not be alarm-related as well?

Look at the symptoms:
1. Respected people think its electrical
2. It sounds electrical
3. It's not so bad on a dyno (less vibration)

Sorry to press-on about this, but couldn't it be worthy of investigation?

[Matthew Smith]

Take it to John Hackett, he should be able to sort it and it should'nt even cost you.

If he can't then it's your decision, i would send it back and get the new 999R than put up with it...

[chillo]

998 check your u2 inbox mate.
Went out on it tonight and it will rev cleanly in 1st and 2nd to the rev limiter.
Misfire starts happening in 3rd and 4th getting progressively worse the faster i go.
I've never revved it hard in the first gears mainly because it revs so dam fast its like a turbo!:D
If JH is at the track day on Tuesday i will try and talk to him then?!

[Edited on 25-6-2003 by chillo]

[Jon]

Chillo. Spoke to John hackett today about your prob. He's word's were, "that aint right" tell him to bring it down its covered by warranty. As for brake pads I think Felix said it all. I run bendix as reco'ed by PFM, I like em. Just got the Bucci slipper with carbon plates. J.H took time out to put it together for me and explain the workings and what will go wrong if put together incorrectley.

Jon

[Shazaam!]

Since new, Chillo's 998R will not rev past 9,000 rpm in 6th gear (indicated 160 mph), but will stutter through the 9,000 rpm point in 5th gear. In 4th and 3rd gear it revs through the 9,000 rpm point easier, and easier still in 2nd and 1st. When the bike was dyno'ed, it ran cleanly to 10,250 rpm.

The way he describes it is, it's like the bike is being switched off/shut down for a fraction of a second then back on again. It misfires more the faster he tries to go. It's like having a rev limiter set at 9,000 rpm.

To date, the CPU and a couple of ignition relays were replaced, the crank position sensor re-set, and all wiring connections and switches checked.

I believe there's a simple explanation.

The reason that the misfire problem decreases with gear ratio is that cracking the throttle wide open in the higher gears places more load on the engine than when you're in a lower gear. A top gear dyno run places even less load on the engine because the bike is stationary so there's no air resistance loading.

As you open the throttle, a larger mass of air and fuel is admitted into each cylinder, yet it ends up being squeezed into the same combustion chamber space. As a result, air and fuel molecules are crowded closer together and so the fire ignited by the spark plug spreads faster. The more rapid march of the flame away from the ignition point means that the engine then needs less ignition advance.

The timing settled upon for use in the CPU ignition map is one that doesn't produce too much detonation on full throttle at the engine's torque peak, when cylinder pressures are highest. On Ducati superbikes the highest cylinder pressures and peak torque occurs right around 8,500 to 9,000 rpm. Does this number sound familiar?

Further, the fuel/air mixture is hardest to light off when the cylinder pressures are the highest during full-throttle top gear acceleration at the peak torque rpm. If the spark is inadequate to jump the plug gap, you'll get a misfire.

Ducati uses the same coils and wires for all its models, even for the higher-torque 998R so just normal manufacturing tolerances could make these ignition components marginal under the worse operating condition, the one that you've identified exactly, 9,000 rpm in top gear.

So there's your problem.

The solution is to upgrade the OEM ignition components.

You can reduce these misfires if you can increase the size of the plug gap and still reliably maintain the intensity and duration of the electrical arc across the gap. A highly-compressed fuel-air mixture is difficult to ignite, so a larger gap increases the opportunity for fuel molecules to enter the gap and a longer duration, more intense spark allows for a wider window of time for, and likelihood of ignition.

But, increasing the plug gap places higher demands on the sparkplug wires and ignition coils because it takes a higher voltage to fire a larger gap. The coils need to robust enough to supply an adequate spark kernel and the plug wires need to be able to transmit this electrical energy at the higher voltages needed without failure of the conductor or insulation.


Plug Wires

The stock spark plug wires are constructed with a stranded core covered with an EPDM insulating jacket. Like most wires, the conductor itself will last a long time, but the insulation will start to degrade after a couple of years from engine heat which is why most quality aftermarket wire is insulated with silicone rubber.

I recommend replacing the stock sparkplug wires with a set of Magnecore wires. Magnecore #2549 wires for a Ducati superbike cost $67, but other aftermarket suppliers also offer quality EMI suppression wires.


Coils

Ducati’s use an inductive ignition where coils are charged with 12 volts and then apply a high voltage to the sparkplugs when signaled by the igniter. The typical firing voltage is 8–10,000 volts, with higher firing voltages needed for a high compression engine. Once the spark jumps the gap, it only requires several hundred volts to maintain the electric arc while the coil discharges.

The main advantage in using an inductive system is that you get a relatively high current, long duration spark (2,000 microseconds) that works very well for low speed, lean mixtures and partial throttle applications. The main disadvantage is that because it takes a finite amount of time to charge a coil, and at very high rpms there isn’t enough time to fully charge the coil between firings. Fortunately, Ducati street bikes don’t rev high enough for this to be a concern.

Stock coils on early Ducatis can be improved upon by installing aftermarket coils such as those made by Dyna, Accel, or Nology. Their primary advantage is that due to the larger physical size of the coils, the duration of the spark is longer. An intrinsic limitation of aftermarket coils with more windings is that they take longer to charge and discharge, so they have less and less time to cycle as rpm increases. Therefore, their available secondary voltage drops (faster than small coils) as rpm increases.

Fortunately, the newer stock Ducati coils are quite good given that they’ll fire a 0.044 inch plug gap even though the factory recommended gap for standard plugs is around 0.024 inch. Consequently, there’s no demand for aftermarket coils for superbikes.


Ignition Amplifiers

Another way to fire a larger plug gap is to increase the operating voltage of the stock coil.

One product, the Evoluzione ignition amplifier increases the primary voltage to the stock Ducati coils from 12 volts to either 16 volts or 18 volts (user selectable). The way a coil works is that if you put in 12 volts (primary) and get out, say, 12,000 volts (secondary), then if you put in 18 volts you will get out 18,000 volts. Again, this requires coils and wires in good condition.

Evoluzione recommends for best results that you run a 0.060-inch (!) plug gap instead of a 0.024 stock gap on a superbike, the larger gap being the key to getting a stronger spark and increasing the overall likelihood of a combustion event.

One reservation that I have about ignition amplifiers is that they could cause overheating and premature failure of the stock coils or wires. This reliability consideration has to be balanced against improved performance. An independent test by Road Racing World magazine on a GSXR 1000 saw only about a 0.2 peak horsepower improvement. Again, the main benefit here is throttle response.


Spark Plug Gaps

So, if you’ve got good plug wires and coils (and maybe an ignition amplifier) then you can fire a larger plug gap.

If you use conventional sparkplugs, start with the recommended gap and try opening the gap up in 0.002 inch increments. You should note a progressively smoother throttle response if not more power. When the bike begins to lose power (misfires), go back 0.001 - 0.002 inch and this will be your optimum gap.

As a good rule-of-thumb, if you go more than 0.008 inch over the out-of-the-box gap you won’t maintain parallel surfaces between ground and the center electrodes. So if you reach that point, change to a plug that starts at a higher gap. The NGK dash 9 series starts at a 9 mm (0.035 inch gap), for example.


Platinum and Iridium Spark Plugs

The initial reason this type of plug was developed was to extend plug life due to US EPA-mandated exhaust emission system low maintenance requirements, not because they offered any improved performance over conventional electrodes. They incorporate electrodes made of harder materials that erode more slowly and consequently don’t need to re-gapped as often.

The big benefit to having platinum or iridium as an electrode material is that the harder material erodes more slowly and consequently allows you to reduce the size of the center electrode and still have a long-lifetime plug.

But remember, a smaller electrode will initiate an arc at a lower voltage.

Consequently, you should NOT run these plugs at the factory recommended gaps. If your coils and wires are weak then a smaller gap will reduce misfires, but should be applied only as an interim measure.

NGK and Denso pre-gap their Ducati application iridium plugs to 0.035 inch. This should be considered a MINIMUM gap for this kind of plug. Their smaller electrodes fire this larger gap at about the same voltage as a conventional plug fires the factory recommended gap - with one added benefit - a strong spark kernel across a larger plug gap = improved throttle response.

Consequently, dyno testing shows a performance gain with specialty plugs only when their intrinsically lower arc-over voltage has allowed users to increase the plug gap above that possible with conventional steel electrode plugs. Try increasing the gap beyond 0.035 inch for further improvements. You should be able to go to 0.040 inch on a new superbike.

Said another way, platinum or iridium plugs in your Ducati will give you worse performance than a conventional plug unless you use a larger gap than is recommended for the steel electrode plug equivalent. I have seen repeated examples of poor Ducati running and throttle response problems cured by replacing platinum or iridium plugs that were gapped too small (i.e. at the 0.024 in. Ducati recommends for conventional plugs.)



So I recommend first switching to NGK iridium plugs gapped at 0.035 out-of-the-box. If that doesn't clear up your misfire, replace the ignition wires with Magnecore units. The ignition amplifier is likely unnecessary but could be an option.

[Rattler]

[nelly]

Live and learn..........
Shazaam..........respect :o

Chillo, that makes a lot of sense.
JH knows these bikes like no other. Getting a hold of him at the moment though is a 'mare but has to be worth doing.
If you want to play and can't get down to Coventry, give us a call??

[Monty]

Chillo, I can confirm both John and Rick Hackett will be at the trackday.

John

[Damo748]

I can honestly say that that is one of the most comprehensive answers that I have ever seen!!!

[chillo]

Thanks for advice shazaam! I will follow up on it. I think the bike had new plugs put in as part of the service i will check to see what has been used.
Hope to try and seek help from jhp on tuesday then! We could be getting somewere??

If anyone wants to add anything to shazaam's post please feel free.:D
I agree it does make sense!

[DJ Tera]

What more could anyone possibly add to his post?! :lol:

[Shazaam!]

Now that you mention it weeksy, it does scare the crap out of me that I may be someone else in disguise!

[Felix]

Doesn't the 998R use the surface discharge plugs, i.e. no adjustable gap? Not to take away from Shazaam, but I'd be amazed if Chillo's problem is down to plugs.

[chillo]

just spoke to Italia and they have used 'ducati' champion plugs.

???

[nelly]

IMO............bad. I can't get on with Champion plugs at all. Never had a good set, car or bike.
NGK or Denso :D
Might be worth a swap to some different plugs??

[Felix]

There was a thread on the old board (I think) about someone looking for the champion plugs and a discussion ensued about which is best. Might be worth reading. My RS uses the A55V, which are the surface discharge plugs. I couldn't stop them from fouling and switched to Denso Iridium race plugs, which work very well for me. It's certainly worth checking the plugs to make sure the are soiund and have a proper gap, as Shazaam suggests. But, I remain skeptical about that being your problem, Chillo.

My advise, as others, bring it to John Hackett. He is THE expert. If he can't sort, you need to get a replacement bike.

[chillo]

Took the bike down to a local independant bike shop on saturday for a dyno run. This is were i had it dyno'd before. Wanted to see where the pipercross/jhp air filter had any changes to the power curve. Now the bike has been misfiring more since i got it back from last weeks service.
Had a word with the guy and told him it feels quite snatchy low down and that i'm having a problem with a misfire.
Ran it up on the dyno and it wouldn't go past 9k in top on the dyno, whereas it did before?
But if you used less then about 60% throttle it would gradually pull round without a problem?
The bike's fuelling is all over the place, running very rich low down hence it feeling snatchy, then ok through the midrange and running lean up top.
??????
Is it just a fuelling problem? or could i have another duff cpu even though its a new one?:alien:

[Edited on 30-6-2003 by chillo]

[ziggi]

... this must be the biggest let down ever. I can't imagine spending all the money on a 998R and it not working properly, and it seems like you've done all you can. Surely you've got to Ducati UK now and get them to personally sort it out. The flagship model (as of 8 months ago) and no joy. It's got to be done under warranty now. I would kick up a stink at the dealer and call Ducati UK get a replacement or a 999R !

[skidlids]

don't know much about the 998R but I was talking to my mate Deano a little while before he crashed his at Darley on Saturday (Broken Collarbone and probably loss of his 3rd place in the SoT Championship) and he said he had a few problems when he first fiited a race ECU, he couldn't even get it to start, it was sent back and another supplied, again the same problem so he phoned Alan at AJ Performance, after Alan had made several phone calls he called Deano back with a routine of swithching the ignition on and off, pressing the start button etc and afterwards all was fine the bike ran properly. Although yours does start I was wondering if it was stuck in a get you home mode or some thing similar. Also wondering if your fuel pressure was OK.

[lapman]

Chillo,

I'll have a look around and see if I can find my standard 998r CPU. As I have a different one for 54mm system. I will be at the track day tomorrow, give me a shout.

You'll know my bike, as I'll have a ventura rack on the back on top of a cheap plastic seat unit.

And the kitchen sink

lapman

[nelly]

Tough break Chillo...........
There's something in what you say makes me think it could be the throttle sensor??
The CPU uses the info from that to determine the throttle opening. If it's set wrong and showing a higher voltage, hence wider opening, then the fuelling would be heavier than needed. The top end leaning off, could be the sensor going out of range??????
Not sure, but it's worth a shot?
Talk with JH tomorrow

[chillo]

roll on tomorrow!
I reckon a session on an inertia/load cell dyno would be a BIG help.

[yellowisfriedegg]

you should have just kept the 999 :lol:

[chillo]

i'll keep the 998 for now!:D

spoke to JH at Mallory yesterday and some of his lads had a look at my bike.
Plug in a Mathesis machine which straight away picked up a CPS error: meaning it could possibly be that CPS is faulty, or a wire connecting it is faulty/loose etc.
Hope to get my bike down ASAP to get fixed, they would have done it for me yesterday but hadn't brought enough bits with them and to be fair the weather wasn't ideal!
Not sure if their is a difference between Mathesis software and the handy little machine they had?? Don't know how this would have been missed unless the software isnt as good??? hmmm...

[sps955]

Stick with it mate.
Then you will realise why they are worth so much.:o
Just changed the gearing on mine,one tooth less on the front,one tooth more on the rear.:lol::lol::lol:
Frightening is how i would now describe the acceleration.
Got to be very carefull in the first three gears.:o
Who needs 175mph anyway.

[lapman]

Chillo

did you ever get your bike sorted?

Lapman