View Full Version : Desmo Due racing 2005
There will be details in this month's Pronto of a new race series that we are trying to run for next year.
The idea is to have a cheap simple formula based on 600/620 monster's and SS's-minimal modifications to keep the racing cheap. This will be for paid up club members only-we already have the first entry-well done to Tony Perrin-TP996(he'll probably enter as 'Muppet Racing':lol: )
John
[Edited on 7-10-2004 by Monty]
dickieducati
07-Oct-2004, 13:50
well if tony's in it should attract more interest as last place is already sorted.:o
Steve M
07-Oct-2004, 13:51
Great idea
Best of luck with it
Brings back memories of the Pro Am series, but with Dukes.
Will be good to watch.
:burn:
Steve M
07-Oct-2004, 14:08
Originally posted by weeksy
what do you mean WATCH ... you're riding in it Steve :)
:o
Originally posted by dickieducati
well if tony's in it should attract more interest as last place is already sorted.:o
I plan on attaching a LARGE bungee cord to the back of your bike Dickie to help me stay with you and sling me past on the straights :D
Unless of course you're so gay you're not going to enter?
dickieducati
07-Oct-2004, 14:23
wont be any difference in bike power so i may be clipping onto you. what is the weapon of choice going to be then faired ss or monster???
Originally posted by dickieducati
wont be any difference in bike power so i may be clipping onto you. what is the weapon of choice going to be then faired ss or monster???
There's different schools of thought on that one ... I think that if you get a monster you have access to a later engine, an injected one. Whereas I don't think they had injected 600SS's - only the carbed animals.
But you know, it's all down to individual preference etc.
I don't really know what I'll do yet. I just thought I'd get in quick while the gettings good.
ChrisBushell
07-Oct-2004, 14:39
Folks,
More details are available from myself :
Chris.Bushell@ducatisportingclub.com
The main aim is to keep a lid on costs and by the same token power, whilst allowing a lot of fun. The amount of power that you can get should still see a few heart stopping moments out on track, they will be well into 3 figures down a decent straight..
The aim of doing it through the Club is that it is a step up from a DSC trackday and hopefully you will be with the same people. We are looking at 4 days in the 1st year with two races per day; something that we felt most of us could get past "she who must be obeyed".
The bikes will still be eligable for trackdays and as you cant cut the frame about, you can always put it back on the road at the end of the year and flog it.
Early entries should get to choose their race numbers.
Whereas I don't think they had injected 600SS's - only the carbed animals.
(I think!) - 620SS for the 2003 model year only.
ChrisBushell
07-Oct-2004, 14:46
Main thing is that you can do more to an early one on carbs (inc 674cc big bore kit), but it is going to cost you less to buy. If you go injected 620 then the starting price will be higher and there is less that you can do to it.
Current wisdom is that chassis wise there is probably not a lot in it, handlebars are free, so it is going to be more about ability of the rider and the bguest1 st-up of the bike, than a specific frame.
Yes fork internals and rear shock are free.
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 14:47
Sounds interesting as most of my racing is more about having fun these days I could well be interested once I find out more info.
I did consider entering Mini twins last year on a 620SS but the rule book made it impossible to compete with a SV650.
So will be interested in the rules regarding machine mods as I like to tinker and put my years of experience to use.
Also I could probably enter a 620SS in the North Glos Mini twins championship, probably not going to beat the SVs but hey they race at Donington, Thruxton, Silverstone, Pembrey, Darley Moor and maybe a few more next year.
Kev
Cool...I would love to have a crack at this. What with all the expense I've got next year, I doubt I will be able to afford it even on the cheap...
But if I could, I've already got my race bike sorted out LOOK HERE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=9919&item=2492556159&rd=1) a P-reg carby 600 SS that the owner reckons makes 110 Bhp...:lol::lol::lol:
Still, if it did make 110 Bhp it would make a nice change...me having twice as much power as all youse boys instead of half as much.
:rodent:"Mwah ha ha ha"
rockhopper
07-Oct-2004, 14:59
Hmmm, interested ish!!
There would have to be a lid on the costs involved though. A flash rear shock and fork rebuild could easily eat up £1K.
Rattler
07-Oct-2004, 15:09
......aye, aye, Weeksy!!!
Can I put a 620 engine in the 996R and use that?
Tim:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Originally posted by Rattler
......aye, aye, Weeksy!!!
Can I put a 620 engine in the 996R and use that?
Tim:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Stupid boy, Pike...
Put the R engine in a 600 monster and use that.
Nattyboy
07-Oct-2004, 15:16
This sounds great fun..wish I hadnt flogged my 600 monnie to rockhopper now !!
Myself and rich llewellin went in the fast group at the UKMOC track day at mallory on our 600 carbd monnies..full of S4/S4R's, and we were going round the outside of some of them at gerrards !..you be surprised what decent lap times can be achieved on these ickle dukes..its all about carrying your corner speed, and the single disc set up is more than upto the job on the earlier bikes..
Nat
[Edited on 7-10-2004 by Nattyboy]
Stupid boy, Pike...
Well I have to say that I genuinely laugh out loud quite rarely, but you caught me unawares there Jools :lol: . I'm getting some strange looks from my colleagues now.....
Rattler
07-Oct-2004, 15:30
Originally posted by Nattyboy
This sounds great fun..wish I hadnt flogged my 600 monnie to rockhopper now !!
Myself and rich llewellin went in the fast group at the UKMOC track day at mallory on our 600 carbd monnies..full of S4/S4R's, and we were going round the outside of some of them at gerrards !..you be surprised what decent lap times can be achieved on these ickle dukes..its all about carrying your corner speed, and the single disc set up is more than upto the job on the earlier bikes..
Nat
[Edited on 7-10-2004 by Nattyboy]
Is that with rearsets on and the like? I'm keen on this, but don't want to go the way of the 996R and buy lots of bits for a 620.
Anyone post a list of what would be minimal reqs to be a trackbike and then a list of how mad you can go with these?
Tim:frog:
Rattler
07-Oct-2004, 15:30
Originally posted by Rattler
Originally posted by Nattyboy
This sounds great fun..wish I hadnt flogged my 600 monnie to rockhopper now !!
Myself and rich llewellin went in the fast group at the UKMOC track day at mallory on our 600 carbd monnies..full of S4/S4R's, and we were going round the outside of some of them at gerrards !..you be surprised what decent lap times can be achieved on these ickle dukes..its all about carrying your corner speed, and the single disc set up is more than upto the job on the earlier bikes..
Nat
[Edited on 7-10-2004 by Nattyboy]
Is that with rearsets on and the like? I'm keen on this, but don't want to go the way of the 996R and buy lots of bits for a 620.
Anyone post a list of what would be minimal reqs to be a trackbike and then a list of how mad you can go with these with add-ons?
Tim:frog:
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 15:39
Changes to shocks, forks and bars sounds good
How about pipes, K&N filters and either Dynojet or Powercommanders as per Dynojets listing.
Rearsets or Jack-up plates, Steering dampers.
Thats about in line with what we were allowed to do under Proddy reg rules at the 2002 TT.
Then could I fit a 916 fairing to a SS
Would wets be allowed
Could we fit a SPS or wavey disc and 4-pad calliper
I haven't even finished this years racing (Silverstone this Sat) and I'm already planning next years
Kev
Nattyboy
07-Oct-2004, 15:45
No rearsets Tim, but did have to replace the pegs !! Ground clearance is an issue with std monnie cans/peg setup, but a cheap way of getting round this is to fit some 851/888/SS hangers/pegs (same frame), and fabricate a simple bracket to support the silencers.
Depending how swift you intend going, youll probably want some adjustable forks (popular mod is to bung in the ssie forks which go right in I think...or 916 ones which will require some machining work on the yokes) Popping a heavier oil in the std unadjustable jobbies does help though (and I cant see it being a big issue on flatish tracks...)
If its of interest, I do have some tatty carbon microns off an SL for a SS (which will fit a monnie too)..and some 888 hanger assemblies.
Yours full of jealousy (its gonna be a hoot!!)
Nat
Rattler
07-Oct-2004, 15:54
If there's too many mods to make to even be a reasonable spec, then I won't bother.
I'm in no hurry to start changing forks, exhausts and suspension etc, I'm already dong that with the ZX!!!!
But if you're able to buy a bog-stock Monster and within reason, just change a few bits in order to get to ACU spec and allow ground clearance etc then I'm interested.
Looks like we'll get a few of the UKMOC joining the DSC too!!! - which is a good thing.
Tim
I don't believe you are allowed to change the forks? Just the internals, is how i read it - I could be wrong ...
Nattyboy
07-Oct-2004, 16:02
Tim..I reckon you could pick up a tatty monnie for £1ksh, and youd only need to spend a few bob on second hand parts....if only to sort out the ground clearance issue.
Whilst suspension changes would be nice/better....I dont think there really that necessary on a bike knocking out 50hp !! To be honest..squirming/bouncing around mallory was half the fun anyway !!!
Youd also be surpised about the amount of second hand bolt on billy bits there are in the UKMOC forum..I picked up a neat bottom yoke mounted steering damper for £50, and brand new rearsets for £100 (which were way too good for the monnie so I slung 'em on the 888 !!!)
Also, good thing is, because of the relativley low power , these things will give you PLENTY of warning before they spit you off !!!
Cheers
Nat
[Edited on 7-10-2004 by Nattyboy]
ChrisBushell
07-Oct-2004, 16:05
Folks,
Whilst you you cant change the forks, yes the internals are free but how much of an advantage are you going to gain. By the same token how much are you going to need an Ohlins rear shock?
A downloadable copy of the initial regulations will be available from this site in the morning.
Remember the idea is that you shoud be able to go racing without having to get the cheque book out to move yourself up the grid. We dont know yet but one should be able to get a bike that is well set-up, on good tyres and scare yourself and others without too much trouble if you have some ability.
Just look back at what JohnnyB was doing with his CB500 at Rockingham and I beleive that that has less than 50hp.
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 16:06
Originally posted by rockhopper
Hmmm, interested ish!!
There would have to be a lid on the costs involved though. A flash rear shock and fork rebuild could easily eat up £1K.
Paul you most be joking, i would be looking at under £600 and if Maxton can revalve and respring the standard shock then it should cost less than £500.
ACU approved bellypan would be needed so if I could adapt my 916 race fairing to fit that would save some money.
Oh no...this thing has already spiralled out of control already
Changing forks? Shocks? Pipes? Powercommanders? Sorry, that seems to have lost the plot to me... next thing you know you'll have big-bore kits, carbon wheels with slicks, sets of wets and inters.
And this is supposed to be a low cost option to encourage Joe Ordinary like me to go racing?
Tim is right, a bog-stock monster or SS is the way to go. Modifications to stop the pegs or cans decking out, all the ACU reg compliance and that should be it IMHO
Road legal tyres that have to last for the whole day, so that the rich boys aren't banging on a fresh set of Rennsports for qualifying and each race. Maybe even control tyres like the CB500 boys and R6 cup. 207RR's, Diablo Corsas, even Metzler MEZ4's as long as everyones even stevens.
Steve M
07-Oct-2004, 16:09
Agree with very limited mods.
If too many are allowed, then you might as well use 900SS's - no ground clearance problems and fully adjustable suspension etc. without spending anything.
Any exhaust, any footpegs.
Internal mods to original forks.
Any rear shock. or better still allow any mods to the original (assuming they are the rebuidable type)
No engine mods.
Off you go - let battle commence.
[Edited on 7-10-2004 by STEVE M]
Aww, come on guys. I've just gotten off the phone to Ducati Corse and hired an engineer to build me a monster.
Is that not allowed?
:D :lol:
dickieducati
07-Oct-2004, 16:12
Originally posted by STEVE M
If too many are allowed, then you might as well use 900SS's
yes but thats not at 620 is it.
all the rules are already set out so you may as well wait for tomorrow to read them. sounds like there is good interest already though.
Nattyboy
07-Oct-2004, 16:15
Road legal tyres that have to last for the whole day, so that the rich boys aren't banging on a fresh set of Rennsports for qualifying and each race. Maybe even control tyres like the CB500 boys and R6 cup. 207RR's, Diablo Corsas, even Metzler MEZ4's as long as everyones even stevens. [/quote]
Control tyres are a great idea....how about cheng shins..they used to enable me to crack on a bit on my MBX 50...:lol:
Nat
dickieducati
07-Oct-2004, 16:17
from what i can remember they have to be road legal tyres but wets are allowed too. could be wrong.
I'm with Timothy; I was getting quite excited reading this.... until the talk of spending tons of wedge on the bikes to get in front.
It's a great idea tho, hope it takes off.
ChrisBushell
07-Oct-2004, 16:20
Boys, please calm down this is only a commercial.
No one should be able to get over 70bhp out of one of these under the proposed rules and the costs involved in doing that will be containable. Yes we are allowing overboring, but in part that is to allow old carb bikes to keep up with 620 injected ones.
From the earlier comments, it would appear that one can do a lot of damage to more powerfull bikes, with just a standard one, remember that we have not restricted leverage on the bars, ground clearance or the things that help on the twisty bits. I dont think that anyone is going to go through a set of tyres in a day and they are restricted as to what type of tyre they can run.
Ears have pricked up, and i'm listening. Don't bother me being at the back of the grid, as long as my riding improves.
2 me, the basic the bike can be the better, like the R6 cup as an example already used above.
Well .. I can't afford to spend loads of money on it but I'm going to do it anyway. Come on you lot, it won't get off the ground if it's not supported.
I plan on getting some ground clearance for it and after that I'm not sure really. Clipons and rearsets maybe, to change the riding position?
Rattler
07-Oct-2004, 16:24
What tracks is it likely to be run on?
Steve M
07-Oct-2004, 16:27
Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by STEVE M
If too many are allowed, then you might as well use 900SS's
yes but thats not at 620 is it.
all the rules are already set out so you may as well wait for tomorrow to read them. sounds like there is good interest already though.
I know mate , I just meant that if too many mods were allowed then the bike would end up costing more than a 900SS which doesn't need the mods, so the whole point of using the 600's would be wasted.
As you say, lets see the rules first.
Nattyboy
07-Oct-2004, 16:42
nice that tis' provoking such a discussion mate :) well pleased with the route the DSC has taken for this.
Bloody well done to the MT and comittee for having the balls to carry this one forward. [/quote]
..Just wanted to echo Weeksys sentiments really....
Ive not been a member half as long as you lot, but its nice to see, that despite the clubs obvious success, the MT dont get complacent and are thinking of ways to re-energise the club..
A very innovative idea is this...fair play to you guys...
Cheers
Nat:burn:
Desmondo
07-Oct-2004, 16:56
I could be interested in this too. But all I'd do is buy a bog standard bike and race the fekker. None of this tarting up business, maybe some rearsets for a bit of clearance but that's it.
Webteam
07-Oct-2004, 16:59
rules and regs in Word doc.
Webteam
07-Oct-2004, 17:08
and as a pdf................
Webteam
07-Oct-2004, 17:12
Originally posted by Desmondo
buy a bog standard bike and race the fekker. None of this tarting up business, maybe some rearsets for a bit of clearance but that's it.
ummm would n't seem right you riding a bike that looks original and new and clean and tidy and.....maybe thats the difference between tarting up and sluting up?? :roll:
Ian
Webteam
07-Oct-2004, 17:19
its all gone quiet, everbody reading the small print, getting onto the lawyers and race team managers....maybe not. :)
ChrisBushell
07-Oct-2004, 17:30
Sorry to disapoint you folks, but this will be ACU affiliated, so yes Steve you can get your signatures out playing with the DSC.
Thanks Ian for getting the rules up and I hope people have many happy hours poring overt hem.
Please drop me a mail if you have any questions and i will do my best to get back to everyone over the weekend
So - how do we obtain an ACU license without having to join one of the other racign clubs, ie, Bemsee, DP etc?
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 17:46
right I've just read the rules and thats the type of rules I like to go racing with so the feelers have already gone out to try and locate a suitable bike, Now all I have to do is have a word with the powers to be at North Glos and see if they will let me run a Ducati to that spec in the Mini Twins series. Will try and do that Saturday at Silverstone.
Originally posted by skidlids
right I've just read the rules and thats the type of rules I like to go racing with so the feelers have already gone out to try and locate a suitable bike, Now all I have to do is have a word with the powers to be at North Glos and see if they will let me run a Ducati to that spec in the Mini Twins series. Will try and do that Saturday at Silverstone.
I'd be interested to see how you get on with that Kev - can you post your findings?
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 17:54
Just one point why the full Department of Transport Licence requirement as under ACU rules a rider that does not hold a full bike licence can obtain a ACU Novice licence that limits them to a bike with a maximum capacity of 600cc.
Some members may be riding restricted 33BHP bikes (or even 350SS) that could well be 600 Monsters or SSs and would be excluded under this rule from entering.
Obviously doesn't apply to myself or most of us in the club, just seemed a strange rule .
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 18:00
Sure will Tony
Luckily I've been a member of North Glos since 1997 and know most of the comittee there. Its good to get the rules this early as it means I can take a few copies along to Silverstone to give to people I know to give them time to discuss it before finalising next years race program.
Currently they run a Sound of Thunder race that includes the Mini Twins at most meetings this means about 15 to 18 SoT bikes and 4 or 5 SV650s, this means at most venues there is at least a futher 12 places or more vacant on the grid not earning them any income.
Kev
Kev - I heard a rumour that clubs can't run mixed grids from next year, which I presume would put the mockers on Mini Twins and Sound of Thunder running in the same races. Do you know anything about that?
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 18:59
I heard something the other day in passing but wasn't sure what it applied to.
Several of the North Glos comittee are fairly high up in the ACU, one is quite often Clerk of the Course at BSB meets, I will try and find out more this Saturday.
Not sure what they would mean by a mixed Grid as the Open class has every thing from 250cc two-strokes to 1300cc Superbikes, Powerbike is usually made up of 600s and 1000s, Streetstocks run the 1100 class at the same time as the 650 class (another class a 600/620 could run in) and the 125s run with the 400s
Interesting all thats needed is a free flowing race can and Power Commander http://www.ducati.com/images/my2003/grafico_SS620Sport.gif
[Edited on 7-10-2004 by skidlids]
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 19:55
I would think it would be a ideal way for a track novice to get out on the track and race.
My first track outing was on my CBR600 race bike at Mallory on the ACU training day, it wasn't compulsory but as I would be having my first race the following month I thought it a good idea.
My 2nd ever track outing was at Pembrey with North Glos Race club. In at the deep end in the 600 supersport practice, followed by two 600 Supersport races with lads that had won at the Manx, others that raced in the Natioal MCRCB championship etc. Then they had the Novice race which I felt more at home in. So you don't need to do trackdays before you go racing all though they will help protect your ego, there is very little to stop you getting a ACU Licence and going racing even 14 year olds do it.
desmojen
07-Oct-2004, 20:39
Oh, I wish I could afford it, this could be the start of something good! :bouncy:
think it sounds like a great idea to me just a shame im getting married next year and acnt afford to join in, maybe 2006 if its still going
psychlist
07-Oct-2004, 21:25
Where can I get a 600ss for under a grand?
skidlids
07-Oct-2004, 21:30
Originally posted by psychlist
Where can I get a 600ss for under a grand?
Usually see a few around that price over the winter, depends what condition they're in. Couple of years ago I picked up one that had been stood unused for about 18 months.
Soon had it up and running but spent more on tidying it up into a decent bike, but in the state I got it it would have been ideal for turning into a race bike.
Nigel C
07-Oct-2004, 22:16
I'm so tempted to do this but i can't afford to run two dukes so the 748 would have to go :(
already seen a monnie up for sale near me for £1500
raced a few years back but let my acu licence expire i had lost my novice jacket so does that mean i'd have to start all over again as a novice
Depending how long ago Nigel you should be ok-I'm sure the ACU will have records. Now me I let mine expire over 30 years ago so I guess it will be a novice vest for me-kind of hard to think of being a novice after 40 years riding bikes............;)
John
Time to order up those carbon or mag wheels, 3 sets should do it, tyre warmers, carbon bodywork. Big bore kit.
Ohilins fork internals, ohlins rear shock.
749r swing arm.
AP or brembo calipers
Slipper clutch.
Titanium exhaust system.
Dyno time to sort the modified injection system.
You maybe don't need all of the above but it will sure help if you wanna win. Doubt that anyone would splash that much cash but when you see some of the kit that turns up to clubs races you have to wonder. Not really within the spirit of the rules either.
Ray
Desmondo
08-Oct-2004, 11:28
Exactly Ray, it's meant to be a cheap form of racing which is why I said that if I do join in then I'll keep the bike pretty much stock. I don't care if I'm sitting at the back all the time, if it's cheap racing then it's fun racing.
Rattler
08-Oct-2004, 11:33
I'm with you Jamie, if I'm in then its on a bog stock Monster with minimal mods to get to ACU spec and ensure ground clearance and we're off!!!!
Tim:frog:
That's my thinking.
Apart from the 944cc kit ....
Desmondo
08-Oct-2004, 11:44
Hell, I might even keep standard pegs just for a laugh :lol:
So anybody ridden a monster before? I've not even sat on one.
Rattler
08-Oct-2004, 11:45
Nope, not me, looks like we're gonna find out though!!
dickieducati
08-Oct-2004, 11:46
Originally posted by tp-996
Apart from the 944cc kit ....
you'll need it ;)
no, i'm with you lot, really would love to do it but cost is obviously an issue as don want to have to sell the 999 just for a bit of fun racing. going to realistically cost it up over the next week but pretty much taking a few bits of and maybe cans will be the way i would go. at least i've got an excuse for coming last then:D.
"yeah well, mines only standard mate, only in it for the fun thought you would be further ahead to be fair with all that kit, etc etc" ;)
Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by tp-996
Apart from the 944cc kit ....
you'll need it ;)
no, i'm with you lot, really would love to do it but cost is obviously an issue as don want to have to sell the 999 just for a bit of fun racing. going to realistically cost it up over the next week but pretty much taking a few bits of and maybe cans will be the way i would go. at least i've got an excuse for coming last then:D.
"yeah well, mines only standard mate, only in it for the fun thought you would be further ahead to be fair with all that kit, etc etc" ;)
That's what I like about you Dickie NOTHING!
:lol:
Yep, mine will be pretty standard, ACU reg stuff, try and sort out the clearance.
My first time on a Monster too! I was looking at autotrader last night and the MCN section on the train on the way home. Hrmmm ...
I'm with Rattler and Desmondo. Although the regs allow people to spend thousands on their bike as Ray suggests, if I could afford it next year (which I can't, maybe later) I would be doing it on a bog standard bike with the required ACU mods and tyres that would last for at least half the races.
My steed of choice would be an SS rather than a Monster though. Take it from me as someone who owns a bike with not much power, tucking in behind a fairing is essential on the straight bits. You lot that ride much more powerful machines probably wouldn't notice the effect that wind resistance has on a bike with limited power. On my ST, on a straight like the start finish straight at Mallory, or Park Straight at Cadwell, there's a 5-10 mph difference between sitting bolt upright and tucking in. On an ST, even sitting bolt upright, you're still behind the fairing. On a monster, you're just sitting there like a damn great airbrake, even if you scooch down.
On a 600, with only 60 ish bhp to play with you need all the help you can get.
Damn...I can't believe I've given my game plan away
dickieducati
08-Oct-2004, 12:00
yeah may well be turing to look at the same bike.
seller will think they have hit the jackpot as we both stand there trying to out bid on another:lol:
Desmondo
08-Oct-2004, 12:02
Ah, Ron Parkinsons was closing down. Wonder if they've got any cheap monnies they want to get shot of :D
I see where you're coming from Jools but for some reason I think I'd liek to stick with a monster. Just think it would be something different and fun to ride for me.
dickieducati
08-Oct-2004, 12:06
did think about the ss monnie comparison, but am guessing most will be on monnies and could be better for offering/receiving spares etc if needed. also availability of parts in general must be better for monnies.
I'm going to get a Monster because it would be good for Ange as well - she has renewed motivation to get her license now.
What are the thoughts on injected versus carbed models?
dickieducati
08-Oct-2004, 12:11
i would be going for at 620 sie myself
Depends on how cheap I can get one for but that would be my preference.
I'm also going to go for a run! :D or lots of them :D
dickieducati
08-Oct-2004, 12:17
seem to be around 3k from what i can see
Yep - 3k
I'm going the way of crash bungs too methinks.
skidlids
08-Oct-2004, 12:48
From what I have read above I would suggest setting a budget for the bike.
I was thinking along the lines of £2K to a max of £2.5 with my current financial resources.
So that may get me a accident damaged later model 620inj Monster or SS and allow me to get it to meet ACU regs but nothing else, apart from any bits I can make myself.
Alternative is to get hold of a 1995ish 600SS and be able to spend about £1k on it. which would include Race Can, Dynojet kit, K&N, Reworked forks and rear shock (Maxton), SPS Disc and 4 Pad calliper, Aeroquip hose. 996 master cylinder.
Hopefully make my own rearsets or Jackup plates along with crash bungs. Then try and fit 916 fibreglass fairing to save buying one and give me the ACU required catch tank/bellypan.
Its still a fair outlay for 4 racedays but if North Glos would let me race it in Streetstocks and MiniTwins I could be looking at a possible 12 to 14 race meetings a year, plus a couple of trackdays on it.
As my ZXR400 uses the same size Rims/rubber and will take a 320mm disc I would see if they could be adapted to fit to give ne a set of wheels for wets.
All that And It still wouldn't make me any faster but at least when out on track I wouldn't be thinking this and that could be better and I wish I'd done so and so to it.
Why bother with all that you may ask but I actually get more enjoyment from sorting the bike and getting it ready than I do from racing it and without a TT entry next year I need something to tinker with.
Spare wheels and wets? Metzeler make wets that fit the rim sizes - Rennsports and Supercorsa's fit as well, although Rennsports don't have the 60 profile front according to the website - only 70 but Supercorsa's do.
I'm assuming that these tyres will be everyones choice?
skidlids
08-Oct-2004, 13:03
Would Probably go for Diablo Corsas or Bridgestones latest. 70 profile works well on the SS but wouldn't mind trying the 65 profile Pirelli.
I have had a long chat with Chris this morning about the provisional rules, reading what a lot of you have said, and since the basic idea is to avoid 'cheque book' racing ( and Ray's scenario) there may be some changes made.
This is for discussion so please don't all jump down my throat.
Wheels-we may alter to be 'standard Ducati wheels applicable to the model'-that'll fix the carbon/marchesini brigade.....
I have even suggested that we set the rules to be for 600 carbed engines only rather than allowing the 620ie versions. The 620ie's weren't released until late 2003 so will be much more expensive to buy, they also make about 10bhp more than a 600 and rev 1500 rpm higher-I have seen them down at about £3000 but no lower, whereas you can pick up a 600 monster/SS from about £1500.
We have also discussed using a 'control' tyre to keep cost's down.
At the end of the day it will be YOUR race series so the rules will be what the majority want.
What do you all think?
John
Desmondo
08-Oct-2004, 13:09
Ah man, you guys are getting too complex for me already :lol:
Get a shitty old monster, chuck on some Rennsports/Supercorsa's, race it. I can't be bothered with spare wheels, wets, mod this, mod that.
Originally posted by tp-996
What are the thoughts on injected versus carbed models?
£4k vs £1k!
Just received Level 1 Clearance from the missus. :D:D:D
Budget for the bike/entry going to be about £2k, so it'll be a bog standard 600SS with Diablo Corsas and a bit of a diet (much like myself!).
Any chance we could make it a combined rider/bike weight limit?? Not convinced I can loose 50kg without surgery.....
Ali
dickieducati
08-Oct-2004, 13:15
Originally posted by Monty
I have had a long chat with Chris this morning about the provisional rules, reading what a lot of you have said, and since the basic idea is to avoid 'cheque book' racing ( and Ray's scenario) there may be some changes made.
This is for discussion so please don't all jump down my throat.
Wheels-we may alter to be 'standard Ducati wheels applicable to the model'-that'll fix the carbon/marchesini brigade.....
I have even suggested that we set the rules to be for 600 carbed engines only rather than allowing the 620ie versions. The 620ie's weren't released until late 2003 so will be much more expensive to buy, they also make about 10bhp more than a 600 and rev 1500 rpm higher-I have seen them down at about £3000 but no lower, whereas you can pick up a 600 monster/SS from about £1500.
We have also discussed using a 'control' tyre to keep cost's down.
At the end of the day it will be YOUR race series so the rules will be what the majority want.
What do you all think?
John
buy 25 of whatever model is decided, competitors pay whatever is cost for the equpment for the year and when you turn up at the race meeting you are allocated one of the bikes then off you go.
I think the idea of keeping it to 600 carby models is pretty much a must, otherwise it's likely to shift into two classes
Those with the money to buy a 620 are also going to have the money for bolt on goodies, wets. etc, etc, etc.
antonye
08-Oct-2004, 13:21
Originally posted by dickieducati
buy 25 of whatever model is decided, competitors pay whatever is cost for the equpment for the year and when you turn up at the race meeting you are allocated one of the bikes then off you go.
Bikes are drawn at random for each race - keys in the middle style.
All bikes are prepped and maintained by one team of mechanics.
The only problem is where to buy 25 identical machines!
I've already found myself a 600SS for £650.... :D
JasonBoswell
08-Oct-2004, 13:25
Here, here, John. All the talk of wets, 620's and so on was starting to put me off the whole idea. I have a very limted budget, and frankly theres little point if at the end of the day the rider with the biggest wallet/smallest family is going to take the laurels every time.... i think most of the people who enter would like to think that they stood at least some chance of scoring a point or two.
i would support all efforts to rule that the bikes on the grid are as simialr as possible - but of course if some spanner-head has the wherewithall to spend long winter evenings tinkering ad tuning then good luck to 'em...
"but of course if some spanner-head has the wherewithall to spend long winter evenings tinkering ad tuning then good luck to 'em"-errr that'll be me then.:lol:
Mind you I already have a little lady that demands much attention and only the finest things in life-like Avgas-at £1.20 a litre and castrol A747-at £17.00 a litre, and that's before we get onto new pistons and rings at 300 miles etc etc. If I go monster racing it will be lucky to get a wipe over with an oily rag and few litres of unleaded.............:lol:
John
Originally posted by tp-996
I'm going to get a Monster because it would be good for Ange as well - she has renewed motivation to get her license now.
What are the thoughts on injected versus carbed models?
The injected really is so much smoother. My 900 carb is very lurchy and after riding CK 1000ie it was a different bike
I disagree with you 100% on that Weeksy - the club is a Ducati club not a Monster club (otherwise we might as well suggest the UKMOC do this) and the idea is that that bikes of a similar engine size compete so all models with that engine should be allowed (Multistrada 620 anyone?).
Also Monty, the 620 engine was introduced for the 2002 model year, so available late 2001. I think you are overestimating the cost - I know of a mate who bought a 620 Monster (not the S version) last year on an 02 plate which cost £2,500 (and that was without haggling and with six month's warranty left) and it was perfect, so if you shop around a year later, should be easy enough to find one for that sort of price. Maybe keep an eye on the UKMOC for sale section...
AndyVR6
08-Oct-2004, 14:30
Very interesting plans!
Which club(s) are being approached to guest the series?
A pal of mine is co-founder of the Bemsee Minitwins series, and I remember the many iterations their rules went through to get something workable. Policing low-cost regulations is tricky - minitwins for example have a bhp limit which was widely critisised at first, but I think they've stuck to it and actually dyno-test the podium-finishers.
Compression ratio - yup, I guess you can check that easily enough.
Standard engine internals - whilst well-meaning, this is impractical to check.
Non-standard wheels - this potentially bumps the cost up by allowing mags; why not restrict to standard? Brakes too, although perhaps a little less to be gained in swapping those
Road-legal tyres + wets = can get by with 2 sets of wheels. IMO this is preferable to moulded-only (=1 set of wheels, as in the Yam past masters class) which is really difficult in the wet.
Addition but not removal of frame material - not sure of the logic here, as you'd have difficulty making any weight saving without compromising integrity here, on the other hand getting rid of a few lugs can be useful when fitting alternative bodywork.
Non-standard induction - whilst this may allow older tackle to be made competitive, surely it opens the door for expensive extra power on later models. This is one thing that _can_ be checked easily, unlike engine internals.
I know it sounds depressingly legalistic, and keeping within the spirit (as well as the letter) of the regs _should_ be the important thing here ... but it's important to have something clear and workable to avoid arguments later on.
One useful thing to consider is granting special dispensation to run a particular machine eg. if the regs said standard induction but someone wanted to run a non-standard older model, that could maybe be allowed on a case-by-case basis if deemed within the spirit of the regs and not unfairly advantaged.
cheers
Andy
Hey I could be up for this - would it be all right just to put monnie 620 badges on my s4r? Sure no-one will notice!!!
So what's it better to get a 600ss or a monnie? Could I get a whole bike ready to race for under a grand?
Must agree though I think it should be bog standard bikes with pipes, rearsets and decent tyres.
Dont punish me for saying this but it not the bike its the rider.Just because a bikes got a fairing doesn't mean it goes faster round bends. If you could have seen the monster track day when Natty boy on a 600 was beating and mixing with fast group S4's and S4r's. Let the classes mix.
You'll see who can ride. I dont need a fairing until 120 mph then its just uncomfortable thats all
Albie I think you've got it wrong mate. If I do well it's me, when I go crap it's the bike - simple :lol: :P
I'm happy to run carb's if thats what the MT decide but seeing as Ange will have this bike when I'm not racing it I would prefer to get a 620ie. I may even commute on it a bit instead of the 996.
Apart from adding the bits and pieces to meet ACU regs and trying to gain a bit of ground clearance I think we should keep them as standard as possible - keep the cost down. I do, however, think that people should have the option of running wets if they choose.
WeeJohnyB
08-Oct-2004, 14:45
Well here's my ten pence worth, with two years of racing a one make seies.
It's a great idea and well done to the MT for trying to get it off the ground, I think you'll struggle to get a full grid, but I'd love to eat my hat.
This will pretty much be limited to current Ducati people - else why would you enter when there are other established series you could do - MZ, CB5, Hornet, SV's - why would one want to race a bike that has the perception of being hard to work on and unreliable. Don't shoot me down, that's what people think.
Which club are we going with? You could link up with New Era in the Hornets and CB500 class as there is room on the grid and I know numbers are diminishing - all cheap racing seems to be going towards SV Minitwins.
Dump the current regs, sorry guys but they've really not been thought through. Despite what ANYONE says, once you're on the grid you want to do the best you can. There are plenty people with money on this site and money wins races. Imagine the scenario and someone will do this....Ohlins shock, damper and fork internals set up by Kais, slipper clutch, rearsets, full titanium exhaust, top spec brakes, 675cc and 80bhp with a perfect curve after hours on the Dyno, dyno jet? powercommander, K&N filter, new super corsas every round, upgraded swing arm, dymags, full fairing, etc etc and that's without going 'internal'. This lot will transform a monster and it'll trash anyone on a standard bike . How are you going to know what people have done internally? People WILL cheat, sorry, but this is racing, not a gentlemens club.
That little lot is the lower end of 600's level expense and lots of time in the garage - who is it aimed at - someone who knows Ducatis well and likes to spend hours fettling or people who want to race? This is mega expensive racing and why only 4 rounds for your money - it doesn't make any sense to me.
Go for Monsters only and not the 620i. Control tyre plus wets. Ground clearence for safety, so risers, (no rearsets) and exhaust changes only, then all you can do is add a race can, belly pan and lock wire. Remove all road gear obviously That's it - we're all on the same CHEAP bike.
I've ridden a Monster on track - great fun up to a point:mad:
Racing a CB500 which is cheaper than even the Monster regs I've suggested above will set you back £6,000 for a season. If you're serious about racing, there are plenty of current CB500 race bikes up for sale at the end of the season. If you want to just have as much fun, but on a Ducati with the DSC, this will be a brilliant series. I really hope it gets off the ground.
I've not decided what I'm racing next year. I may stay with Monty on the TZ (if he still wants me), go back to CB5's, go to Minitwins, or the favourite at the moment, step up to 600's. If I can get on the same grid with my CB500, I'd love to be part of this.
Just my view.
WeeJohnyB
If it's the 620 and 600's, then 600's must be allowed to be modified to compete with the extra 10bhp. So then, really I think it should be 600's only. I can't afford next year to get a 620 and race it. Whole ethos is low cost etc, then 600 option is it really.
Don't think it matters if it's a monster inc or an SS, let rider choose what he prefers. I reckon as well we should ask WJB (as an example) to give extra advice to the novice novices.
Mind you, still not mentioned it to Shazz yet :burn:
Anyone signed up yet? Apart from Tony, whom i trust has got #21 or #12!!
[Edited on 8-10-2004 by flanker]
I've asked for #12. Both because Bayliss currently runs it and because I play inside centre (second 5/8th whatever you want to call it) and the number for that position is 12.
TP - 12 :D (at least I hope so).
:alien:
I would like to do more races than are on offer here, which is why I was interested to hear what skids came up with after speaking to NG. But I think most of you know I was looking to go racing next year regardless - the series I was looking at closely was 400's and minitwins, although I couldn't figure out how to attach the bino's to my visor so I could see everyone up front :(. However, I recognise that the 4 days will keep the costs down for those stretching just to be involved. I wouldn't like to see it put out of reach of those people - keep the grid numbers up as much as possible. Also, IMO the MT has a duty of care to make this accessible to as many members of our club as possible. Accessible racing - GREAT idea from the MT, we just need to refine it. My hearty congratulations for proposing it, fully in the knowledge that it would be debated in this fashion.
[Edited on 8-10-2004 by tp-996]
Just race all classes. There wont be much in it I reckon except the 620ie's more hp stock. And points in class like superbikes and privateers.
Indeed, but in those 4 race days, there will be 8 races... Not that bad really. And maybe in 2006 an extra round could be put in?
I think it is fundemental that costs have to be kept low, and bikes run near as standard as possible. Only the obvious safety regs needed. As Tony says, as acccessible as possible to all members, so guys, lets keep it there, lets keep it simple.
I think the class should be monster/ss 600's only, least next season. And as true to standard as possible, only the obvious safety and ACU required mods.
skidlids
08-Oct-2004, 15:32
Originally posted by lizzie
I disagree with you 100% on that Weeksy - the club is a Ducati club not a Monster club (otherwise we might as well suggest the UKMOC do this) and the idea is that that bikes of a similar engine size compete so all models with that engine should be allowed (Multistrada 620 anyone?).
Also Monty, the 620 engine was introduced for the 2002 model year, so available late 2001. I think you are overestimating the cost - I know of a mate who bought a 620 Monster (not the S version) last year on an 02 plate which cost £2,500 (and that was without haggling and with six month's warranty left) and it was perfect, so if you shop around a year later, should be easy enough to find one for that sort of price. Maybe keep an eye on the UKMOC for sale section...
Well said lizzie
£2500 and you should be able to put something on the track.
Although a 675 big bore kit may be allowed it wouldn't be on my shopping list as Streetstocks and Minitwins have a 650 limit and the money for the conversion would be better spent on other mods first.
Rattler
08-Oct-2004, 15:54
Originally posted by WeeJohnyB
Go for Monsters only and not the 620i. Control tyre plus wets. Ground clearence for safety, so risers, (no rearsets) and exhaust changes only, then all you can do is add a race can, belly pan and lock wire. Remove all road gear obviously That's it - we're all on the same CHEAP bike.
WeeJohnyB
I'm with WJB on this.
I'm not sure I agree with Lizzie, the Monster is a Ducati and therefore meets with the DSC ethic, the 600SS is only being considered because its a 600 too????
Perhaps as momentum grows with this a poll of who would run a 600SS over a monster could be run. Would someone not compete because they couldn't run a 600SS?
By restricting it to a single make and type it would IMO be closer racing and the point about spares swapping/availability is also well made.
I may well be in a position where I could build a top spec' Monster fitted with all of the best bits that ebay can offer, but I don't want to.
Get a non 620i Monster, get some ground clearance, get some cans (for the sound alone), get it past scrutineering and lets get laughing!!!
Tim:frog:
Thanks Lizzie for your correction, I thought the 620ie had been going longer than that but it said on a website I was looking at that it was introduced in late 2003..............
If you can indeed get a 620ie for £2,500 or less then it removes that argument. The big bore kit won't fit the 620 and was put in to even up the power figures, the 620 also has a 6 speed box (apart from the dark's which still have 5).
We didn't want to limit it to monster's only since the 600SS is a nice bike and is reasonably available-the 620ieSS is however favourite but is a VERY rare beast. Get yourselves an old SS or monster and have some (reasonably) cheap fun. The idea behind having only 4 rounds was again to keep the cost down-4 rounds will cost you about £1,000 with entries, fuel, getting there etc so was felt to be within even a fairly limited budget, and as long as the bikes are not to highly modified they can then be used to get the wife/partner through a bike licence, or even used to commute on. "What did you come to work on today?" "Oh I used my race bike........." How cool is that?? :lol:
John
"The consequences of this is that people of ability but lacking in funds/machinery are going to end up battling for no more than 7th-15th place for example, This is going to make them very very disheartened. "
Ask JohnyB Steve-we have been between 10-15 BHP down all season in GP250's, that's why we are now racing in the 'pre 95' class.
John
Cheapest 620 anything I can find is £3,150 for monster. Way out of my budget.
Having never raced I'm probably asking a dim question, but is there any scope for three races/day? If not, how many practice/qualifying sessions are we looking at?
Finally, if you remove the SS range then you're going to be further penalising the tall/pie-lovin' racers. The spares issue isn't that bad as a large portion of the bike is interchangeable.
Having said that, I'd be in for WJB's solution of a one model series on the grounds it'll be cheaper and probably more fun.
Ali
Ali,
Have a look on here Bike Trader (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/BIKES/)
Do a search on both 600 option, and the monster option, with 600cc for the exact cc. Do it as a national search.
Flanker: Have done but still can't find a 620 for under £3k, only loads of 600s.
Matters not. I'm happier blatting around on a 600 that I don't have a loan for!
WJB's makes a lot of sense. This is an ambitious undertaking. Getting the rules right is critical in containing costs. However, this is very difficult to achieve as Andy relates from the MiniTwins example.
As others have said, it is highly desirable in my mind to have the club attempt such an undertaking. I'll definitely be along to watch and support the races, provided they are not all down south.;)
As WJB says, racing is expensive even when you don't crash as I have plenty of times. My racing season was plenty expensive even when you take the money spent on the bike out of the equation.
If I get out there again next year, it'll be on the bike I got. I can't afford in money or time to run second race bike. However, this series should be aimed at people trying to satisfy a couriosity or to get started in racing. I would be great if it accomplishes that.
Who will host this series?
uncledunnie
08-Oct-2004, 17:00
I have a cheque for £200 burning a hole in my desk....
I'm afraid I know little about this racing mularky but can't wait to give it a go.
I know even less about 600cc 2 valve Ducati's.
But having read what everyone has said and the proposed regs,my laymans opinion is as follows:
Chassis
Why can't we chop off all the unwanted bits?
Change the swing-arm - don't see why not - no idea how that may significantly help me? - so leave it stock
Suspension - regs seem fine to me
Brakes - regs seem ok
Wheels - stock wheels only
Fairings - can you fit one to a monster?
Tyres - control tyres only, supercorsa's or similar - seem to plenty around part worn
Suspension linkage - see swing arm above?
Catch tray - ok
Minimum weight - ok subject to chopping off the odd brackets etc
Engine
Overbores - why? if we're running 600's lets run 600's?
Compression - as regs
Valves etc - as regs
Clutch - as regs
Internals - as regs
Inlet stuff - as regs - I asume that any overkill will be restricted by valves etc.
Exhausts - as regs
Alternator etc - as regs
Fuel - as regs
Riders
all as the regs
So all that leaves me to ask is what would be a more competive beastie - the monster or the SS.
I don't mind which, just hurry up and make your bloody minds up so I can go and buy one before the bargains all go :frog:
The guys and gals who own monsters and ss's must think christmas has come early with us lot about to hit the market place:lol:
dickieducati
08-Oct-2004, 17:21
as far am i'm concerned this is meant as a stepping stone on from trackdays so very much for virgin racers to dip their toes in therefore cost is obviously an issue. the cheaper it is the more people will be interested and the more likely it will be a success. same goes for bike spec. i will try to give it a go whatever the rules but their is clearly more incentive the more equal the bikes can be. no matter how much someone says "i dont mind coming last" "just want to out there" etc,
it will clearly be somewhat disconcerting going out there spending a fair bit of money knowing you're going to get you arse kicked every meeting.
imho make it as close to standard as posssible as said by others one model, cans and rearset etc if wanted. everything else bog standard.
image the thrill a virgin racer (like myself) would have if he had a genuine chance of a top ten finish in a race or dare i say it a podium. :D
So all that leaves me to ask is what would be a more competive beastie - the monster or the SS.
The theory would be SSs on the fast circuits (fairing) and monster on the twisties (slightly better power/weight). As I've already mentioned, some of us would suffer from a slight aerodynamic disadvantage on a monster. :)
I'm sure such concerns pale in comparison to whether you've got a cold, had a good nights sleep, ridden the track before, etc...
How about super stock rules?
I dare say, that even if the rules allow for spending lots of money on the bike, at this level, the only reason you're going to get to get your arse kicked is that you're a riding too slow!
Rattler
08-Oct-2004, 17:34
Any ideas as to what tracks it'd be on?
Originally posted by Felix
I dare say, that even if the rules allow for spending lots of money on the bike, at this level, the only reason you're going to get to get your arse kicked is that you're a riding too slow!
If I do this, I shall have extra padding on my derrière! :frog:
I'll answer a couple of your questions Uncledunnie.
Overbore-this was to even up the 600's with the 620ie-the 620 makes 63bhp, the 600 about 55, so bore the 600 to 675 and voila more horsepower. Restricting the mods by having to have standard valves, cams, inlet ports, heads etc will stop to much money being spent in the pursuit of horsepower.
Chassis-why not cut bits off?-to keep it as standard as possible.
Make your minds up?-go buy a 600monster, you'll be safe then whatever happens.
John
[Edited on 8-10-2004 by Monty]
Tracks:
We are currently negotiating with New Era so it could be on the tracks they run. Since this would be a limited series it wouldn't start until probably May so would most likely be, Cadwell, Mallory, Snetterton and possibly Oulton.
John
Regs say you can add a fairing. so nowt to stop you putting a dustbin on a monster.
Ray
skidlids
08-Oct-2004, 19:09
Originally posted by ali
The theory would be SSs on the fast circuits (fairing) and monster on the twisties (slightly better power/weight). As I've already mentioned, some of us would suffer from a slight aerodynamic disadvantage on a monster. :)
I was planing on fitting a 916 fairing on a monster if thats what comes along at the right price. But I'm not doing anything until the rules are confirmed, after first reading the rules I thought excellent the right way to go racing.
Obviously others don't think so from what I've read, but after all my years in the club racing scene including the CB500s when they were on the BSB race program and with TT proddy rules changing on a yearly basis I can assure you this is a good set of rules.
Forget CB500s they have slowly died a death since there original conception last CB500 Race I saw WJB was 2nd and he was also the last 500 home which is the same amount that started that race. Minitwins runs a tight rule book that favours SV650s effectively making that a one make series.
I like the idea of mixing SS's with Monsters and 600s with 620s, variety adds to the spice of it all.
As for costs lets get real here, tomorrow I will be racing the 748 that I have for sale, I will be in the same race as the CSC 996RS a tuned 998R, well sorted Aprilia RSVs etc, etc.
Now bike is for sale at £2800 basically as I am racing it, you do not need to spend loads to go racing, OK I don't expect to come anywhere but I don't care, I'll be out there racing and If I can finish ahead of the odd bike that should be capable of beating mine then I'll be happy and I will still be learning.
I reckon there a bit too much testerostone around here already :(
Let's go back to the original purpose behind this. One of the main reasons we do trackdays is so that those who are trackday novices can put a toe in the water and get some experience. It's nice that it also appeals to lots more experienced trackdayers and also that it's an enjoyable social event, but those latter things would happen anyway, which leaves the novices happy to go out to play secure in the knowledge that they are 'amongst their own'.
The idea behind this is one step up. It's aimed at people who aren't racers, to give it a go and have some fun. It's about inclusion, not exclusion. Given the level of interest amongst people who have never raced, it seems to be well received. So sorry, WJB and Weeksy and other racers, it's not aimed at you (much as you'd obviously be welcome); you are already quite comfortable with the CB500 or whatever class, racing amongst others who aren't 'your gang'. It's not really about winning it's about getting the experience and if you like it, continue with it or maybe move up to a more 'serious' class.
So I think this is the wrong question:
Originally posted by RattlerWould someone not compete because they couldn't run a 600SS?
How about if you phrased the question 'would someone who already has (or even has some other use for) a Monster 620 or a SS600/SS620 and fancies a go then sell their bike and buy a M600 so they could have a go? I very much doubt it. So that would exclude my £2,500 620 Monster riding-mate and a fair number of the possible UKMOC-ers who might be interested. So the cheque already written might have to be torn up.
Now I know booger all about the mods being discussed, though I know the rules have already been given a lot of thought in order to keep the cost down, but it seems to me when there's a fair chance that getting a full grid will be difficult, it would be daft to reduce the potential pool of players.
And anyway, isn't this all about getting your excuses in early ;)
And I reckon it would be much better from an aesthetic point of view to have Monsters v SSs.
Is the series going to be for 1 bike, 1 rider...or is there anything to stop people entering as a team?
So if "Piston Broke Racing" got a bike together with, let's suppose, 4 riders, is there any reason why those folks couldn't just do a couple of races each?
Apart from the fact that those riders wouldn't get the experience of a full series and would remain the greenest of novices, and would probably stand naff all chance of any racing glory, is there anything to stop people doing this if they just want a taste of racing?
Another thought occurs, if sharing bikes was on the cards, how about if like minded people from each DSC region bought, prepared and raced a bike. Maybe you could have a team championship for each region, with a different person on the bike for each race? So, BHC crew against the Essex Boys? Berks Oxon and so on. It would also spread the riding talent around so that people with existing race experience would still have complete novices in the team?
Just a thought, but it would give each region someone to cheer and organise rideouts too.
Rattler
08-Oct-2004, 19:31
Originally posted by lizzie
So I think this is the wrong question:
Originally posted by RattlerWould someone not compete because they couldn't run a 600SS?
How about if you phrased the question 'would someone who already has (or even has some other use for) a Monster 620 or a SS600/SS620 and fancies a go then sell their bike and buy a M600 so they could have a go? I very much doubt it. So that would exclude my £2,500 620 Monster riding-mate and a fair number of the possible UKMOC-ers who might be interested. So the cheque already written might have to be torn up.
And I reckon it would be much better from an aesthetic point of view to have Monsters v SSs.
At the risk of seeming argumentative, I think my question is still a valid one, then we would understand whether this would restrict the numbers or not, wouldn't it?
Phrase it any way you like, the question is still fundamentally the same. If the answers yes, then we include them, if its no, then we don't ?????
I also think from an aesthetic perpsective, just running the same type (Monsters or SSs) would be better.
Seems I'm testosterone charged and argumentative now.!!!;)
OK - Lizzie, to address your "better" question, I'm assuming that the reason that the costs are being kept down is for DSC members to buy (cheaply) a second (or third, fourth etc...) bike for racing and not necessarily to have to sell their main steed to fund a limited racing series. Is this a fair assumption? This bike could alos be used for road use, getting to work etc, but I don't see many selling their 748s, 851s, or the like for a Monnie - do you?
How many people will sell their Monster 620s to get a 600 if the series was restricted to 600s only - not many I'd bet. How many members on this board ride 600 monsters? How many ride 620s?
I'ts open to constructive debate, hence my questioning this.
Perhaps a more important question here is;
Is the objective here to give existing DSC members a race series, or increase DSC membership?:puzzled:
Tim:frog:
Originally posted by Rattler
Is the objective here to give existing DSC members a race series, or increase DSC membership?:puzzled:
Both surley? :puzzled:
skidlids
08-Oct-2004, 19:57
So who is this series for ????
A s with the pevious 6 years I will again be going racing next year, probably with the same two clubs which are North Glos and New Era.
Currently looking at racing my ZXR400 and R6 with maybe the odd outing on my 916. All bikes paid for and all have spare wheels discs etc. so there is no cost envolved in that side of it.
Now if I am to do this mini series I have to basically make a decision by the end of the month pay £200 then go out and source a bike and prep it before the race season starts.
Now as the rules stand I'm happy to do this but if they are going to change then I need to know before I do anything.
Tim the answer to your question, could well be yes, if I come across another P reg 600SS for a grand but not allowed to race it and can only find a monster for £1500 to £2000 then it would appear to defeat the object of building cheap tracbikes.
As Lizzie says its about Inclusion not Exclusion and thats also how I read the original rules.
Only 23 more days to make a decision
desmojen
08-Oct-2004, 20:34
Hey you guys, the difference between a monster and an SS on track? Sod all I would say!
Speaking as someone who regularly gets whupped by 250's, supermotos, singles, even 125's, I can tell you that the rider is way way more important than the bike.
Personally, if I could afford to do it, I would get an SS just because I'm more comfortable on that type of bike. I think it would be a real shame to exclude SS's and 620's too. Like Lizzy says, that'll just limit how many people might want to do it. You need to get 25 entries remember, so let everyone in, if it turns out that 620 SS's and Multi's are ruling the roost, then change the rules next year to reflect that, because by then you'll have everyone hooked!
In these days of dwindling club race Ducatis it would be so cool to see this take off, I for one wish I could afford it, it would be a great way to build my experience.
I suppose what I'm trying to get across is this, don't spoil the pudding arguing about the details just now, give it a taste first!
;)
Sorry Tim, wasn't intended to be a pop at you, it's just that all this concentration on the detail seems to me to be obscuring the point of all this. And I took your comment to mean - surely no-one would not join in just because they couldn't use a SS or a 620, rightly or wrongly.
As far as who is this for? Primarily for the current DSC membership I would say - but we might struggle for a full grid (too early to say) so what's wrong with casting the net wide enough to hopefully ensure full support but not restricting the potential candidates too much? Let's face it, it's all academic if we can't get enough people signed up.
The suggested rules weren't just hatched over a pint, a lot of thought has already gone into this, with, as I understand it, the overbore being allowed for 600s being quid pro quo for competing against 620s. Also I believe there is a similar series running for 750s/800s in the US quite successfully.
I think it's a great idea and Michael's on the point of choosing his race number already:D
Why would you not want to include as many ducati models as possible? Asthetics, Tim? Come on!
Originally posted by lizzie
I think it's a great idea and Michael's on the point of choosing his race number already:D
As long as it's not 12 thats fine ;)
:lol:
DAVE HARRIS
09-Oct-2004, 10:33
I have persuaded myself that I should do this so I will send chris my cheque and will ask for number 11 as I forsee some intimate mettings with gravel traps.
dave:lol:
Rattler
09-Oct-2004, 11:35
Originally posted by Felix
Why would you not want to include as many ducati models as possible? Asthetics, Tim? Come on!
Yep the more the merrier, the asthetics don't bother me, but I was responding to Lizzie's statement about a mixed race being asthetically more pleasing and I think a single bike series looks more so???
Tim:frog:
Originally posted by Felix
Why would you not want to include as many ducati models as possible? Asthetics, Tim? Come on!
and what about the new 620 Multistrada? Ok I will get my coat.........http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/MiscSmallman.gif
It is interesting how much detail everybody goes into with all questions, some interesting points in all of this though.
It has to be a Ducati series, imagine the field day the press would have with a Ducati Club running Hondas!
I guess the intention of the series is firstly to have fun for existing members by taking a step up from track days which are perhaps at their limit of fun per pound already. I could never relax and enjoy the day fully knowing that I was riding my pride and joy and had yet to ride home on her.
The second reason would be I guess as increased exposure for the club and hopefully that would result in increased membership.
Perhaps more importantly it is a way of again putting of value back to the membership which has and always will be the ethos of this club, - it is for the members. I can see the events as being a great focus of involvement for not just those that are racing but for those members like me who would love to turn up (what a great family day out it could be) and watch and feel part of what was happening on track.
Rattler
09-Oct-2004, 11:54
Originally posted by Ian
I guess the intention of the series is firstly to have fun for existing members by taking a step up from track days which are perhaps at their limit of fun per pound already. I could never relax and enjoy the day fully knowing that I was riding my pride and joy and had yet to ride home on her.
The second reason would be I guess as increased exposure for the club and hopefully that would result in increased membership.
Perhaps more importantly it is a way of again putting of value back to the membership which has and always will be the ethos of this club, - it is for the members. I can see the events as being a great focus of involvement for not just those that are racing but for those members like me who would love to turn up (what a great family day out it could be) and watch and feel part of what was happening on track.
I agree Ian, as long as the membership growth is secondary thats fine, "value back into the membership" would be my key hope for this - but I also take Lizzie's point about ensuring a full grid too and needing to be accomodating of potential new members who would help fill these up (if necessary).
Tim:frog:
Just a couple of things:
Frame regs, as at present on the rules list state; frame must be std ducati, materials may be added but not removed
Chaps, many monsters have had a tail chop - is this to be allowed?
The monster doesnt have a seperate subframe like the sports bikes - so will you class 'tail chops' as having some removed, thus making it ineligeable?
Costs, it seems to be a very rare 620 (from early 2002 onwards), to be found under £3k.
600's can easily be found, but most legal on the road ones, cost around £1,600 - £2,500, depending on year & condition.
Occasionally one crops up on the monster site cheaper, but this is a rarety.
Looking forwards to watching some of this next year
Both
Hey guys the rules are already printed up, if you don't like em don't join.
You know the old saying, You can please some, some of the time . But not all, all of the time. I for one like the rules has they stand. If it proves to be a success, then we can talk about adding further clas's etc.
Have only to pursuade the wife now.;)
butch890
10-Oct-2004, 19:47
Just a couple of notes I found a 2003 620ie monster with 3000 miles at £3k at a dealer yesterday,but having spoke to the guru yesterday he seems to favour the multistrada.
The son and heir is almost certainly going to enter the series the silly fool seems to be under the impression that i will be spending some of his inheritance on funding the project !
Well, count me in on this too - IF the regs stay simple, and allow taking off all the bits that you dont need for racing (lights, mirrors, indicators,etc !!!).
I'm classic racing at the moment if anyone wants to ask questions about acu licences, and cheap racing.
Anyone want to swap their 600 monster for my FE ???
(The black beast is the ultimate 900 !)
From what I can make out, the 620 is the 600 bore with the stroke of a 750.
So can I put a small-bore (?!) kit on my other half's carbed 750ss and use that??
Oh, and can I reserve racing number 68 to save on stickers?
Paul
I have a question about the regulation to have held a Departmnet of Transport licence for two years.
I've had my Australian bike licence for about 10 years on and off (5 years without losing it now, see what age will do.......) but not had a UK bike licence for the required two years.
Would this stop me from joining in the DSC racing fun?
This could effect TP-996 too.........
Cheers
Phill
To be honest guys when I saw that I just sort of glossed over it :(
I figured if you could get an ACU license it would be fine - which we can Phil.
It would be good to get a definitive ruling on this however so I don't waste any time looking at Monsters and making plans if I can't race one. I know I can go and race in another club/series and I'll focus my efforts on that instead.
So, MT? Can we get the Aussie contingent sorted out and this cleared up? I'll put this q in the other thread for questions too.
TP
ChrisBushell
11-Oct-2004, 15:56
Folks,
I have cleared up the license on the Q & A thread, there is no problem for those from down under.
I am not certain about those with an ACU license but who are not legally entitled to ride these bikes on the road. Personaly I would rather be on track with mature (I hesitate to use the word sensible) people, who have as much to loose as me if they dive under me.
My 17 year old Son is utterly fearless and chucks himself with no regard for his or anyone elses safety. That is why he is only allowed a 125 with 7hp, not 70hp!
Chris
ChrisBushell
11-Oct-2004, 15:58
Time to start registering now. I have two paid up already and by the looks of this thread a lot of basic interest.
If you want your prefered number that will go on a 1st come 1st served basis; but we need to make the 25 figure to be in with a chance of making this happen
Chris
Can you post a list of people paid up please - and keep it updated?
Similar to what Lizzie did on the TA3 thread.
[Edited on 11-10-2004 by tp-996]
ChrisBushell
11-Oct-2004, 16:24
Tony,
I will have a word with Lizzie and see what we can do avout a signed up list
Just spoken to DLS regarding the DP 680 kit.
Displacement: 673.8cc
Availability: 8-10 days, plenty in Bologna
Price (kit only): £787.26
Extras: Belts, Gaskets
Total: £831.69
:o:o:o
No idea how much labour would be, but if there's enough wanting to do it we could probably get a load done at one go. May also be worth asking Ducati UK if they can supply the kits for a decent price when we're visiting the factory.
You bad bad man Ali!
I can't see myself spending that sort of spondooly though!
[Edited on 11-10-2004 by tp-996]
ChrisBushell
11-Oct-2004, 17:22
Folks,
I am not sure about that price, seems a bit high to me. Neil is back on the 20th, can you hang fire till then and I can check with him and advise you.
Steve, Yes it is for the 583 carb motor and apparently wont go on the 620 model.
Chris
Price does seem a bit high to me too!
However, it's exactly the same price as the 944 kit. Not surprising really as it has the same components:
Barrels
Pistons
Rings
Gudgeon Pins
GP clips
Some other stuff
I bloody hope Neil has a cheaper way of getting some more capacity, or the missus will be doing without xmas this year.... :lol:
Cheers,
Ali
[Edited on 11-10-2004 by ali]
Just had a chat with Randy at FbF. He'll do the kit's for $850 (£473) if we get a group of us together.
The only issue is that (as they use re-furbed barrels) we'd all need to send our barrels out to be done together. Import tax on the way back isn't a problem as we'd have a record of sending the goods. Don't know how much freight would be, but guessing about £25-£45 if we get a few together.
I can only assume that Neil is thinking of doing something similar (which'd be a hell of a lot easier).
Ali
Depends what you pay for your carb'd animal - I'd rather save the frustration by waving wads of cash in front of an ie owner and getting it for say, high £2k's and race it in standard trim than pay £1500 for one and straight away spend £500 - £800 (incl labour) to bring it up to spec.
At the end of the day the ie will be worth more - less damage to my drink everything in the pub fund.
skidlids
11-Oct-2004, 18:21
So what would be the safe rev limit with the bigger pistons flying up and down and would reliability suffer if you tried reving a big bore kitted motor to the same level as the standard motor.
Maybe rather than bringing power levels in line we should be looking at Power to weight ratios. If the 620 models were only allowed a 10% reduction in weight (Mainly the exhaust, lights, indiactors, mirrors etc) and the older 600 bikes a greater weight reduction. No need for a Dyno just some large scales.
Originally posted by tp-996
less damage to my drink everything in the pub fund.
:lol:
That fund is limitless anyway.....
I'd be looking to pay no more than £1k for the SS. There's a few around for that money without even looking at salvage and ex-race.
Over an eight race series I'd be pleasently surprised not to bin it once, so the thought of binning a £3k 620 makes me feel kinda queasy.
I'm also working on the assumption that the series will be a success, and that there'll be a line of future competitors a mile long waiting to buy 'race-prepped' 600s!! If I loose £500 then it'll have been a cheap year.
Kev: I was under the impression that the big bore kits had lighter pistons (to counter the weight issue).
Having a difference in weight would be a fine, but I can't see how we'd shave 20kg off a 600SS without mags/carbon everything. Bit pricey like.....
Ali
[Edited on 11-10-2004 by ali]
dickieducati
11-Oct-2004, 18:30
Originally posted by ali
I'm also working on the assumption that the series will be a success
Ali
well it wont be if people dont actually stop talking and actually committ themselves by putting the deposit down in the next 2 odd weeks.
there's plenty of talk but not alot of action.
and, yes, i do include myself in this.
skidlids
11-Oct-2004, 19:44
http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/600monto680.html
http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/comp2vmodels.html
http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/620sport.html
ChrisBushell
12-Oct-2004, 11:33
Ok boys,
The postman has been and I now have 4 deposits sitiing in a file in my study.
This with the level of interest being shown would imply that we are going to get this organised for next year, please send in your deposits Pronto!
Chris
Originally posted by Jools
Cool...I would love to have a crack at this. What with all the expense I've got next year, I doubt I will be able to afford it even on the cheap...
But if I could, I've already got my race bike sorted out LOOK HERE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=9919&item=2492556159&rd=1) a P-reg carby 600 SS that the owner reckons makes 110 Bhp...:lol::lol::lol:
Still, if it did make 110 Bhp it would make a nice change...me having twice as much power as all youse boys instead of half as much.
:rodent:"Mwah ha ha ha"
He may claim 110BHP but he goes on to admit that it handles like a '70s 250 Honda.:lol:
Have you seen his feedback rating
Looking at the charts Skids attached (thanks Kev) it would appear that the 620ie is the weapon of choice(for me) which is what I had expected having compared specs. The older 600 engine can be got to similar levels by using the big bore kit and will have more mid range torque simply by dint of capacity effect-the 620 will rev easier at the top end.
What all this boils down to is if you can get a 620ie do so, all you need is cans and a modded airbox to go racing ( as well as the obvious removal of road kit, lockwiring, catch tray etc)
If you can only run to a 600 to start with don't worry since you can upgrade with the big bore and finish up with a competitive bike for less cost-it's your choice.
John
Well I was thinking of an ie as well but I'm waiting on a ruling to see if they'll be allowed on the grid or not.
Natty just rang me and suggested a good idea.
I build a 600 monster racer during the closed season, enter it for the challenge, so that folk who cant afford to buy a bike and race for a whole season, or leading the championship and binned their ride. Can hire it per meeting, this will enable celeberty riders like "wiggly" weeksy or "footpeg" Felix, to have a go?
They did a similar thing with the S4 challenge when there was always a spare place on the grid and obscure riders were plucked from the high street and chucked in at the back of the grid, funnily it was usually them that won!
If I get some positive feedback I will purchase a bike and start the process. I got some bits to build a well trick little Monster.
spanners are out! :eureka:
Top idea Rich. Go easy on the special ingredients though! I've seen your special stock and it'd put a BSB team to shame....
Rich, I'd love to think that I would take you up on such an offer for a guest appearance. If nothing else, it would make it harder for Weeksy to get a top 5 finish.;)
ChrisBushell
12-Oct-2004, 19:13
Boys,
It looks by the way that the posts are slowing down, that we maybe getting closer to the decision point now.
Certainly I go back to the point that we want to be inclusive rather than exclusive.
The only option appears to be to run 2 sections on the grid:
1) 583 std engines
2) 674 & 620IE engines
The tyres, control or not, I think is something we can agree or not once we have a group and a majority vote will take it. I am however mindfull of peoples preferances for makes of tyres, I am very fussy on my Motogiro racers about my tyres.
I suggest that twin discs should be allowed, even if not originally fitted; with an appropriate master cylinder.
Does that satisfy people?
Chris
skidlids
12-Oct-2004, 19:29
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
I suggest that twin discs should be allowed, even if not originally fitted; with an appropriate master cylinder.
Does that satisfy people?
Chris
Yes and No, what happens to owners of Single Disc ONLY (no lugs on other leg) 600SS's, upgrading forks, buying a 2nd disc and calliper, hoses and Mastercylinder isn't a cheap upgrade, if it was me (No I haven't got one) I would rather go SPS disc and 4 pad calliper and see how I got on, maybe a bit lees braking than a twind disc but also less rotating mass.
Nattyboy
12-Oct-2004, 19:31
Originally posted by louigi
Natty just rang me and suggested a good idea.
I build a 600 monster racer during the closed season, enter it for the challenge, so that folk who cant afford to buy a bike and race for a whole season, or leading the championship and binned their ride. Can hire it per meeting, this will enable celeberty riders like "wiggly" weeksy or "footpeg" Felix, to have a go?
They did a similar thing with the S4 challenge when there was always a spare place on the grid and obscure riders were plucked from the high street and chucked in at the back of the grid, funnily it was usually them that won!
If I get some positive feedback I will purchase a bike and start the process. I got some bits to build a well trick little Monster.
spanners are out! :eureka:
Rattler...forget what I said yesterday when we met..looks like a might bag a go after all.. :D:D
Nat
skidlids
12-Oct-2004, 20:09
Taken from Desmo Due Q&A thread as this is the discussion thread
Originally posted by dickieducati
the rules are already set and as far as i can see they are reasonable. they will always be someone that feels they could be changed to suit them better/make it fairer/cheaper etc. tough titties. that’s life. Happens all the time.
I totally agree, the terms making it INCLUSIVE and not EXCLUSIVE sum it up well.
I have the predicament of do I sell one of my current race bikes that I could if I wanted race on 30 weekends a year doing anything up to 6 races a day, in favour of a Desmo Due and do 8 races on it.
Hence my interest in a spec for the Desmo Due that would make it worth entering in a Mini Twins class with a club like North Glos that would offer me a further 12 race days a year with again 2 races a day.
Which is why I'm still WAITING to see which direction things are going before I make a decision one way or another
rockhopper
12-Oct-2004, 21:29
Here's a thought guys.
Instead of allowing all sorts of expensive mods to give the 600 the same power as the 620, why not restrict the 620 so it produces the same power as the 600? Run like this for a few years till all the 600's die a natural death then remove or gradully reduce the restriction. A simple plate with a hole in the intake would do the job. Cost buttons as well.
pguenet
13-Oct-2004, 00:07
It is all quite interesting all that, I was actually suggesting something along those lines to Dave the other day as there is a Ducati cup in France (based on the 900SSie).
First feedback about interest for the idea. Yes I would be interested in principle as I would like to take it a step further than trackdays, yet would not want to go racing with the big boys quite yet.
No I will not make a decision before the end of the month mainly because of persoal reasons that I have many other worries on my mind at the moment. But also because this is not such an easy choice to make for me, I have already a 916 for the track, a 996 for the road and a Honda for everyday. I am not sure that I would actually sell the 916 for a SS600 even if this is to go racing. I still want to have a decent bike to do trackdays as well. Buying yet another bike is turning into madness (especially as I am also thinking of a dirt bike, etc.). I agree that this is a nice problem to have but it is a problem nevertheless for me to take up the series. I don't know if many other members are in this situation but I would feel totally undecided before making the commitment:
- Do I get a decent track bike to be enjoyed all year round on trackdays?
- Do I take up the series on a 600cc and feel frustrated on trackdays?
- Do I run 2 bikes?
- Are SS600 and M600 the right answer for the series? The worry about going cheap might not necessarily stand if the category of people that are potentially interested have to run an extra bike after all?
Second feedback
- If 600cc it is I think that the serie should allow only plain standard 600cc. You may allow 620ie when the second hand prices would be lower with the option of boring out older machines. You may start that transition in a couple of years or so.
- Just very basic mods like removing road gears, lights, allowing fiber fairing, etc
- Brakes - allow stainless hoses and whatever choice of pads. Discs will need changing as well and EBC, etc might offer cheaper options. I think that you should put restriction on calipers and master cyl but allow some lattitude on disc(s) and pads as those would require changing often. You should allow single or twin discs set ups.
- Tyres - I would go for single supplier or a small range of similar types tyres from 3 or 4 suppliers. It should be a standard road compound like Diablos (but not Corsas) and no wets allowed. Allowing a range of tyres would see most people turning up with new compound every race.
Suggestions
In light of my initial comment of some people likely to want to retain only one (decent) track bike, is there any scope for spinning off a second series like:
- open serie for any Duke?
- open serie for any road bike? (although many road bikes in the club have serious mods, so road bike does not mean much anymore)
- special serie for 748 4 valves / 900 2 valves with some restrictions on how standards bikes should be.
Cheers
philippe
"Suggestions
In light of my initial comment of some people likely to want to retain only one (decent) track bike, is there any scope for spinning off a second series like:
- open serie for any Duke?
- open serie for any road bike? (although many road bikes in the club have serious mods, so road bike does not mean much anymore)
- special serie for 748 4 valves / 900 2 valves with some restrictions on how standards bikes should be."
Thanks for all the thoughts guys, to give you an idea of where we were coming from the initial series suggestions were:
750 cup based on 750SS/Monster-my opinion was that this would be a difficult one since there aren't actually that many 750's out there.
My suggestion was to go to 900SS/monster simply because of availability-when this was fully kicked around it was finally decided to come up with the 600/620 series as it was felt that 900's would possibly be too fast for novices whereas the 600's are both available and slower/less intimidating, and cheaper!
I did suggest a 748 series but again this was felt to be too expensive as there are so many things you can do to a 4 valve motor and 'cheque book' racing would seem to be the inevitable consequence.
Having decided on 600/620's there was a lot of discussion around whether we just restricted it to standard spec 600's-possibly just monsters-with modifications limited to making them race worthy. It was then decided that since the 600 with a 680 kit would produce roughly the same peak power as a 620 but would actually cost less that we should allow 620's.
That's how we got to where we are, and from the post's so far most people are happy with things as they are structured. If you go out and buy a 620ie monster for about £3,000 you can with minimal mods race it. As an alternative you can pick up a 600SS/Monster for £1,500 or less and race that, to be competitive with the 620 you will need to spend a bit to get it to 680 but it will still be cheaper than the 620, and it will be worth less-either way it's (comparatively) cheap racing. To have an absolutely level playing field would mean us agreeing that either we use all 600's-probably monsters since they are more available, or all 620's again monsters, which would sort of go against what we are trying to do.
I'm not saying that we have got it right, but it's about the best we can do.
John
ChrisBushell
13-Oct-2004, 13:23
Boys,
Whilst I think that the level of discussion that this idea has produced is excellent, we can debate things till the end of the year and then end up with no racing!
No we cant get it right first time or suit everybody, what we have to do is try and accomodate as many people as we can (inclusive not exclusive).
I hope that I can get agreement in principal on two sections within the racing at the end of next week (583s & 620 + 674). If that is so will it satisfy those that are interested and close that item out?
Tyres I beleive we are close to an agreement on, my understanding being that you will be able to choose tyres from a variety of suppliers but that the size and type will be defined.
We have suggested 4 rounds eight races, merely as a means of keeping costs down in the first year. If the entrants are willing to commit financially to more rounds then they can have them I beleive.
Brakes, dont see an easy answer here but am inclined to allow the twin option, but that we tighten up on the calipers that are allowed.
Does that satisfy those that wish to enter?
Chris
Chris Wood
13-Oct-2004, 17:25
All,
Having read all threads with interest here I go;
This is a great idea and IMO suits members who, maybe like me;
- like riding on trackdays!
- always wondered about racing?
- limited ££££
- own a road bike, but don't want to ruin on track - Senna 1
- or bought an ex race bike, but don't want to race it - WSS 748RS
So I'm in and agree with the keep it simple philosophy. I'm no techy and just want to race a standard bike.
I someone wants to spend £££££ to win races then good for them!, everyone will see what enabled them to win - ££££ vs talent. Congrats to carbon fibre/overbore/stickytyre guy for winning the series! (Boring)
I want to spend very little and then race......if I come 4th or 44th I don't care, I will be living out my MotoGP fantasy and having fun!
We will all know who is riding what, so the 600/620 debate is irrelavent, let's include them all and have some fun racing.
I'm sure we have all been on track days and gone past or been passed by people on more/less expensive bikes, a one make series will reduce the £££ element but never eliminate it.
So turn the hard to the stop and have fun!
Oh and a question,
Can we enter as a 'Team' with two riders taking turns for rounds?
Phew.....
Chris.
ChrisBushell
14-Oct-2004, 09:54
Chris,
Glad to hear your words of praise and gald that you are in!
I cannot give a catagoric yes to your team idea, but I think that you can assume that would be ok afterall it is the bike that we enter on the grid "with a rider attached".
Maybe for the 2nd year we might consider a longer race with rider changes, but I am not even oing to go there for 2005
Chris
Chris Wood
14-Oct-2004, 12:55
Thanks Weeksy,
As a NOVICE I hope to stay true to my quote above.
At least for the first season!
Cheers.
LesPaul
14-Oct-2004, 14:22
I may have missed this somewhere in the various posts but instead of letting the 600's have a big bore kit why not have a weight penalty on the 620's sp power to weight is closer? Then as Paul has said the 600's will eventually die out as the 620's become more affordable and the weight penalty can be lifted on them.
Another quick question, how can I persuade SWMBO that I really should race her M600 :puzzled: :devil:
Darren
Originally posted by weeksy
Bradders is riding a 620 along with TP996, there's enough weight on them thank you very much :)
Edzachary!
Although, I may end up on a 600 ...
im interested in this for sure...but can someone please list in order for a simpleton like me what i need to do........reading all these post is just confussing..........
ie.....where do i get my license....do i have to join a club like dp..and wot bike can i buy..lol when does it start and wots the cost........
Phil
cheap n cheerfull is the order of the day..everyone on a level pegging the riding making the difference not the size of yer wallet...................
Phil.
ChrisBushell
15-Oct-2004, 13:25
Folks,
Friday update.
There are 7 deposits sat in the file after the post this morning.
With regard to the cost of overbore kits, the price that someone got from DLS should now be looked at as a maximum price that it will cost, it should come out cheaper. This will be finalised once we get over the 20 deposit stage.
I am having a run through end of next week about finalising the rules, but currently the following changes are likely to come into effect :
Wheels have to be std Ducati per original fitment for the model, with the exception that a 5.5 rim can be fitted to the rear.
Tyres will be from an approved list of manufacturers, sizes and types + wets. These to be defined as road legal and with a moulded tread (not wets).
A 2nd front disk will be allowed, of standard type, with original spec calipers (no trick or WSB ones) and an applicable master cylinder (no trick or WSB ones allowed).
On the front forks, no external adjusters allowed. That is std 600/620 front forks, free internals.
You can run either 583 or 620/674, to score points towards the championship. It will not be 583 only.
That I think will answer most of the questions that have been left outstanding, but feel free to contact me diirect for further explanation.
Chris
Rattler
15-Oct-2004, 13:56
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
You can run either 583 or 620/674, to score points towards the championship. It will not be 583 only.
Chris
For clarification - will there ba a single class or 2 seperate ones ? ie one class for 583 and the other for 620/674?
Tim:frog:
ChrisBushell
15-Oct-2004, 14:09
Tim,
At present all I can say is that you will all be out together as a group. If as I expect we run with New Era, then we will award points within class/section or whatever we call it and there will be two wooden spoons on offer at the end of the series to the winners.
Currently Monty and I see this as the easiest way of resolving this issue.
We have to allow the 620 as it will be the way forward after the supply of 583s has been trashed through racing. However it is likely that in the 1st year we may have a majority of 583s.
One of the people who has sent in his deposit, should be getting a 600SS tomorrow and is going to try and get it on a dyno for us next week. At that point we will know what the relative HP values are and look at the advantages of the 674 kit. We know that a 620 with a chip puts out 62hp at the back wheel.
Chris
I'm currently in 'hovering' mode ... although I really, really like the _idea_ of racing a 600 ... there are still things that are in the air ...
:puzzled:1. I've never ridden a monster (but know that they handle much better than an ss) and am hesitant about racing without my 'bum in the air '.
SO - is it monsters-only or not ?
(and what about the old pantahs ? you can get them for under 2k !)
:puzzled:2. Stumping up 3k for a bike I might not be able to modify to suit me (ie clip-ons and rear-sets cos i'm a lanky git) does not sound like a good idea.
SO - what mods will be allowed ?
:puzzled:3. my wife wants to know why I want yet another race bike (I race a classic duc single and 2 even older velocette singles) as this so-called road-bike will end up NOT being road-legal.
SO - do we have to keep them road-legal ?
:burn:
ChrisBushell
15-Oct-2004, 14:26
Phil,
It is not Monsters only, I know that several people are looking at the SS option, you will also notice that the rules say that bars are free.
No you cant have a Pantah it is only for post 92 motors.
Modifications allowed are in thr rules, down loadable from the home page. You caould consider the £1500 583 SS/Monster, exhaust, shock, forks, 2nd disc and go that route (only difference as I see it is rear sets on the Monster.
With regard to road legal, the rules allow you to remove lights, etc if you want to; it doesn't say that you have to!
Chris
Now some facts about real racing ...
1. If you're really fast it doesnt matter so much what you ride cos you go past everyone on the corners.
(eg I ran my 450-single-road-bike at a brands track day and passed bikes on every corner)
2. If you have a really fast bike it doesnt matter if you're not so good on the corners cos you overtake everyone on the straights.
(eg see eg above ...)
3. (1) + (2) = racing :)
4. If a race-grid starts with the class-leaders at the front then they will probably clear off again.
This is NOT racing imho, and the guy at the back with less bottle or a slower bike will give it all up after a few races, as he will not be having enough fun.
5. If the grid is random, or has the class-leaders handicapped, the (poor) guy at the front will have butterflys, and a good time !
With New Era the first race is random grid positions (yes, I have been on pole and sh8t myself) and the second is in championship/points order.
Don't forget that most of us will also be eligible for the Novice race too!
bradders
17-Oct-2004, 00:00
Originally posted by weeksy
Bradders is riding a 620 along with TP996, there's enough weight on them thank you very much :)
thats an old '94 600 weeksy - 45bhp I reckon if that:o oh, how I long for a 620......
psychlist
17-Oct-2004, 17:41
I'd really be interested in doing this, but dunno whether to commit myself to a bike (£1000?), one piece leathers (£300 min), license & ACU test (£250?), entry fee's (£200 each!!!) PLUS transport (or can I fit the bike in the back of Alison's Yaris?) and extra life insurance to keep Alison happy!
Would it be cheaper to get an ex-raced CB500 and get more races in that series next year?
Originally posted by psychlist
I'd really be interested in doing this, but dunno whether to commit myself to a bike (£1000?), one piece leathers (£300 min), license & ACU test (£250?), entry fee's (£200 each!!!) PLUS transport (or can I fit the bike in the back of Alison's Yaris?) and extra life insurance to keep Alison happy!
Would it be cheaper to get an ex-raced CB500 and get more races in that series next year?
Yup,there is no such thing as cheap racing!
As for a grand for a bike,has anyone had a look at what you get for the money?I did'nt realise how many old nails there were out there.I saw one poor M regd Monster this weekend in Italia.The mechanic that stripped it down best described it as scrap.Well I think that was what he said.Some cheapies on Ebay at the mo,buyer beware.
skidlids
18-Oct-2004, 07:59
Your right Keith cheapest 600 I've seen so far is a early monster for £1400, cheapest SS (my prefered choice) so far is £1800, by the time belly pan and a few other mods are carried out it would cost as much as i'm asking for my 748 that I raced at Silverstone a week ago.
Iconic944ss
18-Oct-2004, 13:04
What a great discussion platform this has become.
MT - I think a new forum might be necessary for Desmo Due Racing.
What a shame that a) I've only recently bought myself a very cheap Jap trackbike and b) I love idea of racing in a 'semi-controlled' environment but dont have the necessary skills yet - 2006 hopefully ???
For my 10 cents worth - I think the regs are going the right way - as 'standard' as possible while making the bikes handle well enough on the track.
Monsters v SS??? - Let em both in I say - the more the merrier but, fuel inj goes abit against the grain with me somehow - personal view.
I'll also put my hand up to be a helper in any way possible - hands on bike locally (as I'm quite used to playing with an SS now :D ) or in any other way paper/web wise.
Final thought - how about an endurance race at the end of the season as well :) 1 hour anyone !!!
Good luck all !!! - Frank
Originally posted by Iconic944ss
Final thought - how about an endurance race at the end of the season as well :) 1 hour anyone !!!
That's inspired! Doesn't need to count towards the championship, but would be a brilliant end to the season. How about it Chris??
Ali
Sounds interesting.
What WJB says looks to be true - to get a full grid may well mean intigrationg it within a.n.other series and that may well be the CB / Hornets.
To give you some idea of the speeds / lap times from '04 MiniTwins:
Circuit Lap Record
Brands Hatch (Indy) 0:51.83
Brands Hatch (GP) 1:39.53
Cadwell Park (Full) 1:40.08
Lydden Hill 0:44.25
Oulton Park 1:54.35
Pembrey 1:07.67
Silverstone (Club) 1:09.56
Snetterton 1:16.27
Remember this sort of racing is not without incident, I think it was at Pembrey (in June?) that the MT series had a fatality during a race incident.
Best of luck guys and gals (?).
Tim
rockhopper
18-Oct-2004, 18:30
They were dynoing the Hornets at Donington on Sunday. A nice, fully sorted one was making 81hp at the back wheel. Sounded gorgeous as well! Need a lot of work to get an M600 up to that sort of power.
Originally posted by skidlids
Your right Keith cheapest 600 I've seen so far is a early monster for £1400, cheapest SS (my prefered choice) so far is £1800, by the time belly pan and a few other mods are carried out it would cost as much as i'm asking for my 748 that I raced at Silverstone a week ago.
Hmm,Italia have a 600SS in stock.Its way too good for what you guys want it for.Its absolutely mint and up for 2600.They also have a couple of nice Monsters,but not cheap.
I reckon if you could pick up a Monster for 1400,it would cost nearly a grand to get it something like race ready.
The forks/shock and brakes need upgrading.(They were'nt that good when new!)
Upswept exhaust.(If a numpty like me can ground them on the road,they definately need to be up,out of the way for racing)
Clip-ons and steering damper.(That should calm the front end a bit)
Then there's sticky tyres,sprockets,chains etc,etc,and so on.
desmojen
18-Oct-2004, 20:20
Originally posted by vman
I`d say forget it and by a supermoto...:lol:
You would! :frog:
Except by is a buy - non?
skidlids
19-Oct-2004, 03:10
Steve I think your right a lot of people may be put off by the prospect of mixed races, but surely the idea of a minimum of 25 participants is that they can have there own race and there will be room for a few more if they want to join in at a later stage.
Tim (aws)- regards your comment I was told it was Lyden
Here are samples of a couple of results from the North Glos SoT/Minitwins races, that show just how well a 72bhp Minitwin can do against more powerful oppostion. In the Silverstone example the 996 is the one raced by Weeksy the weekend before at Donington
Pembrey
7 58 Nigel Reed Suzuki SV 650 MT JHS Racing 01:03.91 81.99
8 10 Tom Luton Ducati SoT Louigi Moto 01:03.79 82.14
My best time on a 916 is in the 1:07s
Silverstone club circuit
6 10 Tom Luton Ducati 996 SoT Louigi Moto 01:09.96 84.33
7 58 Nigel Reed Suzuki SV 650 MT JHS Racing 01:10.97 83.13
I may be doing a deal with my GSXR600 against a ZXR400 so may well be racing 400s next year.
I was/am under the impression that either we get enough to run this on our own grid or not at all. It would rather defeat the object of all this if we ended up sharing with another series surely?
I went out on the other half's 36,000 mile-old 750ss yesterday for a few laps of the odd roundabout and reckon that I could go race it tomorrow if it was a 600!
Sure it would be better (in my head?) if I spent money on modded forks, new shock, clip ons, rearsets etc but would all those bits would win races without me actually riding the thing properly - I think not!
Also, don't forget that if you do buy a bike it can always be sold at the end of the season. Maybe not for what it cost but no one said racing was cheap.
So I am going to send in my cheque so at least I won't have to spend next year thinking " I wish that there was a cheap Ducati series, it could have been a good crack....."
PS Anyone wanna buy a 916-engined 888 road legal trackbike??
ChrisBushell
19-Oct-2004, 12:49
Folks,
The postman has been and I am not seeing any cheques through my door, please get them in the post ASAP as we should be finalising the rules end of this week, no surprises expected and looking to lock down which Club(s) we go with next week.
Chris
weeksy for once i agree with you ... come on folks put your cheque where your mouths are ... if we don't get near to the 25 figure then it's not going to happen .... i'm in and i'm happy for the precise rules to be sorted later.... what we need now is a commitment rather than hot air so that the whole thing can be taken further.
:roll:
DAVE HARRIS
19-Oct-2004, 15:09
all you maybes, you dont have to worry about being last, unless I manage to lose 3 stone and find another 1500 pounds I will be last or first! (into the gravel trap). I cant think of a better way to improve your speed and track riding which is why I am doing this. I will be spending the absolute minimum neccarsary as I agree with kev and weeksy the rider is a more important factor, as i said in my case perhaps a zx10 will even things out a bit!!:frog:
dave
Rattler
19-Oct-2004, 15:56
Yep - I've procrastinated for long enough!!!!
Cheque will be in the post today!!!
Tim:frog:
"procrastinated"-blimey Tim, big word for a wet Tuesday afternoon.:lol:
John
desmojen
19-Oct-2004, 18:01
Weeksy is spot on, like him I have already commited to next year, and cannot afford another bike, otherwise my cheque would have been in weeks ago! ( although, unlike Weeksy, I won't claim it would be an easy option! :P)
Get yer entries in fellas, and you as well Redruth, and Lily, come on !!!!!
:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::b ouncy::bouncy:
bradders
19-Oct-2004, 18:59
I am waiting - still not sure of the rules and shed loads too much to read...not sure of costs and cant afford a couple fo grand (already have the bike)...really appeals but more to think about...if it is only DSC peeps (and I know it wont exactly be friendly!!) then I would be 80% sure to do. If not, 100% wont.
Bradders-rule 1-only members of DSC may take part-in other words if they ain't members then they have to join to compete. Rules are virtually there, just need a technical check with Neil Spalding.
Rough Draft
2 classes 583cc and 620/675
no engine mods apart from big bore kit.
Carburetors may be changed but inlet manifolds and valves must be standard.
standard fork outers, modified internals allowed, modded rear shock allowed.
Exhaust mods allowed, with re-jetting or ecu chip change.
Footrest position can be changed.
Handlebars can be changed.
Fairing can be added or removed.
Standard wheels with 3.5 front 4.5 rear rims
Road legal moulded tread tyres-probably from an allowable list.
Wets-we will take a vote amongst paid up entrants as to whether or not to allow them.
Brakes, twin disk's are allowable but must be standard model specific.
Thats about it so get your entries in.
John
skidlids
19-Oct-2004, 19:30
Those rules are looking very attractive Monty, could you consider the following changes to your Rough Draft as shown in bold type in brackets, Also for entrants remember you will have to run race numbers as per ACU regs
2 classes 583cc and 620/675
no engine mods apart from big bore kit.
Carburetors may be changed ( Hopefully not Keihin smoothbores very pricey unless only in the big bore class) but inlet manifolds and valves must be standard.
standard fork outers, modified internals allowed, modded rear shock allowed.
Exhaust mods allowed, with re-jetting or ecu chip change. (Hopefully allowed to use K&N, nice induction sound)
Footrest position can be changed.
Handlebars can be changed.
Fairing can be added or removed.
Standard wheels with 3.5 front 4.5 rear rims
Road legal moulded tread tyres-probably from an allowable list.
Wets-we will take a vote amongst paid up entrants as to whether or not to allow them.
Brakes, twin disk's are allowable but must be standard model specific. ( or any Ducati OE part if using single disc setup)
[Edited on 19-10-2004 by skidlids]
ChrisBushell
20-Oct-2004, 13:10
Boys,
I will take these last mods to the rules with me when I meet up with Neil on Friday lunch time. I will post no later than Monday morning the final rules, so that people can make their decision.
On the face of Skidlids suggestions, my views are:
1) Anyone going to expensive carbs, would be better off starting with a 620 and it will be cheaper anyway + he would still be 5hp down on a 620 unless he bores it.
2) K&N filters are allowed.
3) If single disc, I think that any OE equipment is probably ok, but no radial calipers or other trick bits.
Confirmation on Monday.
Currently I have 10 deposits in the file, so we need to find some more fairly quickly.
Chris
WeeJohnyB
20-Oct-2004, 15:23
Chris, re wet tyres
We need an option for all conditions - dry, wet/dry and wet.
Dry is usually obvious, it's a Super Corsa ar similar. Wet/dry is tricky - depending on the circumstances, you'll fall off in the damp on an SC. In the wet, you either need a good quality treaded road tyre and reduced lap times or you allow wets. Personally I'd allow wets, a set should last the year as long as the rider only uses them in the wet.
This year has been a nightmare for tyre choice. Often half the circuit has been wet and the other dry. At Donny at the weekend I went out with a wet front and dry rear and came in after two laps as four had fallen already and my rear was slipping all over the place and it was only a matter of time before I was next.
It does add a couple of hundred to the cost, but it allows for safer racing in all conditions.
Regs are taking shape nicely though, well done for listening and persisting with it.
WeeJohnyB
WeeJohnyB
20-Oct-2004, 15:31
As for sharing the grid with another series, let's hope we get the minimum that we can agree with New Era that they don't put anyone else on with us, however, it's commercial reality I'm afraid. If it's under what's agreed, or numbers change during the year, fact is they'll put others out with the Ducs. It would be a shame, but by no means the end of the world - you'd still have the same people having the same amount of fun racing with their mates. (although I believe there will be a lot of 'new' friends as we'll fill the grid with people who are not currently members of the DSC and will only join to race).
WeeJohnyB
ChrisBushell
20-Oct-2004, 16:02
WJB
With regard to your comments on tyres, I have to say that I am in agreement with what you have said. However as Monty has posted, if the majority of participants for reason of cost wish to ban wets, then personally I dont have a problem with it.
I suppose this all boils down to the fact that racing has never been a budget activity.
Chris
Gents,
where has the 5.5 inch rear rim option gone?
This was std on a 900ss etc and its easier to find 180/120 tyre pairs at competitive prices than 170 widths......
I'll admit that I'm biased as I want to use the rims off my 888 rather than have to buy two sets of everything, and I don't think that the extra inch will make that much difference.
At least, that's what she tells me...... :lol:
Cheers,
Paul
ChrisBushell
20-Oct-2004, 17:09
Paul,
This one is still open to some debate, there is a greater range of tyres in the 180 size rather than the std (160?). The discussion has been focused round the additional costs incurred for people in buying replacement wheels.
You cant have it both ways, either we tighten the rules or you guys will be spending more money.
Chris
Things are looking up. Rules, keep 'em simple and cheap. Mix and match standard bits as far as possible but no 999r motors in a 600ss frame!!
If anyone needs some help building or running a bike OOp North let me know. I'll do what I can.
Ray.
Rattler
21-Oct-2004, 16:55
I've sent a cheque now - so it must be 11 at least!!!!
ChrisBushell
21-Oct-2004, 18:46
Boys,
I got Tim's cheque so we are up to 11 now. I have just got off the phone from one guy who has put a deposit in and his mate is going to sign up next wee.
Monty, Neil and I are going to debate the final thoughts on the rules tomrrow amd I will post up the definative list on Monday morning. There are no great surprises expected as a result of these discussions.
We now need to get much nearer to the 25 that we need so that we can have a strong position with the ACU when we sit down with them in a couple of weeks.
Chris
skidlids
22-Oct-2004, 14:42
Still keeping my options open, its really a bit early to commit at the moment as like previous years this years racing has given the old finances a good bashing and as usual the off season is required to sort things out.
Now if the GSXR600K2 or'and 748 sell then I'll send in my money and sort a bike.
In the mean time next week I hope to see my mates that Sponsored the SoT and Minitwins at NG Road Racing this year and enlist their support in allowing Desmo Due spec bikes onto the Grid as a Minitwin.
The current roumour around NG at the moment is that next years tracks will be
Pembrey
Darley Moor
Donnington
Thruxton
Silverstone
Brands Hatch
Cadwell Park
So should certainly provide a few more oppotunities to get out and race.
LesPaul
22-Oct-2004, 14:52
I'm seriously thinking about it too, looking at a nice M600 which will do the job but may well have to part with the S4r if I'm to come racing next year and buy a cheaper road bike or use the M600 as road and race bike, serious decisions to be made :puzzled::puzzled:
Darren
Your right there Kev, Steve Bostock rang me yesterday and confirmed the circuits that you have listed, this will be the first time in NG's history that airfield circuits havent been used, that is a big leap forward for the club I recon. I think it would be great to tag the Desmo Due series onto the thunder and mini twin grid. I am like yourself already committed with Tom Luton, entered for the NW200 and Manx GP and gets the use of a couple of 996's, plus a full club series, which at this stage will probably be NG. If the rule book suits me, I could still be tempted to put a little "knocker" together for someone to ride as I would already be at the circuit ?
skidlids
23-Oct-2004, 01:00
I'll let you know how I get on next week Richard, in the meantime NG provisional calender is now out and is as follows
DATE ---- VENUE ------ EVENT
Feb 26 Sat Pembrey Test/training day
Feb 27 Sat Pembrey Test/training day
Mar 19 Sat Pembrey Round 1
Mar 20 Sun Pembrey Round 2
Apr 16 Sat Darley Moor Round 3
Apr 17 Sun Darley Moor Round 4
May 7 Sat Silverstone Round 5
May 21 Sat Cadwell Park Round 6
May 22 Sun Cadwell Park Round 7
Jun 11 Sat Brands Hatch Round 8
Jun 12 Sun Brands Hatch Round 9
Jul 16 Sat Pembrey Round 10
Jul 17 Sun Pembrey Round 11
Aug 7 Sun Donington Round 12
Sep 3 Sat Pembrey Round 13
Sep 4 Sun Pembrey Round 14
Oct 8 Sat Thruxton Round 15
Oct 8 Sat Thruxton Evening Party
Ok boys the definitive rules are:
Motorcycles to be based on Ducati 2 valve air cooled V-twin 600/620 built post 1992 and the maximum capacity allowed will be 675cc.
All Motorcycles must conform with the construction and use regulations as set out by the ACU for motorcycle road racing.
Chassis
· Frames must be standard Ducati, but material may be added but not removed. Chassis based on Ducati Monster may have rear chop
· Standard Ducati swing-arms must be used but these can be taken from any Ducati model. Material may be added but not removed.
· Suspension, the rear shock may be changed. Front fork internals are free, externals should be applicable to the model to which they are fitted-externally adjustable forks are NOT allowed.
· Brakes,any standard production Ducati discs and caliper(s) and any bar lever and master cylinder assembly may be used.
Note: If using twin disks brake lines must be seperate below bottom fork clamp-construction and use regs.
· Wheels to be standard Ducati production 17" diameter 3.5" front and 4.5" rear.
· Non track essential road equipment may be removed. Fairings may be added.
· Tyres must have a moulded road legal tread.
· Wets are allowed. (Safety issue)
· Tyre warmers are allowed.
· Suspension linkage is free.
· Oil catching undertray is required. This must hold 4 litres minimum.
· Minimum weight is 150kg
Engine
· Overbores within the class capacity limit are allowed.
· Compression limit to be 12 Bar
· Valves, camshafts and cylinder head porting must be original and not modified.
· Clutch and clutch operating system is free
· Connecting rods and crank assembly must be standard and unmodified
· Inlet manifolds, carburettors and fueling can be modified or changed.
· Exhaust pipes and mufflers can be modified or changed
· The Alternator must charge and electric start must work at the end of the race.
· Fuel standard freely available unleaded road gasolene must be used.
Thats it folks, there will be one class not 2 as I previously suggested since we will not be allowed to run 2 classes on the same grid. There are no big bore kits available for the 620 engines so an overbored 583 should be competitive.
John
ChrisBushell
25-Oct-2004, 11:16
Boys,
Ok then we now know what the rules are going to be and we have 12 deposits. I need to see some more completed forms coming through the letter box this week, so that we can take this forward.
Please indicate to me (with a U2U) that you are sending a form in, so that I can track progress.
Chris
butch890
25-Oct-2004, 12:26
Thanks for the regs John,would it be possible to have them in printable format.
Thanks
Grahame
Webteam
26-Oct-2004, 01:43
See seperate thread for the final rules/regs.
ChrisBushell
27-Oct-2004, 10:18
Boys & Girls,
I have just been on to the thread with the finalised rules on it and seen that it has been downloaded 40 times now! This is very encouraging and because of this I assume that we should be seeing some completed entry forms through the post in the not to distant future.
Could I ask you to indicate your interest, so that I can have an idea of numbers, for the further conversations we are having with the ACU, etc.
Chris
i am interested but very confused by the above posts
i would be interested but on a very low budget so all the talk of mods is a bit off putting especially as the bike will go to my missus when ive finished racing it.
ive only ever done 2 track schools but feel confident enough to enter if only for a laugh and the experience. my mates agreed to be my spanner man and provide me with his bike trailer
whats the cost of entering the championship and cost of each round
are we able to get a good deal on the tyres as we'll have 25+ bikes on the grid
how difficult is it to get a acu licence
any sensible costs and advice appreciated
chris you have a u2u too
cheers
dave :frog:
Just a quick note to all those who think they need to spend a ton of money to be quick...
http://predator.bikepics.com/pics/hon-hornet-97-bikepics-10923.jpg
Once you can ride the monster like that, you can spend money on go faster bits. :frog:Hey, maybe this should be another rule for Desmodue racing.:lol: But then again, if you can ride like that, you'll probably be winning already.:D: WeeJohnyB will know what I am on about.
Felix, you have NO idea how long it took me to STOP him riding the TZ like that. It's been interesting this year to see WJB's style change from the outlandish but very effective style needed to hussle a CB500 round a track into the much more tucked in style needed for a GP bike. Interesting thing is he now seems to be able to switch from one to the other, race the TZ, come back in and jump on the CB500 and race that.
John
rockhopper
14-Nov-2004, 22:15
How are things going with this? Got a 600 Monster we might be looking to sell you see!
WeeJohnyB
14-Nov-2004, 22:47
yes, very flattering and all, I've got a few piccies like the one above, but I've got a LONG way to go before I'm quick on the TZ and funnily enough, swapping bikes has lost me my edge on the CB5. I can still hoon it round the track, but the tenth here and there that keeps you ahead of the guy two inches from your handlebars has momentarily gone.
I can never explain what it is, but I cannot ride ANY bike to the insane level that I can ride a CB5. I wish I had the magic trick, cause I'd be bleedin rapid if I could.....and that's not me blowing my own trumpet, anyone that's had a go of my CB5 (and that's loads of peeps) agree that for some unknown reason, that nobody I've ever met can fathom out, you can brake later, carry more corner speed and get on the gas quicker than anything else I've ever ridden. All from 49.5 bhp, road tyres, a single disc and bongy bongy suspension. Fabulous....makes me smile even typing this.
I'm guessing having ridden a Monster around Mallory that anyone racing one of these will have a similar experience. CB5 racing is like two wheeled dodgems, which is quite unlike racing the TZ or the 600's races that I've raced in. There is a 'given' that you are totally nuts and agree when you go on the grid that it is acceptable to shunt someone off, or be shunted.
I've said it before and you're all totally bored of it by now, but I watched the CB5's race at Snetterton when Monty and I were on the TZ and the paying punter standing next to me at Russells chicane said to his son when asked which bike was racing next, "it's the best race of the day, it's the nutters on the CB5's". Funny, I watched a few other races at Russells and it was all quite polite, until the CB5's came on and it was total mayhem and carnage, just hilarious to watch. It can still get you me round in 1.25 and last years championship winner did a 1.23.
I really think some of the magic is down to it being a 'one make' series and it's why I've been so vocal about not allowing too many mods for Desmo Due. Keep it simple, let the rider do the talking and we'll (you'll) have some fabulous racing and great memories.
Speaking to Monty today on the BHC rideout, I do feel like it's time to move on, although, I'll still do the odd race on the CB5 and probably never sell it. I love it.
Let's hope that Monster racing gets off the ground, cause I think the racers will get a similar feeling from it.
WeeJohnyB
rockhopper
14-Nov-2004, 22:56
I was watching the CB5's from the pit wall at Donnington a few weeks back. Two of the riders were punching each other as they were going down the start finish straight! Several others were using the shoulder barge technique as well!!
Class.:D
WeeJohnyB
14-Nov-2004, 23:01
yep, that's CB5 racing, pure class, excellent sportsmanship, thanks for making me :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
WeeJohnyB
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