Just for discussion (rain riders ?).

[brummydave]

Firstly a great big get well soon to all,especially Matt, and Bradders,All our thoughts are with you boys.
A great big well done to all on the various achievements from jimbos triple to Ross,s return, personal positives too numerous to mention the dd padock is up and running .
On a personal note the shoulder is back together but will be in gaffer tape for oulton !!,and it was great to see Keith Jackson (34) up and about after i hit him,and it was a big one ,so all good there.
More to the point,and bear in mind this is only for debate and are only my thoughts regarding rider safety-so here goes.
Firstly, now we are getting larger grids,should we have a staggered start allowing a and b better recognition of their achievements,and a safer passage for all as when it comes to lapping etc the pack is more strung out,and also reducing the first corner(S) melee .
secondly when it gets properly wet and i mean anglesey 3rd race wet when people are aqua planing at 100 mph plus should we have some kind of control.By this i mean ,for example,designate 2 class a,and 2 class b riders (rain riders)who would signal that the conditions are not suitable for competitive racing on our tyres.This of course would not incur any liability on the riders or club,but would at least be good practice to protect riders.The problem being that we are going out in full wet conditions on tyres that cannot shift that amount of water,and unfortunately people have been seriously hurt and from the outside it doesnt look good,and frustrates a lot of people.
I certainly dont want this to take away from people like jimbo who rode an absolutely legendary race,but to let us race in "normal" wet conditions,as i feel we have no protection from other parties who would have no real interest in voiding a race,when the other groups go out.
I know that we have every right to say that we dont want to race,but there is a certain pressure in a national championship that seems to push us out there,so i thought if we started a debate we may meet some medium that may move the series forward safely,
Finaly i thought i would share an intimate moment from the medical centre at anglesey,
hi dave
hi
which room ?
oh the usual!
oh whats that scar?
thats where i had my heart surgery.
Do you have angina.
No,and i dont have t*ts either,its my shoulder that hurts!!
some of the most embattled docs on the planet,you have to thank them for their dedication.
bring on oulton park (and dry racing !!):lol:

[Senna3]

Dave we had more crashes in the dry saterday than we had sunday in the wet . when we were in the collecting area waiting to go out for the last race three bikes crashed one arfter the other and those guys were out on wets .we had one or two who chose not to go out or pulled in thats there choice were not forced to go out in the wet ,besides these are road tyres if you were out on the road and it started raining would you stop and wait for it to dry up hopefully not lol you ride to the conditions you feel safe its just some feel more safer than others just my thought s on the matter

[ells]

We are doing the same as other race series, that use road tyres and no wets. That does not mean that it is right or wrong. Perhaps should be brought up if we have an end of year meeting like last year?

Mark

[antonye]

Perhaps should be brought up if we have an end of year meeting like last year?

Yes, I'm sure we will have the end-of-year meeting.

[bally71]

I think it's crazy that DD doesn't allow the use of wets

quite apart from the safety aspect they are simply amazing fun :D and promote much better racing which is surely what it's all about.

I havn't turned a wheel in a DD race yet but I can't imagine it being much fun wobbling around on road tyres and looking at the times it would seem to back up what I think.

[banger san]

Got to say I agree with Kev, we had fewer crashes in the wet than in the dry, so I don't think weather is an issue, better tyres only mean people will go quicker and push harder; ride to the conditions and to what you feel comfortable with. No matter what we try and do or what we put in place, it is a dangerous sport and while we hope it doesn't happen unfortunately every now and again people will get hurt. my two penith

[Spjallen]

Wet weather creates its own challenges. Riding in the wet just isnt as simple as putting wet tyres on. Ride to the condtions, find the grip, use different lines, different throttle control the list goes on and on.

[bally71]

but is it fun racing?

the times suggest that most people are nervously circulating and happy to get back without falling off.

just my opinion but that's not what it's about.

put wets on and you can still get knee down and the confidence and feel is great.

average lap times at the weekend where 2:10 to 2:20 .. I'd expect to drop that to around 1:50 to 1:55 ... 20 seconds a lap is a lot :eek:

[dunlop0_1]

Having been part of the "tyre" debate for a few yeras now I have to say my opinion has changed and totally agree with Kev P.

1. The series is designed to help maintain a low budget with subsidised tyre prices and no need for spare wheels.

2. If it's wet you can choose if you wish to go out or not.

3. There is now an option for the use of wets with the C1 class.

4. I had 5 crashes racing in DD all of them in the dry.

:D

[banger san]

I'm not sure how putting wets on promotes closer racing, those that are happy in the wet go quick those that aren't don't, changing tyres will not change that.
Also part of what attracted me to this class was the way it had been set up to try and keep a lid on costs, if we are allowed wets, then you have spare wheels, tyre warmers, if you're not in a garage you need a genny. Once we've played with better tyres in the wet and have tyre warmers will we then want to use the latest rubber that's stickier that our current Dunlops all which just do one thing, push the cost up and the quick guys will be even quicker but the rest of us won't be any closer.

[antonye]

put wets on and you can still get knee down and the confidence and feel is great.

I've got my knee down in the wet on the old Pirelli Diablos in a DD race, so this isn't the issue.

I think it's very clear that wet tyres will create more problems than they solve and are not, and have never been, in the spirit of what DD was created for.

Those are the rules for DD, and if you wish to race on wets there are plenty of other series which will happily take you.

/blunt ;)

[Cranker V2]

Rules is rules............if you dont have wets in the rules you cant use them. Makes no difference to me, when its wets my arse clamps up and I ride like a pussy, or fall off. I dont think the cost thing comes into it really, have you seen the number of spare wheels with new sets of tyres on in the DD paddock? A weekends wet racing could save some people 3-400quid by not using multiple sets off new tyres thougout the weekend.....Gennies not really an issue too, plent of people have them as well plenty of people booking onto garages.

For me, wets would be fun. BUT i am also happy enough with the rules as they are.

PS, my 620 now running...............

[antonye]

The other point to remember is that the rules reflect the wishes of majority of the paddock and not just a few individuals. If the paddock votes for wets, warmers, grid girls, naked riding, etc, then we would implement that as the rules.

As far as I am aware, there has never been a majority vote for wets in the paddock.

Some of the points here are worth noting - just having wets doesn't suddenly stop you falling off: the reason you fell off is because you didn't ride within the limits of the tyres you have, and wets have limits too! It may also increase the gap between the front and the back of the grid, so maybe having road tyres as a handicap is better for the racing? And statistics show that DD riders fall off just as much, if not more, in the dry than they do in the wet...

[bally71]

Those are the rules for DD, and if you wish to race on wets there are plenty of other series which will happily take you.


Happy to play by the rules .. doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on them.

Not racing because it rains isn't really an option .. Not unless the club are happy to refund the entry fee :frog:

No need for gennys .. Spare wheels cheap as chips and I can't see what problems it would bring.

Only use them when a race declared wet

Dunlop make them so could be supplied by the same tyre guy.

This argument obviously raises it's head on a regular basis .. maybe there's a good reason

[bally71]

The other point to remember is that the rules reflect the wishes of majority of the paddock and not just a few individuals. If the paddock votes for wets, warmers, grid girls, naked riding, etc, then we would implement that as the rules.

As far as I am aware, there has never been a majority vote for wets in the paddock.

Some of the points here are worth noting - just having wets doesn't suddenly stop you falling off: the reason you fell off is because you didn't ride within the limits of the tyres you have, and wets have limits too! It may also increase the gap between the front and the back of the grid, so maybe having road tyres as a handicap is better for the racing? And statistics show that DD riders fall off just as much, if not more, in the dry than they do in the wet...


Do we get to vote do we?

They may not stop you falling off but 20 secs a lap says they're more fun.

[antonye]

This argument obviously raises it's head on a regular basis .. maybe there's a good reason

Yes it does, and usually by people who have yet to race in DD?

[bally71]

Yes it does, and usually by people who have yet to race in DD?

Not really the point is it ..

[banger san]

You're quiet Dave, are you having a chuckle at the banter you started:lol:

[Ghost]

Racing in the wet is ok, but its the amount of standing water. If rain is too bad in F1 & Motogp the start is delayed. Those conditions for the last race in my opinion warranted an official to intervene and say lets give it a period of time to ease.

We were stopped after 6 laps at Brands a couple of years ago because of standing water. The river running down from Rocket was the cause of Matts off. Those tyres at racing speed cannot cope with 25mm + of standing water, possibly very few can.

So in summarry its a case of how bad is bad before someone says wait a while.

[antonye]

So in summarry its a case of how bad is bad before someone says wait a while.

...which is not something that the DSC can call, nor could the riders, as it would be down to the race organiser, and in our case Hottrax.

[antonye]

Not really the point is it ..

Why not? If you've not raced in the series with the rules as given, how can you have any experience?

If you look at the opinion of those who do have experience in the series, such as Kev and Mike, you'll see that they think the series doesn't need wets.


But as I said before up there ^^ we have rules so you know what you're signing up to before you race. If you don't like those rules, you don't have to race as nobody is forcing you to!!

/blunt ;)

[bally71]

[QUOTE=antonye]The other point to remember is that the rules reflect the wishes of majority of the paddock and not just a few individuals. If the paddock votes for wets, warmers, grid girls, naked riding, etc, then we would implement that as the rules.

QUOTE]

So when's the vote? :lol:

[bradders]

Ask Craig he may differ in opinion

IMHO Ghost has called it right: the organisers need to step up when it's too much and postpone or cut short the race/s

But then think of the abuse they will get when they stop a race from starting but won't give a refund....

[antonye]

Ask Craig he may differ in opinion

...which is the root of the problem; we all have differing opinions, so we have to go with the majority and not with what the "individual who shouts the loudest" wants!

This consultation/voting leads us to a set of rules, which you then either agree to and race with, or don't agree to and find a different series to race in.

[antonye]

So when's the vote? :lol:

The rule consultation period usually happens at the end of the year with rule changes being discussed and agreed as far advance in as possible, otherwise people moan that they don't know what the rules are for the next season.

However, should someone have serious concerns (about any issue) and wish to call a vote for all riders then as Chairman I am happy to listen and to see if we can accomodate those rule changes.

Be aware that major rule changes, such as tyres, would not be implemented until a new season and we would also need to have a consultation period which may include testing of the various options. If it was a major safety concern, or some smaller rule (ie, a rule refinement or clarification to stop cheating or suspected cheating) then these adjustments are easier to fit in during a season, but again we would expect to have a period of consultation to ensure that what we were doing was the right thing and in the spirit of what Desmo Due was created for.

[bradders]

I don't think cost can be levied by anyone as a genuine reason not to use wets. Most bikes have plenty of money spent on them, some lots, and many seem to have spare wheels. Do you have to have warmers?

Think it's only a discussion based on 2 things
Safety
Spirit of DD

Safety only seems an issue when as described by Ghost, and spirit of DD is cheap controlled racing which 1 control tyre suits

[bally71]

Ask Craig he may differ in opinion

IMHO Ghost has called it right: the organisers need to step up when it's too much and postpone or cut short the race/s

But then think of the abuse they will get when they stop a race from starting but won't give a refund....

Raises a valid point that the threshhold of what can be considered as "safe to race" would be lowered by the tyres ability to displace water .. Do you think Hottrax take this into account?

[Senna3]

Hottrax do take it in account as they did on sunday the clark of the course wash talking of delaying the racing because of the wind , its in there interest not to send us out if it was dangerous . personaly i dont see a problem riding in the rain ,i was having fun in all three races was happy to carry on ,i got my best results in the wet just got to be smooth and brake in a straight line . it brings out more ryder skills and if you relax its just as enjoyable . ive rode on wets on big bikes they have limits it gives you more confidence but can be over confident hence why we saw so many crash on wets on sunday

[brummydave]

well it certainly started a discussion,thanks to all for their bit.The bit i was getting at was not about wets or changing the spirit of dd,ghost-bradders and bally have the gist of what i was aiming at.I slid in the same puddles that caused matt to crash,i backed off cos i was already hurting ,It has happened before at snett 100mph plus on one foot and one wheel,even jimbo crashed out !!!but it was a championship race and you cant blame people for pushing.(at this point we need to have matts opinion for the reason of his crash)of course when he is well enough.All i was saying was ,that if at a certain point the prevailing conditions dictate that we wait for a start or postpone or void or stop the race we need to discuss options to control what happens.Sure i can pull off and stop,but i feel that hottrax (for all the best reasons)would have no reason to stop a race due to extreme weather-our rules say that we will race on control tyres,end of argument.If we start thinking about it now,we can fine tune something for next year.The thing that niggles is that we cannot get into any kind of scenario that may incur serious injuries so just a little food for thought.
by the way,on the safety front.I just got out of hospital
apparently the dyson ball cleaner is not what you think!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

[milesaway]

Every type of tyre has a limit of grip, wet or dry.
We manage to have more fallers in perfect dry warm conditions than in wet puddling conditions.
I figure the concept of racing involves riding as close as you dare to either your limit, bikes limit, or tyres limit, whichever is slowest. Racing in the wet has be to the limit of grip, or more your confidence in how much grip you think you have.
With the tyres we run that may not be that much, but they seem fairly predictable and the speed we can reach is considerably less. Therefore when we find that limit we will be going much slower, have more chance of catching it and hopefully hurt less if we loose it. This could be argued as being safer, and cant be disputed as simpler and cheaper. We may look a bit silly to onlookers who don't know what we are doing tiptoeing round, but that doesn't really matter.
Those that push it harder have a chance of gaining places to balance against a chance of falling off. We can all see the patches of standing (and running) water and make our choices whether to back off or gamble on them- letting someone go could loose you the place or equally gain it if they overestimate the grip- you pay your money and take your choice.
Personally i think the middle ground when it's patchy is the hardest and most dangerous when you will push harder where there's grip and maybe run out to a slippy bit- this will still be the case if we allowed wets and could so easily end up on the wrong tyre anyway.
I've had my 2p's worth now and reckon the rules are what they are, are fine, and are what we all chose to do- after all there are plenty of other classes where you can use any tyre and blow our season's tyre budget in a weekend if that's your thing. If we were trying to go 140mph+ with 120bhp+ it may be a whole different story, but I'd rather do this as it's a different kind of challenge and a whole lot of fun!!

[brummydave]

absolutely right miles,and your reply totally encompasses the dd spirit that i enjoyed and still enjoy.however the crux of what i am getting at is"lets talk now about making changes at the end of the season regarding weather conditions that are outside of an agreed window for our tyres" what if it snows,what if its icy,what if the water is too deep or extreme.if the rules say race on the grass ,then i will (and have )

[bradders]

Dave - how happy would you be to take a decision it's ok for everyone to race, for then someone to have an incident because of the conditions?

Now I'm happy to make decisions and stand by them and willing to debate the reasons for any of them, but tbh I wouldn't ever want that kind of responsibility.

IMHO leave that to the organisers; we should be concentrating on anything which makes the racing cheaper, or more competitive or more fun Or all three :)

[Andy C]

Can i just say that i didn't have one front end tuck or rear slide all weekend! i found the standing water, where Matt crashed on lap 1 and rolled off at that point every lap thereafter. Matt didn't know about it untill the bike went sideways, unfortunatly to late and he was on the grass by then. Matt and myself have disscussed this at length a number of times this week and have both come to the conclusion that it would have taken race control to make the call, cause we'd both gone out there and raced! Those around me know that i've requested the use of wets be allowed for racing a number of times over the years, but i really don't have a problem running on the tyres that are currently used. Matt would not have crashed if we'd been on wets and yes the wet lap times would drop. There was lots of grip at Anglesey, more so than Oulton last year, where you could hardly lean the bike as it was tucking left, right and centre. I would leave the call to race control to make to be honest. If your unsure, don't go out. It's not excactly MotoGP, just enjoy it for what it is.

[Ghost]

You must have had one Andy, as you were on the floor when I came around Rocket. :eek:

Can i just say that i didn't have one front end tuck or rear slide all weekend! i found the standing water, where Matt crashed on lap 1 and rolled off at that point every lap thereafter. Matt didn't know about it untill the bike went sideways, unfortunatly to late and he was on the grass by then. Matt and myself have disscussed this at length a number of times this week and have both come to the conclusion that it would have taken race control to make the call, cause we'd both gone out there and raced! Those around me know that i've requested the use of wets be allowed for racing a number of times over the years, but i really don't have a problem running on the tyres that are currently used. Matt would not have crashed if we'd been on wets and yes the wet lap times would drop. There was lots of grip at Anglesey, more so than Oulton last year, where you could hardly lean the bike as it was tucking left, right and centre. I would leave the call to race control to make to be honest. If your unsure, don't go out. It's not excactly MotoGP, just enjoy it for what it is.

[dunlop0_1]

You know I can't leave you lot alone for a minute. Weren't like this back in my day. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway even though I got to use wets on the 996 a part of me missed the DD tyre. I think Miles is right in what he said that using the Dunlop in the wet can sort of increase safety somewhat maybe due to the reduced speed or higher awareness of the conditions
As I and others said earlier you don't have to go out ! just ask Dallas he refuses to go out in the wet where as James Stevenson seems to excell in the wet.
Ok you've paid to race and you don't get a refund well so what. If I was unsure about my ability to go out in the wet I would choose loosing a £75 race value rather than trashing myself and the bike.

I didn't do the last race at Snett because I was to tired which I know was the right call.

:D

[Shaggyboy]

I hate the rain, that's why I have paid extra for sunshine at Oulton

[bally71]

lol i hope so .. gets awful slippery under them trees

[Spjallen]

Forcast is rain!

[numbskull]

I guess i'm the only person who doesn't WANT to have to change wheels during a race weekend!

[Gbyte666]

Forcast is rain!

Wets still on my 1C from Anglesey ;)

Still slower than the A & B bikes out there in the wet but I dont mind it at all now on Wets.

Craig

[Spjallen]

Some people were asking about if you need warmers on wets. Well wet tyres operate best around 40 degrees. If you can't regulate your warmers to that (most tyre warmers are set to eighty) then you are heating the tyres up too much. You would be able to feel the difference in grip as the extra and unrequired heat dissipates from the tyre and they settle around the operating temp - 40 degrees - in the first few laps. This change in grip level can fool you into thinking you have more than you do and again as the temp drops you won't be able to do what you could initally when they came off the warmers.
In a nutshell, yes you do, but they will hear up very quickly without.

[brummydave]

i personally really dont think wets is our answer,maybe race control could be more aware of our tyre abilities in extreme conditions .Its not a blame thing,and like miles says and dallas does its your option and your right hand.

[Ghost]

i personally really dont think wets is our answer,maybe race control could be more aware of our tyre abilities in extreme conditions .Its not a blame thing,and like miles says and dallas does its your option and your right hand.

+1 to that BD, I would think someone from Dunlop also could contribute to this by saying what is or isn't reasonable to race in. :eek:

[Spjallen]

Just stick with the series how it is. Listen the the experienced DD riders like Kev and Ghost. Miles and the Pieman have it spot on.

[skidlids]

I thought Miles post was a good take on the situation

I thought allowing people to drop rounds was a good way of allowing them to opt out or pull out of some wet races, but from last years rider meeting and form filling that wasn't wanted for this season.

Gusting winds as we had at Anglesey doesn't help in the wet especially if you have flat sided fairings as even on a moderte amount of lean the wind can catch the fairing lifting some of the weight off the bike and off of the tyres making it easier for the tyres to break away especially the rear under power.

Now for a few statistics from Anglesey
'
In our final race on sunday the one in where the Red Flag was shown following Matt's crash the fastest lap was set by Matt at 2m 09s some 23s slower than his recorded best dry lap of the weekend.
The following race in simialr conditions had Craig out on his 996 using wets and warmers his best lap was a 2m 12s lap some 29s slower than his best recoreded dry lap of the weekend.

As the rebuild of my 600SS engine came to a halt earlier due to lack of O-rings to go between the barrells and the crankcases I thought I would have a look at some of the results from Anglesey.

Not yet complete as I haven't checked all the races for the conditions they were held in. And as with statistics they don't paint the whole picture, for example in the final DD race although 18% didn't get to the red flag only Matt was a faller.
But by far our worst race as afr as non finishers goes was the original running of race 1 in the dry. Also note DD had a higher number of entrants to start with so provides a higher chance of producing non finishers.
Worst statisic of the day was the Michelin Power cup 1000 with less than 2/3rds of the field finishing and on the whole we faired better than the Michelin power cup 600 riders over the 3 races and were on Par with the grid Craig was on


Desmo Due (started with a grid of 30)

race 1 - dry almost 77% of the starting grid survived
race 1 - (The rerun) Wet 92% of the starting grid finished
race 2 - Damp - 88% Finished
race 3 - Wet almost 82% of the starters were classed as runners at the Red Flag
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Superbike/Supercup/Class1C/etc (started with a grid of 12)

Race 1 - Dry 75% of the starters finished
Race 2 - Dry(ish) almost 82% finished
Race 3 - Wet 91% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Michelin Power Cup 600 (started with a grid of 22)

Race 1 - 77% finished
Race 2 - 76% finished
Race 3 - Wet 81% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Michelin Power cup 1000 (started with a grid of 10)

Race 1 - 100% finished
Race 2 - 89% finished
Race 3 - Wet 62.5% finished

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Moto Grande 600 (started with a grid of 24)

Race 1 - 84% finished
Race 2 - 91% finished
Race 3 - 84% finished
Race 4 - 94% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Moto Grande 1000 (started with a grid of 24)

Race 1 - 87% finished
Race 2 - 81% finished
Race 3 - 95% finished
Race 4 - 94% finished

[Gbyte666]

Intresting stats.
Just shows it's near enough the same for all classes dry/wet.

Craig

[PDL]

Wets only make laps quicker for those who are used to using them, confident in them and with experience of when to use them. Last season I finished ahead of 100 bhp bikes in a rookie race in the wet on my 600 ss. Using wets is a right old faff if you don't have a third set of wheels with inters that would mean six sets of tyres to cover punctures making it very expensive. DD already has a level playing field with a control bike and a road tyre. You don't need wets, don't brake something that doesn't need fixing. You don't need warmers on wets but this then relies on you getting a good warm up lap and if you cant see due to rain you can't get the heat into wets which then adds no value. There is an theory that says slicks are the best wet tyre if you can keep the heat in and don't gas it leant over. Introducing wets would be a bad decision, I run em in club racing because I have to but I've been out in the damp this season and matched my wet time on power one race tyres. Now that doesn't add up does it.

[Jolley]

Racing in the wet is ok, but its the amount of standing water. If rain is too bad in F1 & Motogp the start is delayed. Those conditions for the last race in my opinion warranted an official to intervene and say lets give it a period of time to ease.
Standing water can be a problem, but whenever I have encountered it in a race I have backed off (Snett in 2011 for example). A Hottrax decision about how much is too much standing water is the only way forward. I think they have to make this call on their own.


With the tyres we run that may not be that much, but they seem fairly predictable and the speed we can reach is considerably less. Therefore when we find that limit we will be going much slower, have more chance of catching it and hopefully hurt less if we loose it.
This was exactly my point when this was discussed last year. Less grip = less speed = more time to react = better to build the skills to learn to ride in the wet (plus, any accident is at a much lower speed). Depending on how much standing water Matt hit, it could still have happened on wets, but his injuries could have been even worse

Dave, back on the original point, I don't think riders reps would help. I would certainly have volunteered myself, and I can't think of many conditions (other than snow and ice) that I wouldn't go and race in. In my eyes it was always an opportunity to level the field to my slower bike.

As for the "only another set of wheels/tyres" comments: I raced from an estate car with a trailer (it was the cheapest option for me, and if I had had to buy a van I may not have raced). Anyway, my point being that I already took bike, tools, Gazeebo, spares (including a set of wheels/tyres so I could practice on an old set and put new ones on for qually/race), food, riding gear, fuel and other bits and pieces. I (by that I mean my suspension and space!) simply couldn't have coped with "just another" set of wheels/tyres..... as it was, I didn't take spare fairings because of space.

As a novice I struggled enough with learning how my bike behaved, and with the rules as they are I could just go out in the wet and expect the same, but less... it is simple as it should be. We are all capable of getting our bikes around a race distance in one piece (wet or dry), it just comes down to how comfortable you are to push. Generally people are less comfortable in the wet, so they push less, and there are generally about the same number of finishers wet or dry. It is a choice to go out, and it is a choice to push. I don't think we can blame Hottrax for how much we want to push. However, I personally don't think Hottrax should allow you out if there is a lot of standing water, because this is particularly difficult to deal with.

In short - No wets, but maybe raise the issue with standing water with hottrax.

[ells]

In short - No wets, but maybe raise the issue with standing water with hottrax.

+1 on what Ron said. There are going to be at some point conditions where the majority of riders consider it dangerous. This is when we need a way to nudge the organisers and say - this aint right.

Mark.

[brummydave]

yaay,another one that has been there and can see through the fuzz of a conveluted argument,i suppose if we focus in the general direction of no wets but maybe call or void the race race in exceptional circumstances then we are going in the right direction.However the track did seem to flood in rather a short period at anglsey,maybe this is due to the coastal location.

[dunlop0_1]

Another thing to take in consideration which is new to me after DD is this.

When you are looking at the sky 10 minutes before your race starts deciding which tyres to go with your stress level goes throught the roof just thinking about changing the wheels. :o

Was bit wet though. :eek:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/dunlop0_1/RYE_7901.jpg

[bradders]

I sense some manipulation in the numbers Kev; race 3 wet are you considering Andy C as a finisher? Is so that's manipulation of data. If not I apologise.

Otherwise good work....clearly as bored as I am right now ;)

[bradders]

[QUOTE=

As for the "only another set of wheels/tyres" comments: I raced from an estate car with a trailer (it was the cheapest option for me, and if I had had to buy a van I may not have raced). Anyway, my point being that I already took bike, tools, Gazeebo, spares (including a set of wheels/tyres so I could practice on an old set and put new ones on for qually/race), food, riding gear, fuel and other bits and pieces. I (by that I mean my suspension and space!) simply couldn't have coped with "just another" set of wheels/tyres..... as it was, I didn't take spare fairings because of space.

[/QUOTE]

So you already had a spate set ;)

Totally agree with direction it seems to be going: leave it to race control but be mindful if a race gets scrubbed there's no whinging ;)

[skidlids]

I sense some manipulation in the numbers Kev; race 3 wet are you considering Andy C as a finisher? Is so that's manipulation of data. If not I apologise.

Otherwise good work....clearly as bored as I am right now ;)

On my Spread sheet I had both figures, but as the result was taken at the end of lap 4 without Matt being included as the cause of the Red Flag then at that time the figure relates to those still out on track incliduing Andy, a DQ for other reasons enforced after the race is called removing him from the result doesn't change the the amount of riders out on track at the end of lap 4.

As the idea behind looking at the Stats was to do a comparison between the amount of riders still racing when the result is declared against those that started the race but didn't finish for one reason or another then including Andy is needed for a fair comparison, not doing it this way would be manipulating the figures,

As for having spare wheels for Wets I wouldn't bother I would just bring the Wet bike :)

[Ghost]

yaay,another one that has been there and can see through the fuzz of a conveluted argument,i suppose if we focus in the general direction of no wets but maybe call or void the race race in exceptional circumstances then we are going in the right direction.However the track did seem to flood in rather a short period at anglsey,maybe this is due to the coastal location.

As I said in a previous post Brands a couple of years ago was stopped after 6 laps as conditions were too bad in the organisers opinion due to standing water at the base of paddock.

Personally, for me, that race wasn't as bad as Anglesey was. So tyres are fine, but race control need to call it, I assume they would get direction from the marshalling posts as to the depth of standing water.

[Ghost]

Another thing to take in consideration which is new to me after DD is this.

When you are looking at the sky 10 minutes before your race starts deciding which tyres to go with your stress level goes throught the roof just thinking about changing the wheels. :o

Was bit wet though. :eek:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/dunlop0_1/RYE_7901.jpg

Is that you in a Duvet you fat git. :D

[bradders]

On my Spread sheet I had both figures, but as the result was taken at the end of lap 4 without Matt being included as the cause of the Red etc etc :)

So what was it with Andy out? Will be the worst of the weekend for DD won't it?


Take the wet bike; love it :D

[milesaway]

I hate the rain, that's why I have paid extra for sunshine at Oultonthink you may have been ripped off coz the forecast looks pretty shite

[dunlop0_1]

Is that you in a Duvet you fat git. :D

No just big boned.......:lol:

Actually due to Welsh air pressure and fluctuations in the Yen things may appear larger than real. :frog:

[Senna3]

we had two bad crashes on saturday in hot and dry conditions , because people push harder and ride ubove limits so perhaps we shouldent race when its hot and dry . ffs wot are we a knitting club or race club

[Ghost]

I'll raise you two knit rows to one pearl.

[skidlids]

So what was it with Andy out? Will be the worst of the weekend for DD won't it?



Just over 77% so still Not as bad as Saturday's attempts at running race 1

Big difference is that when the 2nd red flag came out on Saturday, there had been 4 fallers and zero retirements, where as in race 3 on Sunday when the red flag came out there was 1 faller and several retirements.

[Senna3]

Just over 77% so still Not as bad as Saturday's attempts at running race 1

Big difference is that when the 2nd red flag came out on Saturday, there had been 4 fallers and zero retirements, where as in race 3 on Sunday when the red flag came out there was 1 faller and several retirements.

Like i said perhaps we shouldent race in the dry:devil:

[skidlids]

Another thing to take in consideration which is new to me after DD is this.

When you are looking at the sky 10 minutes before your race starts deciding which tyres to go with your stress level goes throught the roof just thinking about changing the wheels. :o

Was bit wet though. :eek:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/dunlop0_1/RYE_7901.jpg

Get a Wet bike then all you need to decide is which one to put the transponder on, a lot quicker than changing wheels. It reduces the Stress Levels
Been there Done it :)

[skidlids]

At times you would think we had short sprint races of only 6 laps or so as with New Era, but we now have races of 10, 12 or 14 laps (which is what we're paying for), twice as many laps to try and get a result
at times you wouldn't think so and at times the actual races end up getting reduced to 6 laps or so after having to be stopped, quite often in dry conditions

[Senna3]

At times you would think we had short sprint races of only 6 laps or so as with New Era, but we now have races of 10, 12 or 14 laps (which is what we're paying for), twice as many laps to try and get a result
at times you wouldn't think so and at times the actual races end up getting reduced to 6 laps or so after having to be stopped, quite often in dry conditions


Obviously the tyres arent up to the power and speed our bikes are putting out in the dry , we need slicks and tyre warmers :devil:

[Senna3]

I'll raise you two knit rows to one pearl.

ill raise you two pearl rows to one cabbage one

[bradders]

Cool idea, let's go slicks and wets :D

[Ghost]

I'm happy as we are first two races were fine, last race very questionable. :eek:

[chris.p]

Cool idea, let's go slicks and wets :D


One set missing there Paul, you will also need a set of wheels with Inters on.


Chris:burn:

[Senna3]

Cool idea, let's go slicks and wets :D

sod it lets fit nobblys seems half the field seem to go grass tracking :lol: :lol: :lol:

[skidlids]

sod it lets fit nobblys seems half the field seem to go grass tracking :lol: :lol: :lol:


Maybe the best bike option would be the 620 Multistrada then, nearest thing allowed in the class to a supermoto

[bally71]

I'm not to fussed about the safety aspect totally agree we are racing and 90% of it is in your right wrist

Some of you guys are quite rightly saying that race control need to be aware that our tyre is limited in comparison to a wet and should consider wether or not it's safe to let us out

but what happens then .. I'd be gutted watching others race just because I couldn't change my tyres.

And my real point about wets was that they are great fun .. and that's why I race .. because I like doing it and lets face it it's not a cheap hobby.

I'm on a moderate wage and I fund my racing myself as I'm sure most DD's do ... 300 odd quid is a lot to me and I know I'll be completely gutted wobbling around at novice trackday pace knowing I'm wasting my hard earned.

Looks like I'll get my chance to try it Sat .. I'll be the grumpy lookin fecker in need of a hug :lol:

[milesaway]

as we're diversifying into knitting maybe we could knit some tyre cosies and use them instead of warmers

[Shaggyboy]

as we're diversifying into knitting maybe we could knit some tyre cosies and use them instead of warmers

It's a dangerous sport this knitting, them needles can do some damage make sure you wear eye protectors

[badgerpilot]

Just to lob my 2 penneth in.
Keep the rules as they are and well done to those who don't mind the watery stuff, personally I detest the rain and the idea of forking out £200+ of my own hard-earned to do something I don't like seems silly. Going out on track in the wet isn't racing for me, it's pottering round to maybe grab a couple of championship points. For me, the decision to enter on the day is well worth the extra £20 as I'd rather waste that than the full entry fee hating my track time, but this is purely a personal decision.
To have Hottrax make the call on whether we go out seems logical but as soon as time starts to get tight and the track is slightly moist you can guarantee we'll get scrubbed because to be totally honest I don't feel we are taken particularly seriously. The hope of any refund is somewhere between Bob and no and once they have over 6 grand (30 riders at £200+) in their bank we are just a hinderance to them so scrubbing our race on 'safety' reasons is just easy money.

On another point, can someone tell the Motors TV commentator the difference between A and B classes, white or yellow number boards aint rocket science is it??






All opinions in this post are purely those of the author, but cos it's me it makes them all correct.

[antonye]

On the subject of the TV coverage, Barry Nutley will be the new commentator - he used to commentate on BSB for ITV as well as being an ex-racer himself.

[numbskull]

But can he distinguish between yellow and white?

[Spjallen]

He's great, gets well excited!!

[numbskull]

But can he distinguish between yellow and white?


Still the question remains...

[bally71]

Just to lob my 2 penneth in.
Keep the rules as they are and well done to those who don't mind the watery stuff, personally I detest the rain and the idea of forking out £200+ of my own hard-earned to do something I don't like seems silly. Going out on track in the wet isn't racing for me, it's pottering round to maybe grab a couple of championship points. For me, the decision to enter on the day is well worth the extra £20 as I'd rather waste that than the full entry fee hating my track time, but this is purely a personal decision.
To have Hottrax make the call on whether we go out seems logical but as soon as time starts to get tight and the track is slightly moist you can guarantee we'll get scrubbed because to be totally honest I don't feel we are taken particularly seriously. The hope of any refund is somewhere between Bob and no and once they have over 6 grand (30 riders at £200+) in their bank we are just a hinderance to them so scrubbing our race on 'safety' reasons is just easy money.




+1 to that .. didn't know you could enter on the day

[bradders]

So far this year, my experience of Hottrax is they give us as much slack as anyone else. Sure we get the novice group on test days, but that's because a few moaned about being with the axe murders (rightly for a couple as they were punted off!!) so who else can they put us with?

I'm sure it's always been in their gift to pull races for poor conditions, maybe they just don't appreciate the difference between our tyres and wets. From what I hear, it was only the sat race at Anglesey that was the issue, and we had Snetterton last year, so possibly he answer is to help them understand the line between saf and not. And if he decision is made agree we won't chuck dummies

[mat2hew]

Hi chaps,

I have to say I've always liked the Dunlops in wet or dry, and I've always considered myself a pretty good wet weather rider and always enjoyed the challenge of 'weather'.

with regard to my accident,,, did I take the standing/running water too fast?,,,,, Maybe,,,, if I'd have backed off a bit more maybe it wouldn't have happened,, I don't think I did anything particularly wrong, I didn't do anything I hadn't done on every other lap,,, I did feel that I was catching Andy 'Lightning' Challis and was obviously pushing to catch up, not wanting him to get even further ahead in the championship.

Basically,,, My fault,,, an error in judgement,

I'd not had any problems at all up to that moment, and it was just a small slide in exactly the wrong second.

with Hind sight ,,,, If the race was cancelled I wouldn't have been happy, But, Not hurt now.

I thought I could win that race and would have said "yep lets race" if I was asked before hand.

I dunno what the answer to all these questions is,,, sorry chaps.

Matt.

[Spjallen]

The rain is a lot worse here at Oulton than our last race the wind is forecast to get up too. Hopefully the lessons from anglesey have been hoisted on board. I love the wet but not sure if this race weekend will be on :( - for any riders, wets or no wets.

[badgerpilot]

+1 to that .. didn't know you could enter on the day

Yeh, for an extra £20 'admin' fee and providing there is space on the grid.
Worth it IMHO.

[Spjallen]

I might change my mind now, maybe wets is a good idea!!??!!

[Si1208]

Yes - I'm having second thoughts on that particular subject too!

[dunlop0_1]

I have raced with most if not all of you in the past 3 years and like many people moaned when it was wet. However, all of my DD crashes (6 of them) as I said earlier where in the dry. I agree with the fact that whatever tyre is available you have to find it's limit wet/dry whatever.
I think a big part of the problem is the test days being mixed with people on faster bikes and using wets. Now given the income DD generates for Hottrax I would have thought some pressure/leverage could be applied to allocate DD it's own test day sessions?
Another thing to consider is that the weather is not just wet or dry. So making the tyre call 15 minutes before you race isn't excactly enjoyable. At Oulton on Saturday I made 6 wheel changes and 2 tyres changes and still got it wrong for MG qualy and MG race one so had to miss race one and start at the back of the grid for race 2. Then in Supercup race one started as a full wet race dried out almost straight away leading to a completley destroyed rear tyre (which costs more than a pair of DD Dunlops).
I assure a cooked wet rear in the dry is worse than using a slick in the wet.
So given the fact I had all the kit it still comes down to making the right or wrong decision sometimes at the last minute.

Not an issue for DD at the mo. :)

[mat2hew]

I remember back to when I had my 999, I did a track day at Mallory Park, I missed the first session because it was wet and I had Slicks on,,, then I did 1 lap of session 2 in the dry with wets on, then it was lovely and sunny so I put my slicks back on, and you guessed it in the queue at the pit lane it rained so the wets went back on and it dried up at lunch time so I did 1 more lap in the dry with wets on, the whole day went like that and I was really miserable by the time I went home having travelled 3 hours each way spent £100 on the track day taken time off work and did about 6 laps on the wrong tyres and changing wheels all day long.

At the other end of the scale the 'team' in the tent next to me were able to change both wheels in about 3 mins and didn't miss a session all day.

[bally71]

What if the club decided when it was ok to use them?

I mean like call a wet race .. but only when it's really wet.

If the original suggestion was to call races if the conditions are too bad for the dunlops .. why not just make the call for all riders to change to wets.

half an hour before the race start if it's chucking down on a cold day with little or no chance of drying out .. quick text / tannoy announcement

Would save all the hassle of should I or shouldn't I

Decision would depend on a lot of factors other than just the rain of course

On the friday it was chucking it down and the track was drying in about 20 mins .. no need for wets

but on the sat the temp had dropped, the drizzle was constant and the wind was cold .. race 2 was always going to be wet.

The track plays a part too .. Anglesey is suprisingly grippy in the wet .. Oulton is a nightmare around druids and Brittens and not that great elsewhere

Oulton subtantiated my original opinion that the majority of riders appear to be circulating hoping not to fall off rather than racing

[Spjallen]

I was definitely racing and not circulating at Oulton in race 2. It may not be knee down chuck it on its side stuff but its still racing.

Having the choice is part of which tyres is part of the fun / tactics so restrictions of "it’s a wet race so you all have to put wets on" isn’t really the answer. Wet front dry rear etc. I think this thread is getting way too long and nothing can be changed before the end of the season so maybe we should just leave it well alone. Its aint broke, don’t fix it.

[Ghost]

I was definatley racing and not circulating at Oulton in race 2. It may not be knee down chuck it on its side stuff but its still racing.

Having the choice is part of which tyres is part of the fun / tactics so restrictions of "its a wet race so you all have to put wets on" isnt really the answer. Wet front dry rear etc. I think this thread is getting way too long and nothing can be changed before the end of the season so maybe we should just leave it well alone. Its aint broke, dont fix it.

Tactics, arn't they supposed to give you fresh breath. :D

[bally71]

I was definatley racing and not circulating at Oulton in race 2. It may not be knee down chuck it on its side stuff but its still racing.

Having the choice is part of which tyres is part of the fun / tactics so restrictions of "its a wet race so you all have to put wets on" isnt really the answer. Wet front dry rear etc. I think this thread is getting way too long and nothing can be changed before the end of the season so maybe we should just leave it well alone. Its aint broke, dont fix it.

No offence but that may be your opinion .. it's not mine

And that's what forums are for aint they??

[Senna3]

I was definitely racing and not circulating at Oulton in race 2. It may not be knee down chuck it on its side stuff but its still racing.

Having the choice is part of which tyres is part of the fun / tactics so restrictions of "it’s a wet race so you all have to put wets on" isn’t really the answer. Wet front dry rear etc. I think this thread is getting way too long and nothing can be changed before the end of the season so maybe we should just leave it well alone. Its aint broke, don’t fix it.

well said that man totaly agree

[Shaggyboy]

I think after Oulton I should have a pair of knobblies to put on, I might stand a chance of staying upright when on the grass:o

[badgerpilot]

Think youre thinking of Tic Tacs Phil, dementia is a pain at times!

The tactics of DD are simple, if it's wet:- do you race or not, if you race then how hard do you push? If you don't then do you have a brew or a beer?

These were the rules when we all signed up so why do we have this conversation every year?

I know let's have wets, hang on, why not have a wet bike and a dry bike. That would save the wheel swapping issue!

Another brain wave has just hit me, let's use 1098s with traction control instead? That would make cornering in the wet safer wouldn't it?

While we're at it lets make it compulsary to have a 90ft Winnebago so we don't have cosy sleep problems either?

This only leaves 1 snag, how do justify calling it budget racing?

DD is probably the quirkiest series out there because of its rules and the great people who take part in it, I've had 3yrs of brilliant fun and wouldn't want it to change at all.

[Ghost]

Think youre thinking of Tic Tacs Phil, dementia is a pain at times!

The tactics of DD are simple, if it's wet:- do you race or not, if you race then how hard do you push? If you don't then do you have a brew or a beer?

These were the rules when we all signed up so why do we have this conversation every year?

I know let's have wets, hang on, why not have a wet bike and a dry bike. That would save the wheel swapping issue!

Another brain wave has just hit me, let's use 1098s with traction control instead? That would make cornering in the wet safer wouldn't it?

While we're at it lets make it compulsary to have a 90ft Winnebago so we don't have cosy sleep problems either?

This only leaves 1 snag, how do justify calling it budget racing?

DD is probably the quirkiest series out there because of its rules and the great people who take part in it, I've had 3yrs of brilliant fun and wouldn't want it to change at all.

HERE HERE!! :)

[dunlop0_1]

Think youre thinking of Tic Tacs Phil, dementia is a pain at times!

The tactics of DD are simple, if it's wet:- do you race or not, if you race then how hard do you push? If you don't then do you have a brew or a beer?

These were the rules when we all signed up so why do we have this conversation every year?

I know let's have wets, hang on, why not have a wet bike and a dry bike. That would save the wheel swapping issue!

Another brain wave has just hit me, let's use 1098s with traction control instead? That would make cornering in the wet safer wouldn't it?

While we're at it lets make it compulsary to have a 90ft Winnebago so we don't have cosy sleep problems either?

This only leaves 1 snag, how do justify calling it budget racing?

DD is probably the quirkiest series out there because of its rules and the great people who take part in it, I've had 3yrs of brilliant fun and wouldn't want it to change at all.


Ditto

[Senna3]

Think youre thinking of Tic Tacs Phil, dementia is a pain at times!

The tactics of DD are simple, if it's wet:- do you race or not, if you race then how hard do you push? If you don't then do you have a brew or a beer?

These were the rules when we all signed up so why do we have this conversation every year?

I know let's have wets, hang on, why not have a wet bike and a dry bike. That would save the wheel swapping issue!

Another brain wave has just hit me, let's use 1098s with traction control instead? That would make cornering in the wet safer wouldn't it?

While we're at it lets make it compulsary to have a 90ft Winnebago so we don't have cosy sleep problems either?

This only leaves 1 snag, how do justify calling it budget racing?

DD is probably the quirkiest series out there because of its rules and the great people who take part in it, I've had 3yrs of brilliant fun and wouldn't want it to change at all.
Well said that man :D

[Spjallen]

Thank you lord, some sense!!! That's the end of this thread then.

[bradders]

:lol: it's never the simple Simon....

[milesaway]

Think youre thinking of Tic Tacs Phil, dementia is a pain at times!

The tactics of DD are simple, if it's wet:- do you race or not, if you race then how hard do you push? If you don't then do you have a brew or a beer?

These were the rules when we all signed up so why do we have this conversation every year?

I know let's have wets, hang on, why not have a wet bike and a dry bike. That would save the wheel swapping issue!

Another brain wave has just hit me, let's use 1098s with traction control instead? That would make cornering in the wet safer wouldn't it?

While we're at it lets make it compulsary to have a 90ft Winnebago so we don't have cosy sleep problems either?

This only leaves 1 snag, how do justify calling it budget racing?

DD is probably the quirkiest series out there because of its rules and the great people who take part in it, I've had 3yrs of brilliant fun and wouldn't want it to change at all.
x3!!

[dunlop0_1]

Incase you where wondering?

In prep for DSC trackday tomoz I timed myself changing the wheels on Toni's monster.
Tools and stands laid out ready and not rushing it took me 8m and 2s, is that about the length of the 3 tanoy calls ;)

[skidlids]

Incase you where wondering?

In prep for DSC trackday tomoz I timed myself changing the wheels on Toni's monster.
Tools and stands laid out ready and not rushing it took me 8m and 2s, is that about the length of the 3 tanoy calls ;)

Is that single or twin disc front end Neil

NGRRCs Final round of 2010 at Silverstone the Open class lined up on the grid when the heavens opened and the Race was then declared wet. The riders were given 10 minutes to change their tyres and return to the grid, this included getting back to the pits with the bikes on slicks and the track wets.
If it took 8 minutes to change the wheels that would leave 1 minutes to get off the grid and return to the pits and another minute to get back to the grid from the pits.
Only half the grid made it, our tyre change took around 4 minutes so it wasn't a problem as we had one person doing the front wheel (Me) and another person doing the rear, could have been a bit quicker if it was single disc, but I wouldn't recommend that setup on a Ex Jentin Racing R1

I like Scott's take on it so +1 more to that

[bally71]

done it countless times (at least 6 lol) racing at anglesey

got used to changing the wheels .. 10 mins to change both no problem (with my pit crew consisting of me, me and me)

always saw it as part of the fun.

and it beats wobbling round like a girl (no offence meant to girls who can believe it or not sometimes be able to ride bikes very fast)

[steve41]

Think youre thinking of Tic Tacs Phil, dementia is a pain at times!

The tactics of DD are simple, if it's wet:- do you race or not, if you race then how hard do you push? If you don't then do you have a brew or a beer?

These were the rules when we all signed up so why do we have this conversation every year?

I know let's have wets, hang on, why not have a wet bike and a dry bike. That would save the wheel swapping issue!

Another brain wave has just hit me, let's use 1098s with traction control instead? That would make cornering in the wet safer wouldn't it?

While we're at it lets make it compulsary to have a 90ft Winnebago so we don't have cosy sleep problems either?

This only leaves 1 snag, how do justify calling it budget racing?

DD is probably the quirkiest series out there because of its rules and the great people who take part in it, I've had 3yrs of brilliant fun and wouldn't want it to change at all.


Been on holiday for the last few weeks,missed all the banter, and wont be at Cadwell due to other reasons>

But I agree with this after experiance, I live in Scotland FFS!!!!

Racing in Scotland means needing to ride in the rain, but the stress of deciding if wet enough, getting wheels changed, sitting on the grid and thinking did I tighten that bolt/nut!!!!! It stopped race weekends being enjoyable for me. You change to wets, you then need to think about suspension set up, and you need to know how quick to push it on wetss

I travel to DD meetings because it is enjoyable, there are great people, regulations are controlled and monitored, and racing is fun because it is a simple as it gets.

And yes I do enjoy riding on wets.

SGD

[Ghost]

See you at Donnington then Steve.