Hopefully thats my false Neutrals sorted

[skidlids]

For the last couple of rounds at Anglesey and Oulton I have been surrering a few gear shift problems, namely when trying to change down from 6th to 3rd in a short distance, such as the run into the Shell Oils hairpin and no doubt it would also have been a issue into Park in a couple of weeks time.

If I did try changing down 3 gears in short succession I would let out the clutch and find I was in a false neutral between 2nd and 3rd gear, where the selector drum had over shifted. Going down another gear results in a locked rear wheel so if it happened it was a case of shifting back up a gear into 3rd

I did think about just trying to adjust it but decided to buy a replacement gear selector first.
Well today I stripped the Alternator casing and the flywheel off and removed the gear selector and this is what I found.

[dunlop0_1]

Bet your glad it was just the selector arm and not a split the casings senario. :eek:

[skidlids]

If I had to go that far Neil it could wait until the winter, quick fix would be to either chuck one of my other engines in or use the Wet bike :)

[batesy2]

Hi Kev,Mine does that sometimes but its 5 speed,Is it the same assembly?
Where can i buy that part if thats my problem please?

[skidlids]

Hi Brian, yep should be the same part, I bought mine off Ebay although it was was from a 800 Monster S2R, I went for the newer the bike the better as less likely to have suffered to much wear also a bike not likely to be hammered around a race track

[Spjallen]

Great photos, any chance of a simple explaination of how it works?

[skidlids]

Great photos, any chance of a simple explaination of how it works?

Probably easier to explain at Cadwell

But in brief the claw part that sits at the top of the selector drum pulls the dogs on the drum either left or right depending on which way you are shifting, this rotates the drum moving the gear selector forks.
The limit of each shift movement is goverened by the part that sits in the centre of the drum hitting the wall of the drum and preventing futher movement.
In my case the bit that sits in the centre of the drum had one edge broken which caused the claw part to travel to far on down shifts, hence over rotating the drum and moving the selector forks to a position where they didn't engage a gear, more often than not it was in a position between 2nd and 3rd gear

[batesy2]

Hi Brian, yep should be the same part, I bought mine off Ebay although it was was from a 800 Monster S2R, I went for the newer the bike the better as less likely to have suffered to much wear also a bike not likely to be hammered around a race track
Hi Kev,Many thanks for your reply,I stripped it today and found its actually perfect ? no damage or significant wear visible, I suspect im just trying to change down to fast and not allowing it to centre before going again so to speak
Will try to change technique for cadwell and see how it goes
Thanks again for your advice

[bradders]

Neither my 583 or 620 have ever allowed more than 2 gears at a time, and often more than 1 between clutch dips especially end of a session

[skidlids]

Hi Kev,Many thanks for your reply,I stripped it today and found its actually perfect ? no damage or significant wear visible, I suspect im just trying to change down to fast and not allowing it to centre before going again so to speak
Will try to change technique for cadwell and see how it goes
Thanks again for your advice


Brian while you had it apart did you check it was all centred OK as there are two points of adjustment

[skidlids]

And to replace the gear selector its handy to have a Alternator holding tool, a 30mm Socket and a Torque Wrench capable of going up to 190nM

[Ghost]

Brian while you had it apart did you check it was all centred OK as there are two points of adjustment

Usually the cause, incorrect adjustment. Also tight linkage and splinted lever position.

[dunlop0_1]

Usually the cause, incorrect adjustment. Also tight linkage and splinted lever position.

I'd see a doctor about that Phil. :lol:

[Ghost]

I'd see a doctor about that Phil. :lol:


Bloody Blackberry and fit fangers. :D Splined lever. Lol

[batesy2]

Brian while you had it apart did you check it was all centred OK as there are two points of adjustment
No i didnt. so il whip it off again just to check,I have a Haynes,Will the method be detailed in there?
Again thanks for your help Kev.

[skidlids]

Yes Brian the Haynes manual covers it quite well, nice pic of centreing using a ruler and the use of scribed lines to check up and down movement is equal

[Spjallen]

Think I might be having a do with this too. Bugger.

[skidlids]

Think I might be having a do wit this too. Bugger.

Well worth getting the problem sorted, it certainly improved my lap times once I got it fixed

[Spjallen]

Do you have to take the clutch out too? The Haynes manual suggests that.

[skidlids]

Do you have to take the clutch out too? The Haynes manual suggests that.

Not for the Part I changed, just the left hand engine casing and the Alternator

[Spjallen]

I thought you need to remove the clutch to access the stopper arm bolt?

[Ghost]

I thought you need to remove the clutch to access the stopper arm bolt?

No not at all, What stopper arm bolt??
On the claw you will see a stamped index line you will/should see a similar line on the drum edge. When in neutral align the two marks. Then tighten the bolts properly. :D

[Spjallen]

That's it? I think I might be able to cope with that Phil. Note the word might!

[Chaz]

[QUOTE=skidlids]Yes Brian the Haynes manual covers it quite well, nice pic of centreing using a ruler and the use of scribed lines to check up and down movement Quote

I have a tool for setting that up! Makes the job very easy & more accurate

[Spjallen]

Homemade?

[SeeleyG50]

Simon. You're earlier query regarding the 'stopper arm' on the clutch side is not without foundation. All that's been said regarding setting the lever arm correctly is valid, but the 'stopper arm' can gall on its pivot, slowing its action and intermittently preventing it from doing its job. This is often overlooked in the belief that all selection problems stem from lever am adjustment. It's worth checking for smooth operation.

[Ghost]

Simon. You're earlier query regarding the 'stopper arm' on the clutch side is not without foundation. All that's been said regarding setting the lever arm correctly is valid, but the 'stopper arm' can gall on its pivot, slowing its action and intermittently preventing it from doing its job. This is often overlooked in the belief that all selection problems stem from lever am adjustment. It's worth checking for smooth operation.

Very true Andy, but there isn't anything on the clutch side of the engine to influence gear selection per se.

[SeeleyG50]

Very true Andy, but there isn't anything on the clutch side of the engine to influence gear selection per se.

You must be running a different engine to me then Phil? :D I am referring to the Gear Stopper Assy (Ducati's description), which is definitely in the clutch side in my engine. If this gets too stiff, or indeed the spring breaks or weakens, the drum can over rotate by 'beating' the positive stop on the lever arm.

[Ghost]

I'll have to discuss this with you face to face as I can't recall anything in the right hand clutch housing that affects the selector mech. Its that fkin Desmosedici you have in yours you are thinking of. :D

[dunlop0_1]

You must be running a different engine to me then Phil? :D I am referring to the Gear Stopper Assy (Ducati's description), which is definitely in the clutch side in my engine. If this gets too stiff, or indeed the spring breaks or weakens, the drum can over rotate by 'beating' the positive stop on the lever arm.

Steve's right Phil. This is the reason for the 1mm spacer on the wet to dry clutch conversion.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q289/dunlop0_1/Ducati2074820916209962099820enginecases7482.jpg

[Chaz]

Homemade?

No a genuine Ducati tool.

[Ghost]

Bugger, of all the ones I've had apart I didn't recall that cam roller. Feel dutifully arse raped now. :eek:

Thanks for the pic Neil. :D Oh and the Pikey won't be best pleased you calling him Steve either.

[SeeleyG50]

Bugger, of all the ones I've had apart I didn't recall that cam roller. Feel dutifully arse raped now. :eek:

phil. That's cos your part senile....like me.......but my arse isn't sore:lol:

Thanks for the pic Neil. :D Oh and the Pikey won't be best pleased you calling him Steve either.

I'm okay with Steve. It's my middle name. Anyway, beats what the wife calls me most of the time.

[dunlop0_1]

I'm okay with Steve. It's my middle name. Anyway, beats what the wife calls me most of the time.

Sorry Andy. ;) better than the ginger dwarf (as you say). :lol:

[Spjallen]

Flipping heck this isnt easy! Well I've checked that the line / mark thats centrally between the two claws is aligned with the drum pins ( in second gear initially then all the test of the gears) and everything seemed okay. Selections aren't 100% but ghost had advised me the gear changes are best confirmed when moving. I guess my problem must be something else.

[skidlids]

I guess my problem must be something else.

Simon What is the problem
as this is contained within my original post about my broken selector arm

[Spjallen]

I've had problems all year going up the box, esp 2 to third and third to fourth. It's got progressively worse each round. When I saw your post I thought that's exactly the same as me as I'm hitting lots of false neutrals. Had the alt cover off today but the claws look good but I still don't get 100 % correct gear changes ( when spinning the rear wheel) and I am still getting false neutrals. Claw and drum pins seem in line as per Haynes manual in all gears. If I don't spin the rear wheel changes seem good but I've lost all faith and trust in the gear selections mechanics. Not sure what to check next or maybe just change the selector arm anyway.

[SeeleyG50]

If you've set the lever assy correctly, then the problem is likely to be elsewhere. Did you check the condition/action of the stopper arm on the clutch side, as advised above? If both of these are good then the motor will need to come apart for further investigation. The gearbox, drum & selectors are pretty robust, but I have seen badly worn & bent selectors and that would account for the problems you describe. My concern would be that you say the problem is getting steadily worse and that would indicate that something is wearing.

[Ghost]

I've had problems all year going up the box, esp 2 to third and third to fourth. It's got progressively worse each round. When I saw your post I thought that's exactly the same as me as I'm hitting lots of false neutrals. Had the alt cover off today but the claws look good but I still don't get 100 % correct gear changes ( when spinning the rear wheel) and I am still getting false neutrals. Claw and drum pins seem in line as per Haynes manual in all gears. If I don't spin the rear wheel changes seem good but I've lost all faith and trust in the gear selections mechanics. Not sure what to check next or maybe just change the selector arm anyway.

Stop tickling it and be positive with that boot. :D

[dunlop0_1]

Stop tickling it and be positive with that boot. :D

As Phil say's.

Also you won't get good gear changes spinning the rear wheel because the load on the gears (which be very light) is going the wrong, way if that makes sense. The engine normally puts the load on the gears in the right direction. :D
The 996 and the 600 both do it but there's nowt wrong we'em

[SeeleyG50]

As Phil say's.

Also you won't get good gear changes spinning the rear wheel because the load on the gears (which be very light) is going the wrong, way if that makes sense. The engine normally puts the load on the gears in the right direction. :D
The 996 and the 600 both do it but there's nowt wrong we'em

Dead right Neil.

Simon, I had assumed that the problems you describe are whilst riding the thing, not just p*ssing about with it on the workbench? :rolleyes:

Get out there now. No Christmas dinner till its sorted!

Merry Christmas one & all.

[Spjallen]

Cheers guys. The problems are when riding!

[Ghost]

Cheers guys. The problems are when riding!


Mmm as I thought, cockpit trouble, or pilot error. :D :lol:

[Spjallen]

Probably!

[Spjallen]

Well here's my update. Alternator cover off to see the claw and drum better. Flywheel off when i get the holding tool. Clutch and basket off to see the stopper. I'm not 100% but I suspect the drum is under rotating. Plan is to change the gear selector forks. Thanks to all the dd gurus that have helped so far as this is quite deep engineering for me. And yes ghost, thank god I don't fix helicopters!

[Cranker V2]

I've had problems all year going up the box, esp 2 to third and third to fourth. It's got progressively worse each round. When I saw your post I thought that's exactly the same as me as I'm hitting lots of false neutrals. Had the alt cover off today but the claws look good but I still don't get 100 % correct gear changes ( when spinning the rear wheel) and I am still getting false neutrals. Claw and drum pins seem in line as per Haynes manual in all gears. If I don't spin the rear wheel changes seem good but I've lost all faith and trust in the gear selections mechanics. Not sure what to check next or maybe just change the selector arm anyway.

Stop fannying about and ride with some aggression! Get your arse in gear, the bikes fine :roll:

[mat2hew]

Stop fannying about and ride with some aggression! Get your arse in gear, the bikes fine :roll:

It's easy to say the bikes fine,,,,,,,, but what if it isn't?