View Full Version : Guess what, my 748 wont start (help please)
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 16:09
Hi all,
Hope you all had a top festive period:D
I spent most of Christmas in Florida this year so before i went away i gave the bike a good clean and put it in the garage under a sheet on the trickle charger.
When i got back i went to check on her and couldnt resist starting her up. I pulled the sheet off to be greeted by an iluminated neutral light when the ignition was off WTF:puzzled: . I turned the bike on and then off again and the light went off but now it wont start:(
When i turn on the ignition i can hear the fuel pump do its thing but when i press the starter a get a loud buzzing on the R/H side of the bike. I traced this to the little solonoid (spelling?) that leads to the starter motor. It tries to turn the starter somtimes but it cant quite do it enough to get it to fire up. I thought it must be the battery but it seems to be charged ok because the lights come on ok are are bright as usual. I jump started it first time and it also bump starts ok. I took it for a 50 mile run but when i stopped it wouldnt re-start:mad:
Does anyone have any ideas as to whats up with it? I think its ****ed of that i left it here to bugger off to somewhere a bit warmer.
Thanks in advance
Chris:)
I had a rant on another thread about what this _might_ be ... which I have suffered from twice now, on my old 916 and my recent 748.
Before I launch again ...
DONT DONT DONT keep trying to start it if it chatters on the left side - buzzing on the right means the relay isnt getting enough current to engage fully -
chattering on the left means the relay is engaging, but the starter is only getting enough current to take up its slack, and that will hammer the sprag clutch and kernacker it pretty quickly, requiring left side surgery !
Anyway - the poxy culprits of lots of 'is this battery duff ?' questions are the little right-angle brackets on the battery terminal - they have a threaded bolty-bit (technical term) splined into the sheet, which can slip if you tighten it - and then you've got a not-quite connected terminal, which drops enough volts to stop the starter :saint: and often confuse a 'smart' charger.
It goes without saying that you've checked the bolts on the top of the battery for tightnes of course :D
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 16:47
Originally posted by weeksy
Battery mate, simple as that..... no discussion no debate.... as to what 'caused' it, that's open to debate, but your battery simply doesn't have the charge to turn it over.
2 choices.
Jump leads
Battery charger.
Funnily i started mine yesterday, first time in 10 weeks. new fuel in there and 1st push of the button it started.
don't ya just love Jap machinery ;)
I jump started it and took it for a 50mile + ride. Would that not be enough for the bike to recharge it or could it just be fecked?
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 16:56
Originally posted by phil_h
I had a rant on another thread about what this _might_ be ... which I have suffered from twice now, on my old 916 and my recent 748.
Before I launch again ...
DONT DONT DONT keep trying to start it if it chatters on the left side - buzzing on the right means the relay isnt getting enough current to engage fully -
chattering on the left means the relay is engaging, but the starter is only getting enough current to take up its slack, and that will hammer the sprag clutch and kernacker it pretty quickly, requiring left side surgery !
Anyway - the poxy culprits of lots of 'is this battery duff ?' questions are the little right-angle brackets on the battery terminal - they have a threaded bolty-bit (technical term) splined into the sheet, which can slip if you tighten it - and then you've got a not-quite connected terminal, which drops enough volts to stop the starter :saint: and often confuse a 'smart' charger.
It goes without saying that you've checked the bolts on the top of the battery for tightnes of course :D
Dont worry the noise is defantly on the left:lol:
Only kiddin its the right so that means
"buzzing on the right means the relay isnt getting enough current to engage fully - "
I have checked the battery terminals and they seem fine so i feel at a bit of a loss. It is giving out 12V though so how could it be the Battery? Also i have bump started it and ridden it so it it was low would the bike not recharge it?
There's a small white connector plugged into the back of the solenoid. Check this is pushed in fully, even give it a wiggle. It's a common problem. If the connections aren't good, the supply voltage to the solenoid coil is either none existant or not enough to pull it in hard enough to get the starter supply high enough.
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 17:10
Originally posted by nelly
There's a small white connector plugged into the back of the solenoid. Check this is pushed in fully, even give it a wiggle. It's a common problem. If the connections aren't good, the supply voltage to the solenoid coil is either none existant or not enough to pull it in hard enough to get the starter supply high enough.
Thanks for the reply Nelly! I read your post on another thread and took it all apart, cleaned it and put it back together again but all it did was lower my spirits even more when it didnt start again.
Anymore ideas?
how old is it and what model.
from what i have heard and experienced first hand once the battery gets to a certain point its buggered!!
i had the same trouble and although i could charge the battery it wouldn't hold it for long etc. I got a new battery and its been fine ever since. I have alarm/immob on and it still starts after not being run for over 3 months.
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 18:21
Its a 748s 2002 if that helps:puzzled:
2002 bad year for batteries then...
I replaced the one on the Bostrom about 6 months ago, and Lily did hers before that too, both 2002 bikes, and the 996 battery last 5 years
mine is an 02 748r and it did the same.
for the price its worth getting a new battery and then get yourself an optimate if you are not gonna be on it for a while.
make sure you scuff up the terminals on battery and connecters so you get a good connection.
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 18:31
Originally posted by Lily
mine is an 02 748r and it did the same.
for the price its worth getting a new battery and then get yourself an optimate if you are not gonna be on it for a while.
It was on an optimate thing though
Originally posted by chris99
Originally posted by Lily
mine is an 02 748r and it did the same.
for the price its worth getting a new battery and then get yourself an optimate if you are not gonna be on it for a while.
It was on an optimate thing though
So were ours and they still went caput within 2 years
Originally posted by chris99
Hi all,
Hope you all had a top festive period:D
When i got back i went to check on her and couldnt resist starting her up. I pulled the sheet off to be greeted by an iluminated neutral light when the ignition was off WTF:puzzled: . I
Thanks in advance
Chris:)
Chris it could be a back feed through the Reg rec/ alternator windings !simple to check! isolate the alternator by unpluging and then see if the neutral light goes out when ignition off!
Put a multi-meter across the terminals of the battery,reading the battery voltage.Then press the starter button.The voltage should only drop to about 9v.If it buggers off down to lower than that,i would change the battery.If it stays at battery voltage,then the solenoid is not fully closing OR there is a dodgy connection between battery,solenoid and starter.
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 18:44
The light seems to be behaving itself at the moment though
GsxrAge
10-Jan-2005, 18:44
Your getting 12v what when it's running?
When it's running it should charge over 12.5v as it needs to get over resistance in the batt.
But ti does sound like either your batt has died (most prob)
or the buzzing realy is faulty. Had same noise once on my 916 but bump started it in 3rd and it never happened again.
Originally posted by AGE996
Your getting 12v what when it's running?
When it's running it should charge over 12.5v as it needs to get over resistance in the batt.
Age996 i would have thought at least 13.6 v ;)
13.6 to 14.2 is a correct charging voltage.
moto748
10-Jan-2005, 19:59
I wouldn't be in a hurry to sling a battery away before getting a meter on it and checking the voltage readings.
BTW the 13.6-14.2V referred to above is with the engine running at a decent lick, not at idle. The 12.5V is more like what you should see with the bikre idling.
Those white connectors to the solenoid are often the culprit. Orthe solenoid itself. If you clean up the connector, you can bridge across the two big HT terminals with a screwdriver or summat. If that starts the bike, then the solenoid needs replacing. They're cheaper than batteries.
All that's not to say that the battery isn't the most likely cause, though.
Or the rectifier....:roll:
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 19:59
Originally posted by keefer
sprag clutch
Thats not sounding good!
I REALLY hope/think it may be the battery because it started first time on the button with jump leads! I dont understand why it hadnt sorted itself after a ride though. Is it as said above that once its gone a bit it wont come back?
its hard too tell from what you say in your post.
if you have meter tested the batt while running and its putting 14 - 15v back in then its not the alternator.
check the bat after it has been left for a while or even over night to see what voltage is in it. i.e. is it retaining its charge.
and finally if all the above check out, it sounded to me that what you described as a whirring. would be the starter clutch spinning without engaging.
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 20:14
Originally posted by keefer
its hard too tell from what you say in your post.
, it sounded to me that what you described as a whirring. would be the starter clutch spinning without engaging.
Its more like a buzz. If i put my hand on the componant i can feel it vibrating ( little round thing in front of the battery between it and the starter motor! Has a white sticker on it with a jap brand Hitachi??? or summit)
try bypassing it then to see if it is the starter relay.
long handled screw driver across the terminals to bridge it.
watch it though it can make you jump
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 20:34
Originally posted by keefer
try bypassing it then to see if it is the starter relay.
long handled screw driver across the terminals to bridge it.
watch it though it can make you jump
Is that connect the 2 bic connections or the pins in the little white connector?
hold on ill take a pic then post it
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 20:38
fanks matey i cant wait:D:D:D:D:D
ok its a poor pic but the round thing to the right of the bat is the starter relay. on the back of it there are two large connectors 8-10mm nuts and the bottom wire leads to the starter.
ignore the small connectors you mentioned that's what sends it the signal to get busy from the starter button.
Bridge the two large connectors. But again be careful it will spin up as soon as you cross them with the screw driver. if it turns over moor than it has been then bobs your uncle
[Edited on 10-1-2005 by keefer]
GsxrAge
10-Jan-2005, 20:47
12.5v t idle but not over 14.5 if it is charging over 14.5 it will ruinthe batt.
But ccould it be you trickle charger is faulty and has to higher output ????
would still say it's the batt s if it's not charging then with the electric fuel pump and injection system all needing power you would not have got 50miles :biaggi:
But you could always buy a petrol slave starter motor :lol:
[Edited on 10-1-2005 by AGE996]
With respect, i wouldnt go sticking a screwdriver anywhere in it!
In fact im sorry but, it infuriates me to read some of the advise given.
I know we all want to help, but, please............. My advise would be to only take the advise of our well known learned friends, or better still, take it somewhere that knows what they are doing. :eureka:
chris99
10-Jan-2005, 20:51
Wow. Well thanks for all the replies guys. Its really good to know that if/when something goes wrong and you feel lost that there are loads of people out there willing to help. I will take another look at the bike soon and see if your all right. Thanks again
Chris:D
GsxrAge
10-Jan-2005, 20:53
Originally posted by andyb
With respect, i wouldnt go sticking a screwdriver anywhere in it!
In fact im sorry but, it infuriates me to read some of the advise given.
I know we all want to help, but, please............. My advise would be to only take the advise of our well known learned friends, or better still, take it somewhere that knows what they are doing. :eureka:
Some people only know how to fix it with a hammer:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::bouncy::bounc y::bouncy:
It is true a little knowledge is DANGEROUS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smug:
criss99 good on ya for having a go.
there are lots of peeps who no jack **** about f..ck all around.
by all means take it too a garage im sure they will set you straight.
but ladies and gents if your willing to ask questions and look for possible solutions. Then you should be able to decide if you want to take on that advice.
Go back to the bat maybe tomorrow and see what voltage is in it, as said much earlier. Take your time and narrow down the possibilities. Good luck
im off to change me tyres with a spanner. O YES
[
im off to change me tyres with a spanner. O YES
no spoons ? :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I'm not saying dont ask for advise. I'm saying a lot of the "advice" given is poor and misleading, and if your are asking for advise then you will obviously not be able to recognise the wheat from the chaff.
Maybe we should have a non binding qualified "How to" section, as a lot of these type of problems are quite common, and crop up regularly.
I would agree some way with what you say.
but I wouldn't say allot of the advice that is given is poor. I think it just comes from personal experience.
people have had things happen to them and want to be able to help out others without them having to go through the head banging frustration they did themselves.
Although this may in some cases present more probs than solutions. Take this thread for example.
people like to get a result quickly. and perhaps start to cut a few corners to get there.
I think everyone should be aware that any advise given in this club is just that.
if anyone wants a definitive answer then just look under all of Shazaam's posts.
[Edited on 10-1-2005 by keefer]
Originally posted by andyb
I'm not saying dont ask for advise. I'm saying a lot of the "advice" given is poor and misleading, and if your are asking for advise then you will obviously not be able to recognise the wheat from the chaff.
Maybe we should have a non binding qualified "How to" section, as a lot of these type of problems are quite common, and crop up regularly.
I Think nelly should Run a DSC on line BIKE surgery!!!!!
if you have ever seen someone who has done a DIY repair in their Garage at Home
when the bike set fire and he did not get out!
Not very nice !!
I'm not gonna knock the idea of a screwdriver across the solenoid terminals as we have all done it at some point!
but this guy i am on about actually put a spaner across , it stuck to the terminals went bright red , then ignighted the petrol vapours from the tank !!! need i go on?
it's just that the advise was given free and in good faith ! but in the wrong hands :(
ps i'm not knocking anyone it's just my opinion..........mav
leave it to the experts
"and perhaps start to cut a few corners to get there"
You mean Guess!
Originally posted by madmav
Originally posted by andyb
I'm not saying dont ask for advise. I'm saying a lot of the "advice" given is poor and misleading, and if your are asking for advise then you will obviously not be able to recognise the wheat from the chaff.
Maybe we should have a non binding qualified "How to" section, as a lot of these type of problems are quite common, and crop up regularly.
I Think nelly should Run a DSC on line BIKE surgery!!!!!
if you have ever seen someone who has done a DIY repair in their Garage at Home
when the bike set fire and he did not get out!
Not very nice !!
I'm not gonna knock the idea of a screwdriver across the solenoid terminals as we have all done it at some point!
but this guy i am on about actually put a spaner across , it stuck to the terminals went bright red , then ignighted the petrol vapours from the tank !!! need i go on?
it's just that the advise was given free and in good faith ! but in the wrong hands :(
ps i'm not knocking anyone it's just my opinion..........mav
leave it to the experts
no your right marv as soon as I said it I thought
GOD I hope he doesn't use a piece of wire. cuz it wont ever stop :(
Keefer !! i'm not knocking you mate as i can see you were only trying to help.
and it's great to see the members helping !!
but in truth a little knowledge is dangerous , as you can see from his post he is not competant.
me , nelly Jhp and the rest of the traders on here all have public liabilty insurance wich covers our arse !!
but even we have to be carfull what we say and how we put things on here ! when it comes down to it (commercialy))
hope you havn't taken offence KEEFER!! regards mav ;)
Could be a nice little warranty or insurance job though..if it frustrates you that much?:devil:
gasmanrus
10-Jan-2005, 22:26
chris
haynes manuals have given me the confidence to do loads on my bike
including replacing a mashed valve and busted valve closer
their worth their wieght in carbonfibre mate:D
chris99
11-Jan-2005, 11:43
Originally posted by madmav
Keefer !!
but in truth a little knowledge is dangerous , as you can see from his post he is not competant.
Ouch mate that hurts:mad:
I pride hyself on being the sort of person who picks things up and is willing to give it a go. I may not be as skilled as some of you but if i never try then i never will be will i? I understand some of you make a living out of people who cant / cant be bothered to do it for themselves but all i want to do is learn for myself.
Im 22 and already have more skills then most people i know. Before Xmas i fitted a kitchen for my girlfriend having never tried before. I also changed a shagged CV joint on her car without even having a manual or even knowing what a cv joint was.
I understand that a Ducati is a funny machine with lots of stupid things that can go wrong on it so if i can sort some of the minor stuff myself then it means i get to spend more time actually riding it:D:D:D (which is why i got the dam thing in the first place)
IMO its better for me to ask a stupid question on here then make a stupid mistake and wish i had asked.
rockhopper
11-Jan-2005, 13:27
I've welded a spanner to the car battery terminals a number of times!
[[Ouch mate that hurts
I pride hyself on being the sort of person who picks things up and is willing to give it a go. I may not be as skilled as some of you but if i never try then i never will be will i? I understand some of you make a living out of people who cant / cant be bothered to do it for themselves but all i want to do is learn for myself.
Im 22 and already have more skills then most people i know. Before Xmas i fitted a kitchen for my girlfriend having never tried before. I also changed a shagged CV joint on her car without even having a manual or even knowing what a cv joint was.
I understand that a Ducati is a funny machine with lots of stupid things that can go wrong on it so if i can sort some of the minor stuff myself then it means i get to spend more time actually riding it (which is why i got the dam thing in the first place)
IMO its better for me to ask a stupid question on here then make a stupid mistake and wish i had asked.]]
If you never try, you never learn. But sometimes it is an expensive experience:D:D. Get a good set of manuals and tools and give it a go
This is getting a fun thread ! :D
Right - chris99 - my judgement as a qualified electronics engineer is that you are obviously interested enough in fixing something like this yourself to go and buy yourself a nice little multimeter.
What that will give you is hard information ... (note that lots of guys have been quoting voltages) and then you can judge whether what you are seeing makes sense from the NUMBERS.
Just remember what I said about poor connections - they can be anywhere a bolt is or a connector is or a crimp ... and they can all add up in a small way to stop something working how you expect.
Lotsa 'big' problems are caused by lotsa small problems added together, and you really really dont want to pay the guys in garages to find a dodgy crimped connection !:D
When you have a multimeter you can also compare voltages with something that IS working ok - like a mates bike or your car !
(If you were closer I'd come over and put you out of your misery !)
</rant>
chris99
14-Jan-2005, 12:53
Well i did the screw driver thing and it started to turn over a bit but the battery is definatley duff. I called Ducati in Leeds who quoted £90 for a ducati battery. £60 for a gel one (YT12B-4) or £50 for a liquid one (YB16AL-A2). I assume i can get these cheaper from other bike shops or even halfrauds?? Do i just look for the same numbers as above or are they different for different makes?
I think the gel option sounds the best so i dont have to check acid levels on that.
Thanks again for all help given! You are all being very patient with me
Cheers
Chris:D
Hi, Have you checked the battery with a multimeter?
This is the only way to truly know the state of the battery. Just because the engine turns over slowly or not at all, doesnt mean the battery is u/s.
Read Phil_h's and Nelly's responses again.
TopiToo
14-Jan-2005, 15:42
Hello
Chris99
maybe of some help
http://www.mandp.co.uk/list.aspx?search=on&tier1=Spares&tier2=Batteries&tier3=Yuasa
I am hoping to go to the Alley Pally I don't mind looking there for you, not sure how to get it to Hull though.
regards
TopiToo
[Edited on 15-07-1968 by TopiToo]
chris99
14-Jan-2005, 15:46
Nice one cheers matey
sounds like your not having much luck with that bike of yours mate
i havent got a clue how to fix your bike but from what ive read i would nt bother using the optimate again, i have 1 on the garage wall but im waiitng for my brother to run the electric to it. my p plate 748 starts first time every time so far and im not trusting it with the optimate now
the other thing ive read is not to trust some of the optimates from ebay as theyre waht oxford products refused under quality control issues
hope you get it sorted out soon
dave
chris99
18-Jan-2005, 11:33
Originally posted by deej
sounds like your not having much luck with that bike of yours mate
dave
Yeah so far it has only really cost me money for not that much in return. I never had a single problem with the R6:(
Thanks to Jasper my 748 is alive and kicking again! He was very kind to me and gave me his number so he could talk me through the problems. The battery was indeed duff so i got a replacement and after i had charged it the bike started first time on the buton:D:D:D
I then went on a cracking ride out with a load of people from another website im a member of (www.hullbikers.com) It was a bit slippery but really cool to be out again. The bit was a real state after but its looking good again now. I am the only Ducati owner on the site so far so if any of you are in this area please have a look.
Thanks again for all the help given by everyone since i started this thread. I hope i wont have to ask anymore stupid "why wont it start?" questions again soon!!
Roll on summer
Chris
:D:cool:
Glad it's all up and running.Chris,you could always join the Yorkshire ride outs.Drop Ray an E-mail and get yourself put on the mailing list.
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