oil .. filter ...oil & filter change

[NateR]

Guys

My 748R has, and will continue to be, garaged for the winter. I was thinking that in spring it might be prudent to freshen the sump up a little.

How many of you do your own intermediate oil & filter changes and how frequently?

Cheers
N

[keefer]

if its sat in the garage over winter I drain it of.

[ath748]

I change my oil and filter every 3000 miles.

[ducv2]

After every track day, and every 1000 miles on the road

[madmav]

every 2000mls

[NateR]

..and do you use the Shell oil as per the factory?

[Old Yella]

No
I use 15 50 weight as recommended by Nelly.

Thanks for reminding me, i need to get some ordered from him.

I will be running it in the 998 and 748 this year and think every 2 trackdays for the 748 and every 1500 miles for the 998 on the road.

[ducv2]

Castrol 5W/60

[Edited on 16-1-2005 by ducv2]

[misterpink]

every 3000mls new fully synth silkolene, every 6000 oil and filter

[keith_mann1959]

Motul 300v every 1500 miles, its a proper synthetic.

A 60 weight oil does not sound like a good idea, thicker is not better neccesarily.

[antonye]

I use Shell Advance 15w50 - very hard to get hold of from their garages but very handy if you have inside contacts who get it at cost price :D

[keefer]

15-50 or even 20-50 is the only weight oil to use in a ducati
thicker is better when it comes to a ducati.
I would guess that a 10 or even 5- 60 will result in head damage.
but that's just my and quite a few others opinion

[ducv2]

Tried Ducati reccomended oils, which resulted in 12 scrap rockers. Possibly not caused by the degredation of the oil, but who knows. I have no doubt someone will be along to correct me, but the first number in an oil spec is the viscosity when cold, the second one when hot. So my theory is the oil flows better when cold (gets into the heads better), and resists extreme pressure better when hot, i.e. between rocker arms and cams. Over to you Shazaam.

[keefer]

have a read of this page off sigma.
scroll down a bit and you will see the conversation turn to oil.
enjoy.
ps lots of good info on there
http://www.sigmaperformance.com/rockers.html

[baylissboy]

I change oil & filter every 1,000 miles using 15/50 mobil oil in both my bikes,never had any problems with flaking rockers or any other mechanical issues!:bouncy:

[Edited on 17-1-2005 by baylissboy]

[ath748]

15w50 Fuchs fully synth from these boys:
http://www.bikesport-uk.com/

Click on Silkolene and you can order online. But you can get the DSC discount on the Shell stuff now from the DSC Home Page. Can't remember how much though.

Ade.

[ali]

Semi-synth (Shell Advance) every 3000 miles for my 900SL. I've been warned off fully-synth (overkill for a 2v) and lightweight oils by almost every mechanic I've spoken to, but I might start using Shell Advance Ultra after reading Neil's article above.

[Shazaam!]

The reason for multi-grade oils is to allow you to turn your engine over on cold days. Ducati engines take a relatively long time before the oil reaches the rocker arms, so it would seem that an oil with a lower winter viscosity would be an advantage, certainly on a cold day start. Once the engine is up to temperature, the hot viscosity rating essentially establishes oil pressure - so there’s no reason to go too high on this part of the rating.

An oil sold as 5W-60 is no thicker than straight 5 weight oil under below freezing conditions and it is no thinner than straight 60 weight oil at 212°F.
The way you make a 5W-60 oil is to start out with a 5 weight oil
and then adding substances called Viscosity Index Improvers (VIIs). Without VIIs, the oil would thin out too much at normal operating temperatures.

This presents two problems.

First, VIIs are not lubricants, so the more of them that you add, the less oil you have to lubricate engine parts.

Second, VIIs are long polymer chain molecules that are broken into smaller pieces by the transmission gears in a motorcycle. This makes the oil less viscous at high temperatures. Synthetic oils typically have very few VIIs, so these oils are far less subject to viscosity breakdown and a result, synthetics are far more stable in a motorcycle engine.

A frequent marketing claim made for motorcycle-specific oils is that they retain their viscosity longer than automotive oils when used in a motorcycle. That is, motorcycle-specific oils contain large amounts of expensive, shear-stable polymers that better resist the punishment put on the oil by the motorcycle's transmission, thus retaining their viscosity longer and better than automotive oils would under the same conditions.

Nevertheless, when tested by MCN, the best-performing oil of the group tested was Mobil 1 automotive oil. Based on their test results, here's their advice:

1. Use a synthetic oil. The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application. There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific synthetics out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

2. Change your oil more frequently, and more often than 3,000 mile intervals that is normal for cars. Motorcycles are somewhat harder on an oil's viscosity retention properties than cars. (The gears in the transmission are the significant factor in cutting the VIIs molecules into shorter pieces that are less viscous.)

A 5W-60 oil will have a lot of Viscosity Index Improvers added to 5W oil, so will experience a larger loss of viscosity over time than say, a 15W-50. So if you use an oil with a lower winter weight rating you’ll need to change it more frequently

I use the Mobil 1 automobile-specific in the 15W-50 viscosity only. Thinner viscosity versions of Mobil 1 make them inappropriate for both wet and dry clutch applications in my opinion.

http://ducatisportingclub.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=6566#pid53390

[ali]

Talking of all things oily, can anyone recommend a simple way of flushing old oil out of my 600ss engine??

The oil that's in it has obviously been there for several decades, and I really don't want to pour lots of lovely clean oil in if it's going to mix with the sludge that's in there.....

Cheers,

ali

[rockhopper]

I understand the theory behind motorcycle engines being harder on oil that cars becasue of the gear box but what about the BL A series engine as used in the Mini which has the gearbox under the engine and they both share the same oil? They never specified any fancy oil for it and the service interval was quite long.

[NateR]

Some very interesting arguments and certainly food for thought for all of us.

I wonder if Nelly might give us his opinion from an everyday servicing perspective?

[ducv2]

Cheers Shazaam:):)

[monstermob 998]

while we talking oil- Ali raises a good point that i was thinking of at the weekend whilst changing the oil and filter in my car(audi) i always change oil and filter at every 3000 miles using an engine flush- i change oil frequently becuase of dohc 16v and hydraulic lifters etc- although the ducati engine (600SS)is a bit (dare i say it) a bit more basic- would an engine flush be advisable when i change the oil and filters on the bike?- i intend to change oil and filter at 1500 miles

[rockhopper]

Blimey, i change the oil in the car roughly every 15,000 miles and its cleanish when it comes out. Should i be changing it more often then? The car has done 65,000 miles. Oh and its also a double ohc 16 valve motor with hydraulic tappets.

[Edited on 17-1-2005 by rockhopper]

[keefer]

3000 is overkill
6000 or 6 months for a car

[phil_h]

1) If you have an engine that has been standing and you want to 'flush' it before using a good oil ... just buy a cheap unbranded oil, and fill with that, run the engine at tickover until it is properly hot, and then change the oil for a good brand.
To be sure, you should change the filter too, if you dont know how long its been in there.
And definitely check the screen filter - because (as we all know) the cartridge-filtered-oil only goes to the crank and the screen is the only filter for the oil that goes to the heads (strange but true !)
2) If you are thinking of changing your oil 'for the winter' - remember that used oil will always have an acid build up, so the best time to change it is before or during the lay up, not before starting riding again.

(Oh, and I use any old branded semi in the due, and any old branded synth in the ottovalvole, according to what is a good price when I'm buying. It's changing it regularly that makes the difference ! I have between 6 and 8 bikes on the road at any one time !)

[keith_mann1959]

An oils high temp rating (40,50 or 60 ) does not determine its ability to endure stress at critical points like the valve gear.
The designers of engines take into consideration the intended oil and the tolerances they require. using a thicker oil is not a good idea.

[Ray]

The great oil debate again. Use whatever you are happy with and change it as often as you like.
It is quite rare for ****e oil to be the root cause of engine failure. It is far more likely to be poor oil supply/feed to the component, oil too hot, oil too cold, surge, flaws in the design of the engine, not changed often enough, etc, etc.

Ray.

[keith_mann1959]

Fantastic piece of advice !!!

[keefer]

Originally posted by Ray
change it as often as you like.

not changed often enough, etc, etc.

Ray.

Nice Advice :P

[rcgbob44]

Oil and filters are cheap so I change mine at 1000 miles, no flushing necessary.

[moto748]

Wow! I feel like a real slob cos I only change mine every 6000m, with the occasional 3000m intermediate. In fact I was thinking about changing it at the weekend (reckon I'm around the 3000m mark). But I do use the Motul 15/50 fully synth mentioned by other posters.

I suppose I do more miles than many of youse guys; if I changed the oil as frequently as some of you, I'd be doing it every month! Literally.
Someone said; oil's cheap. Well fully synth plus a filter is say 40 quid. Like I said, if I changed it every month, that's 500 notes a year. Hardly negligible.

For all that, my engine's in good nick, and I've only had to replace one rocker.

[Walenut]

If 95% of engine wear takes place at start up, particularly with a Ducati 4 valve that has to wait up to 90 seconds to get the oil to the rocker assembly wouldn’t it be prudent to use an oil with a lower viscosity to ensure that the thinner oil gets there as quick as possible?

Is there really that much difference between a 10/40 fully synthetic and a 15-20/50?
Especially when you look at the stats below:

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=uk-en&FC2=/uk-en/html/iwgen/shell_for_motorists/motorcycles/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/global/shell_for_motorists/motorcycles/advance/getting_more/clean_4t_ga_2101.html

[keefer]

I put it all down to stickability.
the thicker oil will not run down from the head so quickly thus leaving a nice coat already up there when you get going.

[Walenut]

Yes but how do we know that the thicker oils ability to stick is any better than a top quality lower grade synthetic especially compared to the fact that the lower grade will be there lubricating before the higher grade.

[keefer]

the ability of the oil to get to the head is nothing to do with its consistency its down to the pump.
and its been something that's been found on head inspection.
people who take engines apart will say that when they take a engine apart that has used a good quality thicker oil, it will still be evident on engine parts in the head.
i.e. its still stuck up there.
at the end of the day anyone can use what they want.
but im going with the thick brigade :roll:

[Walenut]

Got to disagree with that mate the thicker the oil the harder the pump is going to have to work to get it up there and the more frictional resistance will be created.

I once had to drain some virtually new 20/50 from a bike and left it in an open pan over night in the shed in winter, when I went back to it next morning it was like treacle if that had been in your bike I think it would have taken even longer than 90 seconds to get up there.

You could possibly prove this, a post I have recently read was about how hard it is to start an SPS when cold in winter, try a lower grade oil and I bet it starts easier.

[TP]

Originally posted by S.P
Got to disagree with that mate the thicker the oil the harder the pump is going to have to work to get it up there and the more frictional resistance will be created.

That may be true S.P but I think the point Keefer is trying to make is that it will have less of a need to rush up there because the rockers etc will have a coating of 'treacle' already.

I'd recommend you read Neil Spalding's article that Keefer posted earlier here (http://www.sigmaperformance.com/rockers.html) for some good information. Also, read through Shazaams stuff. Both of these guys are quality and recommend 15W/50.

So does Nelly, and I would venture to say that most of the club members that have been around for a while would run 15W/50 and for a good reason.

If you're still in doubt give Neil Spalding a call and he'll happily chat to you about it. His contact details are on his website or I can u2u you his mobile number.

Happy reading :D

Oh and one last point as has been said, at the end of the day you can run what you want and change it as often as you like. Everyone is entitled to their own view so fill your boots.

[Walenut]

I'm actually running rock oil, but I think that the merits of a lower grade are worth exploring, the trouble with the treacle is that most of it will have run off back to the sump whilst the bike is hot.

I'd be interested to try the Shell 15/50 but it’s impossible to get hold of.

Anyone had experience of Mobile 1 leaving a sludgy type substance in the engine when the engine is stripped down? And why does it get dirty looking so quick?

[Shazaam!]

Recommended reading ...

http://www.dezmo.com/gordononoil.html

[Walenut]

That’s a very good article and I shall tuck it away for further reference, a couple of points that it makes are very interesting. Could we be looking in the wrong direction for cam wear, could this be a result of impurities getting into the oil due to a poor air filter set up? This would defiantly explain (according to the article) why we should be using thicker oil, but why doesn’t wear show up to the same extent any where else? The article also raises the point that more viscose oil will offer greater pressure between two surfaces and thus, I think, offer better protection, but I also understand that there is a point at which that protection is lost, the hydrodynamic wedge collapses. So it’s a balance between the two so I suppose that takes us back to the start and end of the article:
“Here's the bottom line when it comes to motor oils: you really cant go wrong by following the recommendations given in your owner's manual. Your motorcycle's maker has dyno-tested its engine with a crankcase full of the specified oil, or one with the same American Petroleum Institute (API) rating. You can be sure that particular oil will do the job” and “Keep in mind that your motorcycle was extensively tested with its cavities full of the lubricants specified by its maker. Motorcycle manufacturers dont test their models on oil specially compounded to keep engines, clutches, and transmissions happy, they instead do the sensible thing and design hardware compatible with the oils they know you'll be able to find. Its the smart thing to do, and it works right up to the point where you ignore their advice”

Which is fine for a standard bike but my handbook states 15w50 Shell Advace Ultra 4 and its imposible to get hold of ??????????

[ducv2]

Workshop manual gives a variety of oil viscosities for different ambient operating temperatures, so maybe everyone is right :devil::devil::devil:

[Walenut]

Could be, or perhaps it’s just poorly adjusted valves and a bad batch of rockers?

[keith_mann1959]

Valve gear is the harshest environment in the engine for oil, problems with marginal lubrication will show up first here.

There seems to be an assumption that thicker oil (50)offers better protection than 40.

A mineral oil of 40 or 50 weight will have a film strength of about 5/600 PSI.

A proper synthetic either 40 or 50 will have a film strength of approx 3000 psi and better "cling" which is good for rarely used bikes.

A good synthetic will have much better flow at very cold temperatures.

By the by, just heard from John Hackets that my bike (748)did not need any rockers at its 2 year service.
It runs on Motul 300 V @1500 mile changes or Amsoil @3000 miles changes. These are both ester based oils with a 3000 psi film strength!

[Walenut]

Just found this

http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm

[Walenut]

I’m still looking at oils, very sad I know but I’m stuck in the house baby sitting!

After reading a lot of the information on the board especially the information put up by Shazam I found a couple of other articles, and particularly the article written by MCN (Motorcycle Consumer News) and the one below.

I would say that I have now come to the same conclusion that a motorcycle specific oil in a Ducati is not needed because mainly we don’t have to worry about wet clutch slippage, but motorcycle oils have a harder time because of lubricating the gear box don’t they? Well they probably do but most of the people on here are talking about 3000 mile oil and filter changes or less, so if we are all using a good quality fully synthetic I would think that non of use have to worry about that either.

So as far as I’m concerned that only leaves one issue for a Ducati and that is the one about oil starvation on start up to the rockers and the debate about viscosities, as all other issues are covered in the articles below. (It was particularly interesting to read why some motorcycle oils are priced higher!) but I digress, so after reading the specifics and claims from various manufactures I came to the Esso site and read up on the new Mobil 1 Super Syn ™ and found out an interesting claim that there 15w/50 actually flow similarly to a 5W/30 at start up in cold temperatures, so is this the answer to our problems a 15W/50 that will flow well when cold? This oil was designed for American drag racing that required maximum protection for short periods from start up. Worth a read, I think personally it sounds ideal for a Ducati and I’ll give it a go if it is obtainable.

http://www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

http://www.xs11.com/stories/mcnoil94.htm

http://www.imperialoil.com/Canada-English/Products/Lubricants/PS_L_SupersynStory.asp

[Walenut]

Did I say 3000 mile oil changes?

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html#metals

:puzzled:

[Walenut]

Well it is obtainable £36 from Halfords which makes it £4 cheaper than the 10W/40 Shell Advanced from Ducati dealers and about the same price as Rockoil 15W/50 specifically for motorcycles.

Right found an oil I think I’m happy with, Tires then!

[NateR]

.. and when you have the tyres figured SP let me know too :)