Regaining confidence - HELP! [Archive] - Ducati Sporting Club UK

JPM

17-Mar-2005, 22:16

Well as you lot know I lobbed the R, or should I say the R lobbed me down the road on Sunday, and for the life of me I just cannot figure out why, cold tyres? Salt?debris on the road? something on the tyre... you get the picture.

Anyway since that moment Lily has been running up and down the country gathering as many bits that need replacing and we have both been spending the nights trying to get the thing as good as possible for Oulton at the weekend.

Now firstly I have hardly done any miles on the bike, so just trying to get a feel for it, and taking it very steady, plus I've gone for the race shift now, so loads of new variables to take in, but then bang the off happened.

Tonight I finished work early so I'd still have some daylight left, and we both went for a spin... even before I'd got on the bike I was nervous, and riding showed how much confidence I have lost, I was scared to turn and tip the bike into the corners because I was half expecting the back end to come round again, it also felt really weird like the back end felt really loose, I had to pull over anc check I didn't have a flat!

Even on the straights I wouldn't open her up because I have it in the back of my mind something is wrong.

I've come off loads of times over the years, mostly on track days (Sportsbikes) or racing (Supermoto's) and that has never bothered me because I know in my head I am pushing and going as fast as I feel I can.

But coming off on the road only 500 yds from my door at just over 30mph is a real shocker.

How do I go about getting this confidence back? I'm usually pretty confident on a bike (not trying to sound boastful), and what is quite daunting for me right now is having a trackday this weekend on a bike I don't know, and already have the scars etc from the off...

Anyone got any ideas, it's obviously all in my head, help! :puzzled:

MaccLad

17-Mar-2005, 22:18

Tyres Fred, trust me. If not how much do you want for your trackday place? :D

Dibble

17-Mar-2005, 22:19

get the suspension set up..... front n rear sag, rebound, damping etc .. get someone that knows their stuff ..... it'll make a huuuuge difference in your head knowing the bike has been set up for YOU ...

[Edited on 17-3-2005 by DIBBLE]

17-Mar-2005, 22:28

Glad to hear you're getting back on the road so soon. I had the same situation a couple years ago in a low speed low-side in town. Made me very nervous for quite a while after which made no sense because it was nothing to do with my riding, or cornering, or wet roads, it was just someone pulling across in front of me.

I have just been reading A Twist Of The Wrist 2 by Keith Code, and he goes on a lot about Survival Reactions (SR). There are lots or SRs that affec how you ride, and mostly they are not healthy. Like the "deer in the headlights" - freezing when running would be more approriate! In your case, you KNOW that you have probably the finest handling/performing bikes on the planet, but your instincts now tell you to "not lean", lay "off the throttle" etc all of which are counter-productive to stability and good handling. Most likely you are doing waht I did for a while after the spill which is tensing up and gripping the bars. You KNOW that is wrong, but you are probably doing it.

Not sure if that is any help at all ... bottom line is, fight against the SRs and ride it like you know it should be. The reason you came off is a mystery but it has nothing to do with your ability to ride or the bike's handling. Much more likely to be poor road surface.

Henry

Lily

17-Mar-2005, 22:29

You need to think positive. I know its easy for me to say and I have! Remember all the stuff you told me after my off and put it into practice.

You were fine tonight and the bike was fine as well, just get out there on saturday and everything will be ok especially in a controlled environment that you know well :)

adam

17-Mar-2005, 22:31

jp, five years ago i had a bog standard 748, I had the suspension set up by a guy that worked at baines racing. I could go round the long right hander at Snetterton, no hanging off and my knee would be scraping the tarmac. Now, i sold that bike and got a 748R, with ohlins. Bog standard factory settings for front and rear shocks, even hanging off i occasionally got my knee down. I always thought the front was going to wash out, never felt confident with it. Dibble said it Have your bike set up by the experts, makes all the difference. I wish i had the 748R set up.
Confidence will return.

keefer

17-Mar-2005, 22:35

truly gutted for you mate. nothing worse than lobbing all that well fettled machinery down the road.
you will come to your own conclusion about why you came off eventually. but I recon cold tyres and tarmac must of played a part.
I too have had plenty of offs over the years and they have all been during the winter so I don't bother any more. summers round the corner and it wont take long for you to bounce back. all the best at the track day

Chaz

17-Mar-2005, 22:38

If think you have something wrong with your bike get someone to ride it preferably someone who knows what it should feel like if its ok you just have to get you head around it. worked for me.

Chass.

psychlist

17-Mar-2005, 22:39

............just get out and ride :borg:

Assuming there's nothing drastically wrong with the bike it doesn't matter what bike you choose! Pick a warm dry sunny (if you get anything like that north of the Thames?) morning so you're wide awake, bright and a lert (remember Britain needs Lerts!) Start off slow and build it up gradually over a period of a few hours. You're lucky you haven't had any physical damage so you can get straight back out there, just take it easy and let yourself become absorbed by the riding experience. If you're anything like me it'll come back to you in no time as you relax into it until you suddenly realise you've done it!
Good luck with fixing the bike, that's the easy bit ;)

Lily

17-Mar-2005, 22:40

oh yeah btw.... i don't think you were doing 30 when you came off :P

probably closer to 20. If you were doing 30 with cold tyres on that roundabout it would explain why you came off!!

JPM

17-Mar-2005, 22:47

Thanks guys/gals...

You're all right and I "think" I do too, but trying to ignore what happened is the hard part, I did mention to Lily tonight that I should either find some good base settings from someone who has done the work already with their suspension and/or get someone to help me out.

The trackday on Saturday is with Tracktime promotions (little Hitler :D ), just had a look at their website and there is no mention of a suspension guy, so can only assume there won't be.

KAIS and MAXTON are within 30 mins of me so there's a good start I guess, does anyone else know anyone (preferably local to me) who's a set-up whizz?

Cheers

Dibble

17-Mar-2005, 22:51

mate, just phone JHP, they'll happily give you some decent base settings .....

JPM

17-Mar-2005, 22:53

Originally posted by DIBBLE
mate, just phone JHP, they'll happily give you some decent base settings .....

DIBS... yeah good point, I've spent 1/2 the week on the phone to them!! LOL

Dibble

17-Mar-2005, 22:57

well that leaves the other 1/2 ... they must miss your voice when you're not on the blower ...

otherwise i'll call em ...

just check your vital stats ....

5'4"
18 Stone
Medium speed road rider
Slow speed track rider
999 Bip - but blinged up with Ohlins ....

Anything else I need to know ???

JPM

17-Mar-2005, 22:59

You're a cheeky fecker!

5'5" actually...

You forgot ugly.............

Lily

17-Mar-2005, 23:04

at least you have just been on the phone to JHP, i have my own parking space allocated and have started getting discount on the M6 Toll :frog:

Not to mention my multi tasking this week...

today i have baked brownies, done fibreglass repairs, power sanding
food shopping, packaged and posted parcels not to mention making your lunch, dinner and more bike maintenance!

I reckon its the easy way to take your mind off things, i am too knackered to think about track day :D

Lily

17-Mar-2005, 23:12

you may have to force feed me if i am asleep in the corner....

skidlids

17-Mar-2005, 23:34

Have a look at Section 8 Superbikes website to see what their setup recomendations are.
The main thing for me would be tyres, I had my 916 rear step out on me as we left Popham last Sunday, this was my first time riding on Bridgestones in two years, if it had thrown me off and knocked my confidence I would be putting Pirellis back on ASAP.
As it didn't have me off the Bridgestones can say as I will soon be trying to sell it.

Jon

17-Mar-2005, 23:41

JP, what tyre are you running. If it Michelins pilot sports, either junk them or give them plenty of time to heat up. I too lost the back end due to cold michelins. You have just got to bite the bullet and go for it. But not too soon. You want heat into them tyres

JPM

18-Mar-2005, 10:57

Originally posted by Jon
JP, what tyre are you running. If it Michelins pilot sports, either junk them or give them plenty of time to heat up. I too lost the back end due to cold michelins. You have just got to bite the bullet and go for it. But not too soon. You want heat into them tyres

I'm running 208GP's which I know need heat in them, but I have been running these for the last 2 years, and before that 207GP*

Never had any issues with them in the past thus why I keep using them.

I hope I am imagining things, but the back end just feels loose, like I have a flat or something, it could be something else but everything looks OK from my basic understanding at least

18-Mar-2005, 11:07

Have you done some basic checks on the suspension and bearings at the rear end? Bounce the back end and see if the compression and rebound damping is still there - easier to see the rebound damping than compression, and make sure you cannot move the wheel in directions it is not meant to move in. I had an ST2 with 16k miles on it and the rear wheel bearings were shot - I could hold the trye and move the wheel from side to side. The problem was the bearing was exposed to the elements so it suffered. Is the 749/999 like that too? Reckon it might be.

Oh, and one other thing. You haven't got an Ohlins with the remote preload adjsuter like on the ST4s have you? One of my "mates" thought it funny to twiddle with that and screwd it up tight. That turned the rear suspension into a solid bar. I didn't see the funny side, funnily enough

:sniff:

Steve M

18-Mar-2005, 11:08

I can't see it being anything more than cold tyres on a cold road, it's not going to be a bike set problem up at that speed. Plus even if the road was dry, chances are that it was still covered in tiny grit particles etc.
This time tomorrow you'll be flying up Clay hill, tyres lovely and hot, throttle on the stop and a mile wide grin:burn:

18-Mar-2005, 11:12

SteveM has got a good point. I was reading something about the salt they are using on the roads this year. It is formulated to stay on the road longer, and also to be less corosive. However, the council (around here in Lincolnshire anyway) is still tipping as much on the road as before so you end up with a build up. People have come off bikes and then found the road to be "slippery", even though it is dry. Roads are still white around here.

JPM

18-Mar-2005, 11:16

Originally posted by HW
Have you done some basic checks on the suspension and bearings at the rear end? Bounce the back end and see if the compression and rebound damping is still there - easier to see the rebound damping than compression, and make sure you cannot move the wheel in directions it is not meant to move in. I had an ST2 with 16k miles on it and the rear wheel bearings were shot - I could hold the trye and move the wheel from side to side. The problem was the bearing was exposed to the elements so it suffered. Is the 749/999 like that too? Reckon it might be.

Oh, and one other thing. You haven't got an Ohlins with the remote preload adjsuter like on the ST4s have you? One of my "mates" thought it funny to twiddle with that and screwd it up tight. That turned the rear suspension into a solid bar. I didn't see the funny side, funnily enough

:sniff:

Henry, I've done pretty much all of this last night when I got back, suspension feels quite soft compared to the Bostrom as I had tinkered with that and was set-up pretty good for the track, nothing is loose, no play in the rear wheel, the bike isn't a year old yet, and spent most of it's life in a nice warm study being looked at, so wear/corrosion/elements would be zero in all honesty.

Problem is I am going to have to tinker with the suspension anyway, and to be honest I understand what each adjustment does, I just cannot relate the information I feel into what I should do with the suspension.

Originally posted by Steve M
I can't see it being anything more than cold tyres on a cold road, it's not going to be a bike set problem up at that speed. Plus even if the road was dry, chances are that it was still covered in tiny grit particles etc.
This time tomorrow you'll be flying up Clay hill, tyres lovely and hot, throttle on the stop and a mile wide grin

Steve I certainly hope so, it's a damn quick bike, scarily fast, but that could be down to being a fair weather jessie and not riding for 6 months :D

revdecal

18-Mar-2005, 11:57

its the usual story when someone has an off that cant be explained.
Ive had some terrible crashes racing but it never slowed me down because there was an explanation or someone to blame.
What i found worked for me was to talk to myself when circulating the track, telling myself to breath...relax and do the 'chicken wing flap' before going into corners (forcing your shoulders and arms to relax.
Its amazing how tight you realise you are!!
Takes time but you'll get there in the end! At least its going to be warm so you wont have to factor in track conditions too:D:D:D

[Edited on 18-3-2005 by revdecal]

Michael J

18-Mar-2005, 12:07

Originally posted by HW
SteveM has got a good point. I was reading something about the salt they are using on the roads this year. It is formulated to stay on the road longer, and also to be less corosive. However, the council (around here in Lincolnshire anyway) is still tipping as much on the road as before so you end up with a build up. People have come off bikes and then found the road to be "slippery", even though it is dry. Roads are still white around here.

I saw a TV report on a news programme during the winter where they said that they are now using molasses (spelling?) mixed in with the salt to keep the roads salted for longer.

Monty

18-Mar-2005, 12:08

Henry has a very good point about the salt John-my Passat with it's mighty 130bhp diesel engine was spinning the wheels up all over the place when the roads were salted-zero grip-not like Oulton at all.

Just take it steady mate, couple of sessions to get your confidence back, then build it up, you'll be fine.

Forcast is Sunny, 16c with 5mph SE winds-basically bloody lovely-enjoy!

John

Jools

18-Mar-2005, 12:17

Originally posted by jpmercer
Steve I certainly hope so, it's a damn quick bike, scarily fast, but that could be down to being a fair weather jessie and not riding for 6 months :D

I think that not riding for 6 months is probably half of your lack of confidence.

I usually ride throughout the year and find that the practise I get in winter, when you have to be real smooth and feel for grip everywhere stands me in good stead for when it's dry, warm and sticky tyred. When you ride all year round, you do get both ends of the bike getting a little squirmy now and then but the advantage is that you get to know what the bike feels like when it does that and you can cope with it if it does it in the dry - albeit at higher speeds.

This isn't an IAM Sam Browne lecture that I'm trying to give you here, because this year I have had no money to put new tyres on after the summer and haven't ridden since October. Today, I went to get a new Diablo, and it was my first time out on the bike for a good few months.

I felt exactly like you. I didn't feel nervous when I set off but when I saw that the first serious bend was still damp from overnight rain I felt really wobbly. Daren't tip it in and tiptoed round with my heart in my mouth. It didn't help that just a few corners later the police were waving traffic down and the Ambulances had just arrived at a very nasty RTA. After that I rode like a kitten to get a new rear tyre fitted.

I was even worse on the way back, knowing that I had got a new tyre that needed scrubbing in, and knowing that the tyre fitter had left a smear of grease on the right hand side of the tyre where grease from the spindle had got on his glove. I really did have a nervous few miles and only started to relax a bit when I found the main road home had now been closed as a result of the RTA. This diverted me onto one of my favourite roads - my local test loop. Because all the traffic was being diverted I couldn't have attacked it even if my confidence was up, and I spent a few miles just following the traffic through the twisties at about 40-50mph.

This gave me chance to practise slowly and by the time I got to the end of that road I was having fun by riding slow but testing myself to be inch perfect on my lines.

That's what I intend to do now. Start slow, remember that I'm going to be nowhere near as quick as I was last year (or anywhere near as quick as the BHC crew on the next rideout) ride my own pace, not put any pressure on myself to 'perform' and build it up gradually.

18-Mar-2005, 12:46

Originally posted by Michael J
Originally posted by HW
SteveM has got a good point. I was reading something about the salt they are using on the roads this year. It is formulated to stay on the road longer, and also to be less corosive. However, the council (around here in Lincolnshire anyway) is still tipping as much on the road as before so you end up with a build up. People have come off bikes and then found the road to be "slippery", even though it is dry. Roads are still white around here.

I saw a TV report on a news programme during the winter where they said that they are now using molasses (spelling?) mixed in with the salt to keep the roads salted for longer.

Molasses? :roll:

Do you think they meant, "it feels like molasses when you ride on it"?

Henry

Lily

18-Mar-2005, 12:57

OK Mister!!!

I have been mrs bloody supportive this week and i know how hard it has been but I am gonna act like you did with me when i came off and tell you

GET A GRIP!!!

the bike is fine, you are fine it was cold tyres and crap on the road, i know that, you know that and you are just playing on your normal negativity and making yourself feel worse!!

Tomorrow on track will be a controlled environment and the safest place to go out and have a gentle test ride to regain your confidence.

You can have a tinker with the settings on the bike if you want to and have info, but stop stressing about it!

You made me go out on track as the firt ride after my accidet and everything was fine so you will be fine and you know it so get a grip of yourself and be positive!!!!

Stop reading this thread and think about how much fun we are gonna have!

:P

18-Mar-2005, 12:58

I've just rescued MCN (9/2/2005) from the recyling pile.

<quote from page 9>
NEW GRIT BLAMED FOR SLPPERY ROADS
Hundreds of you have contacted us to say how greasy the roads have been this winter - and MCN can now reveal why. We've discovered that a new additive called Safecote, which is designed to reduce corrosion to behicles and damage to roads, means that salt can stick to the road for 50% longer than narmal, but many councils are using as much as ever. That means they've been spreading salt on top of salt, resulting in a greasy slime.

Ducnow

18-Mar-2005, 13:06

Originally posted by Lily
OK Mister!!!

I have been mrs bloody supportive this week and i know how hard it has been but I am gonna act like you did with me when i came off and tell you

GET A GRIP!!!

the bike is fine, you are fine it was cold tyres and whoopsie on the road, i know that, you know that and you are just playing on your normal negativity and making yourself feel worse!!

Tomorrow on track will be a controlled environment and the safest place to go out and have a gentle test ride to regain your confidence.

You can have a tinker with the settings on the bike if you want to and have info, but stop stressing about it!

You made me go out on track as the firt ride after my accidet and everything was fine so you will be fine and you know it so get a grip of yourself and be positive!!!!

Stop reading this thread and think about how much fun we are gonna have!

:P

:eureka:

No, he's doomed to never have confidence in riding again and he'll flip the bike every single time he takes her out.
There's nothing nobody can do :devil:

misterpink

18-Mar-2005, 14:46

my 2p worth...1) it is probably NOT the bike, OR you...... probably the roads/cold tyres. Roads are very slippery this year - i am hooning around on a bmw 650 enduro at the mo' - gutless but fun and controllable sideways - a great learning experience, a bit like a skidpan.2) try riding that bit of road again - not once but quite a few times - you will get over it 3) **** happens and sometimes it is expensive and inconvenient and this sometimes plays on the mind 4) the trackday is totally different to your road excursion - so treat it as such and enjoy....good luck, i am sure most of us have been there sometime??

Annette

18-Mar-2005, 16:43

Same type of accident happened to me at the beginning of Dec. One of those crisp winter mornings; bit of frost; beautiful blue sky. By 11am the frost had gone but it was still v. cold. Car? Bike? Bug*er it. Bike wins. Nice trip 5 miles down the road to have coffee with my dad and a friend. Got back on the bike to go home and the back came round and overtook the front. Tried to ride through it but it spat me over the bars and down the road. Very elegant. Only explanation I can think of is there was salt on the road; the road was cold; cold tyres and I asked too much of it for the conditions.
Been out a couple of times since and it's exactly as you say. Because you don't truely know how it happened, what's to stop it happening again?
Anyway, had the day off work today. Popped down to Brighton in the car to chill out for a couple of hours. Got back home. Sun's out. Road dry. Can't see much salt around (I know it's dry salt, but in my mind IT'S STILL OUT TO GET ME!!). Got the bike out and went for a poodle. Yep, my ears are listening for thing wrong; my senses are telling me it might not feel right; my reactions aren't sharp coz I've lost the feel for it all through lack of 'practice'; whereas before I would sling it about, I'm thinking twice about it. But, my confidence is improving each time I go out and today was a big jump forward.
I believe that when you start to think about what you are doing, whether it be driving a car or riding a push bike, that subconscious feel for things goes out the window and you start to wobble.
I KNOW there is nothing wrong with my bike. It's all in my head. I just need to get out more (it's not the first time I've heard that).
I think it just takes time, and not to put yourself in a position where you feel you have to live up to other peoples (and your own) expectations of how you were before the off for a while.
Doesn't mean I wasn't a bit scared. But I think that's the bit of people that keeps them sharp and alive.
Take it slowly.
Annette x

[Edited on 18-3-2005 by annette harris]

Jon

18-Mar-2005, 23:35

I hope I am imagining things, but the back end just feels loose, like I have a flat or something, it could be something else but everything looks OK from my basic understanding at least

You saying that, I had a go on Pedro's 749R at Cartagena and the back end felt loose to me too. Pedro loves it, says he can feel what the bike is doing. It felt to me has though the rear was moving about a lot? I did only have two hurried laps and not enough to give a real judgment.

I wounder if it might be temperamental to tyre pressures

[Edited on 18-3-2005 by Jon]

DAVE HARRIS

19-Mar-2005, 10:09

When I have crashed on track days I found my confidence came back quite quickly, but I was knocked off whilst stationary twice in the last 2 years by blind stupid drivers since then I have lost a lot of speed on track days and ride like the doddery old git I am in town ( I think that at a subconcious level I have lost my feeling of invuneranility). Time on the bike will help but as soon as I saw your original post I guesed it was probably this new form of salt that caught annette out before christmas.
On a brighter note when I got home last night annette said she had enjoyed riding yesterday and as I arived on the 999 she wanted to take it out this weekend, enjoy your track day theres no salt or shite to muck up the grip.

dave