Police Victimisation

[Derek]

Last night my son, who is 17 and had a licence for 6 months, was on his way home when he was stopped by the police for no apparent reason. He had just left a filling station and on rounding the bend 100 yds up the road he spotted 2 police bikes a couple of hundred yds ahead. He checked his speed on the digital speedo which I fitted and since it read 28mph he thought no worries and continued on. Needless to say the cops flagged him down, claimed he was doing at least 40 and asked to see his documents which of course like everyone else he doesn't carry around with him. They then told him he was being charged with careless driving and gave him a producer for his documents.
My son was in tears when he got home. These pigs are stitching him up for no good reason other than the fact that he is a youngster on a bike.
Now I know that my son is paranoid about speeding in built up areas and didn't trust the speedo on the VFR which is why he got the digi speedo and I beleive him when he says he was only doing 28mph but it's his word against 2 cops so I don't see what he can do. No doubt they will claim that they are "experts" at judging the speed of vehicles and in their opinion he was exceeding the speed limit. However at 9.50 pm it was dusk and accident investigation research has shown that judging the speed of an oncoming motorcycle is very difficult. Any ideas how I can help him with this?

I really thought that this sort of harrassment was a thing of the past and from bike cops - even worse.
I had previously been thinking of doing a Bikesafe course - stuff that now. All coppers are barstewards right enough :flame:

[bradders]

sounds rough mate. Has he been charged with DD or just given a producer? As a 'fully fledged' adult sometimes its tough to know exactly wots going on when ur stopped, a teenager will know even less. Any photo/radar evidence?

[ericthered40]

No not all coppers but if you are unlucky enough to bump in to the wrong ones you are Fu**ed.

You can’t beat a bent copper which is a real shame IMHO Coz if anyone deserves a good beating it them.

Good luck to your Son. Go to court and get him to tell them what he’s told you.


Sometimes you can get lucky and end up with someone sensible at the hearing.
:barfy:

[JPM]

I'd say unless they have any radar evidence etc how can anyone know what speed someone was doing? estimating something doesn't cut it IMO.

Unfortunately it's going to cost you or him money either way now I guess, either by paying the fine etc or getting a good solicitor to got to court and contest the issue in hand.

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

It is easy for parents to believe their kids especially in these kinds of cases. But we were all kids onece and I am sure we have all played a few games with the truth when dealing with parents. Part of growing up I guess. No comment on the above situation as it is probably as first told by the son, but before we all go ranting about crooked cops out to do in a youngster for no apparent reason, maybe we should remember out youth as well. i got in a street fight with a big bloke who came out of nowhere and started pounding on my parked car and friends. He broke both my side windows and was going after my young buddy before I wrestled with him in the middle of a busy intersection....17 years old...His father came over and listened to my recounting of the affair and he was in tears at the end....he had never seen that side of his son.
Remember when you all got a new bike or car at that age. The temptation to show off was pretty hard to shrug off.
Again, I do not doubt the story, but a word with the cops may be in order as well..

[HW]

This is not the kind of thing you expect to hear these days is it? That must be the total of the county's bike cops out in one place too - probably needed to justify their existence and your lad was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Unfortunately, police officers are considered to be "expert witnesses" and so are can determine that he was doing 40 in a 30 limit. The fact that there was 2 of them means it will be harder to argue. I do not know whether their "expertise" stretches to an oncoming motorcycle in dodgy light - lets face it most car drivers struggle to even SEE the motorcycle let alone know how fast it is going or register that it is moving at all.

Do I sound cynical? Sorry ... and apologies to the fine up standing law enforcement officers who I know are members of the club, and who I have a lot of respect for. There are always exceptions to the rule and hopefully these 2 are the exceptions NOT the rule!

Good luck to you and your lad Derek, please tell us how it goes.

[Derek]

Thanks for the kind words guys. As I said the only evidence is their "expert opinion". In Scotland there has to be corroborative evidence but since there were 2 of them, one backs up the opinion of the other and that's all that's required. My son came back very upset and totally confused about what had been said to him so I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.
Despite the "expertness" of the cops if it comes to it I am willing to take them on in court and imply that they might be mistaken in the poor light at the time. I'd also like to get a hold of some of the research on motorcycle visibilty to back this up. Any doubt that can be cast on their evidence can only be to the good. My wife happens to work for a firm of solicitors which might be to our advantage.

[Rushjob]

The only thing I'd comment on at the moment, being able to see this from both sides, so to speak, is to ask how you checked the accuracy of the new speedo when you fitted it?

He checked his speed on the digital speedo which I fitted and since it read 28mph he thought no worries and continued on

If it was accurate then, is it still now???
You need to be on solid ground that what your lad says he saw on the display was actually the speed that the bike was doing.
Before you go forward, I'd ensure that you're happy that your lad was looking at an accurate indicated speed first...if not & it was out as a mate found when he compared his GPS to his digital bike speedo on a streetfighter he'd built ( 26% under reading in his case indicating 37 at a true 50mph, even though it was fitted as per the instructions! ) you may be heading for a bit of an egg in face type scenario.

[Dave G]

It was an eye opening revelation to me to find out our police are so overtly corrupt when I moved back to the area I grew up in.I'm not talking about seedy back handers from locals crims but (in one case ) multiple rape and the blind eye turned by that plods colleagues,routine lying in court where being 'economical with the truth' is the norm,a general arrogance and racism and sense of talking down to any non police,not just my observation but from freinds who work for other police areas and a couple of soliciters.
My advice would be to get very proactive about this derek,if your wife is in the legal proffesion find out about the charges brought by these two...or I bet it'll be one of them more than the other,and find out if they're a bit quick off the mark in any charges too,write to their boss claiming harrassment and false charges and let them know you wont back down,as thats what most bullies count on,these guys are in a position of authourity and they cant be allowed to abuse it.Though expect them to close ranks big style.
Also inform the local press,and let the chief constable(find out his name) know you'll be talking to your MSP about it.
All guns blazing Derek.

This from a normal citizen never been in trouble in my life,and with apologies to the individuals whom I know are policemen here.Dont trust any of them they are subject to the same avaricious gudges as anyone else,training my arse!
:flame:

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by Dave G
It was an eye opening revelation to me to find out our police are so overtly corrupt when I moved back to the area I grew up in.I'm not talking about seedy back handers from locals crims but (in one case ) multiple rape and the blind eye turned by that plods colleagues,routine lying in court where being 'economical with the truth' is the norm,a general arrogance and racism and sense of talking down to any non police,not just my observation but from freinds who work for other police areas and a couple of soliciters.
My advice would be to get very proactive about this derek,if your wife is in the legal proffesion find out about the charges brought by these two...or I bet it'll be one of them more than the other,and find out if they're a bit quick off the mark in any charges too,write to their boss claiming harrassment and false charges and let them know you wont back down,as thats what most bullies count on,these guys are in a position of authourity and they cant be allowed to abuse it.Though expect them to close ranks big style.
Also inform the local press,and let the chief constable(find out his name) know you'll be talking to your MSP about it.
All guns blazing Derek.

This from a normal citizen never been in trouble in my life,and with apologies to the individuals whom I know are policemen here.Dont trust any of them they are subject to the same avaricious gudges as anyone else,training my arse!
:flame:

so not a fan then !

[Herb]

If they do not have a radar reading then take it to court. A surprising number do not stand up in court where evidence must be produced.
My mate (an IAM rider incidentaly) was recently prosecuted for speeding on the evidence of a guy in a panda driving the opposite way who thought he 'must' have been speeding as it took 2 miles to catch up.
It did not stand up to scrutiny in court. I would get a good soliciter and fight it.
I have first hand experience of good and bad policemen so I know both types are out there.

[Derek]

Originally posted by Rushjob
The only thing I'd comment on at the moment, being able to see this from both sides, so to speak, is to ask how you checked the accuracy of the new speedo when you fitted it?

He checked his speed on the digital speedo which I fitted and since it read 28mph he thought no worries and continued on

If it was accurate then, is it still now???
You need to be on solid ground that what your lad says he saw on the display was actually the speed that the bike was doing.
Before you go forward, I'd ensure that you're happy that your lad was looking at an accurate indicated speed first...if not & it was out as a mate found when he compared his GPS to his digital bike speedo on a streetfighter he'd built ( 26% under reading in his case indicating 37 at a true 50mph, even though it was fitted as per the instructions! ) you may be heading for a bit of an egg in face type scenario.

Rushjob,

I have no doubt that the speedo reading was pretty close. I had a similar one on my SS and it was very accurate indeed. However I would not quote that as evidence unless I was very sure of it. My son has been riding for nearly 2 years and he is smart enoough to know the difference between 30 and 40+ mph. He spotted the police as soon as he rounded the corner and checked his speed immediately to make sure he wasn't going too fast. He may be young but he's not daft!

[Dave G]

Not a fan of my local force Dickie,and my best pals a policeman too.
Shame really as i know they mostly have a tough job,but strathclydes pr is so poor that its very much created a them and us situation with pretty much the whole public.You get the police you deserve they say.
Im for reforming the whole lot of them.

[Rushjob]

So where did I insinuate he was daft?
I gave you a hint as to how to be CERTAIN that you were on solid ground.
To be sure of your position, you need to know how accurate / inaccurate it was, not a feeling.
I'll keep my thoughts to myself in future.
Good luck.

[HW]

Originally posted by Rushjob
So where did I insinuate he was daft?
I gave you a hint as to how to be CERTAIN that you were on solid ground.
To be sure of your position, you need to know how accurate / inaccurate it was, not a feeling.
I'll keep my thoughts to myself in future.
Good luck.

Andy, folk get upset and angry when they feel they have been not been treated fairly. Your thoughts are valuable, especially considering the circumstances, so please don't keep them to yourself. I am sure it was not meant as a personal attack.

[ak47]

Why wasn't he charged for speeding? something odd there.

[ak47]

i'd contest it

[VanDaMauler]

Try this.

Speeding coppers let off 59 times. :mad::mad::mad:

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,2060-14569-1629848,00.html

[guest1]

Derek - stay level headed and composed mate.
Get as much evidence as possible re road conditions.
If possible get a light meter and measure the ambient light in all areas of the road - where the coppers were stood, where the bike was pulled, where the bend is etcetera for the same times as your lad was pulled.
did the coppers have there helmets on and visors down?
Get a weather description if possible for the night it happened.
Get measurements.
It all helps to show you've built the most complete picture as to conditions of visibility and if prove the coppers were in error.
Best of luck.

And if all else fails, can't you just say the lad was familiarising himself with the digital speedo?

ps, I'm sure there was a safety campaign some time ago which stated the estimation of speed of a bike with it's lights on was most often incorrect.

[Edited on 27-5-2005 by guest1]

[guest1]

Derek, quick search revealed:
research (http://www.cooperbiketraining.org.uk/news/download/safety2page.pdf)
item B.2.f re estimation of speed.
(not with the lights on though but it does refer to Hills measurements?)


[Edited on 27-5-2005 by guest1]

[Jools]

I don't know whether age has anything to do with it (although it's difficult to tell how old somebody is when they've got a lid on), but my son got pulled over when he was driving his mum's Smart car through Milton Keynes.

He got a producer and a real dressing down from a very snotty and sarcastic PC (his mum was in the passenger seat at the time). He wasn't speeding or anything. His crime? Well, despite it being a clear sunny day, my wifes's Smart is equipped with a 'light pack' (didn't really want it, it just came with the car they had in stock). The 'light pack' makes the Smart think it's a Volvo and switches the dipped beam on as soon as you start driving. Apparently, one of the headlamp bulbs was out - funnily enough it was OK when they got home.

[bradders]

jools - wasnt wearing a hoody was he??

[Dibble]

Originally posted by Rushjob
So where did I insinuate he was daft?


Rushjob,

In defence of Derek here (and I don't know him at all) I think that you and I have read completely different replies from the man.

I read a reply that outlined where his confidence in the digital speedo came from with a tongue in cheek remark at the end about his son. Which I read more as being a way of injecting something a little lighthearted into proceeding than a dig at you, although I appreciate the response was aimed at you.

I think if you re-read it you may see where I am coming from.

You are a highly respected member of the club and at time have given invaluable advice to people as a result of your occupation.

Please do not mistakenly read a single post and change that, as thats what I believe you may have done.

Apologies if this seems like a lecture but we need all the strong memberes we can get.

Derek,

Best of luck mate.

[Derek]

Originally posted by Rushjob
So where did I insinuate he was daft?
I gave you a hint as to how to be CERTAIN that you were on solid ground.
To be sure of your position, you need to know how accurate / inaccurate it was, not a feeling.
I'll keep my thoughts to myself in future.
Good luck.

Rushjob,

Sorry If you feel offended. I didn't mean to imply that you said he was daft. I mean't only to imply that he has some degree of common sense and that upon seeing the police he made sure that he wasn't speeding. Thanks for your input and please don't feel that you should keep your thoughts to yourself - I'd rather hear them.

[Derek]

Originally posted by guest1
Derek, quick search revealed:
research (http://www.cooperbiketraining.org.uk/news/download/safety2page.pdf)
item B.2.f re estimation of speed.
(not with the lights on though but it does refer to Hills measurements?)


[Edited on 27-5-2005 by guest1]

Thanks Alan. Thats the sort of thing I'm looking for.

[andyb]

If he got a Producer, it will have a collar number on it. Why not speak to that Officer to find out, a) what he says happened, and b) what that Officer is going to do about what?

Was your son interviewed? was he cautioned? was he offered the opportunity for legal advise? was he reported? Was he NIp'd? Did he sign anything? If he was charged, wheres his copy of the charge? What did he do that was careless in the couple of hundred yards after rounding the bend to the officers? What evidence do they have of the speed?

[Edited on 27-5-2005 by andyb]

[Edited on 27-5-2005 by andyb]

[Jools]

Originally posted by bradders
jools - wasnt wearing a hoody was he??

Nah...Didn't want to brag, but since he's just doing his finals after 4 years at Brasenose College, Oxford he's not really the hoody type. Thankfully, he's not a speccy swot or a hooray either. Just a normal looking and pretty mature 22 year old.

[Carbon749]

I know it may not help, but, I was stopped for speeding mid 2004. Forgetting the actual speeding part for a moment, the officer that stopped me entered a statement in to court that said he had shown me the speed reading on the police pilot, that he had cautioned me and that he advised me that I would be prosecuted.

He did non of these but his signed statement says he did :mad:

My solicitor pointed out that for the court to side with me would be admitting they thought the officer was lying and there was little to no chance of that.

From my experience if the police want to stretch the truth to suit them there is very little you will be able to do.

All that said, to give a balanced argument, this is the first time in 20 years of driving / riding that I have experienced this type of behavior from the police.

Hope it all works out for your son.

[Bionicle]

All coppers are barstewards right enough

Not wishing to condone thew police in this particular incedent however i do dissagree with the above comment.

Having flown into stansted airport at 11.00 oclock at night, hired a car for the trip up to lincolnshire, and traveling between the A1 and lincoln was caught behind a stupid driver in a white van who at my every attempt to overtake would pull slowly over to the right causing me to brake and drop back, going through the small village of Ruskington i took my chance on a small stright part of the road to overtake, not noticing that a car in front of the van that had just pulled out of a side street was a police car, on go the blues and i dully pull over, knowing full well one, i had been speeding , and two i had overtaken on a solid white line.

I pulled up behind the police car and got out ready to face the inevitable however after explaing the situation to the officer to my supprise he suggested that i continue my jorney at a more sedate speed and wished me good night.

2 miles further on at a particular sharp left hander i saw the tail lights of the van i had passed which had continued ahead after i was stopped, however they were 5 foot higher in the air than they should have been and not moving ? as i drew closer i could see he had continued in a straight line and now had his bonnet burried in the ditch with his back wheels a good 4 foot off the ground, fortunatly as the police car was not 100 meters behind me help was at hand for the unfortunate driver and after stoping and waiting for the police car to catch up the officer simply waved me on my way while he no doubt took charge of the situation.

Ok a long winded post i know, but i just wanted to make a point that not everyone should be tared with the same brush, there is too much of that going on and not just with the police, as bike riders we suffer from attitudes that go back to the 60s of mod and rockers, we live with the stigma from thouse days that all who ride bikes are mindless law breaking hooligans, so we have enough to contend with as it is, without making similar comments towards the police.

[Murray Mint]

Bionicle, well said.

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

My first post mentioned talking to the police involved. I really doubt that most police in the UK are ditwads or worse as most of them are probably good family folks looking to do a good job like most of us. In my life in the US and abroad I have run into about 1 really nutso officer and I have had a number of occasions to meet officers in the US, Europe, Asia and Russia. UK police were more than friendly at times and seemed pretty professional, US cops have been generally understanding of a situation, letting me off with a warning more times than not. In this particular case a lot of people suggest all kinds of actions such as checking ambient light, looking at sites regarding estimated speeds, etc., but wouldn't it be better to ask the cops what this is all about before jumping into all that. As I said before, we are probably all teenagers at heart (red blooded ones at that) and can probably remember when our hormones got the best of us. The sone involved is probably not too genetically removed from any of us so perhaps approaching the other party may be of value.
Finally, my approach to such situations is honesty. I don't try to wiggle out of the charge, but do try to let the guy know that I was aware of and in control of the situation. Got tagged for doing 122 kmh on an expressway (patrol car reading) but when they started to write the ticket out I laughed at that figure and told them I was doing well over 122 (probably 165). They had 122 on the meter because 130 is automatic license suspension. ANyway, they laughed at my honesty and just gave me a warning. There is a human side to most cops as well. Let us know how it turns out!

[Derek]

I spoke to Niall (my son) over the weekend, now that he has calmed down and is a bit more approachable. He is still absolutely adamant that he was riding at under 30mph. He saw the police immediately upon rounding the bend and continued on at that speed. They flagged him down and said he was doing "nearly 40 mph". Niall wasn't quite clear about what they said next but they asked him about documents and he said he didn't have a V5 (it didn't occur to him to tell him that he'd only had the bike just over a week and he hadn't got it back from DVLA). They then cautioned him, charged him with careless driving, telling him that a report would be issued to the Procurator Fiscal who may decide to carry out proceedings against him, and issued him with a producer for his documents. He was not given a charge sheet. However this is in Scotland and may not be a legal requirement. I still have no idea who the officers were nor what their grounds are for careless driving. Speaking to them may not be a good idea anyway as it might possibly be conceived as "attempting to pervert the course of justice".
As I see it, unless the police have concocted a load of lies, the Procurator Fiscal should just throw this out. "Nearly 40mph" hardly constitutes careless driving! I will let you know any future developments.

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

yep, that does not sound like any kind of glaring dangerous riding to me. Hope this works out for Niall. Cops may have seen something they didn't like in his driving and may have been mistaken. Maybe they were concerned about safety issues in the area. Hard to tell.

[lane748]

I think we're missing the point here- in the original post, it says that the m/c cops guessed he was speeding BUT are doing him for careless driving. That is NOT speeding. & they dont need a radar to observe careless driving. Is it possible he might have done something else to get pulled?

Where I'm based, we prefer to see a moving traffic offence before we pull someone over- we dont simply stop for the sake of it. We cannot do someone for speeding unless we have an approved speed measuring device fitted (i.e: traffic cars)

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

Hmmmm. 17 year old, new bikie, interesting corner. Very possible.....Haven't we all been there before.
Nice to have a coppers point of view on the matter though.

[Jewell]

"all coppers are bastids"


hate it when people say that......maybe people should live in avon&somerset....police are much nicer here.

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

To some people they are until they are needed. Most that I have known or have become acquainted with (through not fault of my own, of course) have been regular guys doing what seems to be an important job. A few are bastids, but I've only met a couple like that (even in the wilds of Texas and New Mexico {speed trap heaven})
Does the UK have access to the long running TV program COPS (bad boy, whatya gonna do). People in the UK are lucky in not having to deal with the large population of low lifes that US cops have to.

[Rob748]

you've never been to Dewsbury then?:D

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

Yep, haven't had the pleasure. Then again, you may not have been to Clovis New Mexico...:lol:

[gary888]

Derek,
Don't know if you've seen it, but have a look at www.pepipoo.com It's a website about speeding offences and the police.
You may get some useful information from them, or at least it could point you in the right direction.
Regards, Gary.

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

Uhh, I thought he wasn't charged for speeding. Something else at work here. Sounds like they said he was probably doing over 40 or something and charged for reckless driving.

[Derek]

Gary,

As MD says he wasn't charged with speeding. He was charged with careless driving for doing "nearly 40mph" in their words. But I'll check out the link anyway - there might be something useful there. Thanks.

[Rob748]

The speeding thing is out of the window now - no laser, no callibrated follow. The question as has been said earlier is the careless driving and what he did that amounted to it. His driving will have had to have fallen below the standard of a competent driver/rider. So what was it that he did? You need to get a very clear picture of exactly what happened and when from Niall, it may be he has done something obvious without realising it. Was he riding with anyone else? What exactly was he riding, what condition etc. I think you would be well worth getting in touch with your local police station and finding out when the officer concerned is next working. Then get in touch with him and speak to him about it, voice your concerns and ask him the full nature of the incident. He should be more than happy to explain and it'll put your mind at rest to some extent. I'm not suggesting anyone is in the right or wrong without knowing the full situation but it's worth remembering there are two sides to most things and youre better off knowing them both before rushing to conclusions.

You never know, your son Niall may have just been issued a producer and been given a ticking off for whatever. On giving a producer the caution has to be read out (in England at least) and most people who've never been in bother start to panic. Lets just hope he got it wrong in confusion... fingers crossed.

[andyb]

personally, i think all solicitors are bastids, at least the criminal defence ones....geese how do they sleep at night???:puzzled: closely followed by estate agents..what qualifications again?? then there's dentists, all going private, smary sales people.........officious secretaries that want every little detail.

My point is there are bastids everywhere, in fact i could be a bastid?? :lol::lol:

[PDL]

I agree the Police should be Victimised.

[andyb]

Originally posted by Desmo748
I agree the Police should be Victimised.

Except when you want some help........................;)

[PDL]

Originally posted by andyb
Originally posted by Desmo748
I agree the Police should be Victimised.

Except when you want some help........................;)

I usually call my psyco analyst then...

[Mad Dog Bianchi]

I usually call my babe for a little psycho therapy in Japanese (psycho babble??) But I tend to agree with rob as his seems to be the most level headed approach. You may also get a read on the officer involved. If you approach as a concerned parent looking for an answer without being accusatory, a professional officer would probably be more than willing to address your issues. If he just fobs you off, then you probably have a rogue on your hands.
My guess is that is not the case.

[Derek]

Guys,
I said I would let you know the outcome of my son's "Careless Driving" charge.

Well he got 5 points and a £200 fine and it could have been much worse!!

Six weeks or so after the incident he got a summons for "Dangerously driving a motorcycle at speeds up to 50mph". Conviction for this would have resulted in a mandatory ban and remained on his licence for 10 years. We of course got a solicitor to act for him. At the plea the Fiscal's Office indicated that they would accept a charge Careless Driving if he pleaded guilty. He was advised not to accept ths and to plead Not Guilty.
As it turned out the Police's evidence was a string of lies. They claimed to have heard a motorcycle accelerating rapidly for some time before he came into veiw. They claimed that they then saw him approach them at a speed up to and exceeding 50mph (at the time the said he was doing nearly 40) and that the roads were particularly busy at the time due a local funfair. They also claimed that they heard his tyres screeching!! The map they presented showed them positioned at a road junction when in fact they were not at the junction but some 15 yds back, behind bushes where the could not have seen Niall or more than a second or two.
He had just come out of a filling station 50yds round the corner and could hardly been accelerating hard for the time they claimed.
The roads were not busy at the time (9.40pm) and they failed to mention that Niall was following a car so was unlikely to have been travelling faster than it. And as for screeching the tyres that was simply added for effect being virtually impossible on a bike unless you're Valentino Rossi.
We also found out that a complaint had been made to the police by some retired senior policeman about youngsters wheelying in a nearby carpark. These two policemen had been sent to investigate and presumably told to catch somebody for it. They didn't find any bikes at the carpark so staked out the road nearby. 12 minutes later Niall was the first young biker that came along and they must have reckoned "this one will do" and set him up.
The trouble is that the Court doesn't take kindly to people saying that the policemen involved are a pair of liars and there's not much could be done since Niall had no witnesses to back him up.
Lessons have been learned from this and we are grateful that Niall didn't get banned as that could have cost him his job as well. Not a nice way to start his motoring career and he will never ever trust a policemen.:flame:

[misterpink]

stinky, stinky smell - i know it will leave a bitter taste in everyones mouth (except the coppers - who have "done their job"), but best get on with life.
no consolation i know - but my wife got stopped on her scooter by 2 of our finest (on bikes too??) for turning into oxforD st when she wasn't meant too. got a £30 fine, a talking too because her L plate was broken, told that she would have been done for dangerous driving if she hadn't slowed at the ped. crossing and then lectured for half an hour on.........the merits of an iPod nano (which she was off to buy me for my birthday) i would have thought a warning might have been OK then they could have got on with catching criminals or at least 1 or 2 of the thousands of drivers in london with a mobile glued to their ear. tell your boy not to worry and enjoy riding his bike.

[FiscusFish]

Originally posted by misterpink
they could have got on with catching criminals....

Seriously....?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:: lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Dave G]

It doesnt end there Derek,his insurance company will gleefuly pump up his premium for years to come making the initial fine seem paltry.
When I was young we were taught to have respect for the police,I certainly wont be passing that lesson on to my sons,keep your distance and dont trust any of them!!!

[ChrisBushell]

Must admit that this is a very sad affair all together.

I had a similar experience in September 2001, comig back from a Club meeting one Sunday lunchtime. Two coppers hiding on bikes, behind some bushes down near the roundabout, where we turned round to come back up a dual carraige way home.

Lots of traffic over the 300 yeards to the next roundabout then a 1 mile stretch to the next one. Yes I got to the front of the traffic and opened up the bike for the mile run. No two ways I exceeded the 70mph speedlimit and probably touched 95, but did not go over the ton.

Held up after the mile at the next roundabout by traffic and got a tap on the shoulder, pull over sonny! Interesting thing was that when I took my helemt off he realised that I was probably 10 years older than him!

Anyway he informed me that he had followed me for half a mile at a speed in excess of 100-110 mph and would be repoting me for same. Also got a producer.

Heard nothing, so thought that it had gone away, until end of Jan 2002 with a summons. Speeds in excess of 100, followed for half a mile on the A229 by Officer XXXXXXX, Court date early March, mandatory attendance as I was up for a ban.

I went and saw a Solicitor who pointed out that teh Court would always beleive a Policeman (expert witness, not subject to bias, etc) over the defendant. I spoke to a Barrister about the fact that how could I have been doing 110 for half a mile, including accelerating and braking from the 1st to the 2nd roundabouts on a piece of road barely a mile long. Their view was that with an expert witness it would be possible to dent the calim, but with a less than 25% chance of getting a result.

The good news was that the CPS got the charge wrong, they had charged me with speeding on a Motorway and it was just an A road. The Court date was two days over the 6 month limit. We sat tight went into Court and pointed out that the Charge had been wrongly presented and the case was thrown out.

I have to say that I was very lucky, I would almost certainly got at least a 4-8 week ban and 3 points, not to mention an earnings related fine.

As with the above case, it means that I would be very unlikely to trust a Policeman again without additional unrefuteable eveidence.

I suppose the moral is to drive at 10 mph below the speed limit!

[misterpink]

boring afternoon - so thinking cap on - don't know what bike your son has but here goes say..... it does 0-60 in 6 secs; 0-30 in 3 secs and that on the way to 30 it averages 10mph how far would he have travelled in 3 secs?? about 13.33 metres (i think) certainly not 100metres from roundabout see i told you i was bored (actually recovering from hangover)

[Tantrum992]

Originally posted by Derek
Guys,
I said I would let you know the outcome of my son's "Careless Driving" charge.

Well he got 5 points and a £200 fine and it could have been much worse!!

Six weeks or so after the incident he got a summons for "Dangerously driving a motorcycle at speeds up to 50mph". Conviction for this would have resulted in a mandatory ban and remained on his licence for 10 years. We of course got a solicitor to act for him. At the plea the Fiscal's Office indicated that they would accept a charge Careless Driving if he pleaded guilty. He was advised not to accept ths and to plead Not Guilty.
As it turned out the Police's evidence was a string of lies. They claimed to have heard a motorcycle accelerating rapidly for some time before he came into veiw. They claimed that they then saw him approach them at a speed up to and exceeding 50mph (at the time the said he was doing nearly 40) and that the roads were particularly busy at the time due a local funfair. They also claimed that they heard his tyres screeching!! The map they presented showed them positioned at a road junction when in fact they were not at the junction but some 15 yds back, behind bushes where the could not have seen Niall or more than a second or two.
He had just come out of a filling station 50yds round the corner and could hardly been accelerating hard for the time they claimed.
The roads were not busy at the time (9.40pm) and they failed to mention that Niall was following a car so was unlikely to have been travelling faster than it. And as for screeching the tyres that was simply added for effect being virtually impossible on a bike unless you're Valentino Rossi.
We also found out that a complaint had been made to the police by some retired senior policeman about youngsters wheelying in a nearby carpark. These two policemen had been sent to investigate and presumably told to catch somebody for it. They didn't find any bikes at the carpark so staked out the road nearby. 12 minutes later Niall was the first young biker that came along and they must have reckoned "this one will do" and set him up.
The trouble is that the Court doesn't take kindly to people saying that the policemen involved are a pair of liars and there's not much could be done since Niall had no witnesses to back him up.
Lessons have been learned from this and we are grateful that Niall didn't get banned as that could have cost him his job as well. Not a nice way to start his motoring career and he will never ever trust a policemen.:flame:
That really sucks, and so do the coppers involved, youngster + motor bike = easy target :flame:

[guest1]

Originally posted by ChrisBushell
I suppose the moral is to drive at 10 mph below the speed limit!

and risk getting prosecuted for interrupting the flow of traffic or driving without due care and consideration for other road users?

I follow the same motto as my signature, never trust a copper with a round neck.

[guest1]

Commiserations to your lad derek, spose that's tainted his and many others views of coppers for a very long while.

Just a thought having read all of the above posts - will this type of thread become an endangered species if the latest bill of "incitement to hatred" gets through parliament?

[philthy]

My 2d worth.

Sounds like your son got a very raw deal. A similar thing happened to me many years ago and under totting up I got a 12 month ban.

Boy did I hate coppers after that, A.C.A.B. on the back of my leathers etc. It cost me a fortune in inflated insurance premiums for years afterwards too.

After a while I realised how many times I broke the speed limits by a wide margin without being caught ( Isn't youth wonderfull, you think you are indestructible) and decided to be philosophical about it.

Some years later I ended up working very closely with the police regarding some pretty nasty criminal elements. I found them all to be very concientious and prepared to go out of their way to offer support at all hours of the day and night.

The problem is however that police officers come from the same society as us and they will range from really nice blokes doing a difficult and sometimes extremely dangerous job right down to a very small minority who will lie and cheat.

Hopefully your son has met two from the minority and in future will meet the good cops.

Phil

[Edited on 19-10-2005 by philthy]

[madmav]

well what an interesting story!

Firstly in defence of the boys in blue on here!

They can never win;)

First people you call when your in trouble:)
First people you **** off when it suites you:smug:

My own dealings with 2 bent coppers was two years ago!

you all have gathered by now that i have spent most of my life "ON THE ROAD":cool:

and with more catagories on my licence HGV, PSV, BIKE, and a member of Rospa, Iam, etc etc
joking apart i take my Driving/riding very seriously:D

so anyway, one sunny sunday morning i was out with my missus on my brand new R1 (Running it in) we headed of to a local bike cafe for breaky! on route we were bimbleing along at about 55 in a nice country lane when , 5/6 sports bikes went past us at 100 plus mph (estimated) they were on a mission:lol:
about a third of a mile further on i looked in my mirror and coming up behind me was a squad car with blues/two's blaring away.
it was a realy tight section of road with a blind crest and the road was divided with Double whites!!!
I indicated to the left and tooked in real tight,as it was obviouse he was after the said bikes that has just left me in their wash:lol::lol:
well was i supprised when he pulled me in the next layby and started reading the riot act to me and explaining that i must tell him who the other riders were!:puzzled:
and that he had clocked me at 98mph and he had done speeds in excess of 140mph to catch me and my Friends of which i knew none of them!
anyway after a 1hr roadside heated discusion , which resulted in them actualy telling me to accept the £60 fine and 3 points as it would be a lot worse if i went to court!:mad:
I took the ticket(Bad move) and made a note of the officers colar no's and went home :mad::mad::mad:

monday morning i was in my solicitors office Pronto

Ok up shot for me!!!!

I now carry with me a Dictaphone;) and whenever i'm stoped i simply ask nicely for the officer to speak into it,explaing that i'm thick and have a attention deficiency;) and that he/she will need to talk into the machine and tell me why/what i have been stoped for? and what if any charges i will be faceing:(
also explaining that i will be handing the recording to my solicitor and they will be hearing directly from him;)

so far in 2005 i have been stoped eight times in about 80.000 miles car/bike for one thing or another :D so far no officers have taken me up on my Karaokee machine:lol::lol:
and i have been told the error of my ways,and sent on my way:smug:
"Works for me":P

so the moral of the story is Dont knock the coppers you never no when you will need one:)

just play the game there's good and bad in all walks of

life:roll:

Andy and rushjob etc do a real hard job! as most of us do !
their bit of fun is the same as ours being part of a great club and avid motorcycleist's

just my 10p worth...................mav

ps dereck hope your boys ok

[andyb]

"The trouble is that the Court doesn't take kindly to people saying that the policemen involved are a pair of liars and there's not much could be done since Niall had no witnesses to back him up."

So are "the courts" in on the lies too?
:D

[berto]

:o Oh lighten up you,like we discussed the"all of them are bastids" will never change wrong place wrong time that's it.life's unfair get feckin used to it...

[andyb]

Bit like saying "all jocks are tight!":D;)

[sye73]

Jeeez Derek,sounds like your boy got a really rough deal.What's the matter with these people...you'd hope that everyone entering the police force wanted to act honestly and truthfully. Hopefully Niall will see that he just got real unlucky + can move on.

[antonye]

Originally posted by andyb
So are "the courts" in on the lies too?
:D

That's not what he said though, is it. What he did say was:
"As it turned out the Police's evidence was a string of lies."

Of course we all know that the Courts will always believe the word of a Policeman over the word of Joe Public because they are there to uphold the law without prejudice and to tell the truth under oath.

This is unfortunately where it all goes wrong.

[Ray]

In front of the magis you are GUILTY unless you can prove you are innocent with HARD evidence.

They invariably believe the officer of the law when they state they saw you doing 1001 MPH on the back wheel of your FS1E.
Unless you can produce evidence that said FS1E cannot do 1001 MPH.

The magis don't know any better and as biker you are "known" to be a danger to all and sundry.

The police are under pressure to "do the numbers" much like any other profession and in some circumstances do a VERY difficult job VERY WELL.

Unfortunately IMHO Police officers are in the position where they can in effect "convict" someone on the spot based on their own desire to "do the right thing". They can exercise powers that have been increasingly handed to them by the Nanny state.

Sometimes the consequences are less serious than others. In certain situations they are under enormous pressure to "do the right thing" in a life or death situation so you can expect some things to go wrong from time to time despite extensive training.

Pulling a road user up for "speeding" ain't one of those situations.

Ray

[andyb]

Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by andyb
So are "the courts" in on the lies too?
:D

That's not what he said though, is it. What he did say was:
"As it turned out the Police's evidence was a string of lies."

Of course we all know that the Courts will always believe the word of a Policeman over the word of Joe Public because they are there to uphold the law without prejudice and to tell the truth under oath.

This is unfortunately where it all goes wrong.


"The trouble is that the Court doesn't take kindly to people saying that the policemen involved are a pair of liars and there's not much could be done since Niall had no witnesses to back him up."


This is what he said Ant.....I do believe that that is deemed OPINION, not fact, and quite rightly you will not get very far with opinion....unless it is expert! Of course the two Officers are not experts either!

I can also assure you that the Magistrates are told not to believe a Police Officer just because he is a Police Officer.

[clockwork orange]

Originally posted by RayThey can exercise powers that have been increasingly handed to them by the Nanny state.
Ray

And how much of this is due to various elements of society blatantly and excessively disregarding the law???

The other day I was driving at 55mph in a 50mph limit - and was the slowest vehicle on the (busy!) road. Its a fact that well over half the road users out there seem to be incapable of obeying a simple law such as a speed limit. So if a copper pulls someone over - he's got a better than 50% chance of being right. :devil:

OK, devil's advocate mode now turned off.

[bradders]

Originally posted by clockwork orange
Originally posted by RayThey can exercise powers that have been increasingly handed to them by the Nanny state.
Ray

And how much of this is due to various elements of society blatantly and excessively disregarding the law???

The other day I was driving at 55mph in a 50mph limit - and was the slowest vehicle on the (busy!) road. Its a fact that well over half the road users out there seem to be incapable of obeying a simple law such as a speed limit. So if a copper pulls someone over - he's got a better than 50% chance of being right. :devil:

OK, devil's advocate mode now turned off.


.......or are the speed limits wrong??

[antonye]

Originally posted by andyb
I can also assure you that the Magistrates are told not to believe a Police Officer just because he is a Police Officer.

That's not how I understand it (or believe it to be) but I'm sure you have a lot more experience than me in this!

[Rushjob]

My brother is a Magistrate... he found it difficult to rationalise that bit of his training with two brothers being Cops.
But it is true.

[clockwork orange]

Originally posted by bradders.......or are the speed limits wrong??

In some cases yes probably. But were likely put in for a reason at the time. It would be nice if we could be left to choose an appropriate speed for the conditions, however a lot of folks would see that as a licence to use warp speed all the time. Which is possibly why we have silly limits in some areas now.

160mph on a straight motorway with no other traffic in daylight is safe, but 70mph when foggy, busy and dark is unsafe. 30 or 40 might be more appropriate, but how many people actually slow down in those conditions????

Until ALL road users can be mature enough to be reasonable, then our behaviour will have to be policed. Unfortunately.

[Ray]

C0,

Don't get me started on the nanny state stuff. We are living in a society where everyone wants to know where the boundaries are for every aspect of life, presumably so that the common sense bypass operation they had can be deemed as success and they don't have to take responsibilty for anything they do as long they we following the rules/law.

The latest classic full circle is the "teachers now allowed to use reasonable force" to keep pupils under control. Not that long ago the policy was "you can't touch 'em"

The police arrest somone for wheeling a motorbike along with the owners permission cos he is pi5hed ( not the owner) and stop him making the thing secure and it gets nicked. Basically the cops says its "policy" to stop the guy doing anything after he has been arrested!! In this particular situation coomojn sense has gone out of the window.


SPEED DOES NOT KILL, accidents do, the only "safe" speed is zero. Speed has a link to the consequences of the accident.

100 down a foggy road is "safe" until you have an accident. Driving at 10 MPH on a foggy road DOES NOT remove the possibility of an accident, merely reduces the consequences.

Nurse, Nurse, time for me medication!

Ray.

[Rushjob]

The police arrest somone for wheeling a motorbike along with the owners permission cos he is pi5hed ( not the owner) and stop him making the thing secure and it gets nicked. Basically the cops says its "policy" to stop the guy doing anything after he has been arrested!! In this particular situation coomojn sense has gone out of the window.

So they are supposed to hitch up a bike trailer and take it in with him are they?
Get real.
The lack of common sense was when the individual decided to be in charge of a bike when over the limit.
Mind you, I suppose you would know exactly what to do in every circumstance and would never get anything wrong.
Could I ask you to publish your mobile number, then every time a Cop has a decision to make, they can give you a call thereby getting it right every time.
In the words of Billy Connoly, " Don't tell me how tae do my job.... do I come to your works and tell you how tae sweep up? "
;)

[HW]

There is a big difference between "hitching up a bike trailer and take it with him" and allowing the guy to secure it and hopefully prevent a theft.

You wouldn't expect an arresting officer to stop you closing and locking the door of your house would you? Same principle in my opinion.

Personally, I think that it is not unreasonable that if the police wish to "take you into custody" then then assume responsibility not only for you and your safety but also the safety of any property you were carrying or were in charge of at the time.

Anyway, that's my opinion - which I am entitled to (I think I still am entitled to it, for the moment)

[Rushjob]

Personally, I think that it is not unreasonable that if the police wish to "take you into custody" then then assume responsibility not only for you and your safety but also the safety of any property you were carrying or were in charge of at the time.

If it is within the guidelines of personal property - bags, goods & possessions in your pockets - yes.
As for vehicles or contents that can't easily or safely be carried - no.
They will be left parked & safe, locked if possible depending on the condition of the vehicle but we take no responsibility for loss etc.
Remember, the driver has been arrested.
Simple - don't wan't to be placed in that situation??
Don't get yourself arrested!
As for opinions... we're all allowed them and that works both ways!


Edited cos I put the wrong quote in.....

[Edited on 21-10-2005 by Rushjob]

[madmav]

I have 5 mates who i have grown up with !

they are police officers

3 guys are bikers

1 guy is a DCI

and the other nicked his old man for beating the crap out of his mom!

which one would i trust?

answer all of them !:smug:

why?

because they are my mates!
simple we all have a job to do!:D

[bradders]

Originally posted by Rushjob
Don't get yourself arrested!

is it that easy...so one ever gets falsley arrested?