Number of riders on track at any one time

[JPM]

Been thinking about this all day, yesterday myself and Lily, Urban996 and a few other DSC peeps were at Silverstone doing the GP circuit. As many of you will know SS is a big wide fast circuit, and long to boot (3.6 miles???)

So because of these factors there are up to and were 72 riders out on track in each session plus instructors, this didn't seem to bad for the most part but if there's a slow rider in front we were finding that people were queuing up to get past, towards the end of the day I was in a group of 20 riders battling for any free tarmac there was, no racing lines or apexes hit, pretty much carnage really, something I would think would and should be left for racing and first corner missions.

These issues were raised with the organiser (Hottrax) but nothing really improved, there were a lot of off's yesterday, mainly the fast group but it was also noted that Saturdays sold out trackday at SS again with Hottrax was near on perfect, plenty of free track and hardly any offs.

Now if I compare with say Oulton, Donny etc which is say 2.5 miles long with 40 riders on track in each session, how can SS warrant an extra 30 riders per session?

Surely better policing and less numbers would aid this problem, but I am guessing that would drag the price up also.

Any comments? WJB?

[dickieducati]

the worst track session i ever had was at silverstone when there were as you said loads of people piled up behind a couple of slower riders. all the other sessions were fine as everyone was fairly well spread out. in future i would just come into the pits run through them ang rejoin giving the log jam a chance to get out of my way.

[antonye]

Originally posted by dickieducati
in future i would just come into the pits run through them ang rejoin giving the log jam a chance to get out of my way.

Get past you, you mean?

[dickieducati]

oh the shame of it ! :(

[MJS]

It wasn't me holding people up... I was too busy on the grass to get in anyone's way :lol::lol:

Have to agree though, there were a lot of riders out there...

[antonye]

That sounds like a hell of a lot of riders. I know that some circuits are huge and can take all those, but as you say it's when you get the odd one or two that slow everyone down and causes everyone else to bunch.

Surely the trackday organisers should be sorting this out and drop them down a group?

[NBs996]

I had the same issue at SS with a different TDO. 70 riders on the circuit.

In theory it's not a problem, it's less riders pro rata than 35 at Cadwell, but there was the issue of riders bunching up in big groups and also too many for the instructors to properly police.

I now prefer to use No Limits who are reputed for putting less bikes out, and there seems to be a good compromise between group size and price.

[Edited on 20-6-2005 by NBs996]

[tgl425]

Blimey was it that many per session? I counted 50 lined up just before I went out for one session and I thought that was a lot.

Being one of the slower riders (1st time at SS and 1st time in the inters) I was trying not to get in the way and trying a bit too hard sometimes as you and Lily saw when I err missed my braking point into priory!!!

I had a great day despite the numbers on track which I think was diluted by the size of the track but perhaps felt more by you fast boys (and girls)?

Glenn
ps I can verify Urban996's efforts to get out of the way witnessing several off-track excursions!!
pps Nice to meet you and Lily !!



:o:o

[MJS]

Originally posted by tgl425

ps I can verify Urban996's efforts to get out of the way witnessing several off-track excursions!!
pps Nice to meet you and Lily !!



:o:o

Several? A bit harsh there Glenn.... I counted 2... ok so it was the same corner...:frog:

On the plus side, it was my first time in Inters as well and after a difficult first session I came away feeling pleased with progress.

Nice to meet everyone though... :cool:

[JPM]

Originally posted by tgl425
Blimey was it that many per session? I counted 50 lined up just before I went out for one session and I thought that was a lot.

Being one of the slower riders (1st time at SS and 1st time in the inters) I was trying not to get in the way and trying a bit too hard sometimes as you and Lily saw when I err missed my braking point into priory!!!

I had a great day despite the numbers on track which I think was diluted by the size of the track but perhaps felt more by you fast boys (and girls)?

Glenn
ps I can verify Urban996's efforts to get out of the way witnessing several off-track excursions!!
pps Nice to meet you and Lily !!



:o:o

I thought you were doing a Rossi mate with that foot out :lol: and I was going to be Sete!!! :o

Good day though! and we all stayed pretty much upright

[tgl425]

Sorry.....Several was too harsh.......you were going very well

it was me that had 'several' moments mostly running wide and I also had a very difficult first session learning the track and being past by 71 other people.......I got better towards the end of the day though? I think!

[MJS]

Originally posted by tgl425
Sorry.....Several was too harsh.......you were going very well

it was me that had 'several' moments mostly running wide and I also had a very difficult first session learning the track and being past by 71 other people.......I got better towards the end of the day though? I think!

It was a cracking day and we all went home safe, no complaints from me :cool:

[Lily]

It was indeed a good day, if a little on the warm side, especially when it came to removing leathers :(

Found it quite a hard track to pick braking points and stuffed up a fair few laps from braking too early.

Witnessed one or two excursions by my fellow ducati riders which was amusing :D

Very tiring track though and my late afternoon snooze helped my last session where it actually felt like a race we were having to get past so many folks in a group, but on a plus side I managed to get past (even JPM held up in traffic :D ) so I guess my politeness is slowly going!

[WeeJohnyB]

Quote "Any comments? WJB?"

Yes, lots of them. I speak with marshals, paramedics, circuit management and riders on a near weekly basis and I form my own personal view and try to be as objective as possible in comparing what is offered by the track day companies.

Suffice to say I personally would prefer to run BELOW the circuit limit for a number of reasons, namely, it's safer, there are less offs and less red flags, there is greater scope to move people around the groups if they are too fast or too slow, there is less bunching at corners so riders enjoy more track space and can get a decent lap in and enjoy more track time. I don't think anyone could argue with that logic - if there were 5 riders out there, there would be less offs than if you had 100 out there.

Tracks are expensive to hire. There is healthy choice in the marketplace with different business models/customer offers from the track day companies. Those that sell cheap and/or have higher costs are under more pressure to fill the day to make any money, no secret there, it's basic maths and common business sense.

Compare and contrast Oulton to Mallory. Please correct me if my memory is incorrect, but Oulton is nearly 3 miles long and has a sensible limit of 40 bikes. Mallory is a fabulous little circuit, but it's not unknown for track day companies to put 40 bikes out on track. Work it out for yourself.

Thankfully we have lots of choice in which track day company or school to use and they all have their plus and minus points - just like you can shop at Kwiksave or Marks & Spencer, we all have our favourites and loyal customers and thankfully each persons needs and perceptions of what constitutes a quality trackday vary from individual to individual - one persons hate is anothers love.

Long live freedom of choice, long live competition.

WeeJohnyB
Now WeeMrsB, pass the M&S Chardonnay and 'specially selected' strawberries please ;)

[JPM]

I agree with your comments 100% WJB, but for me and probably most others it's about flexibility and times/dates that suit each person, I did something like 3 days with you guys last year, and this year I only have one booked simply because the dates you have don't fall into dates I can do, which is unfortunate as if I was going to give my hard earned to any TD company it would be No Limits.

So I and I guess most others, especially the likes of DD riders trying to get some track time just before a race date take what they can do, which is the unfortunate nature of the beast, and can mean using a company they might have no experience of, on the other hand there are one or two TD companies I'll never use again simply because of their attitude and organisation.

[antonye]

Agree with JPM on this one - it really is down to getting practise in at the right tracks at the right time rather than picking which company I would be going with, mainly because of racing. In previous years on trackdays though I would pick by company then date, as I could fit round their schedule.

Previously I've used 100% and their setup is really good. They used to run a whole load of dates at Snetterton, almost like it was exclusively theirs, but they didn't have hardly a single date there this year.

So far this year it has been two trackdays with Focused Events (Brands & Snett), as these have suited the dates and tracks that I wanted. Again, these guys operate a sensible policy and I'll be happy to go back with them.

[MJS]

I did Silverstone GP with 100% earlier in the year and the group sizes were pretty much the same, as WJB says, it's an expensive circuit and they need to put a lot of people out there to make it pay.
I did think however that 100%'s organisation was slightly better, riders were let out in a more controlled manner at the start of each session, whereas it was a bit more of a free for all on Sunday

[skidlids]

And there is mmyself and a couple of mates trying to arrange a trackday at Pembrey on Monday Aug 8th for which we need 32 riders, thats not 32 per group, thats 32 across 3 groups plus the instructors. Although we are not limited to this number a few more would fit in but we would like to limit it to a max of 15 per group plus instructors.
Cost is £120 per person which is probably a tad more than normal but at least you get some track space on a track where laps in the fast group will probably be between 1min 04secs and 1min 12secs.
Last track training day we ran at Landow had on average 11 per group with two group leaders at £65 each it was good value especially for those doing their first ever trackday.

[Ray]

A lot can depend on the punters that turn up. Some days can be more manic than others due to the date, weekday or weekend and if there is a race meet coming up.

This can also have an effect on the average lap times of any given group.

The length an width of the circuit is a big factor IMHO. Silverstone GP is capable of swallowing 70 bikes in one session thats, less bikes per mile than 40 at say mallory, but it does depend on so many aother variables, e.g how the bikes are released on to the circuit, the type of punters, and so on.

I seem to remember this sort of debate before about the Silverstone GP circuit.

If you really wanna have day a where you can call the shots just hire the whole circuit yerself!!:o:o:o

Better still do what Klaus Zwart did buy/build yer own.

Ray

[Quickshifter]

We run higher numbers than normal and our injury rate is lower than most. Try PACE.

[Mr_S]

You can hire Castle Combe for £6K / day, but your only allowed 13 riders out at any one time because of the noise limits

So at £100 each, that's 5 groups

Goodwood's £12K, and 5 vehicles at a time

Both are 105dB.


Pit lane marshall at Cadwell was telling me last week that ESS holds their record for fallers in a single day......:devil:

[Wylie1]

I've been on a couple of SPORTS days + 1 PACE with ESS & only had one session red flagged.

The only time I noticed higher numbers of riders on track was on one of the SPORTS days at Brands Indy. After ESS had riders times, they changed the groups around a bit & later sessions were much better as riders speeds were more similar.

I'm going on another PACE day in a couple of weeks at Brands. I really rate them for what that's worth :puzzled: Keep up the good work Tony (quickshifter).

[Edited on 1-7-2005 by Wylie1]

[Monty]

It cost's £25,000 to hire Brands GP for the day and £11, 250 for the Indy-this is + Vat. You can do the maths yourself to work out why trackdays there are expensive.........
As a comparison Oulton would be £10,750 + vat and Cadwell £5,775 + vat-these are all for midweek dates between April and October. Dates at Oulton are virtually impossible to get as they are only allowed one bike event a week-this includes racing so track time is very scarce.

John

[Jon]

Originally posted by Wylie1
I've been on a couple of SPORTS days + 1 PACE with ESS & only had one session red flagged.

The only time I noticed higher numbers of riders on track was on one of the SPORTS days at Brands Indy. After ESS had riders times, they changed the groups around a bit & later sessions were much better as riders speeds were more similar.

I'm going on another PACE day in a couple of weeks at Brands. I really rate them for what that's worth :puzzled: Keep up the good work Tony (quickshifter).

[Edited on 1-7-2005 by Wylie1]


Thats ok if it is dry all day, but it falls to pieces if you get a wet sessions in the morning.

[Wylie1]

Originally posted by Jon
Originally posted by Wylie1
I've been on a couple of SPORTS days + 1 PACE with ESS & only had one session red flagged.

The only time I noticed higher numbers of riders on track was on one of the SPORTS days at Brands Indy. After ESS had riders times, they changed the groups around a bit & later sessions were much better as riders speeds were more similar.

I'm going on another PACE day in a couple of weeks at Brands. I really rate them for what that's worth :puzzled: Keep up the good work Tony (quickshifter).

[Edited on 1-7-2005 by Wylie1]


Thats ok if it is dry all day, but it falls to pieces if you get a wet sessions in the morning.

The 1st SPORTS day I went on last year was wet in the morning & it didn't fall to pieces (well, not that I noticed anyway). That was my 1st experience of ESS & I was impressed enough to book with them again.

[matboyslim]

BTW JPM just been told by a mate with a monster that he has been told 192 have been booked in on monday, so if thats right and my math is up to speed thats 48 per group plus dibble in another to make up the numbers!:o

[Jon]

Not such luck for me Wylie, I missed the first session due to be too slow at changing wheels over. Went out in the 2nd session (wet) and took it easy trying to find my feet, This was the first time with wets for me. Went out on the 3rd and final session of the morning ( bucketing it down) but I went quicker and started to really build up my convidence. Durring lunch I found that I had been placed at the back end of the inters group. No problem there I thought because this is all based on times. As soon as the 4th session started and it was still wet I realised that all was not well. Not a full grid and some very slow riders too. I missed the 5th session, again changing wheels. Went out in the 6th session(dry) and the difference in times was very apparent. I actually lapped a guy I could not get a clear lap togeather because of the nature of the circuit (Brands indy) you are always coming up behind guys that are slower in corners. It was much the same in the final session. The irony of it is, how could the instructor keep an eye on me and the others in our group, if I'm at one end of the circuit and they at another. The other frustrating part was having to wait behind the instructor untill he waved you through.

[Edited on 2-7-2005 by Jon]

[Tabby999r]

JPM you have a U2U.:):cool: