Advice on 851s

[Tim Hall]

I'm looking for any advice on buying an 851. e.g. what to look for , what to look out for, do's and don'ts, pro's and con's. What are spares like to get ? What money to pay etc
Any advice welcome really. thanks

Tim

[Jasper]

get a 888 or 851SP1,2 or 3!I have had 851's and 888's and you really notice the difference those 37cc's make.Any particular model you looking at?

[Tim Hall]

:puzzled:
Hi Jasper - I want a useable, affordable model that I can use on the road and track - which do you recommend?

Tim

[Jasper]

What do you consider to be affordable?It depends if you are Bill Gates,an MD or Joe Bloggs with wife and two kids(like me!).This will certainly affect your choice as will whether you want a more exclusive version or not.

[Tim Hall]

I'm thinking in the region of 5 to £6k. I'm more road than track biassed and typicaly do 6k miles a year - so anything that is not going to break the bank ( I'm not Bill Gates).

[Nattyboy]

Blimey Tim..that will buy you a very tidy motor !

To be different you could go for a tidy 851SP3 (thats assuming you can find one - think Forza Italia might still have one), but if your ridings road biased why not look around for a tidy 888 strada and spend a couple of grand doing some saucy mods to it ?

Good luck
Nat

[Redsps]

Having had several of the 851/888 flavour bikes, and still with a T8 ,I think your're best bet would be to go for an 888 strada in as best original condition as possible, 851 strada's are good, but the T8's have some refined items.
Decent SP's versions of either model wil be a tad more expensive, and prices are not dropping either.


ta ta
robin

[Edited on 28-7-2005 by Red SPS]

[weeveetwin]

Hi Tim

Go for the 888 Strada if you're going to be doing mainly road riding. The SP is a fantastic riding experience, but not as practical a bike. The engine/gearing combination is more suited to the track really - it needs much more clutch slip to move off from a standstill, and its top gear is actually lower than the Strada's, so its engine feels more hurried on the motorway. Moreover, the mid range grunt of the Strada (with race cans fitted) makes for a more relaxing ride. So too does the slow steering and relative stability. (Its cold start 'choke' device is a bonus too!)

The SP is always snarling and wanting to race through the revs, and it's extremely quick steering by comparison. It feels a much lighter, more 'flighty' bike, and it's much less civilised.

Steve

[Douglas851]

What makes an SP feel noticably lighter and more flighty than a Strada? I have always thought that an SP is basically a Strada with better suspension and a higher spec motor, and not a lot more.

[Jasper]

The character of the engines makes a big difference.My SP5 is really a pig below 3000,happier above 6000 and prefers to be in the 8000+range.This alters the whole riding experience.The Sp's are not as "relaxed" as the stradas.Depends what you want,but i wouldn't swap mine for the world.

[weeveetwin]

Hi Douglas

The SP's frame has a steeper steering head angle, and this makes it much quicker/easier to turn and a good deal more lively. It feels almost as lively as the Suzuki GSXR750WT I once owned (and that bike was infamous for its 'chuckability'). Moreover, the SP weighs over 30lb less than the Strada, and this is immediately noticeable. (that's like removing 15 bags of sugar from the pillion!)

The SP feels a much smaller machine really. Ridden back-to-back, it's hard to know they're the same bike!

[Douglas851]

Ah, now it gets interesting!

According to the official manual the head angle is the same for both the Strada and SP, 24.5 degrees. The wheelbase is also the same, which suggests the same head angle.
However, the manual also suggests that the SP forks are shorter, which would have the same effect as changing the head angle.

The same manual quotes a 30lb difference.
The differences are front mudguard, 1 lb, discs 2 lb, exhausts and hangers 8 lb leaving 19 lb to be made up from the rear subframe and suspension? I think some creative weight loss has been applied.

[philthy]

Jaspers comments are valid.

I went from 8 valve Golf GTI to 16 valve. The 8 valve was by far the better engine. More is not always better.

Have only ridden the 851 and love the low down power delivery. Am told that 888 & SP power is higher up the rev range, so if you like to ride at higher revs that may be the way to go.

3 grand or so would buy a tidy 851 and leave you plenty of dosh for servicing & running costs, and maybe a Maxton / Ohlins or similar suspension conversion & other extras.

[phil_h]

Well, I know I'm not really allowed to contribute, as I only have the chassis of an 851sp ... but ...
1) I don't find the steering at all 'flighty', and louigi has jacked it up too. It's more precise and gives more feel than an SS for instance, and certainly has more feel than a 748 with a 60-profile front.
2) Weight - remember that a lot of sp's have alloy tanks and special wheels - both of which show up on the scales and when riding - you''ll not believe how much better an alloy tank makes a bike feel as you're throwing it from side to side unless you've changed the tank yourself and felt the before and after. (the beast is of course so light it will make any real 851 feel lardy ;) )

ps
at the moment, I'm enjoying riding the beast more than the 748 (see other threads re 45mm pipes/cans) so may end up _having_ to change the 748 for a nice 851 strada in my search for the ultimate midrange grunter that doesnt throw your licence away :saint:

[Douglas851]

What does make a difference is setting the suspension up properly. Be it an SP or a humble Strada. It can be the difference between a bike that feels awful and one that can match most modern bikes in handling terms.

As standard both bikes are over sprung, the Strada especially. Get in contact with Maxton to find the best setup in terms of springing and damping.

With the help of ProTwins I went the HyperPro route with a HyperPro shock and replacement front springs. The difference was unbelievable compared with the previous standard setup. The bike was more comfortable, would hold its line better round corners and tipped in far quicker and with much greater precision. It also helped to raise the forks about 15mm through the yokes. My next change will be to see if adding rear ride height improves the "flickability", not so much for the road where it is fine but for track use where high speed corners need a lot of effort.

Tyres also make a difference..................

[weeveetwin]

Hi guys

Douglas...

Regarding the steering: There has been so much misinformation printed in various 888 manuals that it's hard to keep track. You may well be be right about the head angle! However, my own 'official' workshop manual gives the amount of trail (which is essentially what slows or quickens the steering) on the 888SP4/SPS as 94mm, whilst the trail quoted for the Strada is 100mm. This is probably what speeds up the steering so much. Moreover, the rear suspension on the SP is fully adjustable for height etc. so its height setting is sure to play a part.

****** It's interesting to note that the head angle adjustment allowed on the 916 frame gives from 94 - 100mm of trail too. Has anyone adjusted theirs to its extremes and noted the difference? ******

Regarding the lower weight of the SP: In addition to the components you mention, there is 12lbs difference in the weight of the rear sub-frame - when tallied with all the associated hardware needed for pillion accomodation on the Strada (grab-handles & bracketry etc). Pillion pegs are discarded too on the SP. I'd assume the Ohlins forks and rear shock/fulcrum to be worth a few lb in saved weight too. (and don't forget the CF rear hugger!!)
I do know that the main frame of the SP is made from ChromeMoly and weighs in at only 13lb. I'm not sure if the Strada's frame is the same. (source, Alex Ortner) (By comparison, the standard 916 frame weighs approx 23lb)

Lies, damn lies and statistics!! Whatever might be the case with the above, I know from experience that the SP is waaay lighter/quicker steering than the Strada. The difference is noticeable even whilst pushing the bike around the garage! Ride both bikes back-to-back and you'll be shocked.


Philthy...

Neither the 888 Strada nor the SP are 'peaky' machines. They both have plenty of low down grunt. But when comparing one with the other, the Strada has the better (more immediate) low/mid-range response.



Phil...

When I call the SP 'flighty' I mean by comparison with the Strada - which is far harder to deflect from its chosen line. The SP can be flicked around with half the effort.

Steve

[Edited on 30-7-2005 by weeveetwin]

[phil_h]

Originally posted by weeveetwin
Phil...

When I call the SP 'flighty' I mean by comparison with the Strada - which is far harder to deflect from its chosen line. The SP can be flicked around with half the effort.

Steve

[Edited on 30-7-2005 by weeveetwin]

OH NO !
Another plan shot down in flames :sniff:
I never got to ride a late-851/888 cos the early ones didnt let my knees fit behind the fairing (NOTE for Tim !!!)
I just assumed they could all be set up to turn as well as the beast.

Tim - the early SP frames are easy to spot cos the front 'bend' by the front of the tank is a welded join on the sp and a bend on the strada.
(If you want to know more about the engines try the moto-one site.)

[BDG]

Tim, don't know where in the country you are but last time i was in Woods Motorcycles, Aberegele in North Wales i think they had a strada in. 01745 822922.

[Tim Hall]

HI guys - thanks for all the advice- ;) I'll just have to wait for the right one - does anyone know of any other 851/888s for sale? ( I'll try wales - thx BDG)
cheers
Tim

[Redsps]

saw an sp2 for sale last week in a private add, looked pretty good aswell, totally original bike with one owner from new,was up for £5700.00, was really tempted.
But the SPS costs are dictating otherwise at present,I'll see if it's still for sale mate.

cheer
robin