Maybe time for a change

[skidlids]

I have been riding the same Supersport based DD bike since the start of the series in 2005, over that time it has developed from a basic 583 to a slightly more developed 620.
Back in 2004 when I purchased the SS I had never owned a Monster. in the 9 years since then I have owned several Monster and ride the road ones I currently own more than any of my other bikes.
At the end of 2011 I bought a incomplete but running 620 Monster off Steve Mason with the intention of turning it into a DD bike for myself.

Well at last the work has started with help from Dallas.
Below is a pic of the start of what will be project 1

Project 2 will be similar as in it will be another race bike, likely to be a 620 although it could just as easily be a 800

and Project 3 will be a road going Version with 1100 EVO engine, Ohlins forks, lightweight tank etc etc

[banger san]

Well at last the work has started with help from Dallas.
Below is a pic of the start of what will be project 1


Ready for Anglesey? :lol:

[skidlids]

Ready for Anglesey? :lol:

Could be just got to nip over to Benson in a few hours time when everyone's a sleep and grab an exhaust and a few other bits :p

[bally71]

For a minute then i thought you where going to suggest a move to 696's .. phew

build thread ... build thread ... build thread *chants*

[Spjallen]

Looking good. Enjoy the project and paint it blue!

[skidlids]

Slowly Progressing, be nice to get out on it before the end of the year, quite fancy taking it to the Pembrey test day

[bally71]

Looking sweet Kev

Love the look of that tail unit and the 916 tank

[bally71]

you gonna go for a full fairing or keep it naked?

[skidlids]

you gonna go for a full fairing or keep it naked?

916 Nose cone on this one and the 1100 road/trackday version will have a 900SSie half fairing

Since taking the pic the bike has now grown a set of calipers, throttle, grips and a start switch

Mastercylinder and front hoses next

[bally71]

Have you ever heard of these guys

www.radicalducati.com

some nice inspirations on there

[bradders]

Having ridden Phils with the 916 tank I'm a convert: easy to get round than an SS but still tuck right in and use your knees on the tank (which is tough on a monster)

I love the idea of a 1100s engined, ohlins shod road bike built with 916 tank, clip ons and desmo bodywork.

[Campo]

Have you ever heard of these guys

www.radicalducati.com

some nice inspirations on there
I watched a couple of their vids on you tube a while back. They do do some real nice bikes.

[skidlids]

916 Nose cone on this one

Since taking the pic the bike has now grown a set of calipers, throttle, grips and a start switch

Mastercylinder and front hoses next

Bit more Progress

[vespa]

I will try this on Wed at Castle Combe.
It is a convertible SuperTwin/Streetfighter
based on a 900ssie donor with 804 engine.:roll:

13604

[skidlids]

I will try this on Wed at Castle Combe.
It is a convertible SuperTwin/Streetfighter
based on a 900ssie donor with 804 engine.:roll:

13604


Castle Combe will explain the standard exhaust, only chance of getting it through noise testing.

Got to decide what to do with the forks in mine

I have hopefully sorted out the Cartridge fork conversion Dallas tried twice last year with dismal results, now that the internals are in the correct externals they should work.

But also building up a set using 996 internals in 750SSie Dark Outers with 1000SS fork caps

Trouble is both sets are a good 40mm longer than the adjustable Monster S4 forks currently in it, so I may have to have a lot protruding above the top yoke and run 54mm clipons

[bally71]

I will try this on Wed at Castle Combe.
It is a convertible SuperTwin/Streetfighter
based on a 900ssie donor with 804 engine.:roll:

13604


I've got a nice pair of high level pipes for that if you where interested

[vespa]

I've got a nice pair of high level pipes for that if you where interested
PMS
thanks

[bally71]

Castle Combe will explain the standard exhaust, only chance of getting it through noise testing.

Got to decide what to do with the forks in mine

I have hopefully sorted out the Cartridge fork conversion Dallas tried twice last year with dismal results, now that the internals are in the correct externals they should work.

But also building up a set using 996 internals in 750SSie Dark Outers with 1000SS fork caps

Trouble is both sets are a good 40mm longer than the adjustable Monster S4 forks currently in it, so I may have to have a lot protruding above the top yoke and run 54mm clipons

what's the advantage with the 996 internals?

And wouldn't they be better off in 996 forks? :lol:

[skidlids]

what's the advantage with the 996 internals?


They are intended for a Sports bike unlike the internals in ST and Monster S4 forks


And wouldn't they be better off in 996 forks? :lol:

Not when you see the state of the outside of the 996 forks, the braided hoses had rubbed through the anodising and then the corrosion set in, talk about scabby, those parts will be heading for the skip. Mind you it did make them very cheap.
Besides my 996 has already had its forks upgraded, re-anodised, Ti coated and billet lowers with 40mm mount for the 6-pot Calipers

[skidlids]

I'm not the first to do it by a long way, Chaz has been doing the fork conversion for a few years now and Tom Roberts and Simon Allen have had theirs done,
But when searching for more info on it I came across this
http://www.ducatisuite.com/monstersbkforks.html

And there are few mentions of it in the DSC archives

[bally71]

Suspension scares me .. the thought of taking forks apart makes me positively poo my pants :lol:

[skidlids]

I first started pulling forks apart in 1980 to convert my 400/4 to a twin disc front end with better calipers, so i used the lowers from an XS250

one bike I wish i still had

[skidlids]

But also building up a set using 996 internals in 750SSie Dark Outers with 1000SS fork caps


Be nice if someone hadn't already botched the 996 internals

[bally71]

The cap looks ok .... might make a nice paperweight

[skidlids]

The cap looks ok .... might make a nice paperweight

Caps no good for a DD bike as its to big

Forks are now all assembled, just need to add oil, set the appropriate air gap and see how the after market seals hold out

[skidlids]

Not a lot of Progress of late

Just modified the 748 tank, fitted the pump and plumbed in the fuel connections.
Also did a bit of prep ready for the lock wiring

Hopefully tomorrow Dallas will weld on a couple more brackets for me so I can make a battery mount and then I can crack on with the electrics

Photos may be of use to Roxy

[PHIL-THE-DRILL]

Looks good Kev how about streetfighe r style like mine ?

[mark 999]

Not a lot of Progress of late

Just modified the 748 tank, fitted the pump and plumbed in the fuel connections.
Also did a bit of prep ready for the lock wiring

Hopefully tomorrow Dallas will weld on a couple more brackets for me so I can make a battery mount and then I can crack on with the electrics

Photos may be of use to Roxy

They are indeed of use !

I've just about got all the bits ready for the project, although I've no idea where the battery is going to go ! :lol:

[skidlids]

although I've no idea where the battery is going to go ! :lol:

Here's a clue

[Spjallen]

Yes Chaz did my forks and I've had no real issues with them ( sensible money for the work too) it gave me the adjustabilty I was after. Serviced them this year and changed to a slighly heavier fork oil which I prefer - 5w to 7.5w. A job worth doing.

[mark 999]

Here's a clue

Oooh, that solves a bit of head scratching !

Get ready for more questions at Pembrey !:(

[skidlids]

Started on the wiring today but had to order a few bits from Simtek so now I have to wait for them to arrive before I can wire in the Injectors, fuel pump etc.
Did think about wiring a Power Commander in directly but may go with a Rapid Bike3 unit

[skidlids]

Still waiting for connectors and wire to arrive but in the mean time I thought I would cut down on some of the wiring, This ECU connector just about has all I need for the the bike to run

[bally71]

Still waiting for connectors and wire to arrive but in the mean time I thought I would cut down on some of the wiring, This ECU connector just about has all I need for the the bike to run

SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!

[skidlids]

SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!!

The other ECU connector is a different story, needing at least 15 wires coming out of it

[bally71]

The other ECU connector is a different story, needing at least 15 wires coming out of it

:lol:

[skidlids]

Connectors arrived from Simtek today, enough for the first two harnesses which will sort out mine and Dallas's DD bikes, then there will be the more complicated one for the road legal version with the 1100 EVO engine. This may have to have a few more wires.

Thankfully I have just finished trimming down the Harness for Dave Marston's dads 620 Monster, the ex Trouty bike

Be nice when the DD project is running and ready for the track as I have 5 shocks to test, 2 X Penske, 1 X Nitron and 2 X Ohlins, of which 4 are modified from other bikes.

In reality its all a bit of a playground with my toys strewn all over the place, but good fun

[skidlids]

Meanwhile a couple of miles away, someone else is busy building their DD bike

[Spjallen]

Great news!

[skidlids]

Wiring - seems to take forever then you have little to show for it.

Still at least it stayed dry for a couple of hours

[skidlids]

Another couple of hours wiring today, so both coils and both injectors are now wired along with the engine Temp sensor, Fuel Pump, Start Solenoid, Injection Relay and handlebar switch gear.
The Run button controls the Injection relay and pressing the start button brings in the starter solinoid.
Wires are also in for the Neutral and oil pressure LEDs and also the temp gauge and tacho.

Still have to add wires to the ECU connector for MAP/Air temp sensor but apart from that there's not much else to do apart from switched feeds for the direct powered transponder and lap timer and the charging system

Still trying to decide with which Reg/Rec to go with

[skidlids]

always a good sign when they start first push of the button, despite the lack of exhaust, engine temp sensor, air temp and pressure sensor :)

[bally71]

Bet the neighbours love you

[skidlids]

Bet the neighbours love you

Doubt if its a problem as nobody could hear the bike above the neighbours stereo or their lad racing around the streets on his Minimoto

[skidlids]

Just swapped the Shock, Ohlins with remote reservoir out and Ohlins with piggyback reservoir and adjustable length in

[bally71]

I found raising the rear by a couple of mil made a massive difference to the ss ..

Is the fork angle / height on the monster the same as the ss?

[skidlids]

Fork offset on the later Monsters is the same as the SS (unlike the early monsters).
Rake (Fork angle) I haven't checked to see what is standard but set mine using front and rear ride height to get what I want, which is a lot easier to do on a Monster than a SS

[Spjallen]

How much did you raise the rear by and what did you feel?

[mat2hew]

How much did you raise the rear by and what did you feel?

as you know, I've got Deans old Maxton shock which is 5mm longer than standard with another 15mm of adjustment, I have tested it on a track day and now have it wound it fully out, this has raised the rear by 28mm at the seat, I have also raised the front by 10mm for more ground clearance.

I find that I now feel much more in touch with the front tyre, I can push more weight onto the front in corners allowing me to keep a higher mid corner speed, beforehand I felt that the front tyre was on the limit of grip and all the weight was sat back on the rear, which pushes you wide mid corner making you throttle off to pull it back in.

that's about where I'm at at the moment.

I'm still not sure why I'm so slow at the moment but I'm hoping that this will have helped.

[bradders]

Its in yer head Matt, simple. Have a good session of balls out and back to the froont you'll be...too much natural corner speed not to be

[mat2hew]

Its in yer head Matt, simple. Have a good session of balls out and back to the froont you'll be...too much natural corner speed not to be


I understood the first bit, agree with the second bit, whats the third bit mean?

[bally71]

How much did you raise the rear by and what did you feel?

Theres 12mm of adjustment on the ohlins .. I uncreased the length by about 4mm to try and found it just about right so left it at that

the front forks are at standard height

Puts more weight on the front quickens the steering .. drops into corners a lot easier and the front feels a lot more planted

[bally71]

as you know, I've got Deans old Maxton shock which is 5mm longer than standard with another 15mm of adjustment, I have tested it on a track day and now have it wound it fully out, this has raised the rear by 28mm at the seat, I have also raised the front by 10mm for more ground clearance.

I find that I now feel much more in touch with the front tyre, I can push more weight onto the front in corners allowing me to keep a higher mid corner speed, beforehand I felt that the front tyre was on the limit of grip and all the weight was sat back on the rear, which pushes you wide mid corner making you throttle off to pull it back in.

that's about where I'm at at the moment.

I'm still not sure why I'm so slow at the moment but I'm hoping that this will have helped.


Thats pretty extreme

[bally71]

I understood the first bit, agree with the second bit, whats the third bit mean?

One too many shandies? :lol:

[mat2hew]

in my honest opinion though, I've been about bikes for over 20 years, probably the first 15 of those I didn't know my arse from elbow. But the things I've learned since I started racing... what I never learned was how to be fast... I always was.

for years I'd been watching people paying suspension 'experts' money to click a few nobs and turn a few screws and thought it was a load bollox. until one day a friend wasted his money and said it was so good he'd pay for the bloke to look at my fireblade, it was amazing, I couldn't believe how much better it was.

the first couple of rounds this year I thought it was me, not pushing, being careful and being out of practice. I have drawn on my years of experience and decided that a lot of my lost speed is my new bike a bit this year is not set up properly, maybe the bike makes more difference than I previously believed.

[bradders]

Not as experienced at racing, but it made a world of difference to me. To the point of I started taking liberties a little, and a couple of visits to the med centre, but all driven by confidence in the bike working so well under me.

SS very different to a monster chassis too imo having ridden both

[bally71]

Spent my first couple of years on stock suspension .. all it did was wreck my confidence in the front end .. the standard ss springs are awful and every time i started to push a bit i ended up on my arse.

That said i've raced with guys who can seemingly jump on any old pile and still go fast.

The one thing i can say for certain tho is that there's not that big a difference between the front riders and mid pack in DD .. I was running at the pointy end at oulton (3rd) and donny (4th) after the crash at cadwell on the sat i only buttoned it off a little bit for the races on the sunday but was fighting for 16th

[bally71]

I have drawn on and decided that a lot of my lost speed is my new bike a bit this year is not set up properly, maybe the bike makes more difference than I previously believed.

If you believe it .. it's true

*legs crossed sitting in a room of candles*

[skidlids]

as you know, I've got Deans old Maxton shock which is 5mm longer than standard with another 15mm of adjustment, I have tested it on a track day and now have it wound it fully out, this has raised the rear by 28mm at the seat, I have also raised the front by 10mm for more ground clearance.


Like I said to you in the Cadwell collecting area your bike was to low at the back

Standard shock length for Deans bike was 330mm so 5mm longer takes it up to the length of a SSie shock at 335mm. Adding 15mm to take it to 350mm makes it the same length as Dallas use to run his Nitron at in his 600SS Class B bike that then became his 620 Class A bike

[mat2hew]

Like I said to you in the Cadwell collecting area your bike was to low at the back

Standard shock length for Deans bike was 330mm so 5mm longer takes it up to the length of a SSie shock at 335mm. Adding 15mm to take it to 350mm makes it the same length as Dallas use to run his Nitron at in his 600SS Class B bike that then became his 620 Class A bike

interesting.... obviously you can go too far, but does anyone know what happens when you do?

[antonye]

Best money I ever spent was sending the suspension away (to Racing Lines (http://racinglines.co.uk/)) and having the fork springs and shock spring changed, forks and shock serviced (new oil, seals, etc) and setup properly for my weight.

Everyone that rode it said it was the best handling bike they'd ever ridden!

It's amazing that some people still don't even change their suspension to see what effects they feel, let alone have them setup properly.

[mat2hew]

I sent my class b bike off to race-lab (http://www.racelab.co.uk/) and it was awesome, my class A bike HM racing (http://www.hmracing.co.uk/) rebuilt and sprung my shock, but no set up, I did it my self, probably not very well though.

for my new class a bike I kept the forks from my old bike and used the std road shock which didn't work for me, my new shock is pretty cool.

[ells]

Best money I ever spent was sending the suspension away (to Racing Lines (http://racinglines.co.uk/)) and having the fork springs and shock spring changed, forks and shock serviced (new oil, seals, etc) and setup properly for my weight.

Racing lines have done a lot of stuff for me this year. Great bunch of guys and hoping to get the bike back in there at the end of season to get the suspension sorted.

Mark
:)

[bradders]

You fall off

[mat2hew]

You fall off

when you accelerate you get weight transference to the rear which causes it to squat. I read somewhere years ago, that you also get 'anti-squat' caused by the torque of the engine pulling the chain against the rear sprocket which pulls the rear wheel forwards and pushes the swinging arm downwards, (have you ever noticed the rear of the bike lift up on the dyno) if you raise the rear ride height you change the angle of the swinging arm changing the squat and anti-squat. which may cause you to fall off so 10 out of 10 bradders..

just what i've read,,,, I know not what i'm talking about,,,, I should fit in the paddock quite well :)

[banger san]

[QUOTE=mat2hew]when you accelerate you get weight transference to the rear which causes it to squat. I read somewhere years ago, that you also get 'anti-squat' caused by the torque of the engine pulling the chain against the rear sprocket which pulls the rear wheel forwards and pushes the swinging arm downwards, (have you ever noticed the rear of the bike lift up on the dyno)QUOTE]
So does the squat and anti-squat cancel each other out :confused:

[mat2hew]

So does the squat and anti-squat cancel each other out :confused:

it shouldn't 'coz you want a curtain amount, there should be more squat than anti squat,

I recon that somebody who knows what they are talking about should answer that.

[antonye]

Keith Code (of CSS fame) says that the rear increases in height under acceleration due to torque acting on the pivot of the swingarm.

This makes sense, and he challenges those who don't believe him to put the front wheel against a wall and try accelerating to see which way it goes!

The reason behind him telling you this is to back-up his rule about weight transfer and positive throttle through a corner; by keeping a positive throttle through the corner you maintain your weight balance as well as improving ground clearance.

[mat2hew]

now,,,, in reverse to that,, when you pull the front brake the weight transfers to the front and the front goes down and the back goes up, which is pretty obvious but what happens when you use the rear brake? why? and how can we use that to our advantage?

[skidlids]

but what happens when you use the rear brake? why? and how can we use that to our advantage?

Does that not depend on how your rear caliper is mounted
usually 4 options
Fixed mount above the swingarm
Fixed Mount below the swingarm
Floating mount above the swingarm
Floating mount below the swingarm

any of which will act as anti wheelie and ideal for rotating the front to land the back edge of a table top jump correctly

[bally71]

Keith Code (of CSS fame) says that the rear increases in height under acceleration due to torque acting on the pivot of the swingarm.

This makes sense, and he challenges those who don't believe him to put the front wheel against a wall and try accelerating to see which way it goes!

The reason behind him telling you this is to back-up his rule about weight transfer and positive throttle through a corner; by keeping a positive throttle through the corner you maintain your weight balance as well as improving ground clearance.

This is total tosh ..

If you put the front wheel against a wall the back end will rise because your shortening the wheelbase ..

Opening the throttle loads the back shock and it will sag ..

The rotational forces will try and pivot the bike around the rear spindle and the change in the centre of gravity plus the accelerational forces are transferred via the shock

[bally71]

any of which will act as anti wheelie and ideal for rotating the front to land the back edge of a table top jump correctly

Lol .. bet it's a while since you've done that kev

[skidlids]

Lol .. bet it's a while since you've done that kev

Never did get that one fully sorted and yes its been a few years since I've had a dirt bike, probably shows as they were great for winter training