How much power can you get from a 620?

[Rattler]

I entered the DD series this year intially on a pretty stock 2002 620ie and have spent some money on personal riding development and slowly added a few performance extras to the bike.

As a result of these, my perfomances have improved and I intend to further invest in my bike and myself for next year's series.

I'm pretty sure about how I'll develop my riding next year, but as a hypothetical exercise, what can be achieved in terms of performance upgrade to a 620ie and at what cost?

With paddock talk of 70+ bhp bikes for next year, how realistic is this? What would deliver this kind of performance?

Whilst not expecting to get to these levels of performance, what can be achieved, how and at what cost?

My plan would be 6-speed box, custom exhaust and PC map, but what else? As engine work is extremely restricted, what can be done? Blueprinting? Suspension?

Tim

[TP]

I'd concentrate on suspension Tim, I think this is where you'll find the biggest gains in laptimes. Sure you might find more power out of the engine but in terms of cost per reducing laptimes I didn't think it was worthwhile chasing.

IMO

[Rattler]

Originally posted by TP
I'd concentrate on suspension Tim, I think this is where you'll find the biggest gains in laptimes. Sure you might find more power out of the engine but in terms of cost per reducing laptimes I didn't think it was worthwhile chasing.

IMO

Fair enough - but I know sod all about suspension!!! I wouldn't know a preload change from a compression change if it smacked me in the kisser!!!

The suspension on mine feels fine, its had reworked front forks and a S4 rear shock, but the only adjustments I've made to either was going 2 clicks harder on the rear shock (why? - because I could!!) I then subsequently had a big slide at Brands and I quickly moved it back. But I felt / noticed no difference.

I suppose I could get someone to work with me on this, maybe the suspension guy at 100% for example, but without knowing what's wrong (if anything) with my suspension now - how can this get better? Perhaps I shoudl ride someone's DD bike that has been setup? But in all likelyhood this would be setup for them and may feel worse to me?

Perhaps I should get myself to a track and get playing.
Tim

[dickieducati]

i think 70+ is realistic but as tony says outright power is not the be all and end all. you need to be able to use what you have effectively.

i dont think a few bhp makes chuff all difference to be honest. but most of the front runners either/have or will have a few mods such as pc's giving upwards of 65 bhp.

but the the talented rider with a well set up bike will prevail.

b.t.w im going down the same route as you. sssshhhhhh.....

[AK]

Snot is currently 65.7 and the tango queen is 66.5

As you might remember tho, it has been a constant battle for AK to get increase of power on the 'Snot Mobile - here is the 'fight' for the increase this season for Snotty;

Cadwell woodland: 583 std, on 48hp - got good placings tho with a 5th & 6th
Castle C : 675 on 52.5 hp 5th & 7th
Snett: 675 on 54hp - smoking badly 10th
Donny: 620: on 62.5 - 2nd & 5th (after guest riders removed from points)
Brands 620: on 65.7 with PC fitted - novice rider out for first go, no results....


Snot also had the benefit of forks re-worked, and good rear susp, which was more important to us, than the higher HP at the start of racing.

We will be returning the snot to 583, and the tango queen MAY get an FIM chip for next season, IF all our 'garage sale' booty goes. We expect to then get approx another 2hp.... but then again, if Andy can ride like he did on Sunday, we might just leave as is, except getting the forks done:)

C

[itexuk]

Better brakes so you can brake later, should save 10th in every corner + better suspension.

[JPM]

Tim why not visit someone like K-Tech etc, they're not that local but what they don't know isn't worth knowing, I guess you could give them a call and explain your needs, riding style, weight etc etc they might just have some base settings, or might go further, springs/revalve etc

[ali]

I'd be dubious that you could get more than 70bhp without ram-air effect. It seems to me that there's a definite ceiling around the 65-66bhp mark before costs become absurd (unless you have free labour).

Far more importantly, I think the useability of the engine diminishes as you eek the last couple of bhp out of it. Off-idle fuelling and an asthmatic bottom end seem to be the results of overtuning.

[Rattler]

Originally posted by itexuk
Better brakes so you can brake later, should save 10th in every corner + better suspension.

Already got those, the brake setup is better than my 996R :o:o:o

[Rattler]

Originally posted by ali
Off-idle fuelling and an asthmatic bottom end seem to be the results of overtuning.

Where's babel-fish when you need it :puzzled::puzzled::puzzled::puzzled::puzzled::puzz led:

[TP]

If your 620 was making big power numbers - circa 68-70 then I'd be interested to look at your torque and power curves. They might have big final numbers but I think they might be at the expense of what drives you out of the corner. I'd be more interested in making sure I had that covered and having the suspension well sorted and some decent brakes.

Tim why don't you just take some measurements on your bike, put some oil on your forks and shock to see how much of your travel you are actually using when you're braking as hard as you can and cornering as fast as you can etc ... then you'll know if they need adjusting. You actually don't want to be using your full suspension travel because you're not giving your suspension it's best opportunity to deal with surface imperfections when your forks or shock are nearly fully compressed.

Do you feel like the front pushes at all, or that it's really difficult to turn - especially when the power is on? Part of this will be geometry as well. It's all a complex equation that the more I learn the more I realise I don't know - that's why I paid Neil to sort it out for me. If you're happy to pay a few hundred quid on chasing 2 or 3 horsepower I reckon you'd be MUCH better off spending £500 on suspension.

[fil2]

i dont agree......well i do to a degree...get the suspension set up and the brakes then if you can afford to get 70+ rwp why not.............sure 66 is easily acheivable as has been shown by most of the 620ies on the grid, if you can get 70rwp and you can afford it why not give your self every advantage you can........
Of course the rider has to be able to exploit the gains for them to be worthwhile otherwise they become redundant..........

Phil

ps..if i had the money i would eek every bit of BHP i could..........

[TP]

Originally posted by fil2
i dont agree......well i do to a degree...get the suspension set up and the brakes then if you can afford to get 70+ rwp why not.............sure 66 is easily acheivable as has been shown by most of the 620ies on the grid, if you can get 70rwp and you can afford it why not give your self every advantage you can........
Of course the rider has to be able to exploit the gains for them to be worthwhile otherwise they become redundant..........

Phil

ps..if i had the money i would eek every bit of BHP i could..........

Even to the point where you have sacrificed your midrange completely just to see a big top end number? You'd have to ride it like a two stroke just to have any power but you'd have the disadvantage of still having the engine braking meaning that while you're likely to lock up the rear a lot downshifting for corners in order to keep the revs so high.

You'd better possess the finesse of a very experienced racer or have a decent slipper clutch to be able to ride a bike setup like that I think.

I could be completely wrong of course, it wouldn't be the first time.

I'd be more happy to sacrifice a few bhp in the top end to make a bike that drives off the corners better and is generally easier to ride.

[fil2]

Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by fil2
i dont agree......well i do to a degree...get the suspension set up and the brakes then if you can afford to get 70+ rwp why not.............sure 66 is easily acheivable as has been shown by most of the 620ies on the grid, if you can get 70rwp and you can afford it why not give your self every advantage you can........
Of course the rider has to be able to exploit the gains for them to be worthwhile otherwise they become redundant..........

Phil

ps..if i had the money i would eek every bit of BHP i could..........

Even to the point where you have sacrificed your midrange completely just to see a big top end number? You'd have to ride it like a two stroke just to have any power but you'd have the disadvantage of still having the engine braking meaning that while you're likely to lock up the rear a lot downshifting for corners in order to keep the revs so high.

You'd better possess the finesse of a very experienced racer or have a decent slipper clutch to be able to ride a bike setup like that I think.

I could be completely wrong of course, it wouldn't be the first time.

I'd be more happy to sacrifice a few bhp in the top end to make a bike that drives off the corners better and is generally easier to ride.

agreed....would not sacrfice power curves to the extent of a 2 stroke ...my bike spend most of its time in the upper reaches of the revs anyway
My point is if you can acheive high rwhp while maintaining power delivery acceptable to the ride why not.........
I dont think with 70rwhp that rear lock up would be an issue.?..and besides i would fit a slipper clutch to combat that if indeed it was a problem............

If you can afford too have it all...why not give yourself every chance you can buy.?

[Edited on 14-9-2005 by fil2]

[AK]

Originally posted by fil2

ps..if i had the money i would eek every bit of BHP i could..........

Phil, this is exactly what we sacrificed financially for a good set up at the beginning of the season, as TP agrees with, mate.

Suspension first, first & first!

[fil2]

Originally posted by CK and AK
Originally posted by fil2

ps..if i had the money i would eek every bit of BHP i could..........

Phil, this is exactly what we sacrificed financially for a good set up at the beginning of the season, as TP agrees with, mate.

Suspension first, first & first!

im not disagreeing with that at all CK or TP.....what im saying is if you can have BOTH and afford it..why not.? why not afford yourself every advantage you can if you have the funds to do so...?............

[TP]

Originally posted by fil2
agreed....would not sacrfice power curves to the extent of a 2 stroke ...my bike spend most of its time in the upper reaches of the revs anyway
My point is if you can acheive high rwhp while maintaining power delivery acceptable to the ride why not.........
I dont think with 70rwhp that rear lock up would be an issue.?..and besides i would fit a slipper clutch to combat that if indeed it was a problem............

I reckon to get that sort of power and a decent slipper clutch you've just invested around £2k-£3k or more in the bike - depending on where you go to and your own tuning expertise. If you haven't sorted out the suspension then you still need to do that as well, plus brakes - now you have a very, very expensive bike.

Not worth it for DD IMO.

[ali]

Excessive revving of duacti engines can result in oily unpleasantness! :lol:

75bhp at 11,000 rpm is very nice, but you'd better have a blueprinted engine including balanced pistons. There's always a good chance of bent valves, blown head gaskets, etc, when running an engine at its very limits, and rebuilds rarely come in at less than four figures. Is this series really at a stage where this is normal for the series leaders? Madness.

[fil2]

Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by fil2
agreed....would not sacrfice power curves to the extent of a 2 stroke ...my bike spend most of its time in the upper reaches of the revs anyway
My point is if you can acheive high rwhp while maintaining power delivery acceptable to the ride why not.........
I dont think with 70rwhp that rear lock up would be an issue.?..and besides i would fit a slipper clutch to combat that if indeed it was a problem............

I reckon to get that sort of power and a decent slipper clutch you've just invested around £2k-£3k or more in the bike - depending on where you go to and your own tuning expertise. If you haven't sorted out the suspension then you still need to do that as well, plus brakes - now you have a very, very expensive bike.

Not worth it for DD IMO.

Thats all relative .!!.....if u can why not is all im saying...and if you want to give yourself the advantage that it may bring you on the track why not.!..the amount of money racers spend on their bikes in another classes is beyond compare....

If i had the money i would buy a new monnie 620ie roll it into BAINES and say build the fastest best handling monster you can.. "ring me " when its done or you want me into sort suspension etc.....:D..........



:ninja:

[Edited on 14-9-2005 by fil2]

[fil2]

Originally posted by ali
Excessive revving of duacti engines can result in oily unpleasantness! :lol:

75bhp at 11,000 rpm is very nice, but you'd better have a blueprinted engine including balanced pistons. There's always a good chance of bent valves, blown head gaskets, etc, when running an engine at its very limits, and rebuilds rarely come in at less than four figures. Is this series really at a stage where this is normal for the series leaders? Madness.

yup.................and why not if they can afford it or want to put that effort in.?

[TP]

I see what you are saying ... if money is no object then go for it! Fill your boots.

I don't really care to be honest, I could have spent more on power but chose not to because I didn't think the cost per bhp were worth it for my situation. If someone is in a money no object situation then good for them - rock on.

[dickieducati]

this was only a hypothetical question really. but the fact is if you had unlimited cash and wanted to spend it on a DD bike you could have a 70+ bike that handles the nuts and weighs stuff all. you still have to ride it though and in reality no one would bother spending that much on a DD bike.

[ali]

Originally posted by dickieducati
and weighs stuff all.

How would you pare the bike down to 150kg without braking the rules? All the usual suspects (wheels, engine parts, etc) must be original. A Ti screw kit might save 1kg, and a carbon tank another 2kg, but the dry weight of a monster is 177kg, so I doubt anyone would get it much below 165kg regardless of budget.

[AK]

Our rough estimate with Snotty was 170:(

be interesting to weigh them exactly tho....

I wonder if Scotty has some scales - or maybe berto (which he uses for his big 'hump' :lol::lol:)

Sorry Scotty!!!!:rolleye::o:alien:

C:saint:

[Tonio600]

Message original : Rattler
How much power can you get from a 620?

Too much for me :lol:

[phoenix n max]

Reliability over tuneability ? Handling over BHP ? ;)

Base dyno's etc from 620 here http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/620sport.html

[itexuk]

If weight = speed then speed = DIET and this cost nothing but will power ;)

[Rattler]

It was a hypothetical question and should perhaps have been entiltled "how quick can you make a 620" .

As the points regarding suspension are well made.

I was kinda looking for an approx list of parts / price to see what effectively could be achieved on a particular buget.

ie
PC111 - £300
Dyno time - £40/hour
Custom exhaust - £500
Blueprinting - £400
Lightened flywheel - £80
etc, etc


Tim

[boggy 8]

My 620 sport makes 60.2 bhp at the rear wheel, please let me know where i can find 10 bhp more . I think that the over all set up of the bike is more important than bhp. But i may be wrong ?

[domski]

Originally posted by boggy 8
My 620 sport makes 60.2 bhp at the rear wheel, please let me know where i can find 10 bhp more . I think that the over all set up of the bike is more important than bhp. But i may be wrong ?

What sort of results are you getting on track though?!?!?!?




...oh yeah ;) :D

[TP]

Originally posted by Rattler
It was a hypothetical question and should perhaps have been entiltled "how quick can you make a 620" .

As the points regarding suspension are well made.

I was kinda looking for an approx list of parts / price to see what effectively could be achieved on a particular buget.

ie
PC111 - £300
Dyno time - £40/hour
Custom exhaust - £500
Blueprinting - £400
Lightened flywheel - £80
etc, etc


Tim

By my interpretation of the rules a lightened flywheel is illegal - what does everyone else think? It's not specifically mentioned as an item you're allowed to change and the catch all statement about mods not specifically mentioned are not allowed seems to cover it?

I could be wrong ...

[Monty]

"Lightened flywheel - £80"-you'll not be doing that of course young Tim since it's outside the rules..............??

John

[domski]

Surely 'blueprinting' is outside the rules too?

IN FACT - There is no reason to have an engine taken apart/re-built by anyone as you can't do anything to them according to the rules.

So it kind of begs the question, what are these tuners doing?

The rules allow you to fit an exhaust, air filter, PC3 or Dynojet kit and set the cam timing... nothing else.

How engines range from 58-68 is a bit confusing considering the lack of mods allowed.

Must be some good engines and some not so good engines I suppose.

[Rattler]

Originally posted by Monty
"Lightened flywheel - £80"-you'll not be doing that of course young Tim since it's outside the rules..............??

John

Thanks John - you've just saved me £80 ;)

[Jon]

Originally posted by Rattler
Originally posted by Monty
"Lightened flywheel - £80"-you'll not be doing that of course young Tim since it's outside the rules..............??

John

Thanks John - you've just saved me £80 ;)

What about if you remove the flywheel all togeather?

[domski]

That saves you 2 pounds :lol:

[twpd]

Originally posted by domski

How engines range from 58-68 is a bit confusing considering the lack of mods allowed.

Must be some good engines and some not so good engines I suppose.

Not all dynos are equal. Not all are calibrated. Not all are calibrated or maintained to the same std and some tuners add "the bling factor" to the readings to gain business. I have personal experience of this myself.

As 600 Pantah racing engines in the early 80's were delivering 80+bhp then I suppose it's not beyond the means of some to attain more than 70 now...whether those means are legal or not is open to question.
If people are getting 65-68 now then they are in minitwin territory (most sv's are in the 65-69bhp bracket) which, for an old air-cooled 2 valve motor is pretty good going!

[Edited on 14-9-2005 by twpd]

[boggy 8]

Looks to me that its time to strip some engines at cadwell.How much does a protest cost ? X 20 = ?

[domski]

Who's gunna check them and know what they're looking at?

Could be the most fun all year :D

...who's not coming to Cadwell now? :lol:

[Edited on 15-9-2005 by domski]

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by boggy 8
My 620 sport makes 60.2 bhp at the rear wheel, please let me know where i can find 10 bhp more . I think that the over all set up of the bike is more important than bhp. But i may be wrong ?

quote of the year imho.

[Jools]

Originally posted by boggy 8
My 620 sport makes 60.2 bhp at the rear wheel, please let me know where i can find 10 bhp more

A Nitrous Oxide bottle disguised as a catch tank?

[phoenix n max]

I wonder if i've got the lowest bhp at 49.7 ? Probably a bit less now as that was done at beginning of year. Not that it matters to me much seeing as I can't make use of all that power :lol:

[AK]

Originally posted by boggy 8
Looks to me that its time to strip some engines at cadwell.How much does a protest cost ? X 20 = ?

AK says he'll do it for a cuppa tea:) - cos he would be like a 'pig in pooh' taking things apart! :lol:

Std 05 620's are about 62hp from factory, so with pc & good zaust system fitted will come up to about 66, as should increase power by 2 hp each item.

As you said earlier Geoff, and I did too, right at the beginning, the set up of susp etc, is much more important for these bikes. You have shown that all season mate - as did Andy on the bog std engine snot at Cadwell:)

C

[fil2]

Originally posted by boggy 8
My 620 sport makes 60.2 bhp at the rear wheel, please let me know where i can find 10 bhp more . I think that the over all set up of the bike is more important than bhp. But i may be wrong ?

LOL like you need it..some of the riders are on bikes with 51.5bhp at the rear wheel..so if you find a spare 10bhp chuck it down to the peasents in the low ranks huh.!

:frog:

[Tonio600]

I've always thought I wouldn't be slower with my 583 Monster than with the 620. I'll definitely have to check that at a trackday. I think with so small engines, the rider ability makes everything.

[twpd]

I used to believe the maxim "rider makes the difference" and to some extent it does. But then power is just as important. Put a bunch of riders of equal skills on the same bikes with varying engine outputs and the faster bike will mostly always win. No matter how good you are a 10bhp difference is a CHASM.

This year in MRO I've been struggling. I am rarely passed into a corner, never in a corner but, almost always passed in a straightline particularly when it comes to acceleration. I've had to resort to outbraking as the only means to make a pass because even if I was tucked up the exhaust pipe of another rider, once he was onto the straight he would power away. Anyone who is suffering from a lack of power compared to others will know exactly what I mean. It's incredibly frustrating and leads you to taking chances you wouldn't normally take in order to make a pass.

I got my bike on the dyno a few times and found it was only delivering 64bhp so, I was some 5-8bhp down on other bikes and it showed. Now I've done some more work on it I'm back up to around 70 with a 5bhp gain at 6500rpm so, it'll be interesting to see what difference it makes.

If you get any work done on your bikes then I recommend you verify and compare readings against those obtained on another dyno. I believed the outputs that were quoted for my bike when it was given a workover earlier in the year. Since then I have spent most of the season castigating myself for getting whupped, getting down about things and losing faith only to find that the bike was indeed not right.

Power does matter a lot.

[Edited on 15-9-2005 by twpd]

[Tonio600]

I trust you, but when I have a look at the results of people who've run different engines in the season (Dom and Geoff by example) I don't see where the difference is. I agree on the fact that power matters, but I think it matters a lot more at your racing level than at ours (orange bib race series :D ). If I would have some money to put in my bike, I'd buy a new master cylinder, a new rear shock absorber and I would make my forks reworked. I wouldn't change anything to my standard engine... Of course if I win the national lottery, things are different :lol:

[fil2]

Originally posted by twpd
I used to believe the maxim "rider makes the difference" and to some extent it does. But then power is just as important. Put a bunch of riders of equal skills on the same bikes with varying engine outputs and the faster bike will mostly always win. No matter how good you are a 10bhp difference is a CHASM.

This year in MRO I've been struggling. I am rarely passed into a corner, never in a corner but, almost always passed in a straightline particularly when it comes to acceleration. I've had to resort to outbraking as the only means to make a pass because even if I was tucked up the exhaust pipe of another rider, once he was onto the straight he would power away. Anyone who is suffering from a lack of power compared to others will know exactly what I mean. It's incredibly frustrating and leads you to taking chances you wouldn't normally take in order to make a pass.

I got my bike on the dyno a few times and found it was only delivering 64bhp so, I was some 5-8bhp down on other bikes and it showed. Now I've done some more work on it I'm back up to around 70 with a 5bhp gain at 6500rpm so, it'll be interesting to see what difference it makes.

If you get any work done on your bikes then I recommend you verify and compare readings against those obtained on another dyno. I believed the outputs that were quoted for my bike when it was given a workover earlier in the year. Since then I have spent most of the season castigating myself for getting whupped, getting down about things and losing faith only to find that the bike was indeed not right.

Power does matter a lot.

[Edited on 15-9-2005 by twpd]


i know of a few..;) suffering those exact symptons..........

[AK]

Originally posted by fil2

i know of a few..;) suffering those exact symptons..........

sounds like you are thinking of my hubbie there Phil:mad:

just cos he is addicted to pulling mechanical things apart:o
and also to dyno machines:lol::lol::lol:

You like booze & women:frog: - he likes engines:lol::lol::lol:

C, off to dial in her cams;) :saint:

[skidlids]

Originally posted by Rattler
How much power can you get from a 620
Tim

A lot more than you can from a 583 :D

[psychlist]

Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by boggy 8
My 620 sport makes 60.2 bhp at the rear wheel, please let me know where i can find 10 bhp more . I think that the over all set up of the bike is more important than bhp. But i may be wrong ?

LOL like you need it..some of the riders are on bikes with 51.5bhp at the rear wheel..so if you find a spare 10bhp chuck it down to the peasents in the low ranks huh.!

:frog:

Cheers Phil (I think :puzzled: ), I had the benefit of Geoff guiding me round Cadders at the last track attack and he was happy with my speed into/round/through corners but was asking why I didnt accelerate along the straights, reckons he was keeping up on tickover. With 50.7bhp available (on MHP's dyno) that's the sort of difference 10+bhp CAN make :o

Antoine, if you ever want to take 'Monica' for a spin to see how us peasants "make do", you're welcome mate ;)

[Tonio600]

Paul, I may race in your class next year. And I remember all my feelings when riding Julie2 (that's my 600 Monster). So I'll deny your offer regarding Monica :D

[clockwork orange]

Originally posted by CK and AK
AK says he'll do it for a cuppa tea:) - cos he would be like a 'pig in pooh' taking things apart! :lol:
C

Rob will join in there - he's the same !!! :devil::devil::lol::lol:

[fil2]

Originally posted by psychlist
Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by boggy 8
My 620 sport makes 60.2 bhp at the rear wheel, please let me know where i can find 10 bhp more . I think that the over all set up of the bike is more important than bhp. But i may be wrong ?

LOL like you need it..some of the riders are on bikes with 51.5bhp at the rear wheel..so if you find a spare 10bhp chuck it down to the peasents in the low ranks huh.!

:frog:

Cheers Phil (I think :puzzled: ), I had the benefit of Geoff guiding me round Cadders at the last track attack and he was happy with my speed into/round/through corners but was asking why I didnt accelerate along the straights, reckons he was keeping up on tickover. With 50.7bhp available (on MHP's dyno) that's the sort of difference 10+bhp CAN make :o

Antoine, if you ever want to take 'Monica' for a spin to see how us peasants "make do", you're welcome mate ;)

LOL .....i class myself amongst the peasants with sub 53bhp......LOL..class post though made me laugh

[Edited on 15-9-2005 by fil2]

[domski]

Originally posted by Tonio600
I trust you, but when I have a look at the results of people who've run different engines in the season (Dom and Geoff by example) I don't see where the difference is.

We're going off topic here a tad, but...

My 620 is making the same power as my 675 big bore bike - we don't know why and that's why there has been no great difference in MY performances - that and the fact I've been getting slowly demoralised during the season.

...and I think that Geoff's engine only lost a couple of bhp, not 10.

Don't forget that 10bhp may not sound much, but it's 20% between 52bhp and 62bhp.

Not sure how equal riders would go on 120bhp and 144bhp for example?

Probably go the same speed eh - not!

Is the 240-250bhp Desmosedici faster than the WCM with 200bhp?

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by domski
Is the 240-250bhp Desmosedici faster than the WCM with 200bhp?

not with you on boad it wouldnt be. ;)

[domski]

I don't care :P

How many votes have I got for this holiday anyway? I must be the most popular bloke in DD :lol:

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by domski
I don't care :P

How many votes have I got for this holiday anyway? I must be the most popular bloke in DD :lol:


what ? .........altogether?

[domski]

I know it's loads of votes, but try counting them on no fingers - it will make it easier :lol:

[dickieducati]

i really cant divulge any infomation at this stage;
but i wouldn't rush out and buy yourself any new speedo's for the time being.

[domski]

dammit :sniff:

Prepare yourself for the rush :lol:

[Tonio600]

Message original : domski
Don't forget that 10bhp may not sound much, but it's 20% between 52bhp and 62bhp.
Not sure how equal riders would go on 120bhp and 144bhp for example?
Probably go the same speed eh - not!

I think you're wrong mate. The way you present things just doesn't care about the weight.

There is no point calculating a power ratio if you don't deal with the weight of racer + bike. Take 2 bikes of 3.1 and 2.6bhp. The ratio is still the same (20% power less for the second one... oh my god) but with a weight of 175kg each, I think those bikes will make the same laptimes (which should be very close to mine :D ).

What I mean is that smaller the engines are, less significant the difference in their laptimes will be. And at our level (novice racing), I think rider skills are worth 95% against bike preparation... I definitely think Geoff would have won the championship on any bike, but that's just my opinion :D

[domski]

I don't think he would have won it on a 583.

Maybe he would like to ride one at Cadwell?? :lol:

[phoenix n max]

He can take Max in the SOT if he wants :D

[AK]

you let him ride max in the DD Lin - and I'll let you borrow the Tango Queen instead!!:cool:

[Tonio600]

Message original : domski
I don't think he would have won it on a 583.

ok, maybe not. He would have been second just behind you :lol::lol::lol:

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by domski
on't forget that 10bhp may not sound much, but it's 20% between 52bhp and 62bhp.

Not sure how equal riders would go on 120bhp and 144bhp for example?

Probably go the same speed eh - not!


for what its worth im not so sure horsepower counts anywhere near as much as some people are making out.

last time i was on my 146 bhp 999 at brands indy best i did was 58.65

on my 60? bhp monster a week back best i did was a 58.06

now, ok its a year apart and hopefully i have improved a bit but even so? going from what some people are saying i should be WAY slower on the monster.

[ali]

I hope to be able to give the definitive answer on the "how much better will you do with 10bhp more" debate at Cadwell. :ninja:

[Rattler]

Originally posted by ali
I hope to be able to give the definitive answer on the "how much better will you do with 10bhp more" debate at Cadwell. :ninja:

pray tell !

[Tonio600]

Message original : ali
I hope to be able to give the definitive answer on the "how much better will you do with 10bhp more" debate at Cadwell. :ninja:

I hope you won't be too much disappointed :saint:
(3rd was your best position of the season wasn't it?)

[domski]

Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by domski
on't forget that 10bhp may not sound much, but it's 20% between 52bhp and 62bhp.

Not sure how equal riders would go on 120bhp and 144bhp for example?

Probably go the same speed eh - not!


for what its worth im not so sure horsepower counts anywhere near as much as some people are making out.

last time i was on my 146 bhp 999 at brands indy best i did was 58.65

on my 60? bhp monster a week back best i did was a 58.06

now, ok its a year apart and hopefully i have improved a bit but even so? going from what some people are saying i should be WAY slower on the monster.

...but you're a muppet :lol: ;)

Look at what Andy Johnson did at Brands... from 53 ish up to 66 ish, and went from fighting for 5th??? at best to fighting for a WIN!!!!!

A good rider shows the diff between 53 and 66.

I'm sure you'd go a bit faster on the 999 this year - in a race - if you weren't worried about dropping it etc etc

[domski]

...and if it was down to rider ability, why are all the fast guys on expensive and finely fettled bikes?

Coincidence I suppose.

Why didn't Geoff, Clint, Dave and Mike just spend £1500 on a 583 if that is all you need??

[AK]

Originally posted by domski


Look at what Andy Johnson did at Brands... from 53 ish up to 66 ish, and went from fighting for 5th??? at best to fighting for a WIN!!!!!

A good rider shows the diff between 53 and 66.


yeah!:D

and look what Andy did with a 583 at Cadders at the beginning of it all eh?:P

And remember Andy had never ridden that bike he had at brands - nor had he ever ridden the track, not put in any tracktime since Donny!

Dom - you get out on a 583 mate & show them how its done.... :lol:

[domski]

Originally posted by CK and AK
Dom - you get out on a 583 mate & show them how its done.... :lol:

...I'm waiting for you to go out and show me how easy it is :P

[Tonio600]

Message original : domski
...and if it was down to rider ability, why are all the fast guys on expensive and finely fettled bikes?

Coincidence I suppose.

Why didn't Geoff, Clint, Dave and Mike just spend £1500 on a 583 if that is all you need??

And why are you SO slow on a 620 mate :lol:

I know coming from me it sounds like a joke. But I'm a typical example that rider ability is much more important than the bike... Because I've never done better than 15th on the bike supposed to be the best for the series.

But actually, I think we won't agree on that point. It doesn't mean that I'm right or you're wrong :lol: we just see things in different ways.

[Edité le 16-9-2005 par Tonio600]

[domski]

My 620 makes 53 bhp thats why!!

:flame::frog:

:lol:

[Tonio600]

You do not like frogs do you? :D

[domski]

Only when they're cooked properly ;)

[AK]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by CK and AK
Dom - you get out on a 583 mate & show them how its done.... :lol:

...I'm waiting for you to go out and show me how easy it is :P

that would be too easy - I'd need my road mirrors on, to see how far you were behind me!:P:P

C, off to Rugby next week......:smug:

[Tonio600]

That one is for you Dom :D :


Question : What bike modification has the most impact on performance?
Answer: Suspension! Suspension! Suspension!

You may be surprised to know that the answer is not extra power. The greatest gain is to be faster through the corner, not in a straight line. Improving the suspension allows you to brake later, carry more corner speed, accelerate earlier, and reach your top speed quicker.

And the best for the end :lol:

The best example is on a race track, where approximately 80% of the lap time is spent entering and exiting corners. If a bike can corner just a fraction of a second faster on every corner, 80% of the lap time must show an improvement. We've calculated, a 100 bhp 750cc bike would need to squeeze another 40-50 bhp to achieve the same gain.

Ok mate, it comes from an Hyperpro leaflet and of course they were not going to tell us that changing our suspension is useless, but anyway, I do believe in that way of thinking. And even if I think they may exagerate when they speak about 40-50 bhp, I do think bike suspensions and rider ability are more important than 10bhp (especially when those 10 bhp are out of 60...).

[domski]

You don't get it do you.

Nobody has passed me in a corner.

I am not slow through a corner.

I am not losing 3 seconds a lap through being rubbish in corners.

My suspension set-up is brilliant, and I am not a bad rider.

If you put CK's Tango Queen engine in my bike, I'm confident I'd be as fast as Andy is with that engine.

When we both had 51-53bhp...

Cadwell Woodlands - Dom 50.88 Andy 50.20
Snetterton - Dom 1.23.9 Andy 1.26.43
Donington (Rain) - Dom 1.47.79 Andy 1:44.39

When Andy got Tango'd (66bhp?)...

Brands - Dom 58.56, Andy 56.21

So Andy whooped me in the rain, and I had a better meeting at Snett (but Mrs Snot was smoking - power loss?) and finally Andy on the Tango bike flew at Brands.

[domski]

Right also just went through timing sheets (Except the 1 wet round!!)

Out of the 'Up to 53bhp' bikes - my 620 included, for that is the power it makes (40bhp at CC), here is how bad I am...

Cadwell Woodlands - I was 2nd fastest 675/583 and the only other 675/583 rider to get under 51secs all weekend was Andy Johnson. Not sure if anyone remembers either, but I only managed 9 laps of one race from 30th - 11th place.

Castle Combe - With a massive 40bhp (620 on carbs) I didn't do well on lap times here, but was still 6th fastest 675/583 - with 40bhp remember, just incase you forgot - oh and a freshly BROKEN ARM.

Snetterton - How about quickest 675/583 then? Must have been that Corsa front tyre. 0.7 of a second quicker than Ali (who I battled with) & Paul Payne (who did his quickest lap trying to chase me at the end).

Brands Hatch - I'm crap again, 3rd fastest lap at Brands for me behind Andy Roberts!!!!! and Phil.

So as you can see, my corner speed is rubbish and I need better suspension and not more power (like those pesky 66bhp monsters) coz that's the only way to go faster.

Incidently, I'm not stupid enough to think that I'm cornering faster than everyone else. I'm sure I have lots to improve, but not 3 seconds a lap worth!!!

Hope that clears things up - and I've had a rubbish season!

:D

[Tonio600]

I definitely don't get it, must be too silly :lol:

[domski]

Bloody French!!!!!!

As there are varying abilities in DD, you can't say that Geoff having 60bhp is the reason he beats Lin on her 583 with 50bhp.

Obviously it's because Geoff is a faster rider.

BUT, what you are saying Tonio, is that Geoff would lap as fast with 50bhp or 60bhp or 70bhp.

I guarantee you that is RUBBISH!!!

He would go fastest with 70bhp, followed by 60bhp and slowest on 50bhp.

Is it really that complicated?

2 riders of equal ability, on bikes with 60bhp and 50bhp - the guy with 60bhp wins everytime - all other things being equal.

[Tonio600]

I've never said you were not a good racer, my opinion is just that the power quest is not the good one. But I must be wrong, because I'm a novice, and I should say a slow novice.

Now I just hope Ali will manage to get a proper 620 (more than 60 bhp) for the last round at Cadwell. Everybody knows he's a fast racer, and I think he already got a 3rd position. Let's see how things will change for him.

[boggy 8]

Ok Dom what times were you doing on your 748 at castle combe compared to the dd times . Just as a guage to see what can be done with 100+ bhp.

[Tonio600]

Message original : domski
2 riders of equal ability, on bikes with 60bhp and 50bhp - the guy with 60bhp wins everytime - all other things being equal.

Of course that's right, but in the real life you'll never have the 2 riders of same ability. One has to be slower than the other one, and that is very difficult to admit :lol:

[domski]

I did 12 dry laps all weekend, and my fastest was a 1:21.33 on lap 4 of practice just as it started to rain - that's 4 seconds quicker than you went on your 4th lap of practice.

The whole weekend was damp, and the first race was wet.

In the races I got held up in the corners because my corner speed is obviously so bad, and then lost out down the straights because 40bhp makes no difference.

You know what, maybe it's just me.

:eureka:

[Edited on 17-9-2005 by domski]

[boggy 8]

Im just winding you up .Dont take it so seriously its only for fun not WSB.

[domski]

Yeah, but I was still 4 seconds faster than you :P

:D

[skidlids]

Whats all this "up to 53bhp" including a 620 and putting 675cc and 583cc bikes together, there are big differences, 620s rev harder and can extract more speed from there gearing, 675's make more low down power than a 583 and can pull slightly higer gearing allowing them to extract more speed.
And if anybody thinks that suspension tweeks can make up for a 10bhp disadvantage at Snetterton they must be on something.

[domski]

Oh come on Kev. Everyone knows that it's down to rider ability and not power, and what's a measly 10bhp between friends?

I think they must have redesigned Snett too, coz it wasn't 80% turns when I was there.

As for the "Up to 53bhp" thing, my 620 is virtually indentical to Phil's 675 on accelleration and top speed, and his makes 51.5bhp and mine makes 53bhp. Mine hits a limiter at 9,300 and his doesn't.

More power low down???? Low down where?

Mine makes nothing below 7,000 - nothing worth using anyway.

[TP]

I've only just caught up on this thread ... sheesh!

I need some more popcorn!

[Ray]

Lord R,

Sorry for the tardy reply but I have been sunning myself in a handy tax haven. Enough of my feeble excuses I shall have a member of staff read me the rules again immediately. I will be in touch directly via PM with some money no object suggestions how to legally improve the performance of your competitive motorcycling device.
I trust you have ruled out the idea of having Mr Toseland hiding in your hospitality marque and then impersonating you in the races?

Ray

PS more power is good, too much is better!

[Edited on 19-9-2005 by Ray]