Dyno Readings ?

[couchcommando]

I am well confused, my bike has been built to the 2006 spec, a lot of new items and it has 61hp at the rear wheel. It is running perfect ? Maybe people are tuning the dyno readings and not the engines ? ;) ;)

So just where do the 70hp claims come from ? Are we really believing them ? Are we believing our DD engines can really match an SV650 with it's twin cams, 4 valves and water cooling ?

Please discuss ? :) :)

[Rattler]

When the flag drops, the bullshit stops ;)

[couchcommando]

Originally posted by Rattler
When the flag drops, the bullshit stops ;)

What is even more surprising is this bike won giving away over 10hp to some of the opposition !!!.......;)

[fil2]

Originally posted by couchcommando
Originally posted by Rattler
When the flag drops, the bullshit stops ;)

What is even more surprising is this bike won giving away over 10hp to some of the opposition !!!.......;)

rider ability.?

[Ray]

CC,

Dyno readings may rise and fall, todays reading is no guarantee of horse power in the future. :lol:

Two dynos, same bike, different results, it happens all the time. There are a 1,000,001 reasons for this. On the other hand you might get the same reading.

The only way to know where you are at for sure is to have two bikes on the same dyno on the same day. Even then there are some variables run to run.


Ignoring the "dyno factors" HP at the wheel is not solely related to the sum metal parts of the engine.

Ray.

[Tonio600]

Who did ride a 70ish bhp bike this year?

[TP]

I only had 10 horsepower this year. I'm a legend! Just ask Phil, he tells me that all the time.

Or maybe I'm confused with that other word he uses ... starts with w ... sounds like banker ...

[phoenix n max]

Here's Max's - Poor Max :( 49.2

It was still too much for me too
:lol:

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by phoenix n max]

[AK]

Originally posted by Tonio600
Who did ride a 70ish bhp bike this year?

I've no idea:puzzled:

ours made 64 & 65 respectively - as 620's on Mark Hill's dyno.

Snot making a steady 65 and Tango was a steady 64 when we did her last week (with fuelling all over the place)

Snot is now back to 583:(

and Tango needs to have some 'tlc 'done to the mid range in particular.

Tango came with sheets to say she was 66hp, but as we all know Dyno's can read differently:)

C

TP didnt even have 10hp at times:P

[antonye]

Ah yes, but hasn't it been put back to the rules-legal standard? :lol:

[Scooter916]

Originally posted by antonye
Ah yes, but hasn't it been put back to the rules-legal standard? :lol:


PLSL I was thinking the same...
Dont worry Lin mine was exactly the same as yours...
Glyn

[JPM]

Originally posted by TP
I only had 10 horsepower this year.

And still managed to highside - I guess that's why you are a LEGEND!!! ;)

[AK]

Originally posted by antonye
Ah yes, but hasn't it been put back to the rules-legal standard? :lol:
do you mean Snotty?:puzzled: - is that for CC?

[Edited on 11-11-2005 by CK and AK]

[phoenix n max]

Originally posted by Scooter916

Dont worry Lin mine was exactly the same as yours...
Glyn

Methinks Max was probably the lowest - but he was consistant all year at least :lol: and we did nothing other than change belts and oil.

[TP]

Originally posted by JPM
Originally posted by TP
I only had 10 horsepower this year.

And still managed to highside - I guess that's why you are a LEGEND!!! ;)

It takes a special talent ... ;)

[antonye]

Originally posted by CK and AK
Originally posted by antonye
Ah yes, but hasn't it been put back to the rules-legal standard? :lol:
do you mean Snotty?:puzzled: - is that for CC?


Just a general comment with all these figures being bandied around! ;)

[Griff 64]

Had the pleasure of riding with Couchcommando at Cadwell on 1st November and had a write laugh.Very intresting to see the speed of a top DD bike especially along the start finish straight.My 900ss has altered gearing DP Titanium cans and filter but otherwise standard road bike.With a similar exit from Barn to Couch i could pass on power by the start line.This is a novelty on a SS on any reasonable straight and must show what a approx 20 bhp difference looks like Hanging on to him for the rest of the lap was a damn site more difficult.The commando can sure overtake!!!

[domski]

Assuming that you've had the hi-comp pistons changed back to stock ones (assuming it had hi-comp pistons) and now it makes 61bhp - it must have made more than 61bhp with the hi-comp pistons, right?

The highest bhp figure I understand was 68bhp.

Therefore, the difference between Geoff's 'imaginary' 61bhp and the top figure of 68bhp is actually 7bhp, and probably nearer to 2-3bhp.

Rattler's 620 literally had end cans and a filter (maybe a PC3??) and that made 61bhp - So I don't believe that Geoff's bike which was built by Baines (arguably the best 2-valve shop in the UK) could only muster 61bhp as well. What do you honestly think?

Maybe I'm just too cynical???

Anyway, it doesn't matter what power it makes, coz you're not out there to win are you - it's all for fun!

:P

[twpd]

Originally posted by couchcommando
I am well confused, my bike has been built to the 2006 spec, a lot of new items and it has 61hp at the rear wheel. It is running perfect ? Maybe people are tuning the dyno readings and not the engines ? ;) ;)

So just where do the 70hp claims come from ? Are we really believing them ? Are we believing our DD engines can really match an SV650 with it's twin cams, 4 valves and water cooling ?

Please discuss ? :) :)

Dynos vary and the output measured depends upon many factors including the operator and whether or not it's been calibrated,

Can a DD bike match an SV? Almost certainly. Stock SV's can vary from 58bhp (lowestI know about) to about 65bhp stock. My racer was only chucking out 64bhp mid-season although I managed to tweak it up to 70.5bhp in the end. Many of the carbed SV Minitwin bikes are in the 64-66bhp bracket with pipes, filters and dynojet kits.

[Rattler]

Originally posted by domski
Assuming that you've had the hi-comp pistons changed back to stock ones (assuming it had hi-comp pistons) and now it makes 61bhp - it must have made more than 61bhp with the hi-comp pistons, right?

The highest bhp figure I understand was 68bhp.

Therefore, the difference between Geoff's 'imaginary' 61bhp and the top figure of 68bhp is actually 7bhp, and probably nearer to 2-3bhp.

Rattler's 620 literally had end cans and a filter (maybe a PC3??) and that made 61bhp - So I don't believe that Geoff's bike which was built by Baines (arguably the best 2-valve shop in the UK) could only muster 61bhp as well. What do you honestly think?

Maybe I'm just too cynical???

Anyway, it doesn't matter what power it makes, coz you're not out there to win are you - it's all for fun!

:P

Mine made 50.8 with cans and filter, then I fitted the PCIII - didn't dyno after that, but I figure it must've given another 2 bhp or so.

Tim

[NBs996]

Never had mine on the dyno, but I could pull a few inches out of Rattler on the straights and lose a few on Geoff. So I'd guess on somewhere around the 60 mark, give or take a couple.
My steed was of a similar breed to the rattly one, same bike with pipes and filter.

CC, it wasn't the bike that won the championship, it was a very impressive pilot (from what I saw from a distance!). You'de better be good dude, that bike's not used to finishing mid-pack!!

[TP]

Nick - no offence mate but the fact that you weigh around 2/3's of my body weight makes a HUGE difference!

I think you're weight helped you get out of corners and off the line better. Well that's what I reckon anyway.

[domski]

Originally posted by Rattler
Mine made 50.8 with cans and filter, then I fitted the PCIII - didn't dyno after that, but I figure it must've given another 2 bhp or so.

Tim

I reckon the PCIII must have added about 12bhp if it made 50.8 without it :lol:

:P

[domski]

Originally posted by TP
Nick - no offence mate but the fact that you weigh around 2/3's of my body weight

Since when was 7 stones, 2/3rds of 18??? :lol:

[TP]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by TP
Nick - no offence mate but the fact that you weigh around 2/3's of my body weight

Since when was 7 stones, 2/3rds of 18??? :lol:

HA!

Try 14 stone 10 pounds. Although that is still quite heavy :(

[couchcommando]

LOL I love dyno talk ;)

FWIW i took the bike straight down to the dyno place when I bought it, this also being straight after the Cadwell DD round, it made 61 hp exactly as it finished Cadwell races.
It seems about right as on the trackday Grib was on our tweaked RS250 which was identical on the straights :)

We're just setting up the turbo this week ;)



[Edited on 11-11-2005 by couchcommando]

[boggy 8]

Originally posted by domski
Assuming that you've had the hi-comp pistons changed back to stock ones (assuming it had hi-comp pistons) and now it makes 61bhp - it must have made more than 61bhp with the hi-comp pistons, right?

The highest bhp figure I understand was 68bhp.

Therefore, the difference between Geoff's 'imaginary' 61bhp and the top figure of 68bhp is actually 7bhp, and probably nearer to 2-3bhp.

Rattler's 620 literally had end cans and a filter (maybe a PC3??) and that made 61bhp - So I don't believe that Geoff's bike which was built by Baines (arguably the best 2-valve shop in the UK) could only muster 61bhp as well. What do you honestly think?

Maybe I'm just too cynical???

Anyway, it doesn't matter what power it makes, coz you're not out there to win are you - it's all for fun!

:P

I had my bike dyno'd on the same dyno as CC before fitting the high comp pistons and it produced 61bhp. After fitting the high comp pistons it produced 60.2bhp, I don't know the reason for this but it can be confirmed by SJR Dyno at Ruddington, Notts. I will telephone them myself tomorrow for peace of mind that I haven't "imagined" the whole thing!!

I did not want the expense of putting the pistons back in for the sake of 0.8bhp. At the end of the day I still managed to beat a bike with 10% more bhp at Cadwell without spending a penny.

[AK]

CC - dont forget the nitrous too;)

Antonye - Snot is back to 48hp at 583 std - exactly what she was doing at Cadwell Woodland for the first meeting:) - and double checked last week on the same dyno she was on just before the first race. (same as Skids/ Senna/ Rattler/ Psychlist/ DLS have used)

seems such a shame to see the 620 engine on the floor of the garage....... ;)

C:)

[AK]

so - whose bike WAS making 70 hp then?:puzzled:

or was it bar room talk?

[AK]

Alan here:

Peak horsepower can mean diddly ****.

Power is not the be all & end all - as Geoff has proved.

Geoff won the series - well done mate:D

Its all down to good riding too.

Best prepped bike could be at the back, if rider not good enough.
Andy rode snot with 48 hp at Cadwell first meeting and was 6th & then 5th - A bike running far less then many behind it.

Same scenario: Andy cops a 2nd & a 5th with the Snot (now running 620 & 65hp) at Donny - Doug as a complete newbie rides the same bike at Brands, comes in 30th in each race.

Experience is what counts

I'll shut up now, and leave you to it

:)

Alan

[NBs996]

Originally posted by TP
Nick - no offence mate but the fact that you weigh around 2/3's of my body weight makes a HUGE difference!

I think you're weight helped you get out of corners and off the line better. Well that's what I reckon anyway.

No doubt about it dude.
Monty gave me some power to weight figures and it worked out the equivalent of about 4bhp over the donut munchers.

I could've done with some more weight at Donny tho!

[boggy 8]

Originally posted by CK and AK
Alan here:

Peak horsepower can mean diddly ****.

Power is not the be all & end all - as Geoff has proved.

Geoff won the series - well done mate:D

Its all down to good riding too.

Best prepped bike could be at the back, if rider not good enough.
Andy rode snot with 48 hp at Cadwell first meeting and was 6th & then 5th - A bike running far less then many behind it.

Same scenario: Andy cops a 2nd & a 5th with the Snot (now running 620 & 65hp) at Donny - Doug as a complete newbie rides the same bike at Brands, comes in 30th in each race.

Experience is what counts

I'll shut up now, and leave you to it

:)

Alan

Well said that man!!!

[domski]

Originally posted by boggy 8
At the end of the day I still managed to beat a bike with 10% more bhp at Cadwell without spending a penny.

Well done. That's one hell of an achievement. At your home track too? WOW!!

[phil_h]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by boggy 8
At the end of the day I still managed to beat a bike with 10% more bhp at Cadwell without spending a penny.

Well done. That's one hell of an achievement. At your home track too? WOW!!

DOWN BOY !
Leeeave it !
:saint:

[skidlids]

As CK said I had my bike on the same Dyno as Rattler, Pscyhlist and Senna3 all there on the same day.
My 583 knocked out exactly the same peak power as Senna3's 675, making mine just as powerful ! that is until you looked futher down the rev range where the difference grew to around 5bhp in favour of the 675, so its not all down to peak power, more to do with power under the curve, sometimes a bit of top end power will be traded for mid range grunt, quite often the case when Hi Comp pistons are used without any cylinder head work as you get a bigger bang for your fuel load but outright power is still limited by the flow rate through the head.
Be interesting to know how a 68bhp bike differs from a 62bhp bike and the 65bhp bike, may just be down to a well designed exhaust that scavanges well matched to perfect fueling, something AK spent a lot of time trying to find.

[NBs996]

I say Turbo the fekers!
Go on AK, you know you want to!

[antonye]

Originally posted by NBs996
I say Turbo the fekers!
Go on AK, you know you want to!

Don't tempt him! :lol:

[AK]

hmmm, dont tempt me.


I happen to have a turbo technics T2 renault 5 turbo sitting in the garage...........:D shall i not fit it to my road bike now, but keep for a long straight somewhere? ;)

to supercharge would be better as you would have the constant power:smug::smug:

skids you are totally right about the mid range, that is where on a like for like rider basis, the bike with better mid range will come out tops every time.

Alan

[Andy#99]

Originally posted by CK and AK
hmmm, dont tempt me.


I happen to have a turbo technics T2 renault 5 turbo sitting in the garage...........:D shall i not fit it to my road bike now, but keep for a long straight somewhere? ;)

to supercharge would be better as you would have the constant power:smug::smug:

skids you are totally right about the mid range, that is where on a like for like rider basis, the bike with better mid range will come out tops every time.

Alan

Skids and AK....I can't get my head round all this "mid-range" power stuff....I can't remember a single corner of a single race at a single circuit where my rev.counter went below 7000 rpm!!!!!! On the road, on an A-B "squirt" I can understand the advantage of lots of squidgy torque, but I don't see that happening in anger on the track!

So...peak power for me every time please!

Andy #99
.

[couchcommando]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by boggy 8
At the end of the day I still managed to beat a bike with 10% more bhp at Cadwell without spending a penny.

Well done. That's one hell of an achievement. At your home track too? WOW!!

Just maybe he won at other tracks too ;)

Some people will always blame their bikes or the track, whilst never realising that it could be the rider........

[domski]

Originally posted by couchcommando
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by boggy 8
At the end of the day I still managed to beat a bike with 10% more bhp at Cadwell without spending a penny.

Well done. That's one hell of an achievement. At your home track too? WOW!!

Just maybe he won at other tracks too ;)

Some people will always blame their bikes or the track, whilst never realising that it could be the rider........

Honestly Tony, you have no idea what you're talking about do you.

Your smug postings won't get a rise out of me, but your clearly trying to push peoples buttons.

BORING!!!!!!

Go polish your bike and think up some excuses for why you can't win on it next year - apart from it being 'just for fun and you don't care'

YAWN!!!

[AK]

Andy#99 - might be best mate, if you pop round for a natter about the difference in the torque from mid range and the overall top hp.
Basically its the better driving force out of corners if you have a better mid range.

Too long for me to type, but can explain better if talking

Alan

[couchcommando]

Wow Dom, what a sore loser.....

[Grib]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by boggy 8
At the end of the day I still managed to beat a bike with 10% more bhp at Cadwell without spending a penny.

Well done. That's one hell of an achievement. At your home track too? WOW!!

Bloody hell...handbags at 20 paces!

Geoff...if you ever want to take my 583 out next year against the 620s to settle all this general bullsh*t, you're more than welcome :D It should have a genuine 45bhp, if you can handle it!

[Edited on 12-11-2005 by Grib]

[twpd]

Heyup! Fred Deleeter is at work here. ;)

[domski]

Originally posted by Grib
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by boggy 8
At the end of the day I still managed to beat a bike with 10% more bhp at Cadwell without spending a penny.

Well done. That's one hell of an achievement. At your home track too? WOW!!

Bloody hell...handbags at 20 paces!

Geoff...if you ever want to take my 583 out next year against the 620s to settle all this general bullsh*t, you're more than welcome :D It should have a genuine 45bhp, if you can handle it!

[Edited on 12-11-2005 by Grib]

He wouldn't win.

[Grib]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by Grib


Bloody hell...handbags at 20 paces!

Geoff...if you ever want to take my 583 out next year against the 620s to settle all this general bullsh*t, you're more than welcome :D It should have a genuine 45bhp, if you can handle it!

[Edited on 12-11-2005 by Grib]

He wouldn't win.

We'll probably never know...

[domski]

Originally posted by couchcommando
Wow Dom, what a sore loser.....

I'm not a loser, let alone a sore loser.

I just can't stand all this sycophantic ********!!

Get over yourselves, stop kissing Geoff's arse, trying to wind each other up (that goes for everyone) and if you can't say anything positive or constructive (without kissing ass or taking the pee) then keep it to yourselves!!

[domski]

Originally posted by Grib
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by Grib


Bloody hell...handbags at 20 paces!

Geoff...if you ever want to take my 583 out next year against the 620s to settle all this general bullsh*t, you're more than welcome :D It should have a genuine 45bhp, if you can handle it!

[Edited on 12-11-2005 by Grib]

He wouldn't win.

We'll probably never know...

Geoff isn't stupid enough to ride a 583 against the 70bhp 620's.

While I'm on this subject, I don't think Geoff is crap, he has proved he's a good rider, but it irritates me that people think he's a race god!

Who did he beat?

[couchcommando]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by couchcommando
Wow Dom, what a sore loser.....

I'm not a loser, let alone a sore loser.

I just can't stand all this sycophantic ********!!

Get over yourselves, stop kissing Geoff's arse, trying to wind each other up (that goes for everyone) and if you can't say anything positive or constructive (without kissing ass or taking the pee) then keep it to yourselves!!

Hate to be pedantic and a stickler for details but you didn't win :sniff:

[Grib]

Nobody said he was a God of any kind, he was just the best of the people he was riding against...can't be any more or less than that. The usual British attitude of trying to shoot down successful people seems to be in full swing here though!

[twpd]

Originally posted by domski
Who did he beat?

Ummm.... you and a whole host of others. Repeatedly and convincingly. :lol:

I'm surprised you had to ask that question really - it wasn't a trick question, was it Dom?

[domski]

Originally posted by couchcommando
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by couchcommando
Wow Dom, what a sore loser.....

I'm not a loser, let alone a sore loser.

I just can't stand all this sycophantic ********!!

Get over yourselves, stop kissing Geoff's arse, trying to wind each other up (that goes for everyone) and if you can't say anything positive or constructive (without kissing ass or taking the pee) then keep it to yourselves!!

Hate to be pedantic and a stickler for details but you didn't win :sniff:

So everyone in Desmo Due are losers?

[domski]

Originally posted by twpd
Originally posted by domski
Who did he beat?

Ummm.... you and a whole host of others. Repeatedly and convincingly. :lol:

I'm surprised you had to ask that question really - it wasn't a trick question, was it Dom?

I know WHO he beat, but WHO did he beat?

Jeez, not a hard one was it? :lol:

It was hardly a grid of hardened racers - about 5 people had previously raced, some not for years, and some only once or twice - the other 25 were novices.

That's WHO he beat.

AND... I'm not taking it away from Geoff, you can only beat the people put in front of you.

Fair play to Geoff, he won - but I'm not gunna crawl up his arse.

[couchcommando]

Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by couchcommando
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by couchcommando
Wow Dom, what a sore loser.....

I'm not a loser, let alone a sore loser.

I just can't stand all this sycophantic ********!!

Get over yourselves, stop kissing Geoff's arse, trying to wind each other up (that goes for everyone) and if you can't say anything positive or constructive (without kissing ass or taking the pee) then keep it to yourselves!!

Hate to be pedantic and a stickler for details but you didn't win :sniff:

So everyone in Desmo Due are losers?

Read into it what you will, if I don't win a race I am a loser in that race.

Want to borrow my Dictionary, I've just bought it and it's the fastest bestest spelling championship winning dictionary in the land ? :lol::lol:

[twpd]

Originally posted by domski
I know WHO he beat, but WHO did he beat?

Jeez, not a hard one was it? :lol:

It was hardly a grid of hardened racers - about 5 people had previously raced, some not for years, and some only once or twice - the other 25 were novices.

That's WHO he beat.

AND... I'm not taking it away from Geoff, you can only beat the people put in front of you.

Fair play to Geoff, he won - but I'm not gunna crawl up his arse.

It doesn't matter who he beat - I know exactly what you said and meant. Whatever, to win any race is an achievement irrespective of whether or not the field was full of hardened racers. The truth is he kicked your arse repeatedly and you are supposed to be an accomplished racer with podium results. That you also got beaten by novices fairly often doesn't make you look that good, does it?

I don't see anybody crawling up Geoff's arse here but, I do sense you being so far up your own that you can neither see daylight or smell coffee.

[domski]

Originally posted by twpd
...to win any race is an achievement irrespective of whether or not the field was full of hardened racers.

I agree entirely.

The truth is he kicked your arse repeatedly and you are supposed to be an accomplished racer with podium results.

That's right, 6 years ago. I raced for 2 years and did 20 races (that's 40 less than Couch commando did this year).

Since then I have owned a road bike (zx7) for 2 months, done 2 trackdays and 3 races in 2001, and 2 races in 2003.

That's how accomplished I am.

Geoff seems like a legend now doesn't he.

That you also got beaten by novices fairly often doesn't make you look that good, does it?

Except when I rode without a broken arm, not in the rain or at Cadwell - So just at Brands then really where I was only beaten by 620's with 10bhp more.

I don't see anybody crawling up Geoff's arse here but, I do sense you being so far up your own that you can neither see daylight or smell coffee.

You obviously don't follow the series close enough.

Luckily I'm so far up my own arse that I can still see the computer screen and reply to your post.

[skidlids]

I could add my 2 cents worth on the above debate about riders performances but I will refrain from doing so.
As I would rather answer Andy's question

Originally posted by Andy#99
Skids and AK....I can't get my head round all this "mid-range" power stuff....I can't remember a single corner of a single race at a single circuit where my rev.counter went below 7000 rpm!!!!!! On the road, on an A-B "squirt" I can understand the advantage of lots of squidgy torque, but I don't see that happening in anger on the track!

So...peak power for me every time please!

Andy #99
.

When I rode Senna3's 675 at Llandow after just hoping off my 583 the first thing I noticed was how much stronger it pulled out of corners, below 7K you may as well knock mine down another gear as its loosing out as power has dropped to about 44bhp, where as the 675 has only dropped to 47bhp, the 675 can allow the revs to drop to 6.5k before its power drops to 44bhp although this is a bit pointless the best thing is for the 675 to run slightly higher gearing than the 583 and use exactly the same rev range and use the few extra bhp to pull the taller gearing which equates to it going faster.
I'm fairly certain my lap times around places like Castle Combe and Cadwell full circuit would be roughly a second a lap quicker if I was on a 675.