D57 Termi's

[uncledunnie]

First impressions.

Weight, not sure how much the titanium rear box saves but the bike definately feels lighter, both on the move and when being pushed around.

Sound, they wail. I could'nt see a BS stamp on the originals and the Termi's have no markings whatsoever. I wonder how that sits with PC Plod?

Fit, my only concern is that the rear-most pipe is very close to the swing-arm.

Performance, I notice a considerable difference. The bike has covered 2500mls and it was run in "hard". It is much more free revving throughout the whole rev range and feels like its breathing naturally compared to standard, which I always felt was somewhat suffercated. It pulls strongly now up to the limiter even in 5th and 6th, with no noticable fuelling problems or "holes". On the over-run theres no popping so I feel that the new chip is doing its job. The front lofts very easily now in 1st on standard gearing. I have noticed an increase in vibration above 6000 rpm.

Picky attached. In case any one is interested my rear end chop was cheaply sorted. Fit a single LED in the remote number plate wiring hole in the main light cluster (£15) and fabricate a simple 80-85 deg bracket to carry the number plate (I used an offcut of 1.5mm stainless sheet), fixed to the rear light mounting bolts between the plastic housing and the heat shield not forgetting some thread lock to counteract the reduced effective threadlength. (The Casoli kit is about £50)

[uncledunnie]

picky....

[stephens]

You aren't kidding about a lack of clearance with the swing arm!

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but are you planning on getting a dyno run of the bike? I've been told that the 57mm system needs RS cams, compression and gasflowing of the heads to make them work properly, but I'm not convinced.

[uncledunnie]

The earliest that the bike will be on a dyno is November, its off to Sigma Performance this Autumn for a "Full Monty" and hopefully the magic they work will optimise the effect of the new pipes without major tuning, as has been suggested to you as being essential.

The thing is that the 57's are a good starting point. They allow the gases to exit asap and maximise the effect of any further tuning work at the business end.

As I understand it the fundemental tuning rule with twins is - big air in and big air out.

It will be interesting to see how much of a difference setting up clearances, settings and fueling acurately will make before spending money on new parts.

If anyone has any feedback on Sigma's work I would be interested to hear what you have to say.

[KeefyB]

[i]Originally posted by uncledunnie
Picky attached. In case any one is interested my rear end chop was cheaply sorted. Fit a single LED in the remote number plate wiring hole in the main light cluster (£15) and fabricate a simple 80-85 deg bracket to carry the number plate (I used an offcut of 1.5mm stainless sheet), fixed to the rear light mounting bolts between the plastic housing and the heat shield not forgetting some thread lock to counteract the reduced effective threadlength. (The Casoli kit is about £50)
Or 27 quid from Italia Moto,Lincoln.

[Dibble]

Uncledunnie,

For feedback on Neils (Sigma Performance) work I can put you in touch with a friend who had his 916 "Full Monty'ed" a few weeks ago, to say he was impressed would be mild ....

Neils work is very well carried out and he currently has my 996 in his grubby mitts at the minute doing some remedial work for me ....

I will be getting mine "Monteyed" at the next 12000 mile service (in about 1800 miles) but will get the "Grunter" cam settings .....

Dibble

[stephens]

Does experience with the 916/996 really translate to the 999? I have reservations even with the 998, because the exhaust systems are of a different design as well as running larger airboxes.
Sure the basics of setting squish etc apply, as they do with all engines, but I know of at least one championship winning race team that cannot translate experience with tuning the 998S to the 999S. They are running the big exhaust, compression, RS cams, PCIII etc and seeing 138hp at the rear wheel. I am seeing more with the standard motor, PCIII and the asymetrical Termi's on the same type of dyno.

[stephens]

After lots of annoying people, I decided on the 57mm termi system, then discovered that I would probably be waiting months for the kit to arrive.
I called JHP Ductai in Coventry UK, initially for advice on cam timing and dicovered that they actually had some systems in stock! The kit took 3 days from when my credit card was debited to be delivered to my offices. Excellent service indeed.
That was the good bit, but upon close inspection of the system, the welds are crap, there is flash that needs to be ground away on the inside of the pipes, weld dags etc etc. I am going to spend an hour or so cleaning the pipes up before fitting them. Frankly not good enough for a $3K USD system.
Next issue, the system is NOT 57mm, well not as I measure it. Apparently Ducati measures systems based on the largest external diameter of the pipe. In the main the internal diameter of the pipe is 54mm, not the 57mm I expected.
I am going to fit the system tomorrow, hopefully there won't be any issues with fitting.

[uncledunnie]

Sorry to hear about the quality of the JHP system Stehens. Believe me the DP system isn't the best either and I had a 6 months wait too!!!

I had to de-burr the pipes, tidy-up the manifold pipe gasket faces, dry fit the system and then refit using a suitable gasket cement at pipe joints as they were not air tight, some of the pipe "sockets" were even ovoid to start with! Oh, the heat shield on the 2-1-2 link pipe did'nt fit properly either, the welded brackets did not allow sufficient space for the original captive nut assemblies to be used.

Nothing in itself too much trouble, just time. Like you, not what I would expect to do with such expensive equipment.

However, the weld quality is good, especially on the rear box.

I will measure the circumference of the pipes this weekend and do a bit of maths. I'll post the results re-actual diameter.

I have been following the recent power debate threads with much interest and will try to get some dyno time in the next couple of weeks. I am interested to know given everyone elses dissapointment exactly what the bike is putting out. I'll post up the graph soon as.

[yellowisfriedegg]

Mine were fine , welds were all cleaned up nicely straight out of the box , everything fitted exactly , old pipes off , new pipes on under 2 hours :lol:


Then it took ages to change the ECU and filters :(

Check the code on the box for the size , maybe they have sent you 54mm ones instead of 57mm , there are 3 sizes made , 50 , 54 and 57.

Allegedly the 57's rub on the swingarm (mine do) slightly

[stephens]

The system is a Termignoni, I purchased it through JHP. The quality of the welds on the outside looks fine, it is the inside that is terrible.
I used a carbide tip with an air powered high speed grinder to clean it all up.

Had the same problem with the captive nut assemblies and used ground down nuts made to fit.

The system is definately the 57mm. My friends 54mm Termi system measures in at 53.5mm external diameter.

The issue with power seems quite simple as the bikes appear to be very sensitive to cam timing.
I have graphs with three sets of cam timing with a variance of 8rwhp (128-136hp).
The job took around 3hours total, at least one of that was making things fit.

A big thanks to Rob at MPR in Melbourne who showed me how to install the system, lent me his workshop and tools and ended up doing most of the work.

[uncledunnie]

Checked the circumference in a few places and did some maths, then checked the od with a vernier. 57/58mm was the consistant result.

Makes you feel sorry for the people who buy the D50 system!!

I was able to move the link pipe out the way of the swing arm using the limited adjustement in the little offset bracket supplied in the kit. Still damn close tho!

[uncledunnie]

Stephens, first impressions?

Worth the money? Big pipes still a good starting point?

[stephens]

The pipes are very sensitive to cam timing.
They lose out on power1-2hp compared to the 54mm system under 6000rpm and produce that much more thereafter.
The Power Commander has not arrived yet, so I cannot give a verdict yet, but the system is producing about the same power, but with more midrange than my asymetrical exhaust system on the last bike. Setting cam timing resulted in an 8rwhp power increase. The cam timing to be used with thestandard ECU is 107 inlet 108 exhaust measured at the lobe centres. (standard 112,116) I will set up the PC with both this factory setting and the standard setting to compare, but te ECU does not fuel properly standard with standrd cam timing. Another glitch is the ECU has a 10400rpm rev limit. I ended up "borrowing" a Corse ECU which has a 11900 rev limit. Incidently the recommended cam timing works well with the lower rev limit. I will scan and post a dyno graph later, I have got to get rady for a track day now.

[stephens]

I discovered a special tool required to fit the 54 and 57mm exhaust systems, with proper swing arm clearance. Thanks to Tony at Ducati Melbourne, I was shown how to mount the link holding the collector, on the front of the mount welded to the frame, and behind the rubber bushes on the mount attached to the exhaust. Mounting it this way pushes the exhaust clear of the swing arm. The trick is to move the pipe in such a way that the link can be fitted this way. This is done with a special tool that should really come delivered with the system, a tyre iron. Placing a suitably padded (so it doesn't scratch anything) tyre iron between the exhaust and the swing arm, then lever it out, while someone puts the link in place. You need to use plenty of force, because it actually bends the front engine pipe that runs under the sump closer to the centre of the bike. Voila no more clearance problem.

[uncledunnie]

I used a large soft faced hammer.......

Ooohps!

Same result tho'.

Just fitted a 14t lightweight front sprocket. Since my bike gets used mostly on the road I wanted to make it a bit more mannerly in 1st and 2nd.

New bike!! A highly recommended cheap mod for road bike users.

Ooh its a bit of a wheely monster now tho'. No pain, no gain.....

My dyno chart on the D57's straight with the DP chip will be up next wknd. Dyno run booked for friday.

[uncledunnie]

Out of the box, 2 dry run fits, no CO2 mods, no cam dialling........

[uncledunnie]

the last post should of had a dyno scan attached. It said 139.10. I'll work on it later.

My dyno chap overlaid heavily modified 996 and 998 charts, poki-est Duke on the dyno ever.

Relative I know.

If you want noise, buy what you can afford. If you want to develop the 999, buy the biggest pipes you can afford

[uncledunnie]

hope this works!!

[uncledunnie]

hope this works!!

[johnh999s]

So it is true. The bigger the better. Anyone want to trade their 57mm system for my assymetric Termignoni plus cash?? I should have done it properly first time. Or anyone want to sell their 57mm system?

[stephens]

Don't sell your system yet, this is almost identical to my tuned (PCIII) asymetrical Termi results.
The results are also in DIN not SAE. You need to multiply by .986 to convert.
I will post a graph comparing both systems setup properly (PCIII) as soon as I get around to scanning.

http://www.ipn.com.au/ducati/dyno1.jpg
http://www.ipn.com.au/ducati/dyno2.jpg

[Edited on 29-9-2003 by stephens]

[johnh999s]

Hmmm. Food for thought. You'd have thought with the hotter cams, bigger bore pipes and appropriate ECU you'd get more power with D57 and (perhaps) more torque lower down with perhaps a bit more bottom end power with softer cams and more restrictive exhaust. Is your chart 999? Or did you get 's' cams which I believe are identical to mk 1 testastretta i.e/ 996R?

[stephens]

The 999 had 996R cams. It's funny, but I appear to have more data on 999S performance tuning than the Aust factory team!!

[tongpo]

just a few Q's

were these dyno runs all done on the same machine?

also, were there other contributing factors such as air tempreture/humidity/airflow that may have affected any of the dyno runs?

[johnh999s]

I can't answer the questions but I have heard today that there may be some JHP 60mm systems coming soon from his normal supplier. Apparently they may be a bit less money than D57 Termis. Makes you wonder how they'll miss the swinging arm... Probably need a bigger crowbar and soft faced hammer I should think.:lol:

[stephens]

tongpo
The dyno's are the same make and model. The figures displayed are corrected for the ambient conditions. My actual uncorrected power no was 143hp on that run. T?hat is not to say that there is not potentially a 3-5hp discrepancy between the two dyno's, however there was at least that available by having a power commander that would map individual cylinders like the new PCIII USB does on my new bike. Until I see another 4-5hp from the bike, I will not be convinced of the merits of the big bore exhaust systems used on a bike with the factory rev limit.

[uncledunnie]

Interesting point about about the factory set rev limit. My dyno run suggested that had the limit of been set higher the motor would have kept pulling.

It has been suggested to me that the DP ECU I'm running can be (in part) reprogrammed, anyone else heard of this?

This begs a further question, have Ducati made the factory rev limit safe in view of possible valve collet failure at sustained higher rpm? (re - Pro Twins track experience with failed valve collets).

Everyone should have a large hammer in their tool box - if in doubt, give it a clout :P

[stephens]

Yes
The ECU can be reprogrammed. I was given the choice of having mine re-programmed or taking the Corse unit through the Australian race team. John Hackett at JHP can organise this too.

[tongpo]

from what i understand even if it's the same model dyno, they'll still have varying degrees of variance between them....then again it may be a moot point since we're speaking in terms of a few percentage points, which translates to miniscule differences.

[stephens]

News just in, new cam timing has produced a significant power increase, both midrange and top endwith the 57mm termi system. Have been told to expect a final run of 146-147 when I pick up the bike tomorrow morning. (It was already doing 145 with more to come from fine tuning.
Back on the dyno again on Monday/Tuesday with final cam timing to finalise optimum settings.Then we still have compression, airbox/airtubes, ignition timing and heads still to play with!!

[johnh999s]

Congratulations! So faith in termi D57 and logic restored. Who's doing it for you??So back to Anyone want to swap my termi assymetric for D57 plus cash??:D