Banned/edited/censored

[berto]

In the year 2006 do you think it is right for someone/somepeople(not the majority) to force their opinions on what you can read/see....Discuss:saint:

[weeksy2]

nope, i think it's 100% wrong.

i can however to an extent see why clubs like DSC must censor certain things like Dealer comment and criticisms, but on the whole it's very wrong.

A public forum should in theory be exactly that.

[domski]

Vote C

[GsxrAge]

I vote D for dom :lol::lol:

[Fordie]

If it keeps the peace, keeps the sensible option,does'nt involve politics or religion and that the opinion is made by a proper elected official then why not, unless you would rather have anachy. Opinions are like ********s every one's got one, but ever one cant be right other wise thats where things only end up if too many people throw in there opinion. Is'nt that why we have Team Leaders, Manager's, Editor's,Goverments to do it for us. If some one ask's for your opinion. Give it if not Butt out , thats my policy 4D

[Gizmo]

Yes its right that a degree of censorship exists, personally I have no desire to see violence, violent images, exploitation of children etc on for example a motorcycle forum, thats not to say that they should be censored per-se but it should take into account what the viewer or reader expects or its reasonable to assume exists there. But therein lies the problem, who decides what we can and can't see and where can we see it ?:)

if you don't like the rules create your own little virtual world or work within the rues to change them to what you want, thats the other bit that goes with free speech, democracy...

[GsxrAge]

It looks like Berto's post is in reference to his bike for sale posts.

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by AGE996
It looks like Berto's post is in reference to his bike for sale posts.

oh, thats different, thats advertising not a discussion on censorship, but thats probably a bigger can of worms round here than censorship though :D

[Webteam]

Evening,

I will take a further look into what has happened today (I've just walked through the door) and speak to Eamonn tomorrow.

Mark (Flanks.)

[andyb]

I dont think it would be right to discuss...............:lol::frog:

or are you forcing me to discuss?:lol::lol:

[GsxrAge]

Originally posted by Webteam



(I've just walked through the door)

Mark (Flanks.)

Next time open it first :lol::lol::lol:

[Webteam]

Originally posted by AGE996
Originally posted by Webteam



(I've just walked through the door)

Mark (Flanks.)

Next time open it first :lol::lol::lol:

I knew I forgot to do something! :lol:

[madmav]

whoops:cool:

[Davieravie]

Nothing should be banned...apart from the obvious sick crap.....its a public forum for people who ride bikes, Ducatis or not!!!!!

[electricsheep]

Originally posted by Davieravie
Nothing should be banned...apart from the obvious sick crap.....its a public forum for people who ride bikes, Ducatis or not!!!!!

everyone seems to think it is a public forum, but it is not, it is a message board run for a members club, and subject to the rules of the club

[Davieravie]

I accept rules......I used to be Royal Air Force, Ive done more rules than hot dinners....but rules should stay the same for everyone. Thats what gets me down about DSC now.

[Fordie]

Originally posted by electricsheep
Originally posted by Davieravie
Nothing should be banned...apart from the obvious sick crap.....its a public forum for people who ride bikes, Ducatis or not!!!!!

everyone seems to think it is a public forum, but it is not, it is a message board run for a members club, and subject to the rules of the club

I think people forget that little fact some times . 4D

[Edited on 29-1-2006 by Fordie]

[keefer]

the thing that upsets me the most about this whole thing is the winging and belly aching from people who have bee asked quite politely to think about how many adds they have thrown up.
as soon as it happens there like "WELL SO AND SO GETS AWAY WITH IT"
shut up you winging grass, and any way your getting away with it at the mo, nothing has been removed. play the game FFS

[Ian]

Having just read through the original thread that caused the problem and seen the exchange of U2U’s between Berto and the moderator who took the action that so angered Berto I see that there is more to this than just censorship. Threatening, abusive behaviour has and will never be acceptable on this messageboard or within this club. There were a number of requests for Berto to back off but he just kept coming back, - not acceptable.

Now the subject of adverting on this messageboard and what is commercial and what is not is another subject, - and a very difficult one. The MT have always tried to take a view of fairness (believe it or not) but I fear that given recent events we as a club will have to take a tougher or different line on this. We have also have never had strict T’s and C’s for messageboard that require acceptance by the user, - this again will likely change, - a shame in one way as I would have hoped that common sense could have prevailed but instances like this prove that it can no longer be that way.

This messageboard pound for paid up DSC member who uses it is expensive to run, there is a feeling within the club that paid up members are subsidising others for their own gain and that is not right.

Last year or the year before (I forget) at the AGM we discussed the messageboard being private members only, I can see the subject coming up for discussion again. Perhaps DSC roundels next to usernames changes peoples opinions about things like this?

[rockhopper]

As only a small percentage of paid up members actually use the message board then perhaps it will not be a detrimental to the future of the club as it might have been if we were to make it members only.

[Dibble]

Originally posted by rockhopper
As only a small percentage of paid up members actually use the message board then perhaps it will not be a detrimental to the future of the club as it might have been if we were to make it members only.

no, but on the other side this is the quickest way for any paid up member to request assistance / parts / advice etc and a lot of the time that comes from a non paid up member that uses the boards and for their own reasons isn't a member. The club would lose a huge resource pool by privatising the boards.

Also a lot of paid up members come via the board, they get carded, have a look, post maybe two or three times than join, go on rideouts but rarely use the boards.

Closing the boards frm the Dcatisti at large will do far more harm than good ...

That obvioulsy is just my opinion ...

[Jools]

I agree with Dibble. Close the board to the general ducati riding public and you won't have much of a board any more. It's only new blood coming in that keeps the board interesting instead of it becoming a boring talking shop. I can't imagine anything worse than the same clique of people re-running an endless red vs yellow debate or 916 vs 999 yawn.

OK that might be an exageration, but the fact is that by restricting the people you allow to post, you also restrict the amount of interest and some people have a very narrow range of views.

I also agree that some people forget that this is NOT a public forum, but a service paid for by people like me. For myself, I'm quite happy to see people posting up adverts as long as they don't take the ****.

In my opinion, people like Nelly get it dead right. He makes the occasional plug for Cornerspeed, and throws up the occasional deal - but in my view he more than 'pays' for that with the free advice that he gives people on lots of technical questions. Fair exchange of selflessly given advice for the odd plug - I don't mind that at all.

I don't want to see commercial organisations posting on here unchecked, and I don't like to see thinly disguised traders taking advantage either, and to be honest the 1 post newbies who use their first and only post to advertise a bike (even Yamaha's FFS) without any intention of adding any value to the life or spirit of this club really **** me off, but that's just my opinion. On balance I would much rather bite my tongue and let those types of posters continue to use the forum than close it off and let it stagnate into mediocrity - this board has often been highlighted as a real jewel amongst motorcycles forums so if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it.

[Fordie]

and a sensible one at that Mr Dibble, Sir . There is a need for the Market Place section but not if its going down the road of E-bay and glogging up the works . I thought most "roundel's" held dear to this "arrangement" 4D

PS. Does anyone want to buy a fishing rod:lol:

[Gizmo]

I'd agree with Dibble and Jools, closing the forum to non members would lose a lot of what the forum is. However I do feel that one of the "perks" of paying your membership fee could be to allow you to advertise personal items in the marketplace, I don't see why anyone who's not a paying member or a pronto advertiser or supporting dealer should get this, its the members fees and advertisers that support this forum.

[Henners]

Good debate and for me the key points are:

* Keep the messageboard open to all - fresh blood always prevents stagnation, new people are needed in all aspects of club life
* Make the terms and conditions of advertising crystal clear so there is no room for misunderstanding
* Don't tie the Commercial Manager's hands behind his back - allow him to be able to offer value to businesses who want to advertise on the site

[keefer]

ok from what's been said then what about the open forum we have already.
but advertising for members only ?
if not a member you pay a fee for a add


[Edited on 29-1-2006 by keefer]

[Ian]

and what about the question of signatures? Is it ok to advertise through them? Is it ok to advertise other message boards/clubs through them?

[Edited on 29-1-2006 by Ian]

[madmav]

simple solution realy ! Make the sales/and wants a members only area

anyone can post up an advert into the sales/wants area , but only paid up members can view them !

that way, with all the Ducati goodies on sale in here , The coffers would be overflowing with coin.

You could have a Box at the top of the board with "Forsale this week" a few lines and then click here to view!
The paid up memeber would log in with a password
the one time surfer could not.

Eammon could sort that out!
and then the board moderaters can delete ads on the main forum!

waddaya think?

mav

[Redruth]

As far as censorship goes, can't we each individually do our own censorship, up to a point? If I see something I consider offensive on the board, I close that thread and open something else (unless I'm re-reading something I'm about to post, then I just edit it :D)

The webteam seem to do a good job of stepping in and censoring when things get out of hand and I'm glad they are there doing that job, for free! Frankly, I'm surprised to see Flanks has time to go out with this board to keep an eye on 24/7!

I don't agree that this should be a members' only board, either. As has been said, it brings in new blood who may, or may not, decide to get more involved with the club and pay the membership fee. And there's an awful lot of experts out there who post because of their interest in Ducati who may have no interest in the club itself. So what? We shouldn't limit things to just club members. Leave them be and let them have their say.

The only thing I'm slightly concerned about with this discussion is, if I want to sell a bike, I'd want the freedom to post it on here. Similarly, if someone I know and ride with or see at DSC meets had something to sell that I might want, I'd want ot hear about it through the board. It's a very effective grapevine, for those who use it. :sing::sing:

[Webteam]

Originally posted by Dseered
This debate is going to go on and on and on, there needs to be rules and those rules need sticking to, those that don't stick to them get a strike, 3 strikes etc.

It needs to be clear what people can and cannot do, Berto was selling bikes, were they his, I don't know, selling for a mate, whatever, as I say I don't know.

There is someone else on here that does regularly post up things for sale, I have bought from him and have no complaints, it does seem to be one rule for one etc.

Just my opinion, as I am not a member I should butt out anyway :D

In fairness, the radical action I took last night did not just involve censorship in the end. Personal abuse I read last night was reason enough to censor and ban someone from this site, period. Another member had similar abuse put on them during October/September, and I took the same action.

Going back to the censorship last night, the Webteam were advised that someone had posted a bike for sale, which they had no right to advertise. A moderator advised the poster of his concerns, and was met with a wave of severe abuse in my opinion.

There is progress on the rule front, some won't like these rules, some will. Can't please everyone all the time, after all we're only human. But once in place, everybody will know where they stand (i hope). But the rules will be set to please the majority.

Someone said this week in an e mail to me, remember this is a bike club, it's meant to be fun.

Mark (Flanks)

[madmav]

oh ****! looks like the end of the road for me then Mark!:(

[Mark]

You know what they say about old horses....... :P

[madmav]

somebody sttttttttttttttttttttttop me !:lol:

[Sandbar]

Originally posted by keefer
........if not a member you pay a fee for a add
[Edited on 29-1-2006 by keefer]

and then the fee gets added to the price - so who exactly ends up paying??

sandbar
www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk (http://www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk)

.

[Jools]

Originally posted by Sandbar
Originally posted by keefer
........if not a member you pay a fee for a add
[Edited on 29-1-2006 by keefer]

and then the fee gets added to the price - so who exactly ends up paying??

sandbar
www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk (http://www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk)

.

The way that I see it is that every well run business should have a marketing and advertising budget, usually factored into the price of the items that they sell. It's then up to that business where they spend their budget, whether in glossy magazines, small ads in the paper or even the newsagent's window.

Whichever of these you choose, FREE advertising is a rarity. Even if I wanted to sell my bike by sticking a postcard up in the local newsagents it would cost me a couple of quid a week for an advert to Joe Public with no specific interest in bikes.

But if you look at the opportunity that the DSC board currently offers to businesses with Ducati related product, or individuals with a Ducati (or bits of one) to sell. Here is a board that can be accessed worldwide, 24 x 7, every day of the year, is PRECISELY targetted at the audience you want to reach and it's FREE !!!!

Pretty good deal for advertisers isn't it?

As has been mentioned before, this is not a public forum, it's a club message board paid for solely by the paid up members of the club.

It seems to me that individual paid up club members should be able to advertise pretty much what they like. Normally, individual people will only be selling the odd spare part, or bit of bling, and now and then might want to sell a bike. That's fine with me, it's in the spirit of the club and a valuable advantage of this board.

It also seems to me that most of us are tolerant, and happy enough to accept that non-members can, and will, advertise stuff here as well. As Ruth says, the board is largely self regulating and non-members who post up ads for Yamahas and stuff will soon get the **** ripped out of them, but that's their choice if they want to post stuf like that on a Ducati board.

It also seems to me that most people are tolerant enough to accept businesses giving themselves an occasional plug as long as it's proportionate to what they give back to the club in other ways (ie: Cornerspeed with heaps of free advice and member discount, No Limits with a genuine 10% DSC discount).

Where people begin to feel irritated is when non-members and members alike cynically exploit the board for their own self interest. Some people seem to think that once they've paid their £20 a year (less than 50 pence a week) to the club, it entitles them to set up their own version of an eBay shop - again, precisely targetted at their demographic. Once again, if these people are providing a genuine service and are putting back as much into the club as they're getting, in one way or another, then I think that's fine with most people.

All most people seem to be asking is, use the board to advertise what you like, but don't be cynical about it and don't take the **** - Most people will see straight through that so don't be surprised if you're asked to stop advertising. As well as that, don't be surprised if your advertising actually has a negative effect - most people won't buy from people who are ****ing them off.

[weeksy2]

question Jools,

what if the person in question is both a seller and a paid up member of the club ?

As has been mentioned before, this is not a public forum, it's a club message board paid for solely by the paid up members of the club

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Sandbar
Originally posted by keefer
........if not a member you pay a fee for a add
[Edited on 29-1-2006 by keefer]

and then the fee gets added to the price - so who exactly ends up paying??

sandbar
www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk (http://www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk)

.

I’ll play devils advocate, advertising and marketing helps sell more product, in some areas, like carbon fibre , mould costs have a major influence on the finished costs, selling more splits that mould cost and reduces the price for the consumer. On top of that carbon production is labour intensive so for good pricing you need to source cheap labour, that’s not the UK, its China or Taiwan but you can’t go there without volume that’s where marketing and advertising comes in again, it increases the volume to levels where it is cost effective and reduces the price to the consumer or allows the manufacture to invest in new technologies and materials and gives the consumer more choice and better quality. The end result is the customer gets cheaper prices and better kit that’s how every everything else works, electrical goods, computers even motorbikes.

So yes, advertising does have a cost to the advertiser but no, it doesn’t always mean the customer pays for the product, they might actually pay less.......

[Gizmo]

Nicely put Jools.

Originally posted by Jools
Originally posted by Sandbar
Originally posted by keefer
........if not a member you pay a fee for a add
[Edited on 29-1-2006 by keefer]

and then the fee gets added to the price - so who exactly ends up paying??

sandbar
www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk (http://www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk)

.

The way that I see it is that every well run business should have a marketing and advertising budget, usually factored into the price of the items that they sell. It's then up to that business where they spend their budget, whether in glossy magazines, small ads in the paper or even the newsagent's window.

Whichever of these you choose, FREE advertising is a rarity. Even if I wanted to sell my bike by sticking a postcard up in the local newsagents it would cost me a couple of quid a week for an advert to Joe Public with no specific interest in bikes.

But if you look at the opportunity that the DSC board currently offers to businesses with Ducati related product, or individuals with a Ducati (or bits of one) to sell. Here is a board that can be accessed worldwide, 24 x 7, every day of the year, is PRECISELY targetted at the audience you want to reach and it's FREE !!!!

Pretty good deal for advertisers isn't it?

As has been mentioned before, this is not a public forum, it's a club message board paid for solely by the paid up members of the club.

It seems to me that individual paid up club members should be able to advertise pretty much what they like. Normally, individual people will only be selling the odd spare part, or bit of bling, and now and then might want to sell a bike. That's fine with me, it's in the spirit of the club and a valuable advantage of this board.

It also seems to me that most of us are tolerant, and happy enough to accept that non-members can, and will, advertise stuff here as well. As Ruth says, the board is largely self regulating and non-members who post up ads for Yamahas and stuff will soon get the **** ripped out of them, but that's their choice if they want to post stuf like that on a Ducati board.

It also seems to me that most people are tolerant enough to accept businesses giving themselves an occasional plug as long as it's proportionate to what they give back to the club in other ways (ie: Cornerspeed with heaps of free advice and member discount, No Limits with a genuine 10% DSC discount).

Where people begin to feel irritated is when non-members and members alike cynically exploit the board for their own self interest. Some people seem to think that once they've paid their £20 a year (less than 50 pence a week) to the club, it entitles them to set up their own version of an eBay shop - again, precisely targetted at their demographic. Once again, if these people are providing a genuine service and are putting back as much into the club as they're getting, in one way or another, then I think that's fine with most people.

All most people seem to be asking is, use the board to advertise what you like, but don't be cynical about it and don't take the **** - Most people will see straight through that so don't be surprised if you're asked to stop advertising. As well as that, don't be surprised if your advertising actually has a negative effect - most people won't buy from people who are ****ing them off.

[Jools]

Not my point Weeksy.

Member or non-member you should be able to post adverts here as long as you give something back to the club in some small way and don't take the ****.

By definition that means that paid up members have contributed more to the club simply by paying their dues. They may also contribute more than the non-member by turning up at ride outs, supporting DD or doing something at the BMF etc.

That means that personally, I'm prepared to cut paid up members more slack before I consider that they're taking the **** - but not to the point where they're using the site as a trader or continually plugging their commercial venture.

It's quite easy really, you should give back to the club what you take out and if you do I don't have a problem with anybody, but if someone is all take....doesn't matter whether they're paid up or not, after all £20 is less than a round on a Friday night, so it shouldn't entitle you to endless ads

[Henners]

Spot on Jools :)



PS I'm reliable informed that £20 will buy more than a round on a Friday night in Bangalore ;)

[Edited on 30-1-2006 by Henners]

[Mr C]

The Forum should be kept public, if we start asking people to pay £25 to access the forum just to ask Ducati owners opinions on what to look for when buy a second hand Ducati then what kind of impression will that leave.
As for buying an selling on the board.. So bloody what. If someone is able to offer a good deal well Yippee i say.

[Sandbar]

Originally posted by Gizmo

So yes, advertising does have a cost to the advertiser but no, it doesn’t always mean the customer pays for the product, they might actually pay less.......
I think you missed 'more' out of that.

But - trust me on this - at any particular time the consumer is paying for the advertising. In the long term loads of advertising and increases in production may give rise to cheaper methods of production and lower prices for the consumer.

But it might take a while and also it might not happen at all. Carbon fibre, with the continued demand from the American Military and Boeing together with the sudden insatiable demand from Airbus Industries, might be a case in point.

I think all these recent posts are all pretty much in agreement. And I agree with them.

There is no such thing as 'uncensored'. As with all these things there is always a line to be drawn. It is just a question of where it is drawn, who draws it and who enforces it and how!!

sandbar
www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk (http://www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk)

.

[Mark]

Mr C, there is no question about a charge to access the website. It won't happen. I could name a few sites which do. We prefer the open to all method.

Traders pay to advertise in Pronto, so why should the website be anything differant? The website costs the club money to run, so why not as a club make some revenue to help pay for it? We're not talking about members advertising a bit of bling, or a part they or bike they no longer require.

To be honest, Jools comments best sum up the subject in both his posts above.

[antonye]

Locking the Market Place section to paid up members only seems to be a pretty attractive looking way to go. This would not detract anyone from view/posting the rest of the forum and would still encourage new and prospective members to take part. Anything posted "for sale" or "wanted" outside of this simply gets deleted.

The only thing I could see stopping this is the sale of bikes, which may be a lure to new or potential members. Maybe sectioning the Parts/Accessories/General from the Bikes would help with this? Maybe making the Bikes For Sale viewable to anyone, but only paid up members could post into this section. The other market place sections would stay readable/postable only to members.

Thoughts?

[weeksy2]

it just worries me Jools, that the 1 group losing out will be the people you are trying to protect, be that either by person XYZ not advertising items at all... or the person having to advertise at a higher cost and the mmebers losing out again.

[AK]

another solution on one website I use has now adopted the following:

Links permitted in sigs, but advertising banners not except your own business.

Sales from non-members have to be submitted, and they are then placed on the sales section within 3 days of submission.
Paid up members can submit ads direct onto site.

Not saying either of the above would be worth adopting, but might be worth some consideration?

[Gizmo]

Sorry I did miss “more”

You’ll have to believe me when I say I understand it, I’m responsible for global marketing for a company who are currently running a feasibility study on a carbon fibre swingarm, not for motorcycles but the methods involved are identical. That involves predicting sales, balancing against labour and tooling costs and working out whether to invest in marketing to make it feasible to do off shore, and yes, advertising is an investment.


Advertising does have a “cost” but in most cases its actually a benefit to the consumer, you could add sponsorship into that cost but I’d think most racers here are happy when they find a sponsor, they don’t consider its other consumers paying for that :)

Nowt’s free in life and like you say most here are in agreement, we just need guidelines so its the same for everyone.


Originally posted by Sandbar
Originally posted by Gizmo

So yes, advertising does have a cost to the advertiser but no, it doesn’t always mean the customer pays for the product, they might actually pay less.......
I think you missed 'more' out of that.

But - trust me on this - at any particular time the consumer is paying for the advertising. In the long term loads of advertising and increases in production may give rise to cheaper methods of production and lower prices for the consumer.

But it might take a while and also it might not happen at all. Carbon fibre, with the continued demand from the American Military and Boeing together with the sudden insatiable demand from Airbus Industries, might be a case in point.

I think all these recent posts are all pretty much in agreement. And I agree with them.

There is no such thing as 'uncensored'. As with all these things there is always a line to be drawn. It is just a question of where it is drawn, who draws it and who enforces it and how!!

sandbar
www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk (http://www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk)

.

[Gizmo]

How about only paying members can post non commercial ads, ie their own bikes or bits bought they they no longer want. Anyone can then view those ads so its a bigger audience than the other way round of only members can view. Moderate as CK suggested

Anyone can post in wanted but this is moderated prior to the post appearing.

Introduce a commercial banner area on every page of the site which is paid for on small monthly payments by commercial business, set a contention ratio for those banners, provide software to allow advertisers to view the views and click through and change their own banners so it takes little management?? it also means the advertiser gets a higher profile placement. if needed run 2 sizes with different pricing structures.

no commercial adverts in sigs, by commercial I'll clarify - for profit or gain, selling bits you've bought and now don't want rarely results in profit, buying stuff with the intention of selling it or a service for profit is.

recommendations in sigs allowed - by that its services you feel happy to recommend to other members, set a limit of say 2, no images or logos on this allowed.

[itexuk]

I'm totally against altering the rules, the MAJORITY of people, members or not, do not abuse the forum.
You are talking about altering the rules because of the VERY SMALL numbers who do take liberty's and by doing that the MAJORITY will suffer.

[nelly]

I usually try and keep out of these discussions, for obvious reasons, but as i've been mentioned let me try and get my point of view over.

Firstly, from a "members" point of view.

I've been a member of this club longer than i've been making a living from working on Ducatis.
I've always posted, or tried to post, on the message board as "Nelly". I joined this club, and have remained so, because of the passion I hold for the marque. This club and the people who make up the club, hold and portray my personal views and passions of the marque in the closest way of the other clubs available to me and that's why I remain loyal to the DSC.
Although unwritten, I "know" the rules. Those of the board, the club and in general those relating to common sense and politeness.
I abide by them as much as possible. Once I kicked Cornerspeed into existence, it became more difficult, but I believe I do the best I can. I've over stepped the mark once but it got sorted in an adult manner and it's now history.
Should the fact that I have day to day experience of Ducati and their problems stop me from posting? I personally don't think so. The regular board members know full well what I do, but a newbie may not, so what's the problem with helping out? If that's advertising, because my sig carries a link, then let me know and I'll bite my tongue and stick to taking the pi55 and having a laugh. Actually, i'd more than likely pull my sig :)
So as not to appear hypocritical I've bitten my tongue on several occasions when I've known full well that a post is from a trader selling stuff on here. I'd love to join in with some of the posts, especially from the maestro who is JPM, to voice my opinion on what is a blatant **** take. As Jools said, it's the perfect platform. Virtually 100% of the target audience will be interested to some extent in what you're selling. Why shouldn't it be paid for?

From a traders point of view.

I started Cornerspeed for the same reasons as I joined the club. It was a massive gamble but I had to give it a shot. It was my lifelong dream.
I'll be the first to stand up and state that without the support I got and still get from this club and it's members it would have been far more difficult, maybe even have failed.
I don't see myself as some big hitting entrapaneur. I do what I do because I love doing it. I work hard and with a bit of luck every now and then things are coming together. I learn every day and one thing I know is that advertising costs. Directly, or indirectly.
For me, this club is the best advertising I can get and whilst the personal recomendations I get from members/customers are essentially FOC, I feel I have a moral obligation to give something back. I do this with my membership and my advert in Pronto. I give up as much advice and help as I can, but that's primarily because I can and that I want to, but if it's seen as adding value to the club for it's members then so be it.
As mentioned, I also offer a discount to paid up members. I don't have accurate records of what this is worth but it was in excess of £4000 last year. Yep, that's £4k out of my pocket in discounts on servicing, P&P etc. I've even suggested new customers sign up to the club so they get their £30 or so off a service. Why? Because it helps the club and enables me to put something back.
Look at what this club has done in the past few years. How much it has grown. What it provides. Why shouldn't traders be charged for advertising on here? Beats me. IMO, if you're in the market for selling product to Ducati owners then there isn't a better place in the UK, possibly even Europe and further afield to do it. I've sold product to Spain, Sweden, Holland, France even the US and that's without even really trying.
I know I couldn't even begin to put a value on that kind of advertising.

I think the webteam do an excellent job of monitoring the site. Most posters know the rules and police them theirselves. The rules, written or unwritten, are there to be upheld and if someone over steps the mark, then pull them up. I personally think they are pretty lenient.
These people do it for nothing, in their own time, and if they start getting personal abuse for doing it then the perputrator deserves to get their post pulled. Tough ****. If there's any doubt, what's wrong with a quick U2U or a mail to check??
I don't see that as censorship...............

Finally, what beats me is why topics like this go on for so long and get so much attention.
BDG started a thread about "what a good job the webteam do"........ how many joined in on that one? Why does it appear to be that everyone wants to have a dig, yet very few want to praise?
Look at the bigger picture and what you have here. It's an amazing place to vist. If that seems too much of an over statement, do a quick check on what your home page is, how often you visit or how many £'s you've saved on bits and trouble shooting ;)

I for one will welcome any rule changes that are brought in by the MT. If I disagree I'll speak up, as Nelly and as Cornerspeed if necessary.
I'm a paid up member of the club and i'm allowed to do that. I'm also a trader that pays into the coffers for my advertising.

As mentioned before, this is not a public forum. It's a club message board that is open to the masses to be able to gleen off whatever knowledge is present on it, and there is masses of it.
It would not exist without the membership of the club and the people that run it.
No one has the right to abuse it or the people that run it. If they do then they get corrected. If they don't like it, then that's their problem.
If you don't like or agree with the rules, then stand up and take an active role in the club. Give up hours of your free time to change it............
I don't have the time, i'll admit it, so i'll respect those that have taken the trouble and work with them. Period.

[Paul James]

Nelly. Right on the button, what more could any rational person add or take away from that !!!.

You've balanced the comment regarding what it has cost you in giving discounts, against the benefits you've had from the exposure on the site, that's commercial reality. It is the people who bring nothing to the party yet want all the benefits and to be able to freely abuse whoever they feel inclined to that are the problem.

I'm only too aware, from my own experiences, of how much is involved in making your own business work and I well recall talking about it with you when you were considering having a go. Fair play to you've succeeded and you darn well deserve it !!!

It is good to see that there are still people out there who have some appreciation of how difficult it can be to run the site and the club in general, particularly as you pointed out as it is all voluntary input from people who, like yourself, who have a true passion for the marque.

[Gizmo]

Well said Nelly, nice to hear it from a DSC supporting trader.

[Webteam]

There's a lot of good points in the postings above, many thanks to those who have contributed.

At the recent MT meeting a draft set of advertising rules were proposed as a basis to work on for a new set that will (hopefully) prove more managable than previously.
Rather than putting the detail up here in this early stage and getting a multitude of diverse suggestions, a group of msg board regulars have been asked to contribute (off-line) in preparing the new advert rules. Once this group have sorted out something that is seen as fair and reasonble to members, non-members, private and trade, the topic can be discussed at the forthcoming AGM and implemented shortly after.

If you have any suggestions to make, please continue with this thread - all I am highlighting is that there is work already going on 'behind the scenes' and just because there are very few responses from either MT or Webteam members doesn't mean we're not taking note!

Eamonn.

[Henners]

Posted by Nelly
If you don't like or agree with the rules, then stand up and take an active role in the club. Give up hours of your free time to change it............


Don't get me started Neil ;)

[Ian]

thanks Neil.

[Loz]

Some of the ideas posted on this thread will have the affect of increasing the amount of work our unpaid MT will have to do.
As I understand it, the current system is that ads that are in breach of the rules get deleted (sooner or later, when they are spotted). Any alternative to the current system should cause the MT no more work than they currently undertake, in order to be workable.

I can't see a problem with the current level of advertising.

(All just in my opinion, of course.)

[ricco749s]

NELLY - what a refreshingly sensible statement....not thinking of opening up in London are you - couple of nice stores down here currently looking pretty sorry for themselves?

[madmav]

How can you measure IT! Advertising ;)

pay or not pay!

value to the club !

Big question there!

My advert for the nurburgring experience so far in terms of the club (DSC) as achieved Didley squat;)

as we have never run a trip for the DSC as yet;)


BUT


The year before Last a member of the DSC "Binned" his 998 Bostrom at the RING!

I was down in Italy on a WDW week for JHP

I took a phone call at 7pm from a guy i had never heard of!

By 10pm his bike was recovered and my friend in Germany delivered it back to the uk for a Fraction of the cocst:D

Two simple phone calls from me and the DSC member was out of the ****!

The point here is MY Advertising on here Yields (so Far nothing)

but through my association with the DSC, someone benefited from it!

Advertising for me a sole trader (expensive)

Being fair with the MT (:puzzled:)

Being associated with mav ( priceless);):lol::lol:


well said nelly !;)

[Rushjob]

I'm a regular user of Rennlist - a Porsche forum.
The rules on there are simple.
If you want to advertise cars or bits of bling as an individual you can do so if you are a paid up member.
If you want to advertise items as a company, you pay to do so.
If non paid up members or companies try to advertise, their thread lasts all of about 10 minutes before it gets "moderated"
It's simple and there's no room for confusion as listed here.......

Lately, Rennlist has had a number of businesses and "marketers" soliciting their wares in threads and posts. Some are veiled, whilst others are more brazen. Since Rennlist is the single largest Internet site dedicated to Porsche automobiles and enthusiasts, it is bound to happen. But.......

To be clear, Rennlist would not exist except for paying Sponsors and Members - and they, along with us - feel it is unfair that they subsidize non-Sponsor sales and marketing efforts, often times with competing products with Rennlist Sponsors. In short, if you are not a Sponsor, the Rennlist Charter prohibits commercial posts to the Forums.

What is commercial solicitation? For example...

If you post We/our/my company has... - you are selling something....
If you post We/our/my product is... - you are selling something....
If you post We/our/my customers'... - you are selling something....
If you post We/our/my will be announcing... - you are selling something....
If you post We/our/my test results for our... - you are selling something....
If you post We/our/my can make or supply that... - you are selling something....

If you/your company/product would like to have your unaffiliated/unbiased customers talk about your product - they are more than welcome to do so. However, as a commercial vendor with a sales intent - you are not.

Further, you are more then welcome to participate simply as an individual enthusiast - BUT NOT as a vendor/sales agent with a sales agenda. As well - a "Rennlist Member" does not broker you being a "Rennlist Sponsor" and acting as such, no more than being a Member of a car club entitles you to receive a free commercial full-page color advertisement in their monthly publication.

Until you become a paid Sponsor, please understand your "advertisements" will be either edited or deleted, as it's neither "fair" to those who support this site - nor "us", the Rennlist community.


That's the American approach for businesses whilst for individuals there is the choice of posting items for sale in the members only section - that is paid up members - or in an open section for all to see. If you haven't paid up to support the forum, you can't sell.

Welcome to the Member to Member Classifieds!

Did you ever want to buy and sell parts, cars - stuff - from only other Rennlist Members? Well - now you can....

This Forum can not be viewed by site visitors or non-Members, so the only folks who can see your ad are other Rennlist Members. By contrast - the Rennlist Classifieds, while open to only ads from Rennlist Members - the "buyers" can be anyone...

So - if you'd like to offer your Porsche, parts, etc. - to only Members first, you can post your ads here before going to the "Rennlist Classifieds" in the Rennlist Mall area

[madmav]

Rushjob ! That makes a lot of sence:)

[Nattyboy]

Good reading nelly..a great, balanced view.

As for my own situation, I think most people know I am lucky enough to have a few contacts (i'm NOT a trader !!) and do advertise some DP bits and pieces on the forum from time to time (although as youve probably noticed I have backed off a bit lately after reading some comments on the forum to avoid complicating things).

I'd like to think I am never greedy with the prices I ask, and in the process help some members buy some nice bits for their bikes at sensible money which in turn helps fund my hobby.

If anyone took objection to this, I wouldnt hesitate to stop it and explore other avenues, and would have no bad feeling about it at all.

Suppose its like Jools says, its common sense really..I try not to push my luck and also make every effort to put something back into the club to balance things up a bit (raffle prizes at a club event, prizes for the desmodue series, and sponsorship of a desmodue rider with some bits and bobs are some of the things ive done in the last 12 months).

I'm here first and foremost as a member and enthusiast, but do value the opportunity of hopefully being able to offer something of interest to the members in my sparetime, which as I say, in turn helps me fund my passion.

I'd also like to add that when I initially joined the club, privatley the MT were very constructive and courteous when seeking some clarification on wether I was a trader or not.

I for one would never moan about what they do, even if I didnt agree with it. They obviously put a lot of time and effort into the club, and I think we would all be wise to remember that (apart from that Flanks bloke who does come across as a bit of a to55pot...:lol::lol:)

Cheers
Nat

[Mark]

"cough" there goes all your adverts Del Boy! :lol:

[Henners]

Cheers Rushjob - hope your very helpful post above will avoid a load of folk trying to reinvent the wheel.

[TP]

Well, first of all I'd like to apologise to the entire club for my recent inconsistent policing of the advertising rule.

I am SO sick of the u2u's and crap that I've gotten, and read in threads, just for policing a rule that was clearly stated on many occasions that I started to become inconsistent with policing it. There's stuff I've seen and not removed because I knew the grief it would cause me and that's not fair to the people who play the game. So for that I apologise - especially to Nelly, WeeJohnnyBee and Shaggy (Tyreman, Wraysbury Tyres).

If any DSC member would like me to stand down from the webteam let me know, by u2u if you'd like to keep it private, and I'll stand down.

[Davieravie]

Originally posted by TP

If any DSC member would like me to stand down from the webteam let me know, by u2u if you'd like to keep it private, and I'll stand down.

Just commit Hari Kari and be done with it Tony!!! ;)

I dont think you bought me a beer at the North West Winter warmer so i'll not miss you! :D;)

[TP]

Originally posted by Davieravie
Just commit Hari Kari and be done with it Tony!!! ;)

I dont think you bought me a beer at the North West Winter warmer so i'll not miss you! :D;)

Sorry mate, it was a long drive up so I had to drink everything on the way! ;)

I think I left some Whiskey for you, although Scott bought that ...

[Henners]

In fairness Tony the issue is not with the moderators or the webteam it is with the club rules or lack of them hence the significance of what Rushjob put up earlier.

The MT are working on it and I'd be surprised if it wasn't sorted at the AGM - along with a whole shedload more overdue changes :)

[Mark]

As we speak, rules are being looked at. And the plan is to have them ready for the AGM for consultation.

Tony, I know how you feel!

[nelly]

Originally posted by TP
Well, first of all I'd like to apologise to the entire club for my recent inconsistent policing of the advertising rule.

I am SO sick of the u2u's and crap that I've gotten, and read in threads, just for policing a rule that was clearly stated on many occasions that I started to become inconsistent with policing it. There's stuff I've seen and not removed because I knew the grief it would cause me and that's not fair to the people who play the game. So for that I apologise - especially to Nelly, WeeJohnnyBee and Shaggy (Tyreman, Wraysbury Tyres).

If any DSC member would like me to stand down from the webteam let me know, by u2u if you'd like to keep it private, and I'll stand down.

Firstly, what've you got to apologise for?? Neither you or any one else giving up their spare time to "police" the boards owes anyone an apologie.

As for standing down? If you want to then fair enough, but again, if anyone asks you to, then they ought to be prepared to take up the slack IMO.

[Jools]

Originally posted by nelly
Originally posted by TP
Well, first of all I'd like to apologise to the entire club for my recent inconsistent policing of the advertising rule.

I am SO sick of the u2u's and crap that I've gotten, and read in threads, just for policing a rule that was clearly stated on many occasions that I started to become inconsistent with policing it. There's stuff I've seen and not removed because I knew the grief it would cause me and that's not fair to the people who play the game. So for that I apologise - especially to Nelly, WeeJohnnyBee and Shaggy (Tyreman, Wraysbury Tyres).

If any DSC member would like me to stand down from the webteam let me know, by u2u if you'd like to keep it private, and I'll stand down.

Firstly, what've you got to apologise for?? Neither you or any one else giving up their spare time to "police" the boards owes anyone an apologie.

As for standing down? If you want to then fair enough, but again, if anyone asks you to, then they ought to be prepared to take up the slack IMO.

Here, here

[GsxrAge]

Yep diito


Untill the rules are all sorted you have a difficult job to know what to allow or not.

Stay put TP

Age

[Redruth]

I've just caught up with this thread and have to say Nelly, you're a diamond. I knew from very early on in my club membership that you ran Cornerspeed and that lots of the guys used you. However, I never felt that any of your posts providing technical assistance were anything other than those of an expert offering good advice, in the same way as Shazaam or Skidlids would offer advice, expecting nothing in return.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about putting something back into the club that you have benefitted from but you've only benefitted because we all know and trust you which, again, is a sign of how a good reputation can flourish under the wing of the DSC. Equally, if you were rubbish, we'd all hear about it, if not overtly, then through the grapevine.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Redruth]

[Felix]

So, Nelly, are you gonna ask her out?

[kwikbitch]

Originally posted by Felix
So, Nelly, are you gonna ask her out?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Yeah if that wasn't a blatant come on then I'm mother Theresa:devil:;)

[kwikbitch]

Sorry....was this a sensible discussion???:P

[Redruth]

KB - shame on you :lol:

Although, now that you mention it - if only I could play around with those graphicy things I'm sure I could mock up a KB as mother theresa -

Felix - you owe me an apology - which I shall extract next time I see you track side - even if it takes me all evening :devil:

[Davieravie]

Originally posted by Redruth
I shall extract next time I see you track side - even if it takes me all evening :devil:

ooo er missus!!!! :D

[kwikbitch]

Originally posted by Redruth
KB - shame on you :lol:

Although, now that you mention it - if only I could play around with those graphicy things I'm sure I could mock up a KB as mother theresa -

Felix - you owe me an apology - which I shall extract next time I see you track side - even if it takes me all evening :devil:

See...told you it was a come on....

[Rushjob]

Oh dear, oh dear , oh dear......

[Redruth]

See...told you it was a come on.... [/quote]

Shouldn't you be getting a decent night's sleep so that you can teach the next generation how to behave properly (although quite how that's gonna happen I really don't know) :devil::devil::devil::frog:

Hats off to your superior pooter knowledge, as always, Lisa x

[BDG]

lisa-teresa, excellent:lol::lol::lol:


why were all of my teachers boring gits?

[kwikbitch]

Erm...uninspiring pupils?????? Springs to mind! :frog:

[BDG]

Originally posted by kwikbitch
Erm...uninspiring pupils?????? Springs to mind! :frog:

Sssshh! the truth always hurts:P

[Jools]

Originally posted by Redruth
Hats off to your superior pooter knowledge, as always, Lisa x

I think that's Mother Superior pooter knowledge :lol:

[Rushjob]

Jools posted......
I think that's Mother Superior pooter knowledge :lol:

That's terrible...... made me smile tho' :lol:

[Felix]

Lisa, you should be more careful with caricatures of religious symbols. You could get yourself in all sorts. :lol:

And Ruth, promises, promises... Are there any special tools I need to bring? :D

This thread might yet get banned as the title suggests.;)

[Real McCoy]

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6126/untitled9zt.png (http://imageshack.us)

[Rushjob]

Be even funnier if the sign was correctly spelled!

[Ian Harris]

Originally posted by Rushjob
Be even funnier if the sign was correctly spelled!

and bl00dy hilarious if it was correctly spelt :frog: (oh bollox, I've just disappeared up me own backside :o )

[Rushjob]

Both being correct used either in past tense or as past participle.................:P
Hmmm, DIY proctology, different, but if that rocks your boat! ;)

[Ian Harris]

Originally posted by Rushjob
Both being correct used either in past tense or as past participle.................:P


I stand corrected...just goes to show that post-pub lexicology is a dangerous game !

[kwikbitch]

:lol::lol::lol:
You two are soooooo funny (said in a John major voice);):P