View Full Version : Trackday concerns
revdecal
26-Apr-2006, 14:22
Hi guys, just some thoughts to get a few things off my chest and then your opinions.
I am an experienced track day bod, having now been on over 50 track days, 40 of which in the fast group.
I also have 3 yrs racing experience.
Now i'm defo not saying that im the fastest boy out there by any means but i can hold my own.
On the weekend i was, yet again, completely pollaxed from behind mid way through sears by someone trying to keep up with his 'boyfriend', leaving me with half a dozen cracked ribs and wrecked leathers.
My observation is that more and more race boys are using a track day as pre race prep and more incidents like this are occurring.(This is my 3rd time at being wiped out by another rider)
S**t happens and i know that, but the point is, is that there are a mix of people going as fast as they WANT with people going as fast as they CAN which is a sometimes dangerous combination.
If i race, then i mentally prepare myself to do so. Track days are a different kettle of fish, i DO NOT expect to trade paint, defend my line or have hard moves put on me or for me to put on anyone else!
Snetterton was like nothing i had seen before, it was more a mini race meet than a track day.
EVERYONE had box trailers,warmers,stands,tool boxes, spare wheel trees etc...
Something else i have noticed is that the organisers always say if they notice this sort of thing blah,blah,blah they will send the guy home. On sat it was the only time i have seen, literally 25 people from all groups, rushing up to them complaining and they did bugger all, apart from another speech at lunch.!
I am not about to stop attending track days but am i the only person who has noticed a significant change recently?
Rant over:D
bradders
26-Apr-2006, 14:26
hope youire not too badly hurt...either physically or in the wallet!!
dont do enough to know - done 5, 3 rained off so 2 really, over the last two years..makes me think about not doing any more tho!
weeksy2
26-Apr-2006, 14:27
Well i did a couple this weekend and although there were a lot of 'racers' out there, the overtakes were fairly straight forward and nice and leisurely.
Even at Oulton there were plently of guys running warmers and race bikes, although that doesn't necessarily mean they are 'racers' just guys who have a bit of extra money to pay for a race bike.
from speaking to a mate who was in fast yesterday, there was nothing like this in the fast group yesterday.
dickieducati
26-Apr-2006, 14:44
the shift is changing for sure. when i started trackdays you would find a few people with race/track bikes and trailers vans etc. now i would say it is the norm. if a trackday falls conveniently before a meeting at said circuit then a large percentage of people there; in ALL groups will be racers.
im not sure what can be done but something has to be. 3 groups is simply not enought separate out all the abilities.
im not a quick racer or is a 620 monster a quick bike but i have been out in all 3 groups on it.
i beleive i am courteous but probably pass closer or at areas where strictly i shouldnt.
there will be many more incidents until the track companies really do reprimand people for bad riding, and not just a chat at lunch but chucking them off track.
may be trackdays should be run as roadbikes only or track and race bikes allowed. i think it would save alot of problems
revdecal
26-Apr-2006, 14:50
That was my only complaint of the day, apart from the fact that the guy didnt have the balls to come up to me and apologise.
The fact that if you preach the rules, back them up when they are broken. There is no point if you rant on in the morning brief about courtesy, and this is a track day etc... if you let them go out and do whatever they like.
I was overtaken on red,yellow and the chequer flag, even on the 3 sighting laps and in session!
Maybe it was a one off because i have never seen anything like it.
weeksy2
26-Apr-2006, 14:52
Originally posted by revdecal
That was my only complaint of the day, apart from the fact that the guy didnt have the balls to come up to me and apologise.
The fact that if you preach the rules, back them up when they are broken. There is no point if you rant on in the morning brief about courtesy, and this is a track day etc... if you let them go out and do whatever they like.
I was overtaken on red,yellow and the chequer flag, even on the 3 sighting laps and in session!
Maybe it was a one off because i have never seen anything like it.
I was also overtaken on the 'sighting' laps yesterday... but it was on the power and i was taking it easy warming my tyres.
Racers don't have much choice but to use trackdays as ACU test days are becoming rarer :(
Racers and trackdays don't mix well.
misterpink
26-Apr-2006, 15:24
i think you have a good point - trackdays are not cheap and are a day off work and possibly £££ on the damage. trackday companies go on about not making money, cost of insurance etc etc but the problem was too many trying to cash in. i am no TD expert but get really pi££ed when you are told 3 sighting laps no passing on the cool down or red/yellow flag and what happens?? trouble is as paying public we are a bit stumped - if you want to go on a trackday - and i like them as a way of riding my bike faster/safer than on the road then what can you do??????? and yes, more people are getting very serious about it and splashing the cash - that must mean that having invested more money they have to prove a point - scary thought.
Racer, experienced trackdayer, Novice or somewhere in between as long as you ride with respect and a mind for the safety for those in front of you there shouldn't be a problem.
Unfortunately the I'm alright jack mindset sometimes gets on to the track on a track day. Not good.
Sure I've noticed more and more race bikes or wannabee racers at days now but as long as the riders have the "right attitude" that shouldn't be a problem.
Ray.
revdecal
26-Apr-2006, 15:31
I think its the fact that, as you say, they are running a business.
And if its close to a race day and the fast group is full, they filter them down into the inters and even novice!
As i am a bit experienced, if someone shoves it up the inside of me, i wont (9 times out of 10) grab any front brake or panic.
For the less experienced fast boys and novice, it must be very intimidating!
Still love doing them though:D
allthegearnoidea
26-Apr-2006, 20:22
Two responses from me. Four trackdays under my belt so far this month.
1. If a particular organiser is weak we should name and shame them. We can all avoid their days and our Chairman can write to them informing them of our boycott and asking for assurances about safety improvemnts.
2. We should organise more of our own trackdays and we should support them rather than being obliged to go to commercial operators for our trackday fun.
Dave
Ian,
You'll have to excuse my sense of humour bypass on this one 'cos I don't get it?
:puzzled:
:puzzled::puzzled:
:puzzled:
Ray.
GsxrAge
26-Apr-2006, 21:41
Do what we have done on swb book your own track time and sell spaces to your mates ! :cool:
In my experience of trackdays I've seen this kind of thing with a certain organiser, but not with others. Maybe coincidence?
BUT... the first time I went with FE, there was a racer boy allowed out in the final novice session (he'd been in the fast group all day). He made a close pass on a real novice and spooked him into grabbing the brake - result was the novice guy crashed.
The second time I went to a FE day showed, in my opinion, a similar disregard for the group distribution. I was put down to the novice group on sign-in because of overbooking, and when I showed my acu licence and asked if it was a concern to them I was told "don't worry, it won't make your penis any smaller." Make of that what you will!
Nothing even came close to that sort of behavior on days with either no limits nor hottrax.
Maybe there should be an obligation enforced by the insurance that all ACU holders are only permitted in the fast group on a commercial track day? I know that won't SOLVE anything, but surely it's the right direction?
n
p.s. G.W.S ryan
revdecal
26-Apr-2006, 21:45
Hmmmmmmm....FE? rings a bell? Not just me then?:D
DCR... I think you should scan and publish your 100 lines when you've done them!
Iconic944ss
26-Apr-2006, 22:21
Originally posted by allthegearnoidea
Two responses from me. Four trackdays under my belt so far this month.
1. If a particular organiser is weak we should name and shame them. We can all avoid their days and our Chairman can write to them informing them of our boycott and asking for assurances about safety improvemnts.
2. We should organise more of our own trackdays and we should support them rather than being obliged to go to commercial operators for our trackday fun.
Dave
Good Points but....
1) Can we please NOT openly name and shame any organiser as there might well be legal implications for the club, even if you are expressing an opinion - I think complaints of this type need to be taken up directly with the organisers concerned.
I've been on the receiving end of this myself at a TD last year after being cut up a treat by the same person more than once. I was told at the time that the organisers rely to quite some extent on the marshalls looking after the track reporting back as well on the travelling instructors.
I must say though - if someone ever brought me off on a TD (unless there was a DAMN good reason, I'd have serious thoughts about using the same organiser).
2) DSC TD's - More than ever (hopefully !!!) this year, but as I recall there is a financial constraint that they MUST NOT run at a loss - so if enough places are not filled before hand then an event could be cancelled....
Use 'em or lose 'em.
Cheers - Frank
loverobot
27-Apr-2006, 07:16
i do worry when it is suggested that people cannot express their own opinions about services / products for fear of being sued
it is a misunderstanding of the power of the law - which is there to promote fairness
for example
if did chains keep snapping on people i have a right to know - similarly if a trackday company didnt act on safety
for the record i did 4 days in cartegena with fe and they were brilliant on all fronts including safety
if i had a problem i would raise it on the day - as soe people did with them and i got the impression they were listened to
one of the points of a community is to share experiences - good or bad surely?
loverobot
27-Apr-2006, 07:18
btw should not be just so and so are crap but a factual account of what happened no more no less
weeksy2
27-Apr-2006, 07:47
People in this club really confuse and irritate me in some ways regarding trackdays...
Lots complain about this organiser and that one... but then people still use them. Personally the day at Oulton with FE was superb once again and i've never yet had a problem with them.
But back on topic.... 2 of the DSC days were cancelled this year... I was the only person on Phil Bevans trackday from DSC (another DSC supporter) and No Limits are not seeming the choice de riguer for all DSC members.
You have to ask, WHY ? If you the 'rider' is so worried about certain companies, why are YOU not supporting the ones that are backed and back in return DSC ?
Agree with you weeksy, but from my perspective...
Originally posted by weeksy2
Lots complain about this organiser and that one... but then people still use them.
I don't use one tdo any more.
Originally posted by weeksy2
You have to ask, WHY ? If you the 'rider' is so worried about certain companies, why are YOU not supporting the ones that are backed and back in return DSC ?
My first point of call is no limits who offer a lot of support to the dsc.
weeksy2
27-Apr-2006, 08:26
Originally posted by NBs996
Agree with you weeksy, but from my perspective...
Originally posted by weeksy2
Lots complain about this organiser and that one... but then people still use them.
I don't use one tdo any more.
Originally posted by weeksy2
You have to ask, WHY ? If you the 'rider' is so worried about certain companies, why are YOU not supporting the ones that are backed and back in return DSC ?
My first point of call is no limits who offer a lot of support to the dsc.
Good stuff... but you're more of the exception than the rule...
Being honest, i'm one of the worst for it and have only used No Limits once for the DSC morning at Snett...
I go straight to FE's site when we're looking for TD's or if Bevan did more would be straight to him and Alan....
Why ? it's convenient... it's well organised... and it's stood me in good stead for 3 years through several Admin staff.
Originally posted by Iconic944ss
1) Can we please NOT openly name and shame any organiser as there might well be legal implications for the club, even if you are expressing an opinion - I think complaints of this type need to be taken up directly with the organisers concerned.
Sorry Frank but I'd have to disagree. If a customer of any product or service likely to be used by other club members is justifiably dissatisfied then this is exactly the place to bring it up.
Track days are especially important as there is potential injury/loss of life involved and many of the club members use them regularly. If a member has been battered on track, and the organiser has chosen to do nothing despite a complaint, then they should be bought to the attention of the members.
I agree completely that the best way to enjoy track time is with the DSC, but the reality is that the dates/price/location don't always suit all members at that time, so folk are always going to use other organisers, and the club has an obligation to warn them of those other members have suffered with.
The trend from road bikes to track/race bikes is worrying but to be expected as we get taxed/hunted off the road. More and more people are chosing to only ride on TDs, so it's ever more important that people do use this forum to give an opinion or relate an experience.
As loverobot says, the law is there to promote fairness, not to provide a big stick for TD organisers to hit disgruntled punters with. If you've been knocked off your bike on a TD and the organiser has done bugger all about it then shout it from the roof tops before another member gets similar treatment. If, however, you were the victim of close pass or some paint swapping and didn't say anything to the organiser then there's not much they could've done about it so don't come on here and say they're rubbish!
Unfortunately it sounds like Ryan was hit before he could of said anything to the organiser, but some sympathy from the organiser and the banning of the offending rider (as commercially as insane as that might seem) would have gone a long way. In a few years time these companies will only have their reputation to trade on, mostly because they all offer a near-identical service, and those with a reputation for recklessness will suffer in much the same was as you'd think twice about booking a flight with aeroflot!
Cheers,
Ali
revdecal
27-Apr-2006, 09:36
I should say that this post was meant as an opinion on the future trend of track days, not an open bashing of any particular track day company.
This said however, as Ali mentioned, we are there for fun only but it is still a potentially lethal hobby.
My incident was completely avoidable and very dangerous (even the marshall complained).
I am not one to complain, i would normally take my complaint directly to the individual.
However, on this occasion i decided that it was far too serious a matter and felt that if something was not done, someone else could get seriously hurt.
There were no experienced instructors on the day as they were all abroad on a foreign track week.
As mentioned before, it has been the only time in my experience where they were awash with complaining customers and all that happened was a general ticking off in the form of another speech at lunchtime.
I like this organiser a lot, the guys are very friendly and helpful and i have never had reason to be concerned before.
But on this occasion they fell dangerously short of the mark!
The only point i would like to make is a general observation that track days need to be more strictly regulated or the morons will ruin it for everyone!
weeksy2
27-Apr-2006, 09:45
Phil Bevans day had 9 dedicated instructors... (+ a couple of spares..)
each session there were 5-6 out on track at all times... (amazingly apart from in fast, they were not racing at all... just helping out).
Cadwell Park, 21st, 22nd August, 21st Ducati only, 22nd club members with any bike-use them or lose them guys-they are filling up.
John
I've done days in England and days abroad. The days in England seem to be characterised by "the bloke with the scarey eyes" who emerges from his van with a manic laugh and then proceeds to endanger everyone out there. At the end of the session his disappears back into his van...
OTOH on the continent the attitude seems to be "after you, Claude". I know which I prefer! I've always put it down to the "social" side of days abroad - you all stay in the same hotel and drink together and the anti-social riders just don't seem to attend.
Perhaps you've got tales of terrible riding abroad that you can tell to disprove my theory...
Originally posted by revdecal
Hmmmmmmm....FE? rings a bell? Not just me then?:D
Ryan,
Hope you are not too bashed about and you and bike will recover soon.
My opinion regarding the above quote and Weeksy's and others' opinions - although I have my reservations regarding certain organisers and would use 100PC where possible, FE seem to have a monopoly at Brands. This is a major disadvantage to me as BH is my "local" and I have little choice - either FE or nobody!
If a TDO grows and expands rapidly in a short time, it would make sense to also grow the amount of staff/instructors to ensure standards and safety levels are maintained.
RX
dickieducati
27-Apr-2006, 13:56
Originally posted by Monty
Cadwell Park, 21st, 22nd August, 21st Ducati only, 22nd club members with any bike-use them or lose them guys-they are filling up.
John
not for me.
not with all those DD lunatics screaming around the place.:D
Originally posted by dickieducati
not for me.
not with all those DD lunatics screaming around the place.:D
You're not going to do the DSC days at Cadwell?
:o !
Originally posted by RickyX
Originally posted by revdecal
Hmmmmmmm....FE? rings a bell? Not just me then?:D
although I have my reservations regarding certain organisers and would use 100PC where possible
That'll be fairly hard as they went bump last year after owing MSV quite a considerable sum of money.... allegedly
chris.p
27-Apr-2006, 19:23
Originally posted by razz
OTOH on the continent the attitude seems to be "after you, Claude". I know which I prefer! I've always put it down to the "social" side of days abroad - you all stay in the same hotel and drink together and the anti-social riders just don't seem to attend.
.
Sorry. must disagree, just got back from doing a track day at Oscherslaben in Germany, probably the worst organised track day I have ever seen:mad: there was total nutters in all four groups, club racers & National riders, Dark Dog Kwak 600 team to name but one. Even when one member of our group who was in group 1 complained that they had been clipped in a corner, the organiser was not bothered, just gave them there money back & said off you go:mad:
It was the first time I have felt intimidated even in group 3, & as an ex club racer I would not call my self slow, but even I bailed out of the last session (as it was a free for all ) when some local racer on a Duke as well, brushed my left leg with his as I peeled into a right hander, & I was close to the edge of the track.
Apart from that it was a fantasic day, many thanks to my brother Paul ( Bionicle) for organising it & letting me use his new track day bike (ex 996 race bike).:D
Chris.:burn:
allthegearnoidea
27-Apr-2006, 23:35
I was shocked at Iconic 944s response to my post. This is a an internet form primarily for the purpose of sharing information about our biking experiences/knowledge. As such if one of us has a bad experience and that experience becomes a trend (i.e a number of us are having a particular problem with any given dealer/trackday organizer) we should absolutely name and shame the organisation involved. Our Clubs primary responsibility is to protect its members not the reputaion of commercial trackday suppliers.
If there is any doubt about our ability to express this information I would be grateful if you (or the relevant member of MT) could post the legal advice we have been given about hosts responsibilities for internet forum content on the members section of the site.
If such advice is not available can I ask that you say so, such that we may continue to share our biking experiences freely and without the concern that we might be bringing our club into disrepute.
Put more plainly I think your legal advice is non existent or wrong. I am quite happy to be proved wrong and will apologise in advance if I am. But if I'm not I think we should not be subject to tacit censorship on this Board.
Dave
allthegearnoidea
27-Apr-2006, 23:35
I was shocked at Iconic 944s response to my post. This is a an internet form primarily for the purpose of sharing information about our biking experiences/knowledge. As such if one of us has a bad experience and that experience becomes a trend (i.e a number of us are having a particular problem with any given dealer/trackday organizer) we should absolutely name and shame the organisation involved. Our Clubs primary responsibility is to protect its members not the reputaion of commercial trackday suppliers.
If there is any doubt about our ability to express this information I would be grateful if you (or the relevant member of MT) could post the legal advice we have been given about hosts responsibilities for internet forum content on the members section of the site.
If such advice is not available can I ask that you say so, such that we may continue to share our biking experiences freely and without the concern that we might be bringing our club into disrepute.
Put more plainly I think your legal advice is non existent or wrong. I am quite happy to be proved wrong and will apologise in advance if I am. But if I'm not I think we should not be subject to tacit censorship on this Board.
Dave
Originally posted by JPM
Originally posted by RickyX
Originally posted by revdecal
Hmmmmmmm....FE? rings a bell? Not just me then?:D
although I have my reservations regarding certain organisers and would use 100PC where possible
That'll be fairly hard as they went bump last year after owing MSV quite a considerable sum of money.... allegedly
Oooops...I meant "No Limits"........not 100PC!!
RX
bradders
28-Apr-2006, 08:15
I was clipped in the nivice at cadwell last year..nearly collected at the bottom of the mountain too....on a DSC day....didnt do another trackday...so its no news to me that there are peolpe willing to take a risk and spoil other riders fun!!!:mad:
weeksy2
28-Apr-2006, 08:31
Originally posted by bradders
I was clipped in the nivice at cadwell last year..nearly collected at the bottom of the mountain too....on a DSC day....didnt do another trackday...so its no news to me that there are peolpe willing to take a risk and spoil other riders fun!!!:mad:
Now this is where it gets confusing....
did you ask them afterwards ? there's a HUGE difference between dangerous and 'mistake'
bradders
28-Apr-2006, 08:44
ask AK, he was behind me when I was tagged on the leg....good job I couldnt find them really coz incandescent and rage come to mind, completely lost it when I got back in pits and had a look round paddock, couldnt spot which ducati leathers on a day full of ducati leathers...!!
bradders
28-Apr-2006, 08:45
oh, and Kelly cut thru the inside at the bottom of the mountain and it was no problem, nice & clean altho close, so it wasnt the act of being overtaken which I threw toys out over
weeksy2
28-Apr-2006, 08:58
Originally posted by bradders
ask AK, he was behind me when I was tagged on the leg....good job I couldnt find them really coz incandescent and rage come to mind, completely lost it when I got back in pits and had a look round paddock, couldnt spot which ducati leathers on a day full of ducati leathers...!!
Ak ain't here right now dude... it's just me and you...
Question time then...
Describe it in detail, and what you think happend and why ?
Were you on a slow line ? did you change early/late ? could Matey have just cocked up ? was it really that close ?
What rules would you like imposed to make sure it didn't happen again ?
At Oulton i had a fair bit of this where my bike being underpowered compared to the 1000's i simply had to make a few moves that i normally wouldn't make. I was losing 15-20 lengths down the straight after Cascades and sitting on their wheels into the hairpin... What can you do ?
Is it possible you were slow in the corners but using the big horses of the SPS on the straight bits and simply holding the guy up ?
weeksy2
28-Apr-2006, 08:58
Originally posted by bradders
oh, and Kelly cut thru the inside at the bottom of the mountain and it was no problem, nice & clean altho close, so it wasnt the act of being overtaken which I threw toys out over
what was the difference between the two... was it the 'contact' ?
bradders
28-Apr-2006, 09:58
following a slower rider, probably peeing all off behind because I didnt want to shove up the inside of him and spoil his day both time...fisrt at the bottom of mountain I had to brake and chnage my kline, nearly ended on the grass, then second over the mountain smacked my knee as they went around the outside (cafe side) right by the cafe and slammed it accross me again bit o shock at a whack on the knee and stand it up braking
anyway, thats old news so no need drag over that again...havent done one since tho but been chatting to Kev about the dsc one this year, like the idea of following him round and getting some advice, think I am fairly quick on the road so need to convert that to the track, maybe just go racing is the best way:rolleye:
[Edited on 28-4-2006 by bradders]
If you have a problem on a trackday speak to the organisers, if you don't how are they gonna know you are not happy??
Yes there should be TDO staff or marshalls watching whats going on but they can't be expected to see everything from every angle.
I've been hit from behind on a day before now causing damage to my bike on a non commercial Trackday, but the rider responsible was good enough to own up and take responsibilty. I was well mad but I was certain it was an error of judgement not some hot headed I'm all right jack on a hot lap riding.
A good TDO makes it 100% clear that there is collective reponsibility for safety on track. If you can't do it safely don't do it.
Sure mistakes happen, sure it can get frustrating behind riders that are slow on corners but fast on the straights but everyone should be there with a mind to enjoy the day and leave uninjured at the end of it.
Ray
Redruth
28-Apr-2006, 10:44
Whenever I see threads about bad experiences on track days it reinforces what I already think about them - you're taking a risk that, through no fault of your own, you could end up seriously injured, or worse. And I have to say that DSC days are not necessarily a haven of safety. There will always be riders who want to pass in whatever way they can, rather than worrying about what effect they may be having on the passee. The two most unnerving passes I've experienced were on DSC days. Other than that, I've been on half a dozen days with No Limits and had no trouble whatsoever.
The problem as I see it is that the very act of getting on a fast bike and being shown a track makes some people mentally incapable of riding considerately. Admittedly, they are few and far between but you simply have to be aware of that fact if you're going to do trackdays.
It's still a lot less dangerous than the road and a lot more fun. My biggest fear is being wiped out from behind and I think I'm usually, but not always, on the racing line, maybe not going as fast as people think I should on a 996, but if a rider's good at cornering there should be loads of room to overtake, on the corner or on the straight. If not, stay back till it's safe to pass. An experienced rider putting in a perfectly safe pass can still be intimidating for me and I have to take that into account when deciding whether or not to book trackdays. It's a calculated risk. However, I know the only proper place to ride my bike fast is on the track so, if I'm going to enjoy my riding, that's where I'll have to go.
chris.p
28-Apr-2006, 12:59
Originally posted by weeksy2
At Oulton i had a fair bit of this where my bike being underpowered compared to the 1000's i simply had to make a few moves that i normally wouldn't make. I was losing 15-20 lengths down the straight after Cascades and sitting on their wheels into the hairpin... What can you do ?
Simple realy, BACK OFF give the guy space, it is NOT a RACE
Chris.:burn:
chris.p
28-Apr-2006, 13:00
Originally posted by weeksy2
At Oulton i had a fair bit of this where my bike being underpowered compared to the 1000's i simply had to make a few moves that i normally wouldn't make. I was losing 15-20 lengths down the straight after Cascades and sitting on their wheels into the hairpin... What can you do ?
Simple realy, BACK OFF give the guy space, it is NOT a RACE
Chris.:burn:
chris.p
28-Apr-2006, 13:00
Originally posted by weeksy2
At Oulton i had a fair bit of this where my bike being underpowered compared to the 1000's i simply had to make a few moves that i normally wouldn't make. I was losing 15-20 lengths down the straight after Cascades and sitting on their wheels into the hairpin... What can you do ?
Simple realy, BACK OFF give the guy space, it is NOT a RACE
Chris.:burn:
[Edited on 28-4-2006 by chris.p]
weeksy2
28-Apr-2006, 13:04
Originally posted by chris.p
Originally posted by weeksy2
At Oulton i had a fair bit of this where my bike being underpowered compared to the 1000's i simply had to make a few moves that i normally wouldn't make. I was losing 15-20 lengths down the straight after Cascades and sitting on their wheels into the hairpin... What can you do ?
Simple realy, BACK OFF give the guy space, it is NOT a RACE
Chris.:burn:
wasn't necessary mate... the gap i just waited for for a lap and a half... it was large enough to get another bike through :)
at least i thought so :) he never complained.
NormanBurrows
28-Apr-2006, 13:15
I agree will all those raising concerns. The organiser at Oulton last Tuesday read the riot act then subsequently failed to enforce their own rules. In Inters we had 3 red flags out of the 5 sessions I stayed for.
I saw myself: 2 riders touch going into Foulstons chicane, a suspicious crash involving 2 bikes on exit of Hizzys, and was overtaken by an Instructor very closely indeed under a red flag!
Oh and an oil flag when Weeksy's chain broke halfway up Clay Hill. Bless.
Norm.
chris.p
28-Apr-2006, 13:21
Heck how did that come up three times:o
I think the message that is trying to be put across is that as a track day, it is supposed to be as SAFE but fast enviroment, well as safe as it can be made, the golden rule should be that YOU are responsible for the rider in fronts safety, a little bit of forethought can save a lot of agro, if you want close passing in the middle of corners etc, get an ACU licence & go racing or do ACU test/practice days, there are plenty about.
Chris.:burn:
i thought the whole idea of trackdays were for people to ride their road bikes/cars/tractors on a race track in a safe and controlled enviroment. im never sure why you need a driving licence and not your v5 ???
i've only done 4 trackdays myself but have spent some hard earned cash on tyrewarmers etc just to get value for money when at a trackday. i wouldnt call myself a racer by any means just a guy who likes to ride as fast and safe as he can that day as i dont want to bin my bike although i feel i ride faster and more dafter when on a local road. at my last day in silverstone last month i deliberately went in the intermiadete group as i thought there would be too many ACU guys using it as a pre season test session so thought it safer to step down a group.
most of my t'days have been with FE and i have no real compaints with their services offered just the amount of people in a group, last august there was over 80 people in the novice group, i was told to go up a group but there was no space in inters so i ended up in the fast group for the afternoon of my first t'day which was a eyeopener but a experience i was happy with and learnt from especially as i was quicker through the corners than most of the gsxr1000 boys there that day.
going back to weeksy point about what TDO to use for me is a choice of dates and prices. most of mine have to be sundays or bank holidays and within a sensible distance from home. i'd like to try a no-limits day but can never find a date to suit me and a mate, FE seem to have the market share with a trackday nearly everyday now through the summer, the cirucit owners are obviously happy with them or they wouldnt give them the circuits
as for the dsc days i'd love to do cadwell but its a 3 day trip for me and well over £100 in juice for the car alone let alone all the other expenses. if all dsc days were opened to members with non duke bikes you may get more people going as im sure theres more members like myself who'd like to do more but appreciate the 50% of the fuel costs a mate brings.
well i cant think of anything else to add :burn:
weeksy2
28-Apr-2006, 22:16
Oi Deej, i need someone to split the juice with and van hire with for Cadwell.
yeah but i still got the 150 miles each way to you and with what happened to my van at silverstone i doubt it'll make 1.5 miles without breaking down, if things change in the next few months then i'll definetly give you a shout, are you doing 1 or 2 days up there
weeksy2
29-Apr-2006, 08:21
2 days mate. Van we can hire and split 50-50.
clint 999R
02-May-2006, 20:45
ive been doing trackdays for about 4 years on suzuki gsxr 1000 aprilia rs250 no problems apart from 1 crash at cadwell no one else involved just me and the tyre wall i would love to do more track days on my 999r but for some reason people seem to think they can only go home happy if they can pass a ducati and they dont seem to care about their own safty let alone mine :mad:
Clint,
You might well have a point there, rarely get peeps carving up the inside going into or on a corner on me old '96 CBR6 road bike, different story on the 998, just as well I take the mirrors off or they'd get knocked off!!
Ray
Originally posted by chris.p
Originally posted by razz
OTOH on the continent the attitude seems to be "after you, Claude". I know which I prefer! I've always put it down to the "social" side of days abroad - you all stay in the same hotel and drink together and the anti-social riders just don't seem to attend.
.
Sorry. must disagree, just got back from doing a track day at Oscherslaben in Germany, probably the worst organised track day I have ever seen:mad: there was total nutters in all four groups, club racers & National riders, Dark Dog Kwak 600 team to name but one. Even when one member of our group who was in group 1 complained that they had been clipped in a corner, the organiser was not bothered, just gave them there money back & said off you go:mad:
It was the first time I have felt intimidated even in group 3, & as an ex club racer I would not call my self slow, but even I bailed out of the last session (as it was a free for all ) when some local racer on a Duke as well, brushed my left leg with his as I peeled into a right hander, & I was close to the edge of the track.
Apart from that it was a fantasic day, many thanks to my brother Paul ( Bionicle) for organising it & letting me use his new track day bike (ex 996 race bike).:D
Chris.:burn:
Ah, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. When I said "on the continent", I meant trackdays organised by English companies at foreign tracks where most of the riders are also English. With respect to continental days with continental riders then I agree with you. The local mad-men turn up! I've done a very scary day at Spa...
weeksy2
03-May-2006, 13:21
i just don't get it you know lads....
Local mad men ? what do you mean? they were quick ? Jesus you can't get much quicker than some of the UK riders.... you play with club racers and BSB class racers, they will be going quick.
I've had 1 time in god knows how many trackdays of a person overtaking me a little close in middle of corner.... that's 1 time in serveral thousand laps.
If you're getting people stuffing you every corner, maybe you're in the wrong group ? or the wrong game altogether ?
Track riding IMO is about allowing for closer overtaking etc by removing completely all the other factors to consider like traffic, walls and kerbs etc...
I honestly don't see where most of you are coming from....
There's so much open to interpretation on this topic,
one persons "near miss" is anothers "close pass no problem"
One persons "circuit nutter" is anothers "quick rider"
One thing that isn't open to question is when contact is made.
Different riders react differently, the same pass on different riders can cause different reactions........."hmmm, quick rider" to "shite I need to pick the bike up and head for the gravel"
The crux is knowing how the person you are passing is going to react, i.e. are your actions gonna cause a problem for the person you are overtaking. Difficult, but not impossible and where you choose to pass and how close is a big factor IMHO,
Ray
weeksy2
03-May-2006, 16:02
Agree totally mate... bbut don't you think some people are assuming the guy who made the contact or even nearly did in the examples above are giving the impression that they thought the guy was in the wrong automatically and should be thrown off..
People make mistakes, it's that simple... you come into a corner and think 'OK, i've got a huge gap here' then the guy on your outside lets off the brakes and turns in 10m earlier than he did the previous lap.... well, obviously you've then got no-where to go....
As for the people T-boned.... Jesus, at times it's the easiest mistake ever to miss braking points, you wouldn't believe how many BSB boys were doing this at Fulstons last week at Oulton. It's all about trying to get a little bit closer to the limit.
Interesting discussion-from a TDO's point of view-if no one tells me they are having a problem with someone overtaking-I won't know.
So the rules for Cadwell this year are clear-if you are having a problem-tell me or JohnnyB or one of the other instructors and if possible we will sort it. If you cannot identify the culprit it will be very difficult to do anything about it-and I know that on the Monday we will be riding dukes so that's another problem. In the 6 trackdays I have run so far for the club, and the other part days we have organised, I have had very few people approach me to say others are giving them problems. There were a couple of close passes last year with the DD boys that were reported-which is why I have said that this year they are all in the fast group if riding their DD bikes. It's your club and your trackday so hopefully everyone will treat others the way they would wish to be treated.
Here endeth the lesson-phew!
John
weeksy2
03-May-2006, 16:39
John,
how about doubling up on the Marshalls, as 'watchers' and large numbers on fronts of bikes to allow 'reporting' from the Marshalls ?
Increase the number of instructors with strict instructions not to 'ride and teach' but as 'viewing' type instructors to keep an eye on people ?
antonye
03-May-2006, 16:45
Monty,
Might be worth a reminder of this at the briefing - I know No Limits (especially John's!) briefings include this, but pointing out that there's nothing wrong with "having a word" with the instructors on the day about anything you feel uncomfortable with. The instructors can then talk to the perpetrator in confidence, to ensure that they are aware of the problem - perceived or real. This also acts as the first stage of someone getting the boot if they continue to behave like a dick.
I've never heard it put in these terms, so it would be nice if it could be explanied in a "non-grassing-up-your-mates" kind of way!
Maybe there should be an obligation enforced by the insurance that all ACU holders are only permitted in the fast group on a commercial track day? I know that won't SOLVE anything, but surely it's the right direction?
I dunno, its no fun on a 49bhp DD bike when you have to be in the same group as guys on 170+bhp IL4s on slicks, the speed difference is huge, especially when approaching braking points.
Even when everyone is riding sensibly its scary tipping it in when you know there could be a guy braking from 50mph faster who is aiming at the same spot but with more grip.....
yeah but hes talking about the dsc trackday
im sure most dd'ers wouldnt complain about being in the fast group, yuo are racers after all :roll::roll:
TopiToo
07-May-2006, 01:30
Hello
not sure what to say, as there are alot of good points raised here.
I only started doing track days a couple of years ago, after riding/getting used to the bike on the road (mostly solo riding then on DSC rideouts) To be honest never really gave TD's a thought, but started with Rockingham with the DSC in the wet, and really enjoyed it which was strange, but I kept thinking this would be great in fair weather.
Then went to Cadwell with the DSC and was very nervous, (more so the fact I new I could go as fast as comfortable and many would pass me from all different angles) and for a while kept worring about holding people up. Then I thought as long as I try and take the line that I felt comfortable with (as explained in the briefing. sighting points) the rest of you buggers can go under me or round me, and on many a corner this happened, which for me was a buzz, as I could start to see what lines other people were taking.
I did however have some scarey moments and slowed down to take a breather, but for me personally thats part and parcel. I show respect I get none so be it. . . we do what we do.
The DSC trackdays for me are a must, more so because there are enough instructors within the club to give you advice and instruct, if you need advice ask, if you want to complain . complain make a point!
Outside the DSC well if you dont ask you dont get, in all situations you can get help, and well we all need help:P
I am well aware that we all have different stories to tell, but for me I was very dissapointed that as a club we could not fill the DSC track days.
I would be more than happy just to do DSC trackdays 2/3 a year and continue to go on the occasional ride out even if its raining.
regards
TopiToo
weeksy2
07-May-2006, 20:34
Originally posted by TopiToo
I am well aware that we all have different stories to tell, but for me I was very dissapointed that as a club we could not fill the DSC track days.
I too was also disappointed in the turn out for DSC trackday, i'm as guilty as the next person as i was only signed up for Cadwell, not Brands or Oulton... BUt it was a real shame.
For me personally it's the fact that non Ducati/DSC bikes are not allowed which stopped me from riding them. Much as i have friends in the DSC, i have more and closer ones outside of it. My TD's are all about the social side of things and was a huge factor in my decision.
Not that i'm saying they should not be DSC/Ducati only, that's a great plan... ut doesn't necessarily fit with eveyones 'ideal'
or fit within everyones costs, for me its more expensive to get to most places than it is to pay for the day so i need a mate to share fuel costs
couchcommando
20-May-2006, 14:16
Originally posted by twpd
Racers don't have much choice but to use trackdays as ACU test days are becoming rarer :(
Racers and trackdays don't mix well.
You're right, Mr.trackday bod takes offence at your pass and then rides beyond his limit trying to keep up or pass back then makes a mistake.
I'm not saying all racers are fast but on the whole they are quicker than trackdayers, the trackdayers then try and keep up with predictable results :(
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