CSS Instructor Examination Day [Archive]

09-May-2006, 22:09

Originally posted by JasonBoswell
Yeah, I'd be really interested to know too, Phil, as he borrowed my beloved and much doted upon 996 today.

I'd be so pleased to know that I helped him pass, as he's had such a hard time of it lately.

:devil:

Well mate, you did. You, Kate and Phil were absolute stars last night in my hour of need.

I'm now a CSS riding coach.

domski

09-May-2006, 22:11

Oh my god, EVERYONE... RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:

Well done Crashy ;)

How long have CSS been running stunt classes for? :P

Seriously though, chuffed for you dude :D

09-May-2006, 22:12

Huge Congrats TP:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

Mark

09-May-2006, 22:13

Well done Skippy :)

phillc

09-May-2006, 22:18

Originally posted by TP
You, Kate and Phil were absolute stars last night in my hour of need.

Aaaawwww. :bouncy:

So Jason's bike went OK then mate?

Congratulations! Look out UK track riding world.
:D

antonye

09-May-2006, 22:59

For all the **** taking, sincere congrats mate!

ericthered40

09-May-2006, 23:20

What you say Skipp, your an instructor.

If I come for a lesson will you promise not to spray oil in my face and then torch yourself.

:)

Well done mate good luck with it:)

09-May-2006, 23:37

Originally posted by ericthered40
What you say Skipp, your an instructor.

If I come for a lesson will you promise not to spray oil in my face and then torch yourself.

:)

Well done mate good luck with it:)

Now that would hardly be entertaining now would it!

Thanks everyone for all your kind words.

TopiToo

09-May-2006, 23:38

Hello TP

well done that man!

congratulations are in order;)

regards

TopiToo

butch890

10-May-2006, 04:10

well done mate,how long before you can take the stabilizers off!:lol:
Butch

webbyc

10-May-2006, 06:21

Didn't realise that the CSS had a kamikaze section:lol:

Seriously though well done Skippy:cool:

chicken

10-May-2006, 07:09

Well done mate!

Ian Harris

10-May-2006, 07:56

Well done Tony, many congratulations

10-May-2006, 08:25

Well played chum!:P

Jools

10-May-2006, 10:09

Excellent news....must think about level 4 when I've got some money.

fil2

10-May-2006, 11:22

do you have to do the CSS levels prior to Becoming a CSS instructor......>?

10-May-2006, 11:28

Originally posted by fil2
do you have to do the CSS levels prior to Becoming a CSS instructor......>?

Not sure but I would suggest that it would be a lot more difficult as you haven't been taught the syllabus and this is what you are there to help coach students on. The 'Grilling' is approximately an hour long and you have bad cop and badder cop constantly firing questions at you on the technology the school teaches. You have to have a good understanding of the technology and be reasonably articulate in explaining it and its application.

If you're interested, why don't you ring Andy Ibbott and find out?

fil2

10-May-2006, 13:42

Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by fil2
do you have to do the CSS levels prior to Becoming a CSS instructor......>?

Not sure but I would suggest that it would be a lot more difficult as you haven't been taught the syllabus and this is what you are there to help coach students on. The 'Grilling' is approximately an hour long and you have bad cop and badder cop constantly firing questions at you on the technology the school teaches. You have to have a good understanding of the technology and be reasonably articulate in explaining it and its application.

If you're interested, why don't you ring Andy Ibbott and find out?

When i have acheived the goals i have set myself with racing..it is something that im interested in...as well as some track day instruction.........possibly....

10-May-2006, 14:08

Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by TP
Not sure but I would suggest that it would be a lot more difficult as you haven't been taught the syllabus and this is what you are there to help coach students on. The 'Grilling' is approximately an hour long and you have bad cop and badder cop constantly firing questions at you on the technology the school teaches. You have to have a good understanding of the technology and be reasonably articulate in explaining it and its application.

If you're interested, why don't you ring Andy Ibbott and find out?

When i have acheived the goals i have set myself with racing..it is something that im interested in...as well as some track day instruction.........possibly....

Cool, well when it's something you want to pursue I'd actually take it up with Johnny Haynes.

Good luck mate.

Jon

10-May-2006, 18:34

Originally posted by fil2
do you have to do the CSS levels prior to Becoming a CSS instructor......>?

Phil the CSS sent out an open invitation last year to pupils inviting them to a coach assesment day. When I asked what was expected in the way of commitment if you where to be succesfull. The answer was 10 days a year. Thats a big commitment unless you a lazy ozzie basteed:D

bradders

10-May-2006, 18:38

does it pay well....??

10-May-2006, 18:42

Originally posted by bradders
does it pay well....??

Well that's relative to the income you have now I would guess, which is different for everyone.

I know I'm not doing it for the money.

domski

10-May-2006, 18:47

Can you do 120 days a year?

Coz I could do it for a job then ;)

:lol:

Jon

10-May-2006, 20:50

Originally posted by domski
Can you do 120 days a year?

Coz I could do it for a job then ;)

:lol:

I think they have enough crashers on the team;)

tetol

10-May-2006, 21:36

so you pay what £300 per level to be taught by tp:puzzled: or am i missing something.

Jon

10-May-2006, 22:41

Originally posted by tetol
so you pay what £300 per level to be taught by tp:puzzled: or am i missing something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm only jesting with TP. One thing for sure though you won't go wrong being instructed by TP. he knows the drill inside out.

Rattler

10-May-2006, 22:43

Originally posted by Jon
Originally posted by tetol
so you pay what £300 per level to be taught by tp:puzzled: or am i missing something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm only jesting with TP. One thing for sure though you won't go wrong being instructed by TP. he knows the drill inside out.

TP, Jon - get a room!!!

fil2

11-May-2006, 09:30

Originally posted by Jon
Originally posted by fil2
do you have to do the CSS levels prior to Becoming a CSS instructor......>?

Phil the CSS sent out an open invitation last year to pupils inviting them to a coach assesment day. When I asked what was expected in the way of commitment if you where to be succesfull. The answer was 10 days a year. Thats a big commitment unless you a lazy ozzie basteed:D

10 days sounds fine....obviously when i stop racing as i cant afford the time for both....certainly it is of interest to me.......but who knows........i may not fit the mould required.

[Edited on 11-5-2006 by fil2]

weeksy2

11-May-2006, 09:43

Originally posted by tetol
so you pay what £300 per level to be taught by tp:puzzled: or am i missing something.

Nope, you have it pretty much correct.

antonye

11-May-2006, 09:49

Originally posted by tetol
so you pay what £300 per level to be taught by tp:puzzled: or am i missing something.

Why? Being taught by TP is no better or worse than any of the other instructors as they have all passed the instructors test.

andyb

11-May-2006, 09:53

Please correct me if im wrong, what puts me off doing the training is the fact there is no kind of entrance exam.

In that, i mean it doesnt take in to account previous ability good or bad, speed of learning, track time..etc.

antonye

11-May-2006, 09:57

I think that's actually part of the point Andy.

If you read the CSS books, you'll see that Keith Code's whole idea was to break "riding a motorcycle, fast" down into the main elements which made you able to do it.

The courses ensure that you are doing all of the basics right first, before moving you on to the more advanced stuff - kind of like making sure that your foundations are fine before building higher.

Keith Code thinks that this is just as important as the more advanced stuff because, after all, if you don't know why you counter steer then how can they effectively teach you advanced techniques in it?

weeksy2

11-May-2006, 10:03

When did TP first get on a racetrack then ? must have been a long time ago to be able to have the experience to teach ?

antonye

11-May-2006, 10:07

Originally posted by weeksy2
When did TP first get on a racetrack then ? must have been a long time ago to be able to have the experience to teach ?

What does that have to do with his ability to teach a prescribed method?

Or are we back onto your sour grapes with CSS again?

weeksy2

11-May-2006, 10:09

No mate, just curious really ? looking at most walks of life and the 'teachers' in them in sport, e.g Golf/Tennis/Footie etc...

All the 'teachers' of tequnique are generally old hands with tonnes and tonnes of experience... All the top coaches in any sport i can think of really have been there and done it for many many years ? wrong ?

I have no sour grapes with CSS, myself and Andy get along really well.. As said... the school was really well run.... just wasn't right for me as a person.

11-May-2006, 10:13

Weeksy - you dont HAVE to be a god at your chosen subject - just have the thorough knowledge to be able to impart to others the right way to do this.

I might have competed horses to International level (tho mid range there) but had the ability to be able to instruct others to above my own personal ability.

I was able to help a dear mate in axe murderers cut his lap times by 1.2/1.3 seconds 3 years ago by pointing out a couple of minor things to him - which he took on board & applied next time out - and I dont race or do track days - but I do watch.

TP - lessons for me please next time you get a road bike out mate!

antonye

11-May-2006, 10:15

I disagree completely. You don't need to be an "old hand" at anything to teach someone else. What is required is a solid understanding of the subject and an ability to convey the meaning and ensure that the pupil understands, spotting their errors and helping them to correct them along the way.

That has nothing to do with experience, as in all walks of life. I'm sure you've been taught by many people who had less experience than you on things like IT courses, but their understanding of the subject and teaching ability makes them a better teacher than the "know it all" old fart that sits in the corner and grunts.

andyb

11-May-2006, 10:16

Originally posted by antonye
I think that's actually part of the point Andy.

If you read the CSS books, you'll see that Keith Code's whole idea was to break "riding a motorcycle, fast" down into the main elements which made you able to do it.

The courses ensure that you are doing all of the basics right first, before moving you on to the more advanced stuff - kind of like making sure that your foundations are fine before building higher.

Keith Code thinks that this is just as important as the more advanced stuff because, after all, if you don't know why you counter steer then how can they effectively teach you advanced techniques in it?

The flippant reply is ....nothing to do with making money then......

I bet shakey or either troy couldnt tell you why they counter steer..........and it hasnt hindered their progress.

I, on the other hand could tell you, and have done an amount of both theory and practical training most would dream about doing............but it doesnt even begin to put me anywhere near them, or probably an average club racer.

Dont get me wrong. i know it would be an interesting experience, (the training, not just TP ;)) It just seems the pace of learning is directed at 1 level. There should be a "higher potential" entrance exam, that could condence the training.

In my line of work there is nothing worse than during training repeating and repeating a particular skill just for trainings sake!

antonye

11-May-2006, 10:22

Originally posted by andyb
In my line of work there is nothing worse than during training repeating and repeating a particular skill just for trainings sake!

But is it though?

Training is all about being familiar with a particular thing, be it body position and muscle control, a feedback feeling or a thought pattern.

The more you repeat the exercise, the more your body learns to adjust / cope / repeat that exercise and you become better at it through familiarity.

The familiarity helps you to recognise when things are not right, and make the minute adjustment that is required to correct yourself and get it right.

Of all people, you should know that training makes you better Andy, otherwise how can you label yourself as "creme de la creme" and argue that it's ok for you to break the speed limits in response to an emergency situation, rather than a kid out on his Gixxer Thou for the first time doing the same speeds but getting his collar felt?

Besides, road riding, track riding and racing are three *very* different animals, and skill in one does not automatically equate to skill in another, as so many of us have found out trying to make the transition from trackdayer to racer!

fil2

11-May-2006, 10:27

Originally posted by CK
Weeksy - you dont HAVE to be a god at your chosen subject - just have the thorough knowledge to be able to impart to others the right way to do this.

I might have competed horses to International level (tho mid range there) but had the ability to be able to instruct others to above my own personal ability.

I was able to help a dear mate in axe murderers cut his lap times by 1.2/1.3 seconds 3 years ago by pointing out a couple of minor things to him - which he took on board & applied next time out - and I dont race or do track days - but I do watch.

TP - lessons for me please next time you get a road bike out mate!

1.2/1.3 seconds per lap improvement..!!! can you please watch me then CK and point out the error of my ways..! as i could certainly benifit from that improvement without the cost of any courses.....niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice....... ...............

i can pay in a nice bottle of plonk.?

Phil

andyb

11-May-2006, 10:34

Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by andyb
In my line of work there is nothing worse than during training repeating and repeating a particular skill just for trainings sake!

But is it though?

Training is all about being familiar with a particular thing, be it body position and muscle control, a feedback feeling or a thought pattern.

The more you repeat the exercise, the more your body learns to adjust / cope / repeat that exercise and you become better at it through familiarity.

The familiarity helps you to recognise when things are not right, and make the minute adjustment that is required to correct yourself and get it right.

Of all people, you should know that training makes you better Andy, otherwise how can you label yourself as "creme de la creme" and argue that it's ok for you to break the speed limits in response to an emergency situation, rather than a kid out on his Gixxer Thou for the first time doing the same speeds but getting his collar felt?

Besides, road riding, track riding and racing are three *very* different animals, and skill in one does not automatically equate to skill in another, as so many of us have found out trying to make the transition from trackdayer to racer!

i tend to agree on the repetition thing and muscle memory, but what im trying to say is i would get it........but then we would keep going and going....boring! People learn at different speeds and this quite rightly appears to do it at the one speed, which equates to me feeling i wouldnt get value for money?

On the comment that road riding v track riding issue i totally agree! they are different, for example a line or route shape through a corner, although the plan remains similar with a start and finish point.

Interestingly there is a thread somewhere where Andy disagreed with me on this............

antonye

11-May-2006, 10:43

Originally posted by andyb

i tend to agree on the repetition thing and muscle memory, but what im trying to say is i would get it........but then we would keep going and going....boring! People learn at different speeds and this quite rightly appears to do it at the one speed, which equates to me feeling i wouldnt get value for money?

Maybe you'd pick it up straight away, maybe not. But bear in mind that it's not just about teaching you the basics but also about them assessing your ability to learn (and understand!) to tailor the groups accordingly.

If you've obviously understood the basic requirements and you can show that you will hit these 100% of the time, then there's no reason you can't move on to the next drill.

While it may seem like slow learning from the outside, the school obviously wants to ensure that you are 100% confident with each level before moving up.

Just remember that he who goes in with a closed mind will never learn anything...

domski

11-May-2006, 10:51

I'd be more than happy to have TP teach me.

I don't care if he's been riding 3 days or 10 years - it's ME that has to apply what he's saying to my riding.

If he's passed the exams then he's as good as anyone else. That's why they have exams!!

Was Keith Code faster than Wayne Rainey? Andy Ibbot faster than Tom Luthi?

TP aint as fast as me at the moment, but I bet he knows how to go faster.

Bastid!

;)

11-May-2006, 10:52

Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by CK
Weeksy - you dont HAVE to be a god at your chosen subject - just have the thorough knowledge to be able to impart to others the right way to do this.

I might have competed horses to International level (tho mid range there) but had the ability to be able to instruct others to above my own personal ability.

I was able to help a dear mate in axe murderers cut his lap times by 1.2/1.3 seconds 3 years ago by pointing out a couple of minor things to him - which he took on board & applied next time out - and I dont race or do track days - but I do watch.

TP - lessons for me please next time you get a road bike out mate!

1.2/1.3 seconds per lap improvement..!!! can you please watch me then CK and point out the error of my ways..! as i could certainly benifit from that improvement without the cost of any courses.....niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice....... ...............

i can pay in a nice bottle of plonk.?

Phil

a racing line is a racing line mate:D

just applied equestian line to motorbike that day! (yeah quit the jokes - I have done racing my self too - but the likes of 1 hp in S/Chasing & hurdles - when I was verrry young;)

2 bends, one track, application on approach to one - and exit on the other. Moved over a tad, smoother entry = better line - bobs was the aunties fingy

chicken

11-May-2006, 11:16

The best in their field in any given discipline often cannot explain what they are doing because it comes to them naturally. And that is why they can't self-coach.

Is it a "time-served" thing then to be qualified to teach? How do you measure this? Is it time on track? Time on a bike? Time spent thinking about the subject? Even if you can answer these questions, you can't assess the quality of the time spent. Many "experienced" riders that have done level 1 CSS come away saying how much they have learnt - which proves my point.

At the end of the day, the point of any training is to improve the skills of the trainee, not the trainer. I (like several people here) would be happy for TP to teach me to ride better because I know that as well as the technical skills (as evidenced by his passing the course) he also has the communication skills to do it (as evidenced by his ramblings in the pub).

Remember that TP will be teaching a lot of people who don't frequent these boards and won't know him. I will bet a significant amount of money that the majority will comment on how good the instruction was and how enjoyable the day was.

weeksy2

11-May-2006, 11:29

for me it's not about how quick or how slow an instructor is

it's about how much knowledge they have.

and whilst me they may spot on with CSS knowledge... once outside of that.... though, a question comes up that requires a little more (or a LOT more) knowledge of 'why is the bike doing this' or 'why when i move this does that happen' ?

Can questions like that be answered without a lot of experience ?

Can the CSS instructors (newbies) answer questions outside of CSS teachings ? or just create robots ?

chicken

11-May-2006, 11:47

Steve, stop it.

Whether you are explicit or not, you are unjustly slighting the reputation of a friend of mine.

Your threads are often antagonistic, which is fine by me if they are constructive but this particular one is not.

weeksy2

11-May-2006, 11:49

It wasn't my thread.... i didn't start the 'is TP good enough' that was Tetol.

I'm not doing anything other than asking the same sodding questions other people are asking too..

This place is often a damn irritation to me.... if you all climbed out of eachothers ar53holes every now and again and said what you were thinking, we might even be able to have a discussion without people getting all uppity.

antonye

11-May-2006, 11:51

Originally posted by weeksy2
Can questions like that be answered without a lot of experience ?

Of course it can - experience is not the same thing as knowledge!

Many, many top level racers are not able to explain why a bike does certain things but they know how to react to it. They come back into the pits and tell the suspension expert, or the tyre expert, or the fuel mapping expert exactly what they felt and the expert then interprets that into a solution.

weeksy2

11-May-2006, 11:52

Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by weeksy2
Can questions like that be answered without a lot of experience ?

Of course it can - experience is not the same thing as knowledge!

Many, many top level racers are not able to explain why a bike does certain things but they know how to react to it. They come back into the pits and tell the suspension expert, or the tyre expert, or the fuel mapping expert exactly what they felt and the expert then interprets that into a solution.

and the fuel/tyre/mapping expert has both extensive knowledge and experience ? of course....

antonye

11-May-2006, 11:54

Originally posted by weeksy2

and the fuel/tyre/mapping expert has both extensive knowledge and experience ? of course....

...not riding a bike, otherwise they'd be in the hot seat?

You've just answered your own question there Steve - the experts have knowledge that is enough to provide a solution *without* having the experience of riding round a track.

andyb

11-May-2006, 12:03

Those that can do,...................:lol::lol:

sorry i couldnt resist!:lol::lol:

weeksy2

11-May-2006, 12:03

Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by weeksy2

and the fuel/tyre/mapping expert has both extensive knowledge and experience ? of course....

...not riding a bike, otherwise they'd be in the hot seat?

You've just answered your own question there Steve - the experts have knowledge that is enough to provide a solution *without* having the experience of riding round a track.

Mannnn i give up totally....

either you're being dense or i'm not phrasing it correctly here.... i'm not sure which is the case but i've got better things to do than really give a monkeys either way.

andyb

11-May-2006, 12:05

Stick to level 1 Steve,.....you wont need no bling brakes! :lol::lol::lol:

antonye

11-May-2006, 12:06

Originally posted by andyb
Those that can do,...................:lol::lol:

sorry i couldnt resist!:lol::lol:

Not too sure if that was aimed at me or weeksy really Andy, as I've already got one trophy for a podium at Brands Hatch this year... ;)

chicken

11-May-2006, 12:06

Originally posted by weeksy2
This place is often a damn irritation to me.... if you all climbed out of eachothers ar53holes every now and again and said what you were thinking, we might even be able to have a discussion without people getting all uppity.

I was halfway through crafting a long and detailed response to this. Then I re-read your post and just thought "whatever"....

andyb

11-May-2006, 12:09

Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by andyb
Those that can do,...................:lol::lol:

sorry i couldnt resist!:lol::lol:

Not too sure if that was aimed at me or weeksy really Andy, as I've already got one trophy for a podium at Brands Hatch this year... ;)

It wasnt aimed at all! Just seemed a good time to add it in.

Now youve got a trophy, you moving up classes then?

antonye

11-May-2006, 12:10

Originally posted by weeksy2
Mannnn i give up totally....

either you're being dense or i'm not phrasing it correctly here.... i'm not sure which is the case but i've got better things to do than really give a monkeys either way.

You're not making yourself clear at all, because you appear to think that experience and knowledge are the same thing.

For example, I played a lot of football in my youth, at school, university and for a professional club. This means that I have a lot of experience of kicking a ball.

However, if you asked me how I managed to curl a ball into the top corner 9 times out of 10, I would not be able to tell you how I do it. This is because I do not have the knowledge about how I make my body kick the ball to get it the same distance, speed, swerve, etc each time.

I would be useless as a football coach. All I would be able to say is "kick it harder", "curl it left more", etc.

Although I have the experience and the ability, I do not have the knowledge .... and this is the difference.

antonye

11-May-2006, 12:13

Originally posted by andyb
Now youve got a trophy, you moving up classes then?

It was only for third. Once trophy does not a champion make!

I have achieved one goal in racing - getting on the podium. Now I need to get more experience and knowledge to be able to repeat that consistently as another goal.

Once I have the building blocks I can then make an assault on the championship!