View Full Version : California Superbike School
Dominic Clegg
23-May-2006, 22:52
i know some you have done this because iv seen pictures of your bikes. it seems a lot of money but is it real worth it? what did you get out of the day?
IMHO YES-but I will let some of the others explain.
John
uncledunnie
24-May-2006, 00:42
Originally posted by Dominic Clegg
......what did you get out of the day?
I seem to remember John getting a new water pump for the Gilera:devil::devil::devil:
I've completed levels 1-3....
Unless you are already a very technical rider I think you will benefit no-end.
I took something new from each level, for example after one level 3 drill I felt very uncomfortable - just did'nt gel for me and the bike felt very unstable- discussed it with the instructor - he suggested a change in foot positioning - wahay - complete transformation to the feel in the corner and it clicked (locking in). That then resulted in me changing my footpeg and lever positions to take maximum advantage from the drill, its that type of attention to detail and interest in you as customer that you are paying for.
For me, worth every penny.
My last thought on the subject would be, if you already fancy yourself a bit you may well wonder whats the point of the level 1 drills and walk away afterwards thinking it was a waste of money- DON'T, they are the fundemental building blocks of something much bigger and better.
Thomas Luthi back on the top spot .......
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 08:13
For me, no, not really. Although i expect a lot of other to disagree.
Don't get me wrong, was a really well run day and the talks from Andy Ibbot are superb. But from a 'riding' perspective, i'm not convinced i learned anything at all.
Certainly nothing was in the course that i didn't 'know' from reading Twist of the Wrist 5 times before the course.
OK, when there you are 'implementing' it as opposed to just reading it. But in theory you could do that on any trackday.
The thing that really did it for me was after each session i'd come in and it would be "yeah that's great Steve, exactly what we were looking for".... ummmmm how does that help me exactly ?
If you want a 1 day thing, i'd say don't.... if you want a 4-10 day training course... then go for it.
Paul James
24-May-2006, 08:56
Don't think it's for ultimate track gods like yourself Steve, aimed at us "mere mortals" I guess. Mind you some pretty successful racers have gone through the CSS system
I'm hoping to do level 1 soon, the season seems pretty well booked up so it must be popular and some go back for refresher courses from time to time.
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 09:13
Originally posted by Paul James
Don't think it's for ultimate track gods like yourself Steve, aimed at us "mere mortals" I guess. Mind you some pretty successful racers have gone through the CSS system
.
Why do i bother ? seriously ???
is no-one allowed to have an opinion any more ???
I'm more than well aware of who's done what and how much sucess Andy and CSS have had with racers, one of my close mates Dan Hegarty who does Superstock is one of Andys students and swears by him....
but that wasn't the question.
the question was "what did YOU get out the day"
FFS
antonye
24-May-2006, 09:55
Originally posted by weeksy2
Why do i bother ? seriously ???
We do sometimes wonder...
Originally posted by Dominic Clegg
i know some you have done this because iv seen pictures of your bikes. it seems a lot of money but is it real worth it? what did you get out of the day?
There's no two ways about it, it's not cheap. Is it worthwhile? Well clearly there's a number of different opinions to choose from - it just depends on who's advice you choose to listen to.
I'm now a coach for the CSS Dom so if you want a chat about how things work during the day etc - I'm more than happy to have a chat about it. I'll u2u you my mobile number.
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 10:12
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by weeksy2
Why do i bother ? seriously ???
We do sometimes wonder...
because the bloke asked a question and i'm not a sheep like a large percentage of people ?
antonye
24-May-2006, 10:18
http://www.ecom-secure.co.uk/antony/wriggle_fishy.gif
neilkeogh
24-May-2006, 10:24
I for one are glad you are not one of the flock.........bloke asks a question and you give your opinion..not a problem there I dont think;)
I actually agree with steve on this!
For someone that has had no training or imput and wants to go do trackdays, i think its pitched at the perfect point, and lets face it where else can you go for this training?
I think its strung out somewhat as a catch all learning curve, and i know i would get frustrated at this. I do consider it sometimes, but then look at the cost. For me level 1 and 2 is equivelent money to a 4 day track day at jerez/almeria/cartegena....................
It is a valid point to talk about some of the racers who have progressed through the courses, but it is equally as valid to look at those who have not..........and still succeeded!
I'm highly sceptical about the worth of such a course to established racers like me. I'm not blowing my trumpet but, I've got quite a lot racing experience I wonder how much I would get out of it....For sure I've got lots of bad habits, I'm no great shakes and well past my racing zenith but, it might be more useful for me to jump in at a higher level than have to go through all preceeding levels with the associated costs.
On the whole, I prefer to listen and talk with my peers and fellow racers about lines, techniques and setup rather than go on some prescribed course where I might actually be getting taught by people with much less experience. I've always learnt something from my peers in that respect and I think I'd get more out of paying for a fellow racer's tracktime and spending a day with him.
from the reports i have read and feedback..its great for road improvements if you can apply them but often on rideouts etc you cant....as for does it make you faster on track..i seriously doubt it........its not a race school is it.?
Phil
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 12:00
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by Dominic Clegg
i know some you have done this because iv seen pictures of your bikes. it seems a lot of money but is it real worth it? what did you get out of the day?
There's no two ways about it, it's not cheap. Is it worthwhile? Well clearly there's a number of different opinions to choose from - it just depends on who's advice you choose to listen to.
I'm now a coach for the CSS Dom so if you want a chat about how things work during the day etc - I'm more than happy to have a chat about it. I'll u2u you my mobile number.
How long are the sessions ? Do you always make it to the end of them ;) ;) ;) :P
Tonio600
24-May-2006, 12:02
Message original : weeksy2
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by weeksy2
Why do i bother ? seriously ???
We do sometimes wonder...
because the bloke asked a question and i'm not a sheep like a large percentage of people ?
http://www.tonio82.co.uk/desmodue/images/desmouton.png
If anyone *genuinely* wants to know more about how it works and how it could be applied to your riding then I'm more than happy to have a chat about it. Just let me know and I'll u2u my number.
fil2 - if it doesn't make you faster on track, why does the reigning 125cc world champion STILL have Andy Ibbott in his corner? If you watched the coverage of the 125 GP on the weekend you could see Andy's smiling face with the rest of Luthi's team as he mounted the podium, Keith and Julian even mentioned him.
No it's not a race school, it's a cornering school. So it's only applicable to people who ride bikes and go around corners ....
:lol:
...So it's only applicable to people who ride bikes and go around corners ....
:lol:
should that be go around corners .. fast without visiting the gravel?
:lol:
Was that a bit below the belt TP? I only say what everyone else is thinking!
Originally posted by TP
If anyone *genuinely* wants to know more about how it works and how it could be applied to your riding then I'm more than happy to have a chat about it. Just let me know and I'll u2u my number.
fil2 - if it doesn't make you faster on track, why does the reigning 125cc world champion STILL have Andy Ibbott in his corner? If you watched the coverage of the 125 GP on the weekend you could see Andy's smiling face with the rest of Luthi's team as he mounted the podium, Keith and Julian even mentioned him.
No it's not a race school, it's a cornering school. So it's only applicable to people who ride bikes and go around corners ....
:lol:
Thats the sign of a good business ...having case studies and " celeberaties " on side.
Im not disputing that it cant make some people faster on track ! im just commenting on what people have told me that they dont feel the skills they were taught were applicable to racing.........
I can only base my assumptions on what others have said, as i have not been on the course.
be good to find out................
:cool:
Originally posted by TP
If anyone *genuinely* wants to know more about how it works and how it could be applied to your riding then I'm more than happy to have a chat about it. Just let me know and I'll u2u my number.
fil2 - if it doesn't make you faster on track, why does the reigning 125cc world champion STILL have Andy Ibbott in his corner? If you watched the coverage of the 125 GP on the weekend you could see Andy's smiling face with the rest of Luthi's team as he mounted the podium, Keith and Julian even mentioned him.
No it's not a race school, it's a cornering school. So it's only applicable to people who ride bikes and go around corners ....
:lol:
smiling faces after luthi being no where for the first 3 rounds!
as far as cornering goes, i would challenge the fact that learning to corner on a track benifits road riding, as a racing/trackday line is a different line to riding on the road.
So TP, you must be able to get us a nice discount...*hinthint* ;)
It's something I'd like to do, it's just the cost of it that's stopped me so far.
I'm guessing that Tom Luthi was in GP's before CSS got hold of him???
So he was probably faster than any of us ever will be anyway!
I'm sure that all the theory is 100% spot on and is good for those capable of translating it to their riding or as a reminder (as in Luthi's case?) to stop bad habits.
I think like Nige/andyb on this one too. I'm curious about CSS, but I'm never gunna be in BSB or GPs, so for me it's money not worth spending. I also think that if you're gunna trundle around in a slow/inter group on a trackday etc - why the hell spend all that money to remain a trackdayer? Albeit maybe a slightly quicker one?
You've either got the skill/balls to be fast or you haven't.
Not knocking CSS, if I was loaded I'd probably do all the levels just out of curiosity - and maybe I'd be a better rider for it too.
:)
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 13:02
Originally posted by domski
You've either got the skill/balls to be fast or you haven't.
TBH I'm pretty much a believer of this, I would like to see what CSS can do for me but the cost for what I think wouldn't work on me is what puts me off.
I know most of the theories but my throttle hand still shuts off when I ask it not too LOL
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 13:04
Do we really think Luthi gets the same tuition as 'joe public' same classes, same sit down for 40 mins....
Well yes and no.... i'm sure he gets that... but i seriously doubt that's ALL he gets....
I'm sure Andy teaches him stuff we never ever get to know.
skidlids
24-May-2006, 13:15
Originally posted by couchcommando
TBH I'm pretty much a believer of this, I would like to see what CSS can do for me but the cost for what I think wouldn't work on me is what puts me off.
I know most of the theories but my throttle hand still shuts off when I ask it not too LOL
Thats pretty much how I feel about it, i'm not a natural racer I have to be taught and I am mostly self taught and do wonder what some professional coaching would do for my racing.
And as per Steve I'm not sure I would get great value for money from the lower levels and at my age its not something \i worry about to much. Evry time I take to the race grid I learn somthing and the main thing I have learnt is don't take it to serious its only my hobby and is there to be enjoyed.
Now if I was trying to make my living from racing a bike I would need all the help I could get along with a bigger pair of balls
Originally posted by weeksy2
Do we really think Luthi gets the same tuition as 'joe public' same classes, same sit down for 40 mins....
Well yes and no.... i'm sure he gets that... but i seriously doubt that's ALL he gets....
I'm sure Andy teaches him stuff we never ever get to know.
...but I think Luthi would be a GP star without that anyway.
Bit like teaching Rooney how to kick a football!!!!
IMHO
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by domski]
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 13:21
Agreed Dom... he was hadly rubbish a few years back... ok, he wasn't winning... but that could be the bike as much as the rider and natural progression.
Dominic - there have been many discussions on this over the years - try a search on here or on Visordown.
It seems to me that those who are used to being taught in other aspects of their lives find it really good - it's something you need to approach with an open mind and be prepared to listen. Those that haven't benefitted from it are often those who think that starting at level one (as everyone does because it is the basic building block on which everything is built) is beneath them and go with preconceived ideas.
It's interesting to see from the comments above that some people don't think it's for them because they are racers and think it's aimed at road riders, whilst others think it's not for them because they are not GP stars. Can't win really, can they! As Tony says, it's aimed at anyone who wants to improve their cornering skills.
It is expensive - but maybe you need to compare the cost of improving your riding, something which is transferable to any bike, with spending the same money on improving your bike. Why not buy/borrow Twist of the Wrist and see what you think? (I believe most people find book 2 comes before book 1 but am happy to be corrected)
And no, I've not done it (I don't have a bike licence!) but I have listened to Andy and the others doing their stuff on 3 x 2 day courses now and also listened to what many of the students have had to say about their experiences of the school.
Incidentally Dom, yes Luthi was in 125s before he got involved with Andy in early 2005. In 2004 he finished 25th in the championship, in 2005 he won it - with the same team. Something must have changed...
Chris Wood
24-May-2006, 13:28
Abstract thoughts on this, having completed level 1 and read the books.
Learning is - action, reflection, theory and application. This is how you improve performance.
If you can do this with your riding, road or track, then fine. Any 'school' encourages you to do this as a process of improvment.
Rather than just reinforcing good and bad habits on continous trackdays etc..the school could help introduce you to this cycle of learning an improvment.
I am puzzled by people who can't articulate what went right or wrong, what they learnt and what they are doing differently to improve. The what has to be specific, not just - follow others, brake later, go faster?
By breaking learning down into small measureable chunks it becomes easier to act, learn and apply, so that it becomes 'natural'.
If you can and do this already, don't go to school, if you want to learn how then go!
IMHO
I usually use the boards as a break from work.....;)
This is the major problem with it as I see it. You have to start at the bottom - there is no account taken of your experience. It's a prescribed course which, AIUI (correct me if I am wrong) seems to assume that there is one way only.
Admittedly, I don't know the content of the course so, I am making assumptions based on hearsay and what others have related here but, if I am going to pay £100's to listen to someone tell me how to adjust my pegs, levers, seating position etc then I am not going to be very happy. What I am looking for is that final 0.5s per laps to get me from 8th or so into the top 3. Will CSS help me find that? If it can't then I'm not interested.
I read Twist of the Wrist - found it boring and turgid. Hardly likely to enthuse the reader. I'd much rather get out on the track and ride with someone who beats me regularly. I will definitely learn something from that.
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 13:34
What I find hard to understand is that the basics are the same for everyone ? Surely different people ride differently ?
We used to hear the same about suspension set up yet when you read deeper riders have their bikes set at opposite ends of the scale and still lap similar, so isn't this the same with the riding too ? Surely some riders use a 250 style and others use a point and squirt style ? Is the technique for both these styles catered for at CSS, or does it not matter as both these styles use the same basics ? :)
Chris Wood
24-May-2006, 13:35
I will definitely learn something from that.
What will you learn?
Luthi started racing in 1997 when he was 11. He finished top 3 in both of his first 2 seasons, then won titles in 1999 and 2000. In 2002 he was 3rd in the German 125 Championship and 2nd in the European 125 Championship.
He also did the second half of the GP season - in 2002. He got a top 10 in his 3rd ever GP. He did 7 GP's that year.
He then did a full season in 2003, getting 2nd place at the 6th GP of the season narrowly beaten by Dani Pedrosa, his 3rd top ten to that point. He also got a 7th at Assen and a 4th in Malaysia. He missed 4 GP's and still finished 15th in the championship.
In 2004 he had a string of crashes and injuries - that's why he only managed 25th overall.
At which point did CSS make him fast???
I'm always analysing my riding on the track.
I will watch and learn where he goes faster...where he gets more speed from..be it a different line, a later turn-in, later braking point, fewer gear changes etc. Even mid-race I've picked up pointers from others and found that little bit extra when I needed it.
The fact that he beats me, has faster times etc means that there is something to be learnt because the whole point of track-riding or racing is to be the fastest.
How will I get this from an instructor who may have never raced or may not be a particularly good racer with a good track record?
Chris Wood
24-May-2006, 13:50
Good at a task, and the ability to make others good at a task, are separate and independant skills.
If you don't want to go to school, ask Andy what his daily rate for 121 coaching is?
I work with top performance coaches in a wide variety of fields, sports to business to life....I'm an advocate of assisted learning.
There's a story about boiling a frog....
Originally posted by twpd
... How will I get this from an instructor who may have never raced or may not be a particularly good racer with a good track record? ...
Why does he have to be fast to understand the theory and possess the communications skills to get that across? I don't remember seeing Tiger Wood's coach winning any majors recently!
Christ, there are so many things to respond to in this thread but I don't have all afternoon! I have a meeting to go to ...
Dom, my understanding is that Andy started working with Thomas either at the end of his 2004 season (25th) or the start of 05 (1st) - I think those results speak for themselves.
Should I ring Andy and ask him to take a look at the thread? He might post, he does occasionally. His arrangement with Luthi's team is for one to one instruction - if you've got the cash you too can have Andy Ibbott coaching you one to one! Obviously on a school day you don't benefit from that sort of student:coach ratio but then you're not paying the same fee's. I would also point out that on a school day, anyone working for the school is available to you to ask questions - including Andy. In all the school days I've been to I've only ever seen the classroom sessions have been conducted by Andy. So he and all the coaches are accessible.
He's a big TV star now, and a Green Day bassist lookalike! So pick his brain while you can!
http://www.greenday.net/mikedirnt.html
http://www.greenday.net/mikephoto.jpg
http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/uk/ssl/images/content/Classroom%201%20TN.jpg
:lol:
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 14:05
Yup, would be great to hear from Andy as this is an excellent thread.
Originally posted by TP
... How will I get this from an instructor who may have never raced or may not be a particularly good racer with a good track record? ...
........Why does he have to be fast to understand the theory and possess the communications skills to get that across? I don't remember seeing Tiger Wood's coach winning any majors recently!
Ahhh...so you'll subscribe to the school of thought that allows "textbook engineers" to come out of university with a degree, call themselves engineers and then have the real engineers pick up the pieces behind them?
;)
It's a bit like IT bods with MCSEs thinking they know it all.
So Tony - you're a coach. Teach me to go fast then. :P
To bring Tiger Woods into it is missing the point entirely. He already has an inate ability that cannot be taught - merely harnessed, re-directed etc. We're talking about ordinary mortals instead.
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by twpd]
Originally posted by Chris Wood
Good at a task, and the ability to make others good at a task, are separate and independant skills.
I know this. I'm a qualified bike instructor and used to work as a technical trainer for a large american corporation in microelectronics.
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 14:27
Originally posted by twpd
Originally posted by TP
... How will I get this from an instructor who may have never raced or may not be a particularly good racer with a good track record? ...
Ahhh...so you'll subscribe to the school of thought that allows "textbook engineers" to come out of university with a degree, call themselves engineers and then have the real engineers pick up the pieces behind them?
;)
It's a bit like IT bods with MCSEs thinking they know it all.
So Tony - you're a coach. Teach me to go fast then. :P
i love you Nige :)
I still won't have your children Steve! ;)
I wonder if we could have a section based on learning to ride.
I look at some pictures people have posted or their avantars of themselves riding, and think to my self that looks good, or your body is wrong there and so on.
Im sure the old story of if it looks right it is............
So how about a riding surgery?
start with me if you like?
Originally posted by twpd
I'm always analysing my riding on the track.
I will watch and learn where he goes faster...where he gets more speed from..be it a different line, a later turn-in, later braking point, fewer gear changes etc. Even mid-race I've picked up pointers from others and found that little bit extra when I needed it.
The fact that he beats me, has faster times etc means that there is something to be learnt because the whole point of track-riding or racing is to be the fastest.
How will I get this from an instructor who may have never raced or may not be a particularly good racer with a good track record?
makes sense to me
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 14:40
Originally posted by andyb
start with me if you like?
you're fat and slow.
next ?
Chris Wood
24-May-2006, 14:44
Originally posted by twpd
Originally posted by Chris Wood
Good at a task, and the ability to make others good at a task, are separate and independant skills.
I know this. I'm a qualified bike instructor and used to work as a technical trainer for a large american corporation in microelectronics.
Is this not an opposite position to your earlier quote, 'how can a non racer make me quicker?'
A coach's role is to help you identify and articulate how to maximise your inate talent and abilty, at whatever level, to improve your performance.
Tiger Woods is highly relevant, he is constantly striving to improve his performance. Regardless of your staring point, this is the goal of improvement, the basic premise is still the same.
Yes we all apply our level of skill, knowledge and behaviour differently to achieve the same results.
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by andyb
start with me if you like?
you're fat and slow.
next ?
:lol: Now tootle off and do some laps without braking!
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by andyb]
Originally posted by twpd
Originally posted by TP
... How will I get this from an instructor who may have never raced or may not be a particularly good racer with a good track record? ...
........Why does he have to be fast to understand the theory and possess the communications skills to get that across? I don't remember seeing Tiger Wood's coach winning any majors recently!
Ahhh...so you'll subscribe to the school of thought that allows "textbook engineers" to come out of university with a degree, call themselves engineers and then have the real engineers pick up the pieces behind them?
;)
It's a bit like IT bods with MCSEs thinking they know it all.
You plonker! As someone who has had two MCSE's (NT4.0 and Win2k) I can certainly tell you when I'm hiring people I look for experience and initiative, not 'industry certification'! Having an MCSE just means a recruiter will put your name forward for a role where he wouldn't if you didn't have it. That's the only benefit!
So Tony - you're a coach. Teach me to go fast then. :P
You might not believe it, and I know there are people on this thread who don't ... but I honestly believe I can make you faster.
To bring Tiger Woods into it is missing the point entirely. He already has an inate ability that cannot be taught - merely harnessed, re-directed etc. We're talking about ordinary mortals instead.
But it is relevant - it explains the coach/student relationship and that the coach themselves don't necessarily need to be high achievers themselves to be able to help the student become that. If that makes sense ....
Too many posts in this thread to keep up!
One more post to come ...
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 14:55
I do believe you Tony.... but i also believe Skids could make me faster, so could Phil and so could TWPD.....
knowledge and experience....
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 14:55
Originally posted by andyb
I wonder if we could have a section based on learning to ride.
I look at some pictures people have posted or their avantars of themselves riding, and think to my self that looks good, or your body is wrong there and so on.
Im sure the old story of if it looks right it is............
So how about a riding surgery?
start with me if you like?
Different people ride with a different style, there is no set way to ride or position to be in, which brings me back to my original question regarding do css teach you one way and is that way the same regardless of your style or the type of bike you ride or is it tailored to you ?
I've just gotten off the phone to Johnny Haynes. Andy Ibbott is busy at the moment and doesn't have the time to review and post ... but, Johnny forwarded me an e-mail that he sent me (to my old work account, I forgot to update my e-mail address details) when the thread about me passing and becoming a coach was being debated. He asked me to paste it in so here goes ...
Originally dribbled by Johnny Haynes, Chief Riding Coach of the CSS and all round ****taker of all things Ducati
Tony
I have just read through the thread on the DCS board about you passing your exams to become a qualified coach and I found it fascinating!
I was surprised how much opinion varied about riding and training and of course about CSS itself. Some of the participants seem to have a really good handle on what the school, and training in general, is all about and some seem to be guessing so I thought I would offer my opinion on some of the points myself - if you think it suitable could you post it on my behalf as I am not a member?
Pace of learning - Although we do teach the same techniques to novices and world champions alike we teach them in different ways and with different levels of application. I personally match students to coaches to make sure a guy with 3 years racing experience gets a coach who understands his needs. That student may not need 20 minutes practicing rolling on through a turn, but equally he may not fully understand the finite subtleties of good throttle control, and with help and practice he may develop a much better feel for EXACTLY when he should open the gas in a turn, ultimately finding himself 0.1 seconds in every turn and a total of over 1 second per lap. I have been coaching this stuff at every school CSS Europe has hosted in the last 9 years and even now, every time I take a lap to myself and try to go fast, I still think about my throttle control, about where to turn, about making sure I am relaxed… all level 1 stuff.
What makes a good coach - As the guy who trains all CSS coaches I guess I have more experience than most on this subject. I think it is fair to say that CSS coaches are well respected and as such I do a pretty good job, so I hope my opinion is worth something to you. The first shocking statement I will make is that riding skill is not the most important element of being a CSS coach. Obviously any applicant has to ride well, but more important is the desire to be 100% commited to the job, the depth of understanding that only commited guys can achieve, the ability to communicate this clearly and concisely, a genuine desire to help every student, a good work ethic, the ability to be able to accept 'input' from other coaches and staff and act on it positively and finally an absolute passion for doing this! There is not one coach on the staff who is there for free track time, or for the money etc, they are all there because they have a genuine desire to help every rider they meet.
Experience v Knowledge - There were some really good points made on this subject and I don't think I have much to add but I will share my own personal experience on this subject: When I first met Andy Ibbott in 1995/6 I was a racer, and having won at my first meeting and set a lap record at my second, I was a cocky racer! I remember sitting in his front room discussing the school, which was embryonic then, and said "Nah, I don't really think the school can teach me anything" That quote still haunts me now! Despite being in research for my job, I had no real idea of how I went fast and in retrospect, no idea of how I could go faster, but I didn't realise then - I just needed stickier tyres, better suspension and more power….
When I finally did the Level 1 at the school in '97 I was blown away - It didn't show me anything I didn't already do, but it explained why and how I did it and allowed me to understand how I could change it to make it better. It was this knowledge that allowed me to look at myself and ultimately at other riders and be able to help them too, not the experience I had from my previous 15 years of riding.
The 'grilling' exam is designed to make sure any potential coaches have a deep understanding of this 'knowledge' and that they know how it all connects together, it is a much deeper understanding than we expect of any student, and this is the primary tool for being able to successfully coach any rider - even one much faster than us.
Weeksy - I have seen and heard of the many arguments that Weeksy has caused and been involved with over the last year or so and I feel for him! I do not want to jump in and start having a pop at him, in fact I would like to sit down with a few beers and get to know him as I am sure we could have some interesting conversations! I do agree that the school is not for him... but lets be honest, it is not for everybody.
If you reach a point In your riding where you are stuck, or your rate of improvement is not enough and you decide you WANT help, then training is the way to go. Until you want it there is no point.
We have seen racers pushed into doing the course by their manager, sons by their fathers, friends paying for other friends etc. In all these cases there is less percieved value to the course, less desire to try hard to gain a benefit, less interest in general, and as a result there is less benefit to them. In all these cases I would advise against booking in the first place!
General - I too would like to congratulate TP as he moved heaven and earth to make it to Rockingham on Tuesday and despite some hiccups on the day he maintained his composure and proved his worthiness - well done mate!
As for the general level of discussion I am impressed and will try to look in on it more often - despite the association with Ducati…
Cheers guys.
Johnny
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by TP]
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 14:56
Tiger Woods coach doesn't have to keep up with him round the course to see what he's doing tho' ;) ;)
Originally posted by Grib
So TP, you must be able to get us a nice discount...*hinthint* ;)
It's something I'd like to do, it's just the cost of it that's stopped me so far.
Sorry, I'd love to help ... but Johnny may feed me to the other coaches ...
I doubt Ibbott could keep up with Luthi, but he's still helping him :)
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 15:07
Originally posted by couchcommando
Originally posted by andyb
I wonder if we could have a section based on learning to ride.
I look at some pictures people have posted or their avantars of themselves riding, and think to my self that looks good, or your body is wrong there and so on.
Im sure the old story of if it looks right it is............
So how about a riding surgery?
start with me if you like?
Different people ride with a different style, there is no set way to ride or position to be in, which brings me back to my original question regarding do css teach you one way and is that way the same regardless of your style or the type of bike you ride or is it tailored to you ?
1 style... 1 position...... drills... all the same.. .same braking point... same turn in... same apex.....
everything the same...
you are all assimilated :ninja::borg::borg:
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 15:07
I do have yet another question, if the instruction and CSS way is proved to work and will make me faster why aren't all the instructors who have done all the courses and know all the theories winning at the top level ?
As we know the instructors aren't all winning championships so why not ? They have done all the courses and know all the theory inside out, we are being told css will make us faster and all we need to do is practice so I'm struggling to understand why the css guys aren't the quickest of the lot ?
Genuine question altho it may not have come across as I want it too :)
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 15:10
Johnny H, i'd be more than happy to sit and chat with you fella.... although i may not be the advocate of the school.... i did enjoy my day there.
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by couchcommando
Originally posted by andyb
I wonder if we could have a section based on learning to ride.
I look at some pictures people have posted or their avantars of themselves riding, and think to my self that looks good, or your body is wrong there and so on.
Im sure the old story of if it looks right it is............
So how about a riding surgery?
start with me if you like?
Different people ride with a different style, there is no set way to ride or position to be in, which brings me back to my original question regarding do css teach you one way and is that way the same regardless of your style or the type of bike you ride or is it tailored to you ?
1 style... 1 position...... drills... all the same.. .same braking point... same turn in... same apex.....
everything the same...
you are all assimilated :ninja::borg::borg:
It seems to me you have a very poor recollection of what gets said on a school day Steve. It differs from my recollection of my days as a student there. I remember talking to Andy about different lines and how they relate to turning points etc - he sent me out and got me turning before the marker and after it so I'd know the difference it made to me. Then you can choose what works best for you - but the important thing is that you now know what works for you and what doesn't, and what the significance of having a turning point is.
If you felt it worked like that why didn't you speak to Paul Debnam about it? You had one of the schools most experienced coaches allocated to you on your day.
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 15:13
TP, i spoke to PAul in depth after each session and spoke to Andy in private during the day and after the day via mail and phone.
uncledunnie
24-May-2006, 15:13
At the end of last year I had reached a brick wall, i wanted to lap quicker, needed to corner faster, felt i could go quicker but just didn't know how.
went through levels 2 and 3 earlier in the year and now the wall is on its way down.
I wasn't taught how to race, I was taught several techniques to improve the safety and efficiency of my cornering. I now put in far less effort, know what I am doing much more so than before, and just as importantly why i am doing it.
My track riding is smoother and quicker as a direct result.
Maybe not as quick and smooth as Geoff Spencer (for example) but much better than it was.
For me, it exceeded my expectations and delivered the results i was looking for.
I am not sure however that the regular UK days are as good as the 2 day camps for the development of an already experienced rider/racer due to pupil/student ratio's and the requirement for more detailed/frequent communication.
Originally posted by TP
Dom, my understanding is that Andy started working with Thomas either at the end of his 2004 season (25th) or the start of 05 (1st) - I think those results speak for themselves.
I'm sure Andy helped a bit, but it's clear to see that Luthi was balistically fast BEFORE Andy came along, and is not super fast BECAUSE Andy came along.
You can't polish a turd...
AND, Luthi finished 25th in 2004 due to non-finishes and injury - not becasue he was slow!!!
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by domski]
Originally posted by couchcommando
I do have yet another question, if the instruction and CSS way is proved to work and will make me faster why aren't all the instructors who have done all the courses and know all the theories winning at the top level ?
As we know the instructors aren't all winning championships so why not ? They have done all the courses and know all the theory inside out, we are being told css will make us faster and all we need to do is practice so I'm struggling to understand why the css guys aren't the quickest of the lot ?
Genuine question altho it may not have come across as I want it too :)
Because you're making the HUGEST assumption of all - that every student can APPLY the theory the same way.
At the end of the day, all the knowledge in the world won't change your comfort zone etc. It's still down to how the individual applies the knowledge.
When you were sitting in Maths class at school with all your other students - did you all get the same marks on your exam?
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by TP
Dom, my understanding is that Andy started working with Thomas either at the end of his 2004 season (25th) or the start of 05 (1st) - I think those results speak for themselves.
I'm sure Andy helped a bit, but it's clear to see that Luthi was balistically fast BEFORE Andy came along, and is not super fast BECAUSE Andy came along.
You can't polish a turd...
We all start from different points, we all have differing goals but importantly - Andy improved Luthi's results, and I'm sure he could improve yours and you're a turd!
:lol:
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 15:18
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by couchcommando
I do have yet another question, if the instruction and CSS way is proved to work and will make me faster why aren't all the instructors who have done all the courses and know all the theories winning at the top level ?
As we know the instructors aren't all winning championships so why not ? They have done all the courses and know all the theory inside out, we are being told css will make us faster and all we need to do is practice so I'm struggling to understand why the css guys aren't the quickest of the lot ?
Genuine question altho it may not have come across as I want it too :)
Because you're making the HUGEST assumption of all - that every student can APPLY the theory the same way.
At the end of the day, all the knowledge in the world won't change your comfort zone etc. It's still down to how the individual applies the knowledge.
When you were sitting in Maths class at school with all your other students - did you all get the same marks on your exam?
So basically, if the student fails in the 'application' they won't actually be any quicker/better ?
hmmmm
I think you need to go into it with an open mind, try and start from scratch like they're trying to teach you. If you go there thinking 'I've done this for years, my way's fine' and don't try anything new, then you'll never get anything from it.
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by couchcommando
I do have yet another question, if the instruction and CSS way is proved to work and will make me faster why aren't all the instructors who have done all the courses and know all the theories winning at the top level ?
As we know the instructors aren't all winning championships so why not ? They have done all the courses and know all the theory inside out, we are being told css will make us faster and all we need to do is practice so I'm struggling to understand why the css guys aren't the quickest of the lot ?
Genuine question altho it may not have come across as I want it too :)
Because you're making the HUGEST assumption of all - that every student can APPLY the theory the same way.
At the end of the day, all the knowledge in the world won't change your comfort zone etc. It's still down to how the individual applies the knowledge.
When you were sitting in Maths class at school with all your other students - did you all get the same marks on your exam?
So basically, if the student fails in the 'application' they won't actually be any quicker/better ?
hmmmm
I'm sure you can shovel a few more words into my mouth for me while you're at it Steve!
No - if the student is struggling with the application then they are coached on track whilst they are actually doing it. That's why each student is allocated a riding coach for on track coaching as well as having Andy in the classroom.
There's classroom based tuition and on track tuition, don't you love how the school covers all these aspects of learning ;)
Every coach bar none is there with the goal of seeing their students improve, if the student is struggling they'll get help - it's that simple.
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by TP
Dom, my understanding is that Andy started working with Thomas either at the end of his 2004 season (25th) or the start of 05 (1st) - I think those results speak for themselves.
I'm sure Andy helped a bit, but it's clear to see that Luthi was balistically fast BEFORE Andy came along, and is not super fast BECAUSE Andy came along.
You can't polish a turd...
We all start from different points, we all have differing goals but importantly - Andy improved Luthi's results, and I'm sure he could improve yours and you're a turd!
:lol:
But Luthi was already a GP podium finisher.
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's? Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 15:24
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by couchcommando
I do have yet another question, if the instruction and CSS way is proved to work and will make me faster why aren't all the instructors who have done all the courses and know all the theories winning at the top level ?
As we know the instructors aren't all winning championships so why not ? They have done all the courses and know all the theory inside out, we are being told css will make us faster and all we need to do is practice so I'm struggling to understand why the css guys aren't the quickest of the lot ?
Genuine question altho it may not have come across as I want it too :)
Because you're making the HUGEST assumption of all - that every student can APPLY the theory the same way.
At the end of the day, all the knowledge in the world won't change your comfort zone etc. It's still down to how the individual applies the knowledge.
When you were sitting in Maths class at school with all your other students - did you all get the same marks on your exam?
No I always came top ;)
So say the student has had all thw knowledge and is carrying it out as per the book but can't go quicker what next ?
I do want to know as I have my comfort zone and I would like to know how css would help me go quicker without going outside this zone :)
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 15:27
Should they offer money back if you don't go quicker ?
antonye
24-May-2006, 15:27
Originally posted by domski
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's? Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
But didn't you post timesheets showing that you were quicker than Toseland (World Superbike Champion) and yet you've ... not ... won ... much ... ;)
Originally posted by couchcommando
Should they offer money back if you don't go quicker ?
Ring Andy and find out! You might be surprised at the answer you get.
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by domski
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's? Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
But didn't you post timesheets showing that you were quicker than Toseland (World Superbike Champion) and yet you've ... not ... won ... much ... ;)
Not sure I see your point?
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by domski
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's? Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
But didn't you post timesheets showing that you were quicker than Toseland (World Superbike Champion) and yet you've ... not ... won ... much ... ;)
quote of the day! :lol::lol::lol:
well done Mr E!:lol:
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 15:30
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by couchcommando
Should they offer money back if you don't go quicker ?
Ring Andy and find out! You might be surprised at the answer you get.
Hmmm you're doing a sterling job here TP :) I have loads of questions as I do want to improve but am always wary of spending my money ;)
I bet answering all these wasn't in the job description :P
Originally posted by CK
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by domski
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's? Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
But didn't you post timesheets showing that you were quicker than Toseland (World Superbike Champion) and yet you've ... not ... won ... much ... ;)
quote of the day! :lol::lol::lol:
well done Mr E!:lol:
How is that quote of the day?
It doesn't even make sense or have anything to do with Andy Ibbot making Luthi fast.
antonye
24-May-2006, 15:32
Originally posted by domski
Not sure I see your point?
You're saying that Luthi was always fast, CSS didn't help.
You posted charts showing you were quicker than Toseland.
Toseland went on to be World Superbike Champion.
You're just a fat bum with a bad haircut.
Does that help? :P
Murray Mint
24-May-2006, 15:34
Leave his hair out of it.:lol::lol::lol:
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 15:35
No getting off track here, some good reading in here :)
What I would like to know is how some training would let me brake later, corner faster and open the throttle earlier.
At the moment it is my limits that are stopping me doing this not the bikes.
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by domski
Not sure I see your point?
You're saying that Luthi was always fast, CSS didn't help.
You posted charts showing you were quicker than Toseland.
Toseland went on to be World Superbike Champion.
You're just a fat bum with a bad haircut.
Does that help? :P
I didn't say CSS didn't help. I said that CSS wasn't responsible for Luthi being so fast.
I was faster than Toseland - that is a fact, as proven.
The two subjects have nothing in common though Ant.
Originally posted by domski
But Luthi was already a GP podium finisher.
So why wasn't he winning and why was he crashing so much?
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
Not true, Luthi went from finishing 25th and crashing a lot, to winning the championship and achieving a consistency he never had before. He certainly had the potential but who do you think helped him identify the reasons he was crashing so much and helped him iron that out?
Hrmmm???
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's?
Don't know mate, you'll have to ask him.
Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
Obviously Luthi already had a shedload of talent, no one is disputing that. But the facts are that the season before Andy started coaching him he crashed a lot and finished 25th in the standings. The next year, with Andy coaching, he stops crashing anywhere near as much as he used to and wins the championship. That is fact, how you interpret the change is up to you.
I'd quite like to have that on my coaching CV.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
:D Clearly he had talent - otherwise his team wouldn't have invested the money in his riding getting Andy to coach Thomas 1:1.
But as I said above, how do you explain his newfound consistency and from going from 25th in the championship to winning it the next year? You honestly don't think that Andy had anything to do with that? Fair enough I suppose ...
Originally posted by couchcommando
No getting off track here, some good reading in here :)
What I would like to know is how some training would let me brake later, corner faster and open the throttle earlier.
At the moment it is my limits that are stopping me doing this not the bikes.
I'll give you a ring later tonight and we can have a chat about it if you like.
I'm off to apply some 'Prince 2' theory ;) Stakeholder comms meeting!
antonye
24-May-2006, 15:39
Originally posted by domski
I didn't say CSS didn't help. I said that CSS wasn't responsible for Luthi being so fast.
I was faster than Toseland - that is a fact, as proven.
The two subjects have nothing in common though Ant.
You've also lost your sense of humour in this post.
:rolleye:
uncledunnie
24-May-2006, 15:40
I seem to remember from one of the classroom sessions Andy (?) saying it was far easier to stop someone who is very fast from crashing than it was to make someone who is slow very fast.
Better start crashing then.......
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 15:40
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by domski
I didn't say CSS didn't help. I said that CSS wasn't responsible for Luthi being so fast.
I was faster than Toseland - that is a fact, as proven.
The two subjects have nothing in common though Ant.
You've also lost your sense of humour in this post.
:rolleye:
It's you cheeky Belgians ;) ;) ;) ;)
Originally posted by TP
I'll give you a ring later tonight and we can have a chat about it if you like.
Please do, he's driving me mad having a debate about it all with me!
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by domski
But Luthi was already a GP podium finisher.
So why wasn't he winning and why was he crashing so much?
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
Not true, Luthi went from finishing 25th and crashing a lot, to winning the championship and achieving a consistency he never had before. He certainly had the potential but who do you think helped him identify the reasons he was crashing so much and helped him iron that out?
Hrmmm???
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's?
Don't know mate, you'll have to ask him.
Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
Obviously Luthi already had a shedload of talent, no one is disputing that. But the facts are that the season before Andy started coaching him he crashed a lot and finished 25th in the standings. The next year, with Andy coaching, he stops crashing anywhere near as much as he used to and wins the championship. That is fact, how you interpret the change is up to you.
I'd quite like to have that on my coaching CV.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
:D Clearly he had talent - otherwise his team wouldn't have invested the money in his riding getting Andy to coach Thomas 1:1.
But as I said above, how do you explain his newfound consistency and from going from 25th in the championship to winning it the next year? You honestly don't think that Andy had anything to do with that? Fair enough I suppose ...
I never said that Andy/CSS had nothing to do with the results that Luthi achieved.
What I actually said was, that Luthi was already blindingly fast and a GP podium finisher, and that was NOT down to CSS.
I also never said that Andy/CSS had nothing to do with Luthi winning the Championship.
It takes a bit more than a 1:1 riding coach to win any Championship, let alone a GP Championship.
You're all very good putting 'spin' on things.
Originally posted by antonye
Originally posted by domski
I didn't say CSS didn't help. I said that CSS wasn't responsible for Luthi being so fast.
I was faster than Toseland - that is a fact, as proven.
The two subjects have nothing in common though Ant.
You've also lost your sense of humour in this post.
:rolleye:
No I haven't :P
I'm just being a pedant that's all ;)
:)
TP
How about you take me round cadwell for the day at the DSC track day....show me how it is done and then i can see if the course works..??...
im serious and genuine.?
Phil
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by domski
But Luthi was already a GP podium finisher.
So why wasn't he winning and why was he crashing so much?
Everyone associated with CSS make out like he was some club racer and Andy Ibbot turned him in to a GP Champion.
You're being misleading.
Not true, Luthi went from finishing 25th and crashing a lot, to winning the championship and achieving a consistency he never had before. He certainly had the potential but who do you think helped him identify the reasons he was crashing so much and helped him iron that out?
Hrmmm???
How many true (normal people) CSS customers has Andy taken from club racing to GP's?
Don't know mate, you'll have to ask him.
Not doubting Andy one bit - just trying to bring a bit of reality to this thread. CSS did NOT turn a 25th placed rider into a World Champion.
Obviously Luthi already had a shedload of talent, no one is disputing that. But the facts are that the season before Andy started coaching him he crashed a lot and finished 25th in the standings. The next year, with Andy coaching, he stops crashing anywhere near as much as he used to and wins the championship. That is fact, how you interpret the change is up to you.
I'd quite like to have that on my coaching CV.
I don't suppose the fact he was on a factory Honda, been in GP's 4 years, was bloody silly fast anyway AND the fact Kalio couldn't help but fall off - had nothing to do with it?
:D Clearly he had talent - otherwise his team wouldn't have invested the money in his riding getting Andy to coach Thomas 1:1.
But as I said above, how do you explain his newfound consistency and from going from 25th in the championship to winning it the next year? You honestly don't think that Andy had anything to do with that? Fair enough I suppose ...
I never said that Andy/CSS had nothing to do with the results that Luthi achieved.
What I actually said was, that Luthi was already blindingly fast and a GP podium finisher, and that was NOT down to CSS.
I also never said that Andy/CSS had nothing to do with Luthi winning the Championship.
It takes a bit more than a 1:1 riding coach to win any Championship, let alone a GP Championship.
You're all very good putting 'spin' on things.
ha!! Nothing to do with your interpretation then ;)
My task for you this afternoon my young padewon is to look up an article on the web on "Entrenched Thought" ... once you've read that, there's another theory you might find interesting ... it's called "Groupthink"
:D
And then you might want to look up "Patronising bastid"
:lol:
couchcommando
24-May-2006, 15:47
Originally posted by fil2
im serious and genuine.?
Phil
You cut and pasted that from your 'other' classified ads ;) ;)
Look, I've no doubt that Andy has helped Tom - otherwise he wouldn't still be there would he.
My point was just that everyone was making out that CSS was responsible for Luthi being so fast.
My personal view, looking at the available evidence (I think I've investigated more than most - I'll assume that though) is that Tom was already fast before. Maybe Andy just helped him stop crashing - who knows? Nobody can answer that, not even Tom or Andy, coz we'd never know what would have happened had they not met.
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by domski]
Originally posted by fil2
TP
How about you take me round cadwell for the day at the DSC track day....show me how it is done and then i can see if the course works..??...
im serious and genuine.?
Phil
well what do you think TP.....im faster than these wannabe's on this thread.. i have beaten them all......
If you can help me then deffo the CSS can help them...????
Phil
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 15:58
Originally posted by domski
Look, I've no doubt that Andy has helped Tom - otherwise he wouldn't still be there would he.
My point was just that everyone was making out that CSS was responsible for Luthi being so fast.
My personal view, looking at the available evidence (I think I've investigated more than most - I'll assume that though) is that Tom was already fast before. Maybe Andy just helped him stop crashing - who knows? Nobody can answer that, not even Tom or Andy, coz we'd never know what would have happened had they not met.
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by domski]
Based upon some email and phone call disscussions with Andy, i can tell you that Andy can tell you in quite concise detail what was wrong with Luthi's riding and how he improved him, so much so that when Luthi rang Andy and told him he'd qualified badly, Andy could tell me why and what corner before Luthi even told him...
he was actually correct.
It was to do at that time with 'blind' corners and picking out observation markers for positioning and braking/turning.
skidlids
24-May-2006, 16:00
Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by fil2
TP
How about you take me round cadwell for the day at the DSC track day....show me how it is done and then i can see if the course works..??...
im serious and genuine.?
Phil
well what do you think TP.....im faster than these wannabe's on this thread.. i have beaten them all......
If you can help me then deffo the CSS can help them...????
Phil
Does that mean it will make me younger
As I use to be faster as a young stupid idiot of a teenager, just an old plodder now that i'm well into my 40s
You are missing the point, Phil. What you do on track starts with practising what you've been taught in the classroom. Following someone round isn't going to help without having been taught something before you get out there.
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by domski
Look, I've no doubt that Andy has helped Tom - otherwise he wouldn't still be there would he.
My point was just that everyone was making out that CSS was responsible for Luthi being so fast.
My personal view, looking at the available evidence (I think I've investigated more than most - I'll assume that though) is that Tom was already fast before. Maybe Andy just helped him stop crashing - who knows? Nobody can answer that, not even Tom or Andy, coz we'd never know what would have happened had they not met.
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by domski]
Based upon some email and phone call disscussions with Andy, i can tell you that Andy can tell you in quite concise detail what was wrong with Luthi's riding and how he improved him, so much so that when Luthi rang Andy and told him he'd qualified badly, Andy could tell me why and what corner before Luthi even told him...
he was actually correct.
It was to do at that time with 'blind' corners and picking out observation markers for positioning and braking/turning.
So Tom Luthi would never have won a world title if he hadn't been coached by Andy?
psychlist
24-May-2006, 16:06
Never done any track tuition let alone a CSS course but I can see distinct advantages to those that can learn to analyse their riding technique and timing.
How can you consistently brake later into a corner, turn in faster and get the power on earlier if you don't know where or when you were doing those things to start with? Granted there are other options out there but CSS (Andy Ibbott specifically) is extremely good at getting the message across to the point where you can improve yourself. As to value for money, that's a very personal concept depending on how much dosh you have to start with and what the perceived benefits are.
I'm in a sort of chicken and egg situation, I can afford to race or I can afford CSS and a couple of trackdays, I cannot afford to do all that so I'll stick with the racing for now.
Some road skills ARE transferable to the track and vice versa. Smoothness learnt on cold, wet, slippery winter roads can translate into faster laptimes in a wet race as much as confidence in the bike and your own abilities learnt on the track can help you concentrate less on those aspects of your riding and more on your surroundings on the road.
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 16:08
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by domski
Look, I've no doubt that Andy has helped Tom - otherwise he wouldn't still be there would he.
My point was just that everyone was making out that CSS was responsible for Luthi being so fast.
My personal view, looking at the available evidence (I think I've investigated more than most - I'll assume that though) is that Tom was already fast before. Maybe Andy just helped him stop crashing - who knows? Nobody can answer that, not even Tom or Andy, coz we'd never know what would have happened had they not met.
[Edited on 24-5-2006 by domski]
Based upon some email and phone call disscussions with Andy, i can tell you that Andy can tell you in quite concise detail what was wrong with Luthi's riding and how he improved him, so much so that when Luthi rang Andy and told him he'd qualified badly, Andy could tell me why and what corner before Luthi even told him...
he was actually correct.
It was to do at that time with 'blind' corners and picking out observation markers for positioning and braking/turning.
So Tom Luthi would never have won a world title if he hadn't been coached by Andy?
God knows mate... i'm just trying to answer the questions viable.... not complete conjecture.
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 16:10
Originally posted by psychlist
Never done any track tuition let alone a CSS course but I can see distinct advantages to those that can learn to analyse their riding technique and timing.
How can you consistently brake later into a corner, turn in faster and get the power on earlier if you don't know where or when you were doing those things to start with? Granted there are other options out there but CSS (Andy Ibbott specifically) is extremely good at getting the message across to the point where you can improve yourself. .
i used Braking markers both before and after the course.
uncledunnie
24-May-2006, 16:12
Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by fil2
TP
How about you take me round cadwell for the day at the DSC track day....show me how it is done and then i can see if the course works..??...
im serious and genuine.?
Phil
well what do you think TP.....im faster than these wannabe's on this thread.. i have beaten them all......
If you can help me then deffo the CSS can help them...????
Phil
well, speaking on behalf of the polished turds here I would have to ask why would you want to pend £'s on improving your riding if your already winning consistantly?
Surely any training would have to be in the context of objectives, not just for the sake of?
weeksy2
24-May-2006, 16:15
He;'s winning in DD... bsically it's like being the champion Window Licker at school
:frog:
p.s i'm leaving for Milan now... you boys can figght the rest out amongst yourselves.... cya.
Originally posted by lizzie
You are missing the point, Phil. What you do on track starts with practising what you've been taught in the classroom. Following someone round isn't going to help without having been taught something before you get out there.
im not missing any point.... im more than happy to listen to TP on the drill required then go out and put it into practise under his supervsion...i think TP would be an excellent coach he is able to explain and get his point across...its not TP im questioning its wether the CSS will make me faster ..cos thats what i want to be..
:)
psychlist
24-May-2006, 16:47
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by psychlist
Never done any track tuition let alone a CSS course but I can see distinct advantages to those that can learn to analyse their riding technique and timing.
How can you consistently brake later into a corner, turn in faster and get the power on earlier if you don't know where or when you were doing those things to start with? Granted there are other options out there but CSS (Andy Ibbott specifically) is extremely good at getting the message across to the point where you can improve yourself. .
i used Braking markers both before and after the course.
I don't mean to sound patronising Steve but good for you, I think you're very lucky to have either a built in skill that enables you to pick out those points or you've been lucky enough to have someone show you, but without "someone" to show me how to work these things out I'm just gonna have to continue "guessing", I'm no racing god like young Fil but I manage to hold my own (most of the time!) and I am concentrating so much on where everyone else is and whether I'm closing on them or dropping back that I don't "think" about what I'm doing, when or where I'm doing it on track. I need someone to show me these things so I, personally, feel that I'd gain tremendously from doing a CSS (or any type of race) school.
Dominic's question was what did we all feel we'd get/got out of CSS. I would learn a hell of a lot and it would only be the beginning....;)
Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by lizzie
You are missing the point, Phil. What you do on track starts with practising what you've been taught in the classroom. Following someone round isn't going to help without having been taught something before you get out there.
im not missing any point.... im more than happy to listen to TP on the drill required then go out and put it into practise under his supervsion...i think TP would be an excellent coach he is able to explain and get his point across...its not TP im questioning its wether the CSS will make me faster ..cos thats what i want to be..
:)
I consider you a mate, so please don't take this the wrong way ...
Phil, you and I have had conversations in the past about the school and the theory. Based on those chats I would say that you have a firm belief that the school is an expensive waste of time and couldn't teach you anything. You've been extremely sceptical. You of all people, drawing from your martial arts experience, know that a student with a closed mind or preconceived notions is not going to learn as much as the 'sponge', or even learn anything at all! I haven't had a chat to you about it for a while so I don't know if you're view has changed or not.
The CSS can help you, it's just a matter of if you'll let it :D
If you're absolutely genuine, I'm more than happy to help.
ricco749s
24-May-2006, 17:00
Distinct whiff of heavy negativity entwined in this lot. So, something positive...
Did Levels 1 & 2 a few years ago at Brands and for me, it was one of the most enlightening thing I've ever done on a bike. Andy Ibbot's communication skills are exceptional and I concluded that there was something positive in there for everybody, from successful racer down to novice road rider.
The only requirement....an open mind and an acceptance that there is always more to learn, otherwise a waste of time and an even bigger waste of money.
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by lizzie
You are missing the point, Phil. What you do on track starts with practising what you've been taught in the classroom. Following someone round isn't going to help without having been taught something before you get out there.
im not missing any point.... im more than happy to listen to TP on the drill required then go out and put it into practise under his supervsion...i think TP would be an excellent coach he is able to explain and get his point across...its not TP im questioning its wether the CSS will make me faster ..cos thats what i want to be..
:)
I consider you a mate, so please don't take this the wrong way ...
Phil, you and I have had conversations in the past about the school and the theory. Based on those chats I would say that you have a firm belief that the school is an expensive waste of time and couldn't teach you anything. You've been extremely sceptical. You of all people, drawing from your martial arts experience, know that a student with a closed mind or preconceived notions is not going to learn as much as the 'sponge', or even learn anything at all! I haven't had a chat to you about it for a while so I don't know if you're view has changed or not.
The CSS can help you, it's just a matter of if you'll let it :D
If you're absolutely genuine, I'm more than happy to help.
yes i am genuine TP.............i have said that..................
:)
Originally posted by psychlist
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by psychlist
Never done any track tuition let alone a CSS course but I can see distinct advantages to those that can learn to analyse their riding technique and timing.
How can you consistently brake later into a corner, turn in faster and get the power on earlier if you don't know where or when you were doing those things to start with? Granted there are other options out there but CSS (Andy Ibbott specifically) is extremely good at getting the message across to the point where you can improve yourself. .
i used Braking markers both before and after the course.
I don't mean to sound patronising Steve but good for you, I think you're very lucky to have either a built in skill that enables you to pick out those points or you've been lucky enough to have someone show you, but without "someone" to show me how to work these things out I'm just gonna have to continue "guessing", I'm no racing god like young Fil but I manage to hold my own (most of the time!) and I am concentrating so much on where everyone else is and whether I'm closing on them or dropping back that I don't "think" about what I'm doing, when or where I'm doing it on track. I need someone to show me these things so I, personally, feel that I'd gain tremendously from doing a CSS (or any type of race) school.
Dominic's question was what did we all feel we'd get/got out of CSS. I would learn a hell of a lot and it would only be the beginning....;)
Paul quit it m8......im no riding god or young.............:)
Originally posted by fil2
yes i am genuine TP.............i have said that..................
:)
Ok, see you at Cadwell :D
Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by fil2
yes i am genuine TP.............i have said that..................
:)
Ok, see you at Cadwell :D
:D:D:D............
i will be on the 620 TP...to try and get to grips with it.......
thanks M8
Phil
Well, all this has been very amusing (as usual :P ) but it doenst help those like dominic or me who have been thinking about css.
The facts and the twist books are incontravertable (sorry, just trying to wind domski up) - code's approach is very good.
I'm going through the books (slowly - cos i'm an old git) and there are just sooooooooo many things that are put sooooooooo well, that it is simply a fantastic experience thinking about how to change the habits you pick up without knowing it.
But I want to ride these modern things faster, and I know I need help (no, not psychiatric - that all failed)
Personally, I want a deal to do more than the start-at-the-beginning schedule they advertise. I would happily pay more if I knew I was going to get better value, but 350/day probably means that I will have to pay 1050 before I get the meat of what I want.
(Is that more where you were going dominic ???)
[repeat previous rant]
And remember that I dont want to learn how to race (fil2 you're already good enough to race in any series you want !) _I_ 'just' want to go faster !
All you idiots who started dd-racing to learn how to race are already faster than me anyway !
[/repeat previous rant]
ps
I've just entered 12 races in one (vintage) race weekend :burn:
bradders
24-May-2006, 23:45
Originally posted by psychlist
Originally posted by weeksy2
Originally posted by psychlist
Never done any track tuition let alone a CSS course but I can see distinct advantages to those that can learn to analyse their riding technique and timing.
How can you consistently brake later into a corner, turn in faster and get the power on earlier if you don't know where or when you were doing those things to start with? Granted there are other options out there but CSS (Andy Ibbott specifically) is extremely good at getting the message across to the point where you can improve yourself. .
i used Braking markers both before and after the course.
I don't mean to sound patronising Steve but good for you, I think you're very lucky to have either a built in skill that enables you to pick out those points or you've been lucky enough to have someone show you, but without "someone" to show me how to work these things out I'm just gonna have to continue "guessing", I'm no racing god like young Fil but I manage to hold my own (most of the time!) and I am concentrating so much on where everyone else is and whether I'm closing on them or dropping back that I don't "think" about what I'm doing, when or where I'm doing it on track. I need someone to show me these things so I, personally, feel that I'd gain tremendously from doing a CSS (or any type of race) school.
Dominic's question was what did we all feel we'd get/got out of CSS. I would learn a hell of a lot and it would only be the beginning....;)
Paul - not sure you would. Like me, you are not the most mobile and leaping around on the bike seems a pre-requisite!
I think I would learn as much from someone like Kev as a proper school...the rest I can learn from a book.
electricsheep
25-May-2006, 00:08
Originally posted by bradders
Paul - not sure you would. Like me, you are not the most mobile and leaping around on the bike seems a pre-requisite!
I think I would learn as much from someone like Kev as a proper school...the rest I can learn from a book.
Sorry but got to disagree, leaping about on the bike has not been a part of any CSS class that I have been on
bradders
25-May-2006, 00:41
what about body positioning? Looking at TP and others who have attended, great style but I and others arent built for style ;)
for me, it seems a lot of dosh to learn brake markers, looking thru the corner etc when I can learn that from a book or following the likes of skids or psychlist on the road/track
like most things, practising the right drills will help - and unless you do loads of track time events after CSS tuition I dont see how you will stop going back to bad habits...you are certainly NOT going to break them in a couple of days spread out over a few months
ericthered40
25-May-2006, 01:30
I need some training
Potty training :D
I'm just happy to be out there having a go though.
Suppose I should be taking it more seriously really but I'm having to much fun to let it get serious and spoil it for me.
Thing with improving at bike racing/riding compared to other sports is fear and pain. You can only go as fast as your own fear will let you. when you go to fast you get pain. Bit different to golf or tennis.
Played golf for years then went to a coach and after three months was playing a different game entirely.
Badminton weired or what.
OMHO but coaching in any sport is essential if you want to move forward breakdown your own barriers and succeed.
This coaching has to be a long term program to work effectively. I am convinced that anyone who did a full coarse with CSS would be a faster rider as a result which is the idea, coaching works for everyone. I'm sure someone will tell me otherwise but if so why has every top level sports man or woman got one?
Not only one but several. physiological, dietician, fitness or fatness, riding?
sod it I think I might go and do lodes of it and **** the lot of yu :lol:
[Edited on 25-5-2006 by ericthered40]
Paul James
25-May-2006, 08:43
[i]
In 2004 he had a string of crashes and injuries - that's why he only managed 25th overall.
At which point did CSS make him fast???
Did they make him fast or did their assistance in some way help him to stay on the bike by changes (possibly only minor) in technique ?
I seem to recall an old adage "you have to finish to win" or "to come first you first have to finish"
Originally posted by Paul James
[i]
In 2004 he had a string of crashes and injuries - that's why he only managed 25th overall.
At which point did CSS make him fast???
Did they make him fast or did their assistance in some way help him to stay on the bike by changes (possibly only minor) in technique ?
I seem to recall an old adage "you have to finish to win" or "to come first you first have to finish"
Fair point Paul, but I later found out that this 2004 season that Luthi was such a crasher - he actually didn't even compete at the first 7 GP's due to pre-season injury - so not like he fell off 7 times, he wasn't even there!
Then the last 8 GP's that he did do - he finished every race!! Most of them in the top 10.
Harv748
25-May-2006, 12:17
For what its worth from a 'non-competitive, non-racing, road and TD riding, average Joe' I have completed levels 1 and 2 and found them very good.
I view the cost of the course as part of my never ending search for biking nervana...i.e. being able to ride at speed, in control...and safely. Whether that be on the road or on track at a TD...the same rules apply, and have certainly helped me in becoming more confident in the corner and on the throttle...and therefore ultimately, safer. Money well spent in my eyes.
The point seems to be if the course is worth attending for everyone...and the answer is clearly no. That applies all through the various levels, some beginners will find it of beifit others won't. The same applies to the best in the world...some will find it of use, others won't. Thats life.
I do find it funny though that some peeps appear to think that they are genuinely quick and that they can only be 'made' faster by watching or being taught by someone quicker than themselves. You only have to look at the sporting world in general to see that that is in fact almost never the case...with managers/coaches etc. generally being people whom fully understand the underlying factors that make someone successful in their chosen sport, not their history, not their speed/strength/balls or how may medals they have won in the past.
[Edited on 25-5-2006 by Harv748]
[Edited on 25-5-2006 by Harv748]
Oooooh dear, I can feel an essay coming on.
I've spent the last 15 years of my professional life involved in workforce development and performance improvement. I've literally 'written the book' for my company (a major international corporate) on instructional design and performance methodologies through being the main author and architect of the company's 'Learning and Performance Solutions Lifecycle' - A web page designed as an electronic performance support system that is now used by all of our instructional developers and performance consultants. I've taught hundreds of people how to put high quality instructional packages together. I have presented at intenational performance improvement conferences and I have co-taught instructional design courses with internationally recognised 'gurus' in this field such as Dr Harold Stolovitch.
I'm not saying this to be boastful, just to state my claim that I know a bit more than most people about what it takes to put an instructional package together, what skills are required of a coach and what skills are required as a 'subject matter expert'.
Because we've all been taught something, by somebody, at sometime in our lives and because we, in turn, have almost certainly taught other people (even if it's teaching your toddler how to hold a knife and fork), one of the issues that I constantly deal with is that everybody thinks they know how to teach and what makes for good instruction.
The truth is that people very rarely know how to put good instruction together and the sad truth is that people who are real experts at something very rarely know how to teach it. They will use wooly words such as 'when I've taught them these facts people will understand how to....'.
There is so much wrong in that simple sentence. For a start, it's focused upon the teacher, not the learner, it assumes that the facts they've assembled are valid and presented in the correct order and there is an assumption that different people will all arrive at the same level of understanding given the same information. This is frankly a nonsense.
What a good instruction package will do is to produce reliable results, consistently, for every person that attends. It can only do this by exhaustive analysis of the tasks involved and the context in which those tasks need to be performed. It can only do this by being learner focused and ensuring that learners can actually DO the things that the instruction set out to accomplish and it can only check that the learner can actually DO those things by having specific 'Student Performance Objectives' and learning checks that the course is written around.
I can't emphasise enough that without doing the analysis and breaking the whole thing down task by task into an ordered heirachy task analysis and ensuring that learners can actually DO the things that the course is trying to build on by ensuring that the whole course is built around 'Student Performance Objectives' or SPO. A good SPO contains three important things - the conditions under which a student is expected to perform, the performance that they are expected to demonstrate (which is always stated in terms of a verb - a doing word) and the criterion or performance standard they are required to reach to demonstrate that they can indeed DO what is required.
A suitable SPO for the first drill in CSS level 1 might be "Riding a motorcyle around a series of different corners, in one gear and without using their brakes (the condition), the student will demonstrate (performance verb) to the instructor that they can control their entry speed correctly into 100% (criterion) of the corners that they take"
That seems fairly simple doesn't it? Well, the sad truth is that very, very, very few people take the time and trouble to go into the construction of instructional content to this level of analytical detail. Most people dive straight into demonstration by a subject matter expert (as in the 'follow an instructor that the learner thinks is better than they are school). This has it's attractions, both to the school and the learner. It's **** easy for the school to do because they invest no time at all in constructing any meaningful instruction and the learner gets fooled into thinking that they're learning.
I am really sorry to tell you guys that if you honestly think that you're learning something from simply trying to follow a faster rider you are deluding yourselves. I've got so much heavyweight research into Human Performance at every level to back this statement up that I could take all week justifying this statement, but think on this...
By definition you are less able than the faster rider so you may just about be able to follow his lines and you may also develop a sense of false confidence that if he can go round at that speed, so can you. But! Do you know from your position behind him precisely when he brakes? How hard does he brake? How does he modulate his braking? When exactly does he initiate the turn? How quickly does he counteersteer? How much force does he use on the bars? Where is he putting his weight? Which muscle groups is he using to do that and to hold onto the bike? How quickly is he getting on the gas? How is he balancing the amount of throttle he can use with the grip he's got available? When is he picking the bike up? Is he tense or relaxed? How is he reacting to the bike moving around beneath him? Where is he looking (can you see where his eyeballs are pointing from behind him?) What information is he taking in from what he sees? the list goes on... Can you tell all that from your position a few bike lengths back? I couldn't and neither can you...end of story.
Even if you had some kind of uncanny telepathic telemetry, how would you (as the less experienced rider) know whether the things your mentor was doing were right or wrong? What aspects of his style are helping him go fast and what aspects are holding him up? Which bits should you copy and which bits should you discard? Do you know? Of course you don't. If you really, really believe that you can learn anything this way then be my guest
The good news for CSS fans is that having done levels 1 through to 3, I can tell you that by accident or good design the Code method has got nearer than most to constructing valid course content. Code has done a truly excellent job of analysing the physics of what makes a motorcycle turn and (since the laws of physics are an imutable constant) he's also done an extremely thorough task analysis of what a rider needs to do to make the best of those laws. He's also done a thorough task analysis of the psychology at work and the visual skills required to ride with more confidence and more consistency. All of this builds into being able to ride smoother and faster.
The CSS methods are not perfect from an instructional point of view. The bits that are lacking are a true adherence to those 'Student Performance Objectives' that I was talking about (they only typically set out the conditions and what you need to demonstrate - the criteria are missing), the coaches debrief can be somewhat cursory so doesn't really qualify as a learning check. Most of all the CSS methods lack any real 'learner analysis'. One of the key things that any instructional designer has to know is what their student knows already, what they are doing right and what they're doing wrong. Of course, how could they? Learners at CSS can go from people who've just started to ride through to Thomas Luthi and Leon Camier how can one size course fit all.
The CSS answer of course is to start everyone from scratch with the attendant frustration for more experienced riders.
In the professional world, we accomplish this with a simple pre-test to ascertain the starting point for instruction - maybe the CSS could consider the same thing.
I am of course available for consultancy on how to perfect instructional content ;)
Oh, and Fil...Why do so many good karate instructors spend hours going over basic building blocks like Oi Zuki and Age Uki with higher grades, and why are you always asked to do Taikyoku Shodan (the very first Kata you learn) at every grading?
Paul James
25-May-2006, 13:18
Originally posted by domski
Originally posted by Paul James
[i]
In 2004 he had a string of crashes and injuries - that's why he only managed 25th overall.
At which point did CSS make him fast???
Did they make him fast or did their assistance in some way help him to stay on the bike by changes (possibly only minor) in technique ?
I seem to recall an old adage "you have to finish to win" or "to come first you first have to finish"
Fair point Paul, but I later found out that this 2004 season that Luthi was such a crasher - he actually didn't even compete at the first 7 GP's due to pre-season injury - so not like he fell off 7 times, he wasn't even there!
Then the last 8 GP's that he did do - he finished every race!! Most of them in the top 10.
It wasn't a dig at you just a general comment, I guess it's like anything in life it depends on how you approach it and your attitude towards learning.
It won't work for everybody and it won't necessarily result in mind blowing revelations on how to ride better but I doubt that many could honestly say that nothing on the courses would/could help their riding ?
As I said, just a general comment, not aimed at anyone.
I'd like to do the course but it is pretty full up most of the time, I'd like to unlearn the sidecar lines and get a lot better at solo riding.
Before I get deluged with responses saying "yes you fat old git you sure need to" I ALREADY KNOW THAT :D:D
Paul James
25-May-2006, 13:25
Please don't assume that my post was in any way worded as having read the one from Julian, we must have been writing them at the same time and his got there first. No intention to refer to anything you said Julian.
Originally posted by Jools
Oh, and Fil...Why do so many good karate instructors spend hours going over basic building blocks like Oi Zuki and Age Uki with higher grades, and why are you always asked to do Taikyoku Shodan (the very first Kata you learn) at every grading?
All the karate instructors i have had were way better than me and still actually practised what they preached....not just stood up front of the class spouting commands on techniques they cant do themselves........unlike some schools where the new blackbelt has started to teach...!! what does he know.? what can he teach other blackbelts...experience counts for alot in karate and BLACK BELTS are now imho given away to almost anyone.
Phil
ps......this comment is NOT aimed at anyone .... jools pls dont use me in your argument.
[Edited on 25-5-2006 by fil2]
Dominic Clegg
25-May-2006, 15:00
wow theres been a lot of things been said and i didnt think i was going to kick up this much resonse. i real like to do it and i believe id get a lot out of it. but due to my student buget doesnt look likely at the moment.
im real missing riding the bike and cant wait to get to cc
thank you for your response very interesting (iv been on amazon and got mr codes book ill read that instead)
Originally posted by Dominic Clegg
wow theres been a lot of things been said and i didnt think i was going to kick up this much resonse. i real like to do it and i believe id get a lot out of it. but due to my student buget doesnt look likely at the moment.
im real missing riding the bike and cant wait to get to cc
thank you for your response very interesting (iv been on amazon and got mr codes book ill read that instead)
Thanks for ringing me this morning mate, hopefully you got something out of it. The books are a good place to start, but buy A Twist of the Wrist 2 first - and read it before you read TOTW 1. All the level 1 drills are covered in book 2 - trust me, I've read it enough times now ...
Originally posted by fil2
ps......this comment is NOT aimed at anyone .... jools pls dont use me in your argument.
[Edited on 25-5-2006 by fil2]
You've taken that the wrong way. I'm not trying to use you in any arguement, I can argue my point effectively for myself. I apologise if you've taken offence.
Without aiming this at anyone I will explain my thinking.
My point was that (even in my limited experience) the higher grades, however experienced, are quite prepared to go over their own basic techniques time and time and time again in their own training. I've also watched 4th and 5th Dan grades devoting an hour or more to practising a single 'lower grade' kata with the Sensei pointing out tiny, almost imperceptible, errors in technique. My only point was that, in the martial arts context, everybody (regardless of experience or grade) seems more than willing to practise over and over again the techniques they first learned years ago, nobody seems to take the 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt, can't teach me anything about that' attitude.
The people I've spoken to about this often tell me that going back to basics is one of the the most effective lessons they do. Their mindset seems to be 'however often I've done this, I know I'm not perfect and I can improve if someone with the right coaching credentials points out how I could do this better'.
Am I wrong? If I am I'll shut up
In a nutshell, my attitude would be never to believe that I'm so far up myself or be too proud to go back to the most basic of basics. Who knows, somebody may be able to spot a flaw in one of my basic techniques that I may have been incorrectly building everything else on.
In another context, I've been playing bass since I was 15. Recently I was teaching some scales to somebody that had been playing a month. As they showed me how they played a scale, they showed me a method of fingering that they had worked out for themselves. I tried it and it immediately felt more natural than the fingering I've used for the last 20 odd years, I've incorporated it into my own playing and it's unlocked new possibilities.
My point is that, for myself, I hope that I'm always willing to learn something from anybody whether they are the worlds foremost expert or a raw beginner
Can they know how to do it better if they cant do it themselves.?......without actually going through it how can you know the subtle changes in the Kate for example...reading it in a book >?...
i can only relay my expereinces and in karate the best people i have been trained by are people who have been through the mill and still continue to train and strive for improvement.....
its not about training basics as i agree the basics are fundamental to a strong kareteka...the discussion is.....can someone who has ltd " real " life experience teach you actually how to get better unless they have been through it time and time again..i suggest not......
for example....can a new black belt explain how and where a kizamazuki power is generated from..>?......some sure but most no......reason they dont have the time in the game to teach yet........maybe to complete beginners but not his peers......................
sure we can all learn something from someone ( im not that arrogant to beleive im that good jools ) but thats not the point the point is on-going skill improvement and this imho can only be acheived by some-one that CAN teach and has the skill set gained through expereince and can relay the subltes and fundamental parts to a technique
regards
Phil
Originally posted by fil2
its not about training basics as i agree the basics are fundamental to a strong kareteka...the discussion is.....can someone who has ltd " real " life experience teach you actually how to get better unless they have been through it time and time again..i suggest not......
sure we can all learn something from someone ( im not that arrogant to beleive im that good jools ) but thats not the point the point is on-going skill improvement and this imho can only be acheived by some-one that CAN teach and has the skill set gained through expereince and can relay the subltes and fundamental parts to a technique
regards
Phil
:eureka:
Absolutely bang on and this is the point I have been making all along.
couchcommando
25-May-2006, 17:31
If we are saying that to teach you have to be of a certain high standard how does that explain sports coaches that aren't of the high standard of their chosen sport and have never competed at high level ?
I know what you are saying and I do partially agree but I also see top level sportsmen taking instruction from people who have never been at the top of that sport ?
Chris Wood
25-May-2006, 17:44
A few examples from the sports world, where the coach achieved less than the coachee in the chosen feild of expertise.
Phil Jackson - Micheal Jordan
Butch Harmon - Tiger Woods
Clive Woodward - World Cup Rugby
Jeremy Burgess - Rossi / Doohan
Tony Roach - Pete Sampras
Arsene Wegner - Arsenal
Jose Morino - Porto / Chelsea
Keith Code - ........
?????????????????
Don't get me started, I will use the personal library if pushed....
I've lost the will to live with this thread...no offence to TP but, I'll use him as an example cos he's a CSS coach.... he's been racing barely a year, just out of his novice jacket and he's gonna teach me to go faster? It's sounds arrogant but, it's not meant that way cos I'm well past by best-by-date but, I've got 15 yrs racing experience, a national licence, an international permit entitlement and a string of race trophies. :puzzled:
What is he gonna teach me?
Originally posted by twpd
What is he gonna teach me?
I'm not going to be able to teach you anything.
:)
Originally posted by Jools
...they showed me a method of fingering that they had worked out for themselves. I tried it and it immediately felt more natural than the fingering I've used for the last 20 odd years.
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much information :o
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::P;)
You said you could.
I'm putting you on the spot and asking what you can teach me. I've done it several times and I've yet to hear the answer.
You can't expect me to accept in blind faith a statement that says you can make me faster. You need to back it up. It's a bit like some bloke walking in off the street and saying "I can make your network faster, more reliable and cheaper to run". You will want to know how.
Being a teacher implies that you have something to teach the student - in turn that implies that you have more knowledge and experience unless you have somehow pre-assessed the student's needs/skills/experience. As we know, this doesn't happen with CSS. Everybody no matter how good or experience goes through the same route.
Would you say the same if I was Matt Bond or Gregorio?
Anyway...this is my final post on the matter. I'm open to being proved wrong - I genuinely am but, the risk is yours. After all the CSS is trying to sell a product - if it wants me to buy then it should convince me that it's worthwhile.
Just a quick responce. What make Rossi greater than Biaggi?
Biaggi thought he was the best and didn't need to change anything. He would always blame his machine.
Rossi on the other hand was always prepared to learn. He also knew he was the best.
Originally posted by twpd
You said you could.
I'm putting you on the spot and asking what you can teach me. I've done it several times and I've yet to hear the answer.
You can't expect me to accept in blind faith a statement that says you can make me faster. You need to back it up. It's a bit like some bloke walking in off the street and saying "I can make your network faster, more reliable and cheaper to run". You will want to know how.
Being a teacher implies that you have something to teach the student - in turn that implies that you have more knowledge and experience unless you have somehow pre-assessed the student's needs/skills/experience. As we know, this doesn't happen with CSS. Everybody no matter how good or experience goes through the same route.
Would you say the same if I was Matt Bond or Gregorio?
Anyway...this is my final post on the matter. I'm open to being proved wrong - I genuinely am but, the risk is yours. After all the CSS is trying to sell a product - if it wants me to buy then it should convince me that it's worthwhile.
Ok, I'm being caught out here for a flippant comment I made to highlight the fact that unless you've got an open mind are willing to learn I won't be able to teach you anything.
You already think you can't learn anything from me - if you went to the school Johnny would match your experience with one of the coaches who has a lot of racing experience and away you go.
We both know you're not going to attend the school so I'm not sure what value there is in debating it.
u2u me if you want.
dickieducati
25-May-2006, 20:06
haven't really got involved in this but to honest if you dont think the CSS can do anything for you dont go. if you think they can and want to give it a go. try it. i know plenty of people swear by it and would go back again and again. others have been and dont like it (although very few to be fair) best thing is surely to give it a try and see?
Originally posted by dickieducati
haven't really got involved in this but to honest if you dont think the CSS can do anything for you dont go. if you think they can and want to give it a go. try it. i know plenty of people swear by it and would go back again and again. others have been and dont like it (although very few to be fair) best thing is surely to give it a try and see?
Trust you to post something that makes so much sense!!!
Where the hell were you yesterday?
:lol: ;)
Redruth
25-May-2006, 20:42
Have to agree with Dickie. It isn't a quick fix and there are no miracle answers, as far as I can see. I did level one then tried all season to put it into practice but felt much slower because I had so much more to think about. My best day's riding last year was in October at Brands when I stopped thinking about all the CSS stuff and just rode the bike. Jools made a good point about the instruction. I didn't get as much as I'd hoped in feedback from my instructor but I got a lot, almost too much, from the classroom stuff that Andy Ibbott did.
I'm not planning to do any more levels until I've mastered all the things I learnt in level 1, because it's too expensive to do until I feel I really need to.
i found the css a help,then again in jerez i had a day instruction with antinio maeso which was 90 euros. no plans for any more levels at the mo
Fastfasulli
25-May-2006, 21:26
Just stumbled on this thread by accident....and then noticed who started it....a student training to be a chemist...I wonder how many marks he'd get for this little experiment:P:lol:
Originally posted by Chris Wood
A few examples from the sports world, where the coach achieved less than the coachee in the chosen feild of expertise.
Phil Jackson - Micheal Jordan
Butch Harmon - Tiger Woods
Clive Woodward - World Cup Rugby
Jeremy Burgess - Rossi / Doohan
Tony Roach - Pete Sampras
Arsene Wegner - Arsenal
Jose Morino - Porto / Chelsea
Keith Code - ........
?????????????????
Don't get me started, I will use the personal library if pushed....
Er Clive Woodward...England international, British lion................:D
Originally posted by andyb
Originally posted by Chris Wood
A few examples from the sports world, where the coach achieved less than the coachee in the chosen feild of expertise.
Phil Jackson - Micheal Jordan
Butch Harmon - Tiger Woods
Clive Woodward - World Cup Rugby
Jeremy Burgess - Rossi / Doohan
Tony Roach - Pete Sampras
Arsene Wegner - Arsenal
Jose Morino - Porto / Chelsea
Keith Code - ........
?????????????????
Don't get me started, I will use the personal library if pushed....
Er Clive Woodward...England international, British lion................:D
...and Jerry Burgess is an Australian, so he don't count either!! :P
:lol:
Originally posted by andyb
Originally posted by Chris Wood
A few examples from the sports world, where the coach achieved less than the coachee in the chosen feild of expertise.
Phil Jackson - Micheal Jordan
Butch Harmon - Tiger Woods
Clive Woodward - World Cup Rugby
Jeremy Burgess - Rossi / Doohan
Tony Roach - Pete Sampras
Arsene Wegner - Arsenal
Jose Morino - Porto / Chelsea
Keith Code - ........
?????????????????
Don't get me started, I will use the personal library if pushed....
Er Clive Woodward...England international, British lion................:D
Yes true, but he never lifted the world cup as a player so you could argue that he achieved more as a coach than he did as a player.
mjbayley
25-May-2006, 21:53
:lol:
I'm so glad there are so many experts here!
( X = The unknown quantity , Spurt = A drip under pressure )
allthegearnoidea
25-May-2006, 23:38
I did Level 1 and 2 of CSS in April at Silverstone this year. I learnt a great deal and my riding is still improving from repeated application of the drills I was taught.
I felt they were excellent value and if anything CSS tried to pack a little too much into the day. Everyone from Andy Ibbott down were very committed to everyone getting the best from their experience.
All the instructors I had were good teachers and were able to get me to think about the issues with my riding. Their experience levels clearly varied but they were all enthusiatic, communicative and determined to make sure I was convinced on the points they were making.
Each lesson/drill was related back to chapters in the book and a brief instruction manual such that I have been able to think and read around the lessons subsequently.
Overall my riding feels faster,safer,smoother and I feel more in charge of the bike.
At a philosophical level a young teacher can certainly be a good teacher. A lack of experience does not preclude the formation of an articuilate and effective teacher. However, humility is undoubtedly a prerequisite for learning and if your attitude going into the course is not humble I suspect you won't get your full value for money.
Attendees varied from track rookies like me to committed and clearly very talented sponsored racers. Everone I spoke to seemed to have learnt a great deal form the days.
If you want to know anything else please email me your mobile number and I will give you a call.
I'm doing level 3 and 4 in July at Rockingham so maybe I could see you there.
Kind Regards
Dave
Paul James
26-May-2006, 09:24
Originally posted by twpd
You said you could.
I'm putting you on the spot and asking what you can teach me. I've done it several times and I've yet to hear the answer.
You can't expect me to accept in blind faith a statement that says you can make me faster. You need to back it up. It's a bit like some bloke walking in off the street and saying "I can make your network faster, more reliable and cheaper to run". You will want to know how.
Being a teacher implies that you have something to teach the student - in turn that implies that you have more knowledge and experience unless you have somehow pre-assessed the student's needs/skills/experience. As we know, this doesn't happen with CSS. Everybody no matter how good or experience goes through the same route.
Would you say the same if I was Matt Bond or Gregorio?
Anyway...this is my final post on the matter. I'm open to being proved wrong - I genuinely am but, the risk is yours. After all the CSS is trying to sell a product - if it wants me to buy then it should convince me that it's worthwhile.
Got to say that the responses you've been getting are leading me to doubt whether I'll try CSS now to be honest.
Having read the book and watched a very old video I can see the merit of the techniques but I'm not sure how well it would necessarily be put across in practice.
To learn the skills is one thing but to teach them to others in a meaningful way takes a whole different set of skills and aptitudes/attitudes ?
I believe that David Cook is/was one of the instructors, if you could book him for the day it would be a guarantee of value for money !!! He has a calm analytical manner and is very able to convey the information gained from observing to the listener, 24 carat bloke all round.
[Edited on 26-5-2006 by Paul James]
blimey ... what a thread .. I have done all 4 levels, am I quicker, yes, am I quick ?? in the great scheme of things ... no ... am I safer, more confident and more aware of the effects of my inputs to the bike and its reaction, both negatively and positively? yes, do I enjoy track time more ??? definately, for me CSS was about achieving all of the above, completing trackdays having gone quicker than before but in a far more controlled manner, no rushes of blood, no teddy bear braking, no panic .. for me that makes it worth every penny TO ME ..... simply because I aligned my goals with the coaching, made it a challenge and wanted to learn ..... take from this post what you will ...
Dibs
This has been one of the all-time most entertaining threads I've read :lol:
We've got flippant, arrogant, humble (and australian :o ) happy, disgruntled, gagging-to-learn, too-old-to-learn, too-experienced-to-learn, hear-no-evil, see-no-evil ... I could go on for hours, but then I'd forget what I was talking about in the first place :lol:
Personally, I just want to go faster, which means understanding more about what I'm really doing, not what I think I'm doing, and I know that means I need an instructor/coach who knows how to watch properly, and I think that is what code is really focussed on. I know I can already race, thats not the thing at all - its what dibble is getting at - the challenge is - whatever your 'level' to understand how to go faster, and you just can't do that by all by yourself.
If only it wasnt so expensive for level 1, I'd have done it already.
Hmmm ... maybe I'm judging what/how-little I'd get out of level 1 too harshly ?
Any comments ?
(please)
chicken
26-May-2006, 22:10
Originally posted by phil_h
If only it wasnt so expensive for level 1, I'd have done it already.
Said the man with 9 bikes and counting :lol:
Originally posted by phil_h
Hmmm ... maybe I'm judging what/how-little I'd get out of level 1 too harshly ?
Any comments ?
(please)
I like trackdays because of the corners, not the straights. CSS helped me to go around corners better, which makes me enjoy them more. A by-product is that I go round them faster because I am doing it better.
My recollections of CSS are that in the introduction its made clear it is not a race school. The aim is to improve the many and various skills you need to go round a corner safely and fast. Equally applicable to Road or track IMHO.
Sure its a good bit more than the price of a track day but driving "lessons" are £20 plus an hour now?
IMHO to get anything out of any course you need to go with an open mind, you might be of the opinion that you have learn't nothing but I'd be a bit wary of anyone who says they have nothing to learn. Sure some might see starting at the lowest level a bit beneath them but again in my opinion one of the aims is to get you to think about and analyse a little about what you are doing on the bike and how it reacts to inputs.
Ray.
Andy Ibbott
09-Jun-2006, 13:01
Where do I start?
First of all I must apologise for not jumping in sooner but time is a rare commodity for me at the moment and I wanted to read everything that was said.
For me there are 3 points here:
Road/track skills
Coaching abilities
Thomas Luthi
Road/Track skills
At CSS we teach cornering skills, we are very purist on this. For a road rider, it’s the area of greatest enjoyment and if we can help a rider do it with more confidence he will get more enjoyment from his riding.
The same applies to a Track dayer; it's the corners that create the challenges and fun.
And the racers, it’s where the lap times come down, not the straights.
So, if you want to improve your cornering for whatever reason/goal/gain this is our specialised subject - at all levels.
Coaching abilities
I feel that Johnny Haynes gave such a comprehensive answer to this (see bottom of page 5) and I have nothing more to add.
It was interesting that there were no comments, questions or response to this answer though...
Thomas Luthi
Yes he was already fast but there is a world of difference between top ten and top of the podium. In 125 this is normally 0.5 of a sec. Where could you find an extra 0.5 of a sec? Or 1 second or 10? If you are already at your limit then how do go faster?
Could he have won the Championship with out me? Could he have done it without Sepp his chief engineer? Or Honda? Or his Mental coach? Who knows...? Fact, the TEAM as a whole and a bit of luck helped him win the World title.
Did I make him faster? Yes. Did I teach him 'special' tricks? No. I'll give an example from the 2 day test in Brno I have just returned from.
In one corner he was late applying the throttle, which was affecting his time in that split.
Ok, that is what was happening. Now fil2 what would you do to help him go faster? What is the cause of the effect?
Sandro, his team mate has just spent the whole 2 days working on Throttle control. Did he find it below him? NO, frustrating maybe but in the end when we had a breakthrough he went faster.
I say this a lot but you can't change what you don't know. It is one of the facts of this life.
Let me know your thoughts, I'm around until Sunday night when we have Schools in Ireland.
All the best
Andy
Paul James
09-Jun-2006, 13:33
Thanks for your input Andy, realise how limited your spare time is.
Andy Ibbott
09-Jun-2006, 13:34
I hope it answers some of the questions and I hope it raises more which I'm glad to answer, although maybe not straight away!
.
In one corner he was late applying the throttle, which was affecting his time in that split.
Ok, that is what was happening. Now fil2 what would you do to help him go faster? What is the cause of the effect?
Andy
im hoping TP can show / tell me at cadwell track day...............
Phil..........
couchcommando
09-Jun-2006, 13:51
Nice to see the 'boss' answering our questions and commenting on our thoughts, I like to see that as it shows commitment to the customers.
I have had lengthy discussion with TP on CSS and he has made some valid comments.
The one thing I cannot understand is if you have a good technique then what is stopping you braking that 5m later, or cornering that 2mph faster or opening the throttle 1/2 sec earlier. I understand all the instructors know the techniques so what is stopping them reaching lap record speed on any bike they ride ?
Maybe this question isn't answerable and maybe we should concentrate on getting the perfect technique first but where does the ability to put the technique into practice come from and assuming all other things equal why are some people quicker than others ?
Anyone care to explain why Rossi doesn't appear to look thro a corner as we are led to believe this is a basic technique ?
Andy Ibbott
09-Jun-2006, 14:26
The question is answerable - Survival Reaction thresholds. We all have them and this is how we judge 'talent' in bike racing. Example, Shakey, very 'talented' rider because his SR level is so high. Mine has come down because I don't like riding on the edge anymore like I did when I raced. I still want to go faster each time I ride but not at 99%, but faster at a comfortable 90%, hence the reason I don't race anymore.
As for Rossi, he does look into the corner and out. Now his head position would lead you to believe otherwise...
And yes, I do know that as I have spent the last 3 months writing a book on MotoGP riding techniques and spoken to most of the riders at that level. VERY INTERESTING!
couchcommando
09-Jun-2006, 14:52
The question is answerable - Survival Reaction thresholds. We all have them and this is how we judge 'talent' in bike racing. Example, Shakey, very 'talented' rider because his SR level is so high. Mine has come down because I don't like riding on the edge anymore like I did when I raced. I still want to go faster each time I ride but not at 99%, but faster at a comfortable 90%, hence the reason I don't race anymore.
As for Rossi, he does look into the corner and out. Now his head position would lead you to believe otherwise...
And yes, I do know that as I have spent the last 3 months writing a book on MotoGP riding techniques and spoken to most of the riders at that level. VERY INTERESTING!
Can I have an evaluation copy ? If it's good I promise to tell everyone I know ;)
More interestingly did you or CSS learn anything from them ?
Well, I've made my mind up to try the CSS school.
I made my mind up this way ...
I've just come away from a day at brands gp, and for the first time at a td I spent all the time on one bike (my race 620) with the aim of 'just' trying to understand how I am riding the bike. It had a very interesting quality of having bends that I thought I knew and bends that I had only ever looked at ! A most excellent learning opportunity that I enjoyed immensely, and I even survived to attempts at murder by a 600-axe-tw*t !
1. As discussed with a couple of you - one thing I needed was simply time trying to ride it fast - mission accomplished, as I was the slowest bike (by far) in the fast group, but by the end of the day not around the corners (hooray)
2. I went with the mindset of looking to learn something - not looking for someone to tell me something - and was able to relax enough to start watching myself - at last on the 620 I was spending my $10 carefully, so i feel I can now move forward with it without tripping over too many of my bad habits - so mission accomplished with regard to being ready to learn where the next level begins.
So, the moral of this is that you not only have to want to be a student, but you must also practice being one in order to be ready to learn when the opportunity comes along. Many very accomplished people completely miss this point.
A black belt signifies that you have finished your novice phase, and should now be ready to learn in all situations. It does not mean you are a teacher or a coach.
Actually, you will see many top sports people watching/following others of their discipline to see if there are new any tricks they can steal. Its the ability to pass on the right tricks to the right people that makes the best coaches.
[/ranting-old-git]
As some of you know I spent Easter with Andy, Johnny and the guys and girls at Almeria on a 2 day camp. It wasn't cheap-especially for me since I dropped and then blew up my Gilera on the first day-but it was VERY worth it. If I learnt just one thing the hook turn was worth the time-everyone will take something different away which is their main benefit, the main thing is you WILL benefit. You just have to want to learn-and I have been riding bikes for over 40 years................
John
Andy Ibbott
09-Jun-2006, 20:41
Can I have an evaluation copy ? If it's good I promise to tell everyone I know ;)
More interestingly did you or CSS learn anything from them ?
A good question.
Did I learn anything? Yes, quite a bit and I was astounded how open they all were to the questions asked. For example, John Hopkins. John, how do you get the bike to turn? Answer "Hey man, I have no idea!"
What can be learnt from this? The guy ain't slow...
In the end I spoke with Hopkins, Hayden, Capirossi, Edwards, Ellison, Vermuelen, Nakano, Chaz Davies, Luthi (no surprise there!) and even got some thoughts from Rossi although I couldn't speak directly to him. :(
Evaluation copy? It's on the press week after next in time for the Brit GP when it goes on sale...
Chris 77
09-Jun-2006, 20:58
Sorry Fil,Dont think thats gonna happen. Sure TP may be able to give you a tow round but until you decide CSS is worthwhile and what we do is a good thing(i.e Do level 1) the tech is gonna remain unobtainable. Please dont expect TP to help you out just because he's a mate as it will cause him much grief from management.Rules is rules.
bradders
09-Jun-2006, 23:02
Please dont expect TP to help you out just because he's a mate as it will cause him much grief from management.Rules is rules.
youre joking, right?? From what I understand TP spent his hard eraned on becoming an instructor, why cabnt he share that with thise he chooses either in terms of 'favours retruned/swapped' or just coz he's a mate??
youre joking, right?? From what I understand TP spent his hard eraned on becoming an instructor, why cabnt he share that with thise he chooses either in terms of 'favours retruned/swapped' or just coz he's a mate??
What TP did in getting qualified and any costs he incurred are between him and the CSS, he will no doubt have Rules of Engagement with the school restricting how he distributes the knowledge he has gained, and don't for a secon think that the CSS have turned a profit in training him.
Its standard business practice as the IPR's of the training techniques belong to the school ...
I agree with Chris77 on this i'm afraid,
I've been thinking about this a lot today. I'd like to make it perfectly clear at this point that I had always fully intended on speaking to the school prior to the DSC track days at Cadwell, where I'm instructing, to determine exactly what the boundaries are between coaching as an employed professional riding coach on a school day for the paying public and volunteering to instruct on a club track day to help club members enjoy themselves. I sincerely hope that none of you think I was naive enough to think that I could just hand over the knowledge that a CSS paying student gets to a DSC club member attending a DSC track day. Clearly this is reserved for school attendee's or you completely hit the floor on the value proposition and the school goes down the toilet. Hardly the goal of any business - no matter how benevolent their objectives are. If the school can't afford to run no-one benefits.
The commercial relationship between me and the CSS deserves the same respect as any other employee/employer relationship. More importantly it is also bound by the same intellectual property rules (some of you may not be familiar with Dibble's reference to IPR's - Intellectual Property Rights). The technology that the CSS teach is intellectual property in just the same fashion as Microsoft don't just hand over the source code to their programs/operating systems for free as it is their business - their IP. It is a legally recognisable asset belonging to the organisation, NOT the individual (I hope this clarifies things Bradders). For example, I'm an IT Consultant in my other mundane life .... any technology design/project plan I do for my employer is usually covered by an agreement that allows my employer to retain the Intellectual Property rights to the work I've performed, or if they don't have that clause in there - silly them! Even to the extent that the 100+ page design documents that I spend an awful long time working on the minutia for are actually owned by my employer - not me. I could be held legally culpable for passing these on without consent.
However, and again for the record, I personally paid to do all four levels of the school training as a student long before there was any whiff of me being invited to trial as a coach and potentially join the school. Purely from that I would hope you can see that I value and believe in what the school teaches. Dibble is right in that the school absolutely does not profit from the training of their coaches - each party wears their own costs/risk. The ONLY reason I mention this is because I think it's an excellent indicator of why the CSS riding coaches work for the school - it's not for money! Every coach I've discussed this with so far coach because they like helping people and seeing them improve.
I like helping people. In Australia I used to teach IT at a TAFE college and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing my students change their lives and get more financial control. One of my students in particular stands out - he was a truck driver who only knew how to turn his PC on and check his mail when he joined my course. And by the way, for him to be able to pay the TAFE to do my course on his salary was a big commitment for him. Through my help, and his herculean effort, he was able to quit his job driving a truck and get a job in IT. He sent me a bunch of flowers when he got his first job! Bloody poof!
:D
Please don't gloss over my reference to how much effort he put in to achieve his goals.
I hope that clears things up a bit. I fully intend on giving the best value I can to anyone who asks for my help in any situation - let alone the upcoming DSC track days. I just hope that each individual who asks for my help recognises that I have responsibilities to others as well.
Have a good night, I'm off to bed :D
See y'all at Castle Combe later today hopefully - depending on what my sons want to do!
Laters.
Discover the art (www.superbikeschool.co.uk)
I'm finding it hard to hold my tongue here having resolved to say nothing more in this thread but.......
Since when did the techniques of riding fast become intelectual property of an individual or an organisation? A book or a video etc can have copyright (and I am sure that CSS training materials have this) but, the techniques of riding? What nonsense! You cannot equate riding technique to source code. You can attach copyright to source code (although that is debatable in some circles) but, you cannot copyright or apply the principles of intellectual property to riding fast. If you could can you imagine the sheer chaos it would cause? We'd have individuals and organisation copyrighting everything from potato peeling to learning how to adjust your chain!
Can you imagine TP asking anyone who is quicker than him how they go faster around a corner? "Sorry old boy, that's my i/p and you have to pay for that". Let's extend this further - if this line of thinking was to be followed further then one would have to assume that it would not be permissible for a student to relate the knowledge and techniques he/she learnt with CSS to a third party. Moving on from that again, it would be akin to a normal school of education applying the principles of i/p to Kirchoff's Law!
I would love to see that stand up in a court cos it wouldn't.
For sure there is a boundary where the undertaking certain types work in one's spare time away from the principle business of the employer becomes a conflict of interests wrt the employer (most contracts of employment have terms dealing with this). It would be reasonable for CSS to expect TP not to teach CSS techniques outside of the school but, let's not confuse the knowledge of riding fast with "technology" that can protected a la i/p.
By the way, in case anyone is wondering, I deal with i/p and copyright on a daily basis in contract law in my professional capacity. In a previous life to this I used to be a technical trainer for a large US corporation - teaching aspects of device manufacturing to engineers from the likes of Intel and AMD. Again, we could copyright training materials, documents, processes/procedures etc relating to a particular aspect of technology but, we could not apply this to the knowledge of the general principles of device fabrication.
....
For sure there is a boundary where the undertaking certain types work in one's spare time away from the principle business of the employer becomes a conflict of interests wrt the employer (most contracts of employment have terms dealing with this). It would be reasonable for CSS to expect TP not to teach CSS techniques outside of the school but, let's not confuse the knowledge of riding fast with "technology" that can protected a la i/p. ....
Hopefully we can save a bit of time by just pointing out that we have a terminology confusion moment here. 'Technology' - it's simply the term the school uses to refer to the CSS techniques etc. No-one is suggesting that the CSS is trying to copyright the mechanics of being able to operate a motorcycle.
:rolleye:
I hope that clears that up.
Now, I have nothing personal to gain from trying to help people on here and potential for grief with my employer.
I've put a lot of time and thought into constructing replies on this thread in a manner that I think will help people understand the school and whether it's for them or not. I think this thread has moved well beyond that now so I shall 'cease and desist'.
I'll help anyone who genuinely wants my help, within the constraints of my professional responsibilities, but I don't think I have anything left to offer this thread.
If anyone wants some help/information on the school etc from me, send me a PM or give me a call.
Have a nice day :D
No-one is suggesting that the CSS is trying to copyright the mechanics of being able to operate a motorcycle.
Quite. Nor was I suggesting that CSS were. :rolleye:
Andy Ibbott
10-Jun-2006, 13:40
What TP talks of here is the exclusivity agreement we have will all our coaches and that if they wish to operate at another track day, school, etc they have to have our permission. This is standard business practise. Why should we spend all our time and effort training him for him to go off and coach elsewhere?
We take the 26 years of research that Keith Code has done in Motorcycle Cornering discoveries and teaching techniques very seriously and work hard to protect that method and information from theft. We have, in the last 11 years in Europe sued people for ripping off what and how we teach, as well as for posting the books as PDFs, copies of the DVDs etc on the Internet.
I have a duty to protect CSS, not only for my livelihood but as a matter of professional honour.
I'm sure TP will give hints and pointers but this will be as far as he will be allowed to go. He is able to tell you what he sees, any issues that could be improved, but, he will be inviting you to attend the School to resolve these issues.
Much the same as I did for you at a very wet Mallory Park as couple of years ago and I have been invited to another DSC date and I will gladly do the same. Will I give you it all? No, of course not but I will give you an insight as to what can be achieved if you had the full package, not just a small hint. I have done the same recently for one of the MotoGP riders.
Andy
What TP talks of here is the exclusivity agreement we have will all our coaches and that if they wish to operate at another track day, school, etc they have to have our permission. This is standard business practise. Why should we spend all our time and effort training him for him to go off and coach elsewhere?
Precisely and that is what I was saying. There is no argument there. I was questioning the issue of i/p. You are talking about conflict of interest which I alluded to above in my previous post. Others including Tony brought up the issue of I/P which, is an entirely different kettle of fish altogether.
We take the 26 years of research that Keith Code has done in Motorcycle Cornering discoveries and teaching techniques very seriously and work hard to protect that method and information from theft. We have, in the last 11 years in Europe sued people for ripping off what and how we teach, as well as for posting the books as PDFs, copies of the DVDs etc on the Internet.
And did I not mention that? See above. I acknowledged that your materials were reasonably entitled to the protection afforded by copyright and the principles of i/p. Knowledge of how to ride fast is not.
I'm sure TP will give hints and pointers but this will be as far as he will be allowed to go. He is able to tell you what he sees, any issues that could be improved, but, he will be inviting you to attend the School to resolve these issues.
That is fair enough - I don't have any truck with that and I don't think anyone else would either.
I really do wish people would properly read what is written.
bradders
10-Jun-2006, 21:06
I understand the 'other track day company' argument, but fail to see how you can restrict someone from discussing/sharing info with a mate to help them ride better....so if a coach leaves CSS, is it expected that they will 'forget' the tuition?
its not like you've developed and patented something which no one else can do them selvles, you can read it all in a book, at best its a franchise from the yank guy
Whilst understanding the need to 'protect' a business, I do find it odd that people with an implied 'knowledge' are 'duty' bound not to pass that knowledge on because of 'business' constraints.
The CSS will, IMHO, succeed or fail based on what peolple get from actually taking part in the day, I cant see that a few words from TP would make you say " TP just gave me some advice, therefore I know all that that the CSS can offer me, therefore I will not pay to go on their training"
At the end of the day advice will always be given but most of us choose to ignore it unles we pay for it.
Why do pshycologists exist if my last point isn't correct.
* Disclaimer: I've had a belly of vino so I might have got some pointswrong
Andy Ibbott
11-Jun-2006, 09:05
Hi Guys,
I don't see any arguements here, TP can advise and no doubt will, in fact, I hope he does!
Andy
.... Others including Tony brought up the issue of I/P which, is an entirely different kettle of fish altogether....
My apologies if I got that wrong, that was my understanding.
Interesting reading.............
I appreciatte your position Tony.....the intent was not to create a law case, but see in some way see if the techniques you learnt at the CSS would benifit me in some way and perhaps help in my decision to attend one of the levels.
I was under no illusions that i was to be taken on a level 1 CSS course at the DSC trackday.....
another time perhaps matey.....
Phil
Sorry Fil,Dont think thats gonna happen. Sure TP may be able to give you a tow round but until you decide CSS is worthwhile and what we do is a good thing(i.e Do level 1) the tech is gonna remain unobtainable. Please dont expect TP to help you out just because he's a mate as it will cause him much grief from management.Rules is rules.
never thought you did anything other than a " good " thing Chris...?....my only concern has been will it make me faster ! this is something i have to consider very sensibly as the " commitment " needed for me to attend is Huge......i just cant suck it and see.......
Phil
Andy Ibbott
16-Jun-2006, 14:43
So how did we get on?
Andy
Andy Ibbott
21-Jun-2006, 22:26
So if any of you DSC'ers are interested, I have allocated a few spaces on the 4th July at Rockingham Level 1 to be sold at a 10% discount to DSC members.
Only 8 are available, so call Lynn on 08700 671061 quoting DSC476 as a booking reference.
Dominic Clegg
22-Jun-2006, 00:34
thats very nice of you
thank you
Yup that is very generous Andy. If I wasn't at Oulton Park that day and had more £'s I'd definately take you up on the offer. Having been fairly cynical towards the whole CSS thing, I had a chat with TP before the last race meeting, and I have to say I think it helped me win my second race of '06. So now I am keen to see what it's all about for real. It may take a while to save up though (having not worked since December :o )
After speaking to Tony about the CSS school a number of times my opinion is certainly changing....Tony has an excellent way of transmitting the positives in a very understanding way...
Unfortunatley it all comes down to finances....with racing the CSS is just out of my reach sadly......maybe if i can save some money in the off season it would be something i might be able to afford to help prep for 2007...........
Phil
couchcommando
04-Jul-2006, 12:48
Isn't the new motogp techniques book out now ?
Just wondering whether to buy it, anyone bought it and pass comment ?
Does it just repeat the teachings of CSS or does it describe other techniques ?
Andy Ibbott
05-Jul-2006, 19:54
Isn't the new motogp techniques book out now ?
Just wondering whether to buy it, anyone bought it and pass comment ?
Does it just repeat the teachings of CSS or does it describe other techniques ?
Well the boook only came out on Monday so I'm not sure how many people have had the chance to read it yet.
The book is based around interviews with the GP riders and an insight to what they do and we do and how we can improve.
All the best
Andy
Yup that is very generous Andy. If I wasn't at Oulton Park that day and had more £'s I'd definately take you up on the offer. Having been fairly cynical towards the whole CSS thing, I had a chat with TP before the last race meeting, and I have to say I think it helped me win my second race of '06. So now I am keen to see what it's all about for real. It may take a while to save up though (having not worked since December :o )
After speaking to Tony about the CSS school a number of times my opinion is certainly changing....Tony has an excellent way of transmitting the positives in a very understanding way...
Unfortunatley it all comes down to finances....with racing the CSS is just out of my reach sadly......maybe if i can save some money in the off season it would be something i might be able to afford to help prep for 2007...........
Phil
Thanks guys, I didn't see these posts last time this thread was prominent. It's nice to know the work/study I put in is starting to pay off.
There's one DSC member in particular I'd like to point these responses too ... you know who you are.
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