View Full Version : Who's best to run DD - the DSC!
Rattler
24-Sep-2006, 21:08
Now that I'm no longer on the Race Committee for the series, I can offer my opinion on here.
I resigned from the rider's rep role because I felt that personal agendas were directly driving the actions of those in positions of responsibility and I felt that these positions were being abused for personal gain.
It now seems that recent developments from outside of the RC are also being driven by personal agendas and politics.
I believe that for the greater good of the DD series, we should be managed by the DSC or their representatives, as long as these individuals do not demonstrate personal agendas.
I fear that any attempt to run the series by another party if handled incorrectly (which I believe the recent ones have) can only lead to disharmony and can potentially split the riders and ruin the series.
If personal agendas are not at play, then why can't these outsiders lobby the committee to demand that the changes in the way the series is run are delivered through the existing RC committee?
Or better still, ensure that the RC is made up of individuals who are nominated and voted in by the DD riders. The present RC can put themselves forward for election should they wish along with those that feel they can run it better.
Why wouldn't they - running the DD is what they want isn't it? Unless its just a ruse to attack certain individuals whilst hiding behind a supposed committee takeover play.
I worry that personal agendas may split the series and potentially end it if they are allowed to prosper. I'd like to see greater transparency in the activities of the RC and suggest again as above that its members are all voted in by the DD riders (and perhaps the DSC members).
Tim
antonye
24-Sep-2006, 21:12
You're right Tim. The ways and means are there to replace the RC should those rules be followed, and this underhand method of trying to drum up support and raise a lynch mob is just pathetic.
Chris Wood
24-Sep-2006, 21:15
Ditto Tim.
FFS
You're da man Tim. I agree 100%.
Feel the DD love.
Scooter916
24-Sep-2006, 21:51
Agreed, Tim well said
stumpy1
25-Sep-2006, 07:44
You're right Tim. The ways and means are there to replace the RC should those rules be followed, and this underhand method of trying to drum up support and raise a lynch mob is just pathetic.
well said!!!
phoenix n max
25-Sep-2006, 08:51
I worry that personal agendas may split the series and potentially end it if they are allowed to prosper.
I'd like to see greater transparency in the activities of the RC and suggest again as above that its members are all voted in by the DD riders (and perhaps the DSC members).
Tim
What i've been saying for a couple of months now.
And if we'd had greater transparency and commitment to the 'series' all along then none of this would have happened!
Now that I'm no longer on the Race Committee for the series, I can offer my opinion on here.
I resigned from the rider's rep role because I felt that personal agendas were directly driving the actions of those in positions of responsibility and I felt that these positions were being abused for personal gain.
It now seems that recent developments from outside of the RC are also being driven by personal agendas and politics.
I believe that for the greater good of the DD series, we should be managed by the DSC or their representatives, as long as these individuals do not demonstrate personal agendas.
I fear that any attempt to run the series by another party if handled incorrectly (which I believe the recent ones have) can only lead to disharmony and can potentially split the riders and ruin the series.
If personal agendas are not at play, then why can't these outsiders lobby the committee to demand that the changes in the way the series is run are delivered through the existing RC committee?
Or better still, ensure that the RC is made up of individuals who are nominated and voted in by the DD riders. The present RC can put themselves forward for election should they wish along with those that feel they can run it better.
Why wouldn't they - running the DD is what they want isn't it? Unless its just a ruse to attack certain individuals whilst hiding behind a supposed committee takeover play.
I worry that personal agendas may split the series and potentially end it if they are allowed to prosper. I'd like to see greater transparency in the activities of the RC and suggest again as above that its members are all voted in by the DD riders (and perhaps the DSC members).
Tim
I agree 100% the DSC should run DD but I think they should let New Era control it All the DD need is a riders rep to liaison with New Era we don't need the RC.
skidlids
25-Sep-2006, 09:25
Nicely put Tim
I'd like to see greater transparency in the activities of the RC and suggest again as above that its members are all voted in by the DD riders (and perhaps the DSC members).
Tim
I think the DSC members should have a say, turn the clock back two years, at that time there wasn't any DD riders only members of the DSC and its management team and from this the DD race series was born. Initial support came from DSC members signing up for the series late in 2004 which gave enough entrants for the organisers to approach various race bodies to enable the DD series to run.
The first ever DD race in 2005 put 30 bikes out on the grid at Cadwell, by the start of 2006 this figure had grown 47 bikes taking to the grid at Cadwell in March. Where to in 2007 ??
I would like DD to stay with the DSC in 2007 as well, but I have a problem with allowing the whole membership to vote on something that only affects about 35 of us.
DD may be a DSC event, but without the people who actually get out there and race, there is no series. Therefore I think it is only reasonable/sensible to allow those directly involved to decide their destiny, rather than the whole membership who won't be affected one way or another.
I doubt if many non-DD racers could care less about who runs it anyway.
I also think it would be too open to abuse or peer pressure if you allowed the whole membership to vote. At the risk of sounding controversial, I think there are lots of club members that would back MT members purely because they don't want to upset them.
Lastly, the RC members from 2005 and 2006 have proven that they are not the right people to run DD in 2007.
Chris Wood
25-Sep-2006, 10:45
My view...
The DSC and the DD organisers (whover they are) need to run and control the series.
-including race formats / points / prizes / entry cirteria etc.
New Era put the races on for us.
- as they do for everyone else.
The series was intended to and should remain different from everyone / everything else. The same RC getting BAD press are also the ones who sorted a number of issues out this year for DD to run as smoothly as possible. Tyres, Assen, Donnington, Press coverage, guest riders.
As we have seen this year, we are just a small cog in the New Era wheel.
The riders working WITH people (DSC / DD / RC / Riders Reps / New Era) in this series is the way forward. NOT the constant battling between individuals who are self promoting / with alternate agendas / thinking they can and will do better than that person etc. / wanting to make a point etc. If the behaviour that has happened this year happened in a workplace people should be sacked....and I work in HR!
I joined DD to race with my DSC current and new mates in an enjoyable, fun and friendly series, just like 90% of the people involved. The other 10% can go and race Hysongogogo mobiles as far as I'm concerned and take the petty politics with them. It's not WSB people, in fact it's a relatively NOVICE CLUB series, get off your soap box and enjoy. If not go elsewhere PLEASE.
I'n not supporting the RC or the individuals concerned, I just have a long clear memory as to what this DD thing was all about...people seen to be forgetting that.
What I'm suggesting is not difficult and I have and will continue to support the DD series going forward in 2007 fomally or informally in any role.
Unless I really chuck it down the road at Cadwell and hurt myself....
Chris Wood
25-Sep-2006, 10:55
DD may be a DSC event, but without the people who actually get out there and race, there is no series.
Lastly, the RC members from 2005 and 2006 have proven that they are not the right people to run DD in 2007.
Dom,
Without the DSC there would be no DD, there are lots of races annd racers out there.
Please show some respect for the efforts that have been made over the past two year to make the DD happen, sure things haven't been perfect. If you can't do that then stop publicly having a go at people.
Without the DSC run DD, you and the riders wouldn't have gone to Assen and you and Phil wouldn't have got a race series to win.
Rattler
25-Sep-2006, 11:12
I would like DD to stay with the DSC in 2007 as well, but I have a problem with allowing the whole membership to vote on something that only affects about 35 of us.
DD may be a DSC event, but without the people who actually get out there and race, there is no series. Therefore I think it is only reasonable/sensible to allow those directly involved to decide their destiny, rather than the whole membership who won't be affected one way or another.
I doubt if many non-DD racers could care less about who runs it anyway.
I also think it would be too open to abuse or peer pressure if you allowed the whole membership to vote. At the risk of sounding controversial, I think there are lots of club members that would back MT members purely because they don't want to upset them.
Lastly, the RC members from 2005 and 2006 have proven that they are not the right people to run DD in 2007.
Fair points Dom, but to your last point, it could be argued that the series wouldn't have all that it does have (good and bad) without the RC members over the last 2 years. They haven't always done right in my opinion (that's why I resigned), but they have done a lot of good by getting the series going and to the point it is today. If we are allowed to vote (and I think it should just be the DD riders too), then we can decide whether those presently on the RC should remain.
Tim
Dom,
Without the DSC there would be no DD
I don't see what your getting at. I said I want DD to remain with DSC. I just don't see why EVERYONE should have a say on who or how it's run.
Please show some respect for the efforts that have been made over the past two year to make the DD happen, sure things haven't been perfect. If you can't do that then stop publicly having a go at people.
I think you'll find I'm often the first person to say when good things have been done. I'm also one of the first to point out when things are not being done. Respect goes both ways too.
Without the DSC run DD, you and the riders wouldn't have gone to Assen and you and Phil wouldn't have got a race series to win.
I could have gone to Assen without DSC, and I could have won another race series without DD/DSC. That's not the point at all. I like DD & the DSC and I want it to be run the best it can be. So far, although certain things have been very good, I think a lot needs to be improved upon and I personally don't think the current RC are the right people to do it.
Can I not have a personal opinion now? or only if its all nicey nicey??
We could just sweep everything under the carpet, put our heads in the sand and pretend everything is perfect of course.
Fair points Dom, but to your last point, it could be argued that the series wouldn't have all that it does have (good and bad) without the RC members over the last 2 years. They haven't always done right in my opinion (that's why I resigned), but they have done a lot of good by getting the series going and to the point it is today. If we are allowed to vote (and I think it should just be the DD riders too), then we can decide whether those presently on the RC should remain.
Tim
That's all I'm saying.
Why do you all read in to what I post and make out I hold some extreme view.
As I just said to Chris, I will always applaud the good work - which I have done, but I will also criticise when things are done poorly.
On balance, I think someone else should be given the opportunity to improve DD - unless nobody wants to do it.
Rattler
25-Sep-2006, 11:19
Why do you all read in to what I post and make out I hold some extreme view.
Well, on this point, you have often shown the ability in your other postings to take an "extreme" view - nothing wrong with that, but don't be surprised if others may think that you hold "extreme" views on many subjects too...
Tim
My view...
The DSC and the DD organisers (whover they are) need to run and control the series.
-including race formats / points / prizes / entry cirteria etc.
New Era put the races on for us.
- as they do for everyone else.
The series was intended to and should remain different from everyone / everything else. The same RC getting BAD press are also the ones who sorted a number of issues out this year for DD to run as smoothly as possible. Tyres, Assen, Donnington, Press coverage, guest riders.
As we have seen this year, we are just a small cog in the New Era wheel.
The riders working WITH people (DSC / DD / RC / Riders Reps / New Era) in this series is the way forward. NOT the constant battling between individuals who are self promoting / with alternate agendas / thinking they can and will do better than that person etc. / wanting to make a point etc. If the behaviour that has happened this year happened in a workplace people should be sacked....and I work in HR!
I joined DD to race with my DSC current and new mates in an enjoyable, fun and friendly series, just like 90% of the people involved. The other 10% can go and race Hysongogogo mobiles as far as I'm concerned and take the petty politics with them. It's not WSB people, in fact it's a relatively NOVICE CLUB series, get off your soap box and enjoy. If not go elsewhere PLEASE.
I'n not supporting the RC or the individuals concerned, I just have a long clear memory as to what this DD thing was all about...people seen to be forgetting that.
What I'm suggesting is not difficult and I have and will continue to support the DD series going forward in 2007 fomally or informally in any role.
Unless I really chuck it down the road at Cadwell and hurt myself....
Absolutely agree with Chris on this.....well said .................100%
Phil
Well, on this point, you have often shown the ability in your other postings to take an "extreme" view - nothing wrong with that, but don't be surprised if others may think that you hold "extreme" views on many subjects too...
Tim
I am Mr Unextreme :cool:
I can see that some things I say may be seen as over-enthusiastic, but...
"the RC members from 2005 and 2006 have proven that they are not the right people to run DD in 2007."
...isn't extreme is it?
Maybe it is :confused:
I was just about to agree with Dom's concerns over having the DSC rather than just the DD riders voting on DD matters when I remembered -
DD was intended as a series for DSC members to experience racing, NOT as a one-make series where the riders made the racing decisions themselves, while benefitting from someone else sorting out tyres, sponsorship, entry criteria etc
That said, the DD doesn’t always seem to have enjoyed the fullest support of some sections of the DSC membership or officaldom.......
I tend to support the view that sorting out the rules,venues,formats, grids etc should be done by representatives of the DSC before the start of the season and then a single person act as liasion with the race organiser (NE or whoever) and back into the riders and the DSC.
Then it is down to individuals to decide if they want to race under the rules and conditions available at the start of the year and join or not join the series accordingly.
There may well be minor changes to the odd round and while it can be a pain, it happens in pretty much all forms of competitive sport, motor or otherwise.
So to sum up, the people who have done the majority of the hardwork in the setting up of the series thus far are arguably the best people to take us into 2007, but perhaps a different personality is required for initially dealing with any issues arising during the season?
I am Mr Unextreme :cool:
I can see that some things I say may be seen as over-enthusiastic, but...
"the RC members from 2005 and 2006 have proven that they are not the right people to run DD in 2007."
...isn't extreme is it?
Maybe it is :confused:
series going from strenght to strenght...!!...2 championships increased grid numbers...overseas round....Oulton park added as requested...tyre deal..shell oil pack....press coverage..!!.
All good things that the DD/RC have done.....
Sure there are " issues " that have arisen but are they not due to outside influences other than DD born......
Im not saying the RC are all brillaint and get everything right !!! how can they with 45 plus different views and opinions.? cos they are not...but better the devil.?...
edited to add and support Paul in VOTE CHRIS WOOD IN........................to work with along side the MT on the DD
I was just about to agree with Dom's concerns over having the DSC rather than just the DD riders voting on DD matters when I remembered -
DD was intended as a series for DSC members to experience racing, NOT as a one-make series where the riders made the racing decisions themselves, while benefitting from someone else sorting out tyres, sponsorship, entry criteria etc
That said, the DD doesn’t always seem to have enjoyed the fullest support of some sections of the DSC membership or officaldom.......
I tend to support the view that sorting out the rules,venues,formats, grids etc should be done by representatives of the DSC before the start of the season and then a single person act as liasion with the race organiser (NE or whoever) and back into the riders and the DSC.
Then it is down to individuals to decide if they want to race under the rules and conditions available at the start of the year and join or not join the series accordingly.
There may well be minor changes to the odd round and while it can be a pain, it happens in pretty much all forms of competitive sport, motor or otherwise.
So to sum up, the people who have done the majority of the hardwork in the setting up of the series thus far are arguably the best people to take us into 2007, but perhaps a different personality is required for initially dealing with any issues arising during the season?
Vote Chris Wood !!!
I agree.
There is a lot involved in pinning down the details that should now be pretty much sorted - thanks from me to ALL involved for that work.
I was just trying to think out how to say we should think back to the reason it all started, and try and keep it simple, with no poncing around once the season has started.
Vote Chris Wood.
Rattler
25-Sep-2006, 12:12
[COLOR=black]Vote Chris Wood !!!
But he's a bloody Aussie!! - they'll be taking our jobs next!!! ;)
phoenix n max
25-Sep-2006, 12:23
Seems to me like a co-ordinated effort from all sides is required to put this back on track.
There are so many opinions, he said, they said, he did, they did or didn't !
There are many issues, some should be considered, some should be moved on from.
The end result of all this arguing will only serve to alienate the membership further, put off riders from joining and ultiamtely see the series or a derivitive of possibly being taken an advantage of by another club.
There are and have been serious issues raised this year - last year was teething issues, this year have been ones that should NEVER have happened - but they did. So now is the time to make sure they don't happen again and everyone puts the effort in to secure 2007.
Hindsight !!
Personally I think a meeting at Cadwell is a good idea - however please leave your handbags hanging on the handlebars and lets try and make the series something EVERYONE involved with can be proud of.
Did we not all say the same things 12 months ago?
There are and have been serious issues raised this year - last year was teething issues, this year have been ones that should NEVER have happened - but they did.
im interested to understand what these serious issue's are.?......
dont answer if its gonna go all " defcon 1 "....lol
phoenix n max
25-Sep-2006, 12:34
I resigned from the rider's rep role because I felt that personal agendas were directly driving the actions of those in positions of responsibility and I felt that these positions were being abused for personal gain.
It now seems that recent developments from outside of the RC are also being driven by personal agendas and politics.
Tim
These kinds of issues Phil. :)
These kinds of issues Phil. :)
i agree 100%.........................
i cant do smileys will this do ;-)
phoenix n max
25-Sep-2006, 12:41
Did we not all say the same things 12 months ago?
If i recall correctly there were similar manouverings going on then.
I fail to see the logic.
It should be something everyone is proud of - riders, representatives and club members, instead it's a joke.
Everyone has made an effort in some way, spent cash, time and added their commitment at a level they saw fit.
Some used it as a means to get something, though i fail to see what, out of it. Majority enjoyed it, were passionate about it, and hopefully still are.
I've no wish to blame anyone specific here - but folks wake up huh - see whats happening here - Do you want this to happen again next year ?
What an excellent thread.
As a member of the MT who does not have any 'official' involvement with DD, it's very heartening to see the support that exists for the DSC continuing to run the series and some recognition for the hard work that has been put in to get the series to where it is today.
I know that some mistakes have been made, some of them thumping great big ones, but that just goes to show that human beings with all their faults are involved.
From my point of view running the DD series splits into several areas that all require attention and some improvement. Just as in any business there is the day to day operational management (ie: the nitty gritty of organising the events and schedules, communicating the same to riders and remembering the damned trophies to name but a few tasks) this role should be to ensure that all riders have to worry about is turning up and racing - I used to compete in international rallies and I know theres enough for a competitor to do without having to worry about what the event arrangements are. The way I see it, whoever does this role (whether it's the RC or an individual) and the riders themselves have absolutely the right to have the most involvement in this aspect. Same goes for sponsors.
I'm speaking for myself here not as an MT representative, but I think that DD should be one of the flagship activities of the club and it is important enough (in my view) to have a dedicated MT 'role' devoted to the running of DD. It would not be fair to dump that volume of work on one individual, so I would also like to see a structure of volunteers who would assist the MT role but not necessarily have any say in how the series was run.
So the MT role would do all of the operational management, liaising with New Era, Riders and Sponsors (making sure that the sponsors relationship with the DSC was equitable). maybe they wouldn't do all that themselves but they would be accountable to all of the above for the successful day to day operation.
In the same way, that MT member also needs to be accountable to the MT and MOST IMPORTANTLY to the membership of the club. On an operational basis that needs to be the case so that any money spent on DD (which of course belongs to all the members) can be justified and spent with required approval.
As far as the membership of the DSC is concerned I think that it IS a DSC series and therefore EVERY member should be entitled to a view of what DD is all about and how their money is spent in it's support.
I'm not advocating that we run a poll for every member on every decision, that would plainly be ridiculous, that's why I'm suggesting that the full time MT member should be elected for that purpose and given the mandate to make 'day-to-day' operational decision by the membership.
What I am suggesting is that the full membership should have a mechanism by which their suggestions and voice about the strategic direction of DD can be heard and considered. That is all I've ever advocated. Some type of suggestion box, if you will, that can be periodically considered by a DD comittee (chaired by the DD MT member) so that everyones input can be fairly evaluated, decisions made and the results of those decisions communicated.
I don't know precisely how this would work but I believe that if this governance structure was put in place it would give the members a chance to voice their ideas about whether the strategic direction of DD was in line with the aims and values of running the club in the first place. Clearly, DD as it now stands is consistent with those aims (as spelled out in the club constitution) but we do need some form of governance structure that ensures that DD remains consistent with those aims. For example, if we turned round and said "OK, this years DD effort is to spend the clubs entire reserve on doing all the GP circuits in the world" that would be stupid and I believe it IS the whole mebership who need to apply a sanity check to the strategic thinking behind DD.
If we do this with the right mechanisms and in a clear, open and honest way I believe that we can give the riders and sponsors the respect they deserve for their financial and time commitment and ensure that the members have their say as well. What members don't want to see IMHO is the riders electing themselves as some type of elite echelon of the DSC and cutting them out of the decision making loop
Wow, I never knew that... you can press the space bar to page down the thread!
Every day's a school day!
So you only have to press the space bar 10 times to skip my posts then ;)
I found your post very interesting Jools.
Murray Mint
25-Sep-2006, 13:31
Wow, I never knew that... you can press the space bar to page down the thread!
Every day's a school day!
SO how do you page up then:D
press the 'Page Up' button!
so if a " DSC" member but not a DD racer?sponsor has an opinion or an idea then that has to be listened to by the MT/RC even though they have not directly supported the DD other than with there 25 quid membership fee...?
From what i understood no club funds have ever been used to set up DD.!
ANY ideas should be considered by the MT/RC shouldn't they?
You never know, it might be a good idea.
Murray Mint
25-Sep-2006, 13:35
press the 'Page Up' button!
To easy
phoenix n max
25-Sep-2006, 13:36
ANY ideas should be considered by the MT/RC shouldn't they?
You never know, it might be a good idea.
I suggest Nick wears a dress for the entire Cadwell Meeting when not on the track :D
Votes ?
I like your post Jools and agree with everything you say (I think)
As far as the membership of the DSC is concerned I think that it IS a DSC series and therefore EVERY member should be entitled to a view of what DD is all about and how their money is spent in it's support.
I have no problem in the general DSC membership having views and opinions, in fact everyone should be encouraged to express ideas and suggestions.
I just think it's a bit unfair to have the general membership 'voting' on things that only affect the racers, like "Which person should run the series?" or "How many rounds should there be?" etc etc
What I am suggesting is that the full membership should have a mechanism by which their suggestions and voice about the strategic direction of DD can be heard and considered.
Totally agree.
Does anyone know how much of the club funds are actually used for DD?
I also get the impression that some members think that DD is laid on for us for free, and they get the hump coz some of us complain sometimes. Perhaps something can be published to clear that up? It's cost me over £3500 (of Domski money) this season and I've not had to buy a bike AND I have good sponsorship too! Some people have spent £10,000+
This isn't a DSC jolly.
:)
Dougducati
25-Sep-2006, 13:46
Does anyone know how much of the club funds are actually used for DD?
:)
I think a couple of hundred quid was used early September!!!!
I just think it's a bit unfair to have the general membership 'voting' on things that only affect the racers, like "Which person should run the series?" or "How many rounds should there be?" etc etc
I also get the impression that some members think that DD is laid on for us for free, and they get the hump coz some of us complain sometimes. Perhaps something can be published to clear that up? It's cost me over £3500 (of Domski money) this season and I've not had to buy a bike AND I have good sponsorship too! Some people have spent £10,000+
This isn't a DSC jolly.
:)
agree on both those counts dom.........
I think a couple of hundred quid was used early September!!!!
I bet theres more DSC..ers do track days than race in this series. Why cant that money be put towards an even cheaper club track day? :rolleyes:
"I also get the impression that some members think that DD is laid on for us for free, and they get the hump coz some of us complain sometimes. Perhaps something can be published to clear that up? It's cost me over £3500 (of Domski money) this season and I've not had to buy a bike AND I have good sponsorship too! Some people have spent £10,000+
This isn't a DSC jolly."
You are right Dom-it isn't a jolly it's racing, and would have cost you the same whatever class you were racing in. By the same token the DD series has since it started cost me loads of money-for a start it cost's me £50 in diesel every time I go to any of the tracks apart from Snett (which is nearer). You at least get the joy(?) of racing-I'm not sure what 'personal gain' I or any of the other people who have helped run this series from the start are supposed to have made??
John
psychlist
25-Sep-2006, 14:03
I suggest Nick wears a dress for the entire Cadwell Meeting when not on the track :D
Gets a bit "samey" when it happens too often tho Lin ;)
phoenix n max
25-Sep-2006, 14:04
[quote=phoenix n max]I suggest Nick wears a dress for the entire Cadwell Meeting when not on the track :D
[quote]
Gets a bit "samey" when it happens too often tho Lin ;)
Yeah but I've always missed it :(
psychlist
25-Sep-2006, 14:06
I think a couple of hundred quid was used early September!!!!
For what?
For what?
the DUK truck..........................
Does anyone know how much of the club funds are actually used for DD?
I also get the impression that some members think that DD is laid on for us for free, and they get the hump coz some of us complain sometimes. Perhaps something can be published to clear that up? It's cost me over £3500 (of Domski money) this season and I've not had to buy a bike AND I have good sponsorship too! Some people have spent £10,000+
This isn't a DSC jolly.
:)
There were about £1000 in set up costs initially IIRC, the figure was in the accounts presented at the last AGM and posted out to all member afterwards, not a lot in to get things off the ground IMHO.
Ongoing costs are covered by the registration fee???
Not everything boils down to ££££, the biggest wallet shouldn't prevail at this level, Money doesn't talk unless you are Bernie E.
The series was set up to be a two way thing, the club got a new facet for the members, be they racers, spectators, etc, the racers/competitors got a reasonably cheap way to move onwards and upwards from track days.
The governance of the series needs a link to club and or MT to ensure that is not lost sight of.
Ray.
psychlist
25-Sep-2006, 14:12
the DUK truck..........................
Where was that then?
"I also get the impression that some members think that DD is laid on for us for free, and they get the hump coz some of us complain sometimes. Perhaps something can be published to clear that up? It's cost me over £3500 (of Domski money) this season and I've not had to buy a bike AND I have good sponsorship too! Some people have spent £10,000+
This isn't a DSC jolly."
You are right Dom-it isn't a jolly it's racing, and would have cost you the same whatever class you were racing in. By the same token the DD series has since it started cost me loads of money-for a start it cost's me £50 in diesel every time I go to any of the tracks apart from Snett (which is nearer). You at least get the joy(?) of racing-I'm not sure what 'personal gain' I or any of the other people who have helped run this series from the start are supposed to have made??
John
You've misunderstood my point I think John.
What I am saying is...
Some DSC members appear to be under the impression that DD is free.
Where was that then?
Brands last year.....was it the only cost the DSC funded for the DD.?
There were about £1000 in set up costs initially IIRC, the figure was in the accounts presented at the last AGM and posted out to all member afterwards, not a lot in to get things off the ground IMHO.
Ongoing costs are covered by the registration fee???
Not everything boils down to ££££, the biggest wallet shouldn't prevail at this level, Money doesn't talk unless you are Bernie E.
The series was set up to be a two way thing, the club got a new facet for the members, be they racers, spectators, etc, the racers/competitors got a reasonably cheap way to move onwards and upwards from track days.
The governance of the series needs a link to club and or MT to ensure that is not lost sight of.
Ray.
Am I not writing in English today?? :confused:
My (rhetorical) question about how much clubs funds were spent on DD, was just to illustrate that not very much club money has been spent on DD - which is a very good thing!
I'm trying to make the point that the riders/teams are the ones spending the money (as we should be) and that DD is not free (see other post) or subsidised by the club.
Some people think it is (or appear to).
DD is a great series, it's a DSC series, it's open to all the members, but only taken advantage of by a few. Those few, spend a fortune to take part and put on a great event that the club should (and are) proud of.
That said, I think decisions affecting DD riders need to be handled very carefully and not passed out to the general membership to decide.
One other small point...
It is my opinion that some aspects of the DD series have been handled in a such a way to promote the DSC and not for the benefit of the riders.
I think that whoever is looking after DD in 2007 needs to remember that they are acting on behalf of the riders firstly (like a union rep), followed very closely by the benefits to the general club etc.
If riders lose confidence and continue to drop out, then we're left with nothing.
Just a thought, not a poke. It may not even be an issue. Just wanted to raise it. I think it's a valid point.
:)
In the interest of not wanting to appear to have a hidden agenda or be part of any clique I have removed the "Vote for...." comment. This was merely an attempt to be witty.
I think a couple of hundred quid was used early September!!!!
We were told that no club funds were used on Desmo Due. Then at the AGM in the accounts was an item listed as desmo due, I can't remember the cost. I queried this to be told that the money was spent on getting the series sponsor, Ducati UK, to bring their truck to the Brands Hatch round in Sept.
That's all that I'm aware of.
Rattler
25-Sep-2006, 14:32
You are right Dom-it isn't a jolly it's racing, and would have cost you the same whatever class you were racing in. By the same token the DD series has since it started cost me loads of money-for a start it cost's me £50 in diesel every time I go to any of the tracks apart from Snett (which is nearer). You at least get the joy(?) of racing-I'm not sure what 'personal gain' I or any of the other people who have helped run this series from the start are supposed to have made??
John
John - I'm not sure I understood your point.
If you don't (didn't) gain anything from running the series, then why would you do it? Perhaps you thought you would, but haven't? Perhaps its a charitable act?
What "personal gain" do you seek from any of your DSC activities? What have you gained from running the trackdays?
Tim
Am I not writing in English today?? :confused:
My (rhetorical) question about how much clubs funds were spent on DD, was just to illustrate that not very much club money has been spent on DD - which is a very good thing!
I'm trying to make the point that the riders/teams are the ones spending the money (as we should be) and that DD is not free (see other post) or subsidised by the club.
Some people think it is (or appear to).
DD is a great series, it's a DSC series, it's open to all the members, but only taken advantage of by a few. Those few, spend a fortune to take part and put on a great event that the club should (and are) proud of.
That said, I think decisions affecting DD riders need to be handled very carefully and not passed out to the general membership to decide.
One other small point...
It is my opinion that some aspects of the DD series have been handled in a such a way to promote the DSC and not for the benefit of the riders.
I think that whoever is looking after DD in 2007 needs to remember that they are acting on behalf of the riders firstly (like a union rep), followed very closely by the benefits to the general club etc.
If riders lose confidence and continue to drop out, then we're left with nothing.
Just a thought, not a poke. It may not even be an issue. Just wanted to raise it. I think it's a valid point.
:)
nicely put dom and i agree
"I also get the impression that some members think that DD is laid on for us for free, and they get the hump coz some of us complain sometimes. Perhaps something can be published to clear that up? It's cost me over £3500 (of Domski money) this season and I've not had to buy a bike AND I have good sponsorship too! Some people have spent £10,000+
This isn't a DSC jolly."
You are right Dom-it isn't a jolly it's racing, and would have cost you the same whatever class you were racing in. By the same token the DD series has since it started cost me loads of money-for a start it cost's me £50 in diesel every time I go to any of the tracks apart from Snett (which is nearer). You at least get the joy(?) of racing-I'm not sure what 'personal gain' I or any of the other people who have helped run this series from the start are supposed to have made??
John
We made a choice to race in dd as you made a choice to be on the MT/RC...50 quid lol small change.!
philanthropy.
Who are you calling a stamp collector? :lol:
We were told that no club funds were used on Desmo Due. Then at the AGM in the accounts was an item listed as desmo due, I can't remember the cost. I queried this to be told that the money was spent on getting the series sponsor, Ducati UK, to bring their truck to the Brands Hatch round in Sept.
That's all that I'm aware of.
That is right Tony, the cost attached was the truck at the Brands Hatch round. As I was involved with making the decision to bring that truck to Brands I can tell you what my thoughts on it were at the time: The plan was that a lot of Ducati dealers would get their known customers together, arrange a ride in, have special parking next to the truck and we had the opportunity of using the truck to gain new members, - in reality it was part marketing exercise to get new members, - so perhaps the cost could have been spread into a marketing section on our books, but I am not sure that we have a marketing budget! In reality the dealer take up was disappointing, - with DLS/DLC raising most interest with their ride in. It was also a good opportunity for a number of people who were thinking about joining for 2006 to come along and meet the club and see what it is all about. It could have been used by riders as a focal point for their existing sponsors and potential sponsors. Looking back I do not think anybody used it to its full potential but we live and learn. It did keep us dry on the Saturday night when the storm came in!
psychlist
25-Sep-2006, 15:42
Brands last year.....was it the only cost the DSC funded for the DD.?
Last year, exactly.
The way it was mentioned appeared to be suggesting September this year?
Oh behave people! I think Dougski was attempting humour.
Dougducati
25-Sep-2006, 15:59
Oh behave people! I think Dougski was attempting humour.
Thanks Nick
Didn't really work though did it?
psychlist
25-Sep-2006, 16:01
Thanks Nick
Didn't really work though did it?
Not today mate ;)
Thanks Nick
Didn't really work though did it?
If it's any consolation, I got knew what you meant ;)
Just thought it best to not say anything :rolleyes:
:cool:
Oh behave people! I think Dougski was attempting humour.
Because everyone can pick out humour and nuance etc through one line of text devoid of emotion ... :rolleyes:
so if a " DSC" member but not a DD racer?sponsor has an opinion or an idea then that has to be listened to by the MT/RC even though they have not directly supported the DD other than with there 25 quid membership fee...?
From what i understood no club funds have ever been used to set up DD.!
If no club funds were ever used - what is the '£1025 - Cost of DesmoDue' quoted in the 2005 Financial Review, by David B Burnie, 14/02/06 - viewable on the Members Area?
I don't have a problem as such - but let's not forget that the ordinary DSC members have contributed to your series.
If no club funds were ever used - what is the '£1025 - Cost of DesmoDue' quoted in the 2005 Financial Review, by David B Burnie, 14/02/06 - viewable on the Members Area?
I don't have a problem as such - but let's not forget that the ordinary DSC members have contributed to your series.
I have no idea dude............as far as i was concerned no club funds were used other than the explaine DUK truck.........
interested to hear how the "ordinary" DSC members contribute.?....this is not a dig !! its a genuine question to you as a dsc member who does not race in DD.?
please dont think for a second that i dont think they do....!!
That is right Tony, the cost attached was the truck at the Brands Hatch round. As I was involved with making the decision to bring that truck to Brands I can tell you what my thoughts on it were at the time: The plan was that a lot of Ducati dealers would get their known customers together, arrange a ride in, have special parking next to the truck and we had the opportunity of using the truck to gain new members, - in reality it was part marketing exercise to get new members, - so perhaps the cost could have been spread into a marketing section on our books, but I am not sure that we have a marketing budget! In reality the dealer take up was disappointing, - with DLS/DLC raising most interest with their ride in. It was also a good opportunity for a number of people who were thinking about joining for 2006 to come along and meet the club and see what it is all about. It could have been used by riders as a focal point for their existing sponsors and potential sponsors. Looking back I do not think anybody used it to its full potential but we live and learn. It did keep us dry on the Saturday night when the storm came in!
Sure, thanks Ian.
I wasn't commenting on the reasons behind the decision, only the facts as they had been explained to me.
:)
ChrisBushell
25-Sep-2006, 16:22
Folks,
I gave the treasurers presentation at the AGM this year and whilst I dont have the details to hand at the moment, from memory not only diid we contribute towards the Ducati Truck at Bands, we had to provide racers with stickers for the series, we incurred costs for end of year trophies, etc.
All of this was passed by the auditor and the AGM.
So yes the full membership did contribute to DD in the 1st year, just as the Club will be providing some of the trophies for this year at the Dinner Dance.
Overall Desmo Due is a small cost item to the Club, there is no income stream attached to it, unless we were to levy an entry fee of some sort from each rider.
Chris
I have no idea dude............as far as i was concerned no club funds were used other than the explaine DUK truck.........
interested to hear how the "ordinary" DSC members contribute.?....this is not a dig !! its a genuine question to you as a dsc member who does not race in DD.?
please dont think for a second that i dont think they do....!!
I don't consciously contribute in any way shape or form, but - if the MT spends money from club funds, then I do by default. I have the choice to leave the club if I don't like the way the MT spends the money.
Luckily, as I've said on numerous occasions - I'm more than happy with the way the club is run, with how my £20 is spent etc. and I'm not complaining, but if it is still a DSC series, with DSC funding, then surely the views of DSC members need to be heard.
If no club funds were ever used - what is the '£1025 - Cost of DesmoDue' quoted in the 2005 Financial Review, by David B Burnie, 14/02/06 - viewable on the Members Area?
I don't have a problem as such - but let's not forget that the ordinary DSC members have contributed to your series.
that is the truck ( I think, - well it must be as that was the only cost), spend was 2005 shown in 2006 at the 2005 AGM which takes place in 2006!!
BUT we should not be getting into a divide over this IMO. It is not "your" series; it is "our" series. As I said above the cost of the truck was put down as DD, - but as Chair I saw it as an opportunity for the wider club, - there really should be no them and us. This is a club activity, all members are given a chance to take part either as a rider or a spectator, - (and as a mere spectator the series last year gave myself and family a lot of entertainment). This club was started as a way of bringing people together that have an interest in the many areas of Ducati ownership, - not so as to divide people into trackday-ers, rideout-ers, desmoDue-ers and SwissBank-ers.
Here's my take on the DD expense thing:
Assuming there IS a DD expenditaure in club funds...
The ordinary members (is there any other kind?) do contribute a part of their membership fee to DD. But that's just in the same way as every member contributes to every other expenditure, whether they make use of the benefits of the purchase or not.
I pay my £20 a year and leave it up to the MT do do what they feel best with that money - it's not for me to say others can't enjoy a service just because I don't want to. If I weren't happy to have part of my membership fee spent on a particular activity then I'd either keep my money or raise my concern at the agm.
Make sense?
Here's my take on the DD expense thing:
Assuming there IS a DD expenditaure in club funds...
The ordinary members (is there any other kind?) do contribute a part of their membership fee to DD. But that's just in the same way as every member contributes to every other expenditure, whether they make use of the benefits of the purchase or not.
I pay my £20 a year and leave it up to the MT do do what they feel best with that money - it's not for me to say others can't enjoy a service just because I don't want to. If I weren't happy to have part of my membership fee spent on a particular activity then I'd either keep my money or raise my concern at the agm.
Make sense?
yup ...
Lets not make a mountain out of a molehill again.
Apologies for being the person to point this out but Ian and Chris have just contradicted each other. Chris, you explained that DUK provided the trophies so what trophies did the club pay for?
As I said at the AGM, and have reiterated since, the money spent on bringing the DUK truck to Brands last year was a potential boon for the club and I'm in favour of spending money in a marketing capacity for the club - not just for DD as a whole but for the wider membership. The issue was the fact that we were told that no club funds were spent on DD only to find the item in the accounts attributed to DD.
That's my take anyway.
Lets not make a mountain out of a molehill again.
Apologies for being the person to point this out but Ian and Chris have just contradicted each other. Chris, you explained that DUK provided the trophies so what trophies did the club pay for?
As I said at the AGM, and have reiterated since, the money spent on bringing the DUK truck to Brands last year was a potential boon for the club and I'm in favour of spending money in a marketing capacity for the club - not just for DD as a whole but for the wider membership. The issue was the fact that we were told that no club funds were spent on DD only to find the item in the accounts attributed to DD.
That's my take anyway.
I think he means dinner dance trophies, and there were race shirts for the "Does your boss know" awards. :-)
I gave the treasurers presentation at the AGM this year and whilst I dont have the details to hand at the moment, from memory not only diid we contribute towards the Ducati Truck at Bands, we had to provide racers with stickers for the series, we incurred costs for end of year trophies, etc.
This is the bit that I don't recall, and it seems that Ian wasn't aware of this either by his post above. Sorry Ian, I don't mean to pick on you or the decision I'm just trying to point out what appears to be a lack of clarity/communications on this.
When I asked the question at the AGM Chris you told me that the money in the accounts attributed to DD was for the DUK truck - nothing else. You didn't mention the stickers etc and I recall being told by either yourself or Monty at the start of last season that all the stickers were supplied by the sponsors themselves - why would we pay sponsors to ride with their stickers?!
Chris Wood
25-Sep-2006, 16:38
Here's my take on the DD expense thing:
Assuming there IS a DD expenditaure in club funds...
The ordinary members (is there any other kind?) do contribute a part of their membership fee to DD. But that's just in the same way as every member contributes to every other expenditure, whether they make use of the benefits of the purchase or not.
I pay my £20 a month and leave it up to the MT do do what they feel best with that money - it's not for me to say others can't enjoy a service just because I don't want to. If I weren't happy to have part of my membership fee spent on a particular activity then I'd either keep my money or raise my concern at the agm.
Make sense?
Sure does Nick.
Benefits of the DSC are down to the individual to use or not, as is the decision to be a member or not.
I enjoy the benefit of the DSC putting on a race series for me to participate in.
IMHO, there is no cost to become involved in the DD series that is levied by the DSC, you pay your money and enjoy the ride.
On balance I'd like to think everyone gets a pretty good deal, DSC, DUK, DD racers, New Era etc...
Some chunks of wisdom in this thread....
I think he means dinner dance trophies, and there were race shirts for the "Does your boss know" awards. :-)
The DD trophies handed out I can understand being attributed to DD. But not the posting etc awards, they should have been allocated to something other than the race series.
But that's a minor accounting issue. I guess the major point is not necessarily that the money has been spent. It's that people aren't aware of where their money is being spent and take issue with being told that money isn't being spent on something only to find it in the accounts later.
But hey, I've done this to death and I'm not trying to wake a slumbering beast.
The DD trophies handed out I can understand being attributed to DD. But not the posting etc awards, they should have been allocated to something other than the race series.
But that's a minor accounting issue. I guess the major point is not necessarily that the money has been spent. It's that people aren't aware of where their money is being spent and take issue with being told that money isn't being spent on something only to find it in the accounts later.
But hey, I've done this to death and I'm not trying to wake a slumbering beast.
But you've hit the nail on the head - I'm happy with the way my £20 is spent, but I don't expect to find people saying that I shouldn't have an opinion (if I wanted one) on a race series organised by the club because none of the money i contribute is being spent on it - when plainly it is.
But you've hit the nail on the head - I'm happy with the way my £20 is spent, but I don't expect to find people saying that I shouldn't have an opinion (if I wanted one) on a race series organised by the club because none of the money i contribute is being spent on it - when plainly it is.
Sorry mate, I haven't said anything to do with that comment. My point has been about being told your money is being spent on one thing, only to find out differently in the accounts ...
But to address what you've said, I think involvement from the non-DD participating DSC members is good, but I also am of the belief that the people spending their £1000's on racing deserve more say on matters that directly affect them and their wallets.
Again, just my take :)
John - I'm not sure I understood your point.
If you don't (didn't) gain anything from running the series, then why would you do it? Perhaps you thought you would, but haven't? Perhaps its a charitable act?
What "personal gain" do you seek from any of your DSC activities? What have you gained from running the trackdays?
Tim
The 'personal gain' I get from running the trackday is the huge amount of grins spread throughout the paddock-priceless-the downside is the 6/9months work beforehand to make it happen-well worth it.
My main point was really picking up something Dom had said earlier about the RC being in it for personal gain-I wasn't sure what gain he thought there was to be had? I certainly didn't expect any gain-and I've been involved since it was just a drunken idea...........
John
But you've hit the nail on the head - I'm happy with the way my £20 is spent, but I don't expect to find people saying that I shouldn't have an opinion (if I wanted one) on a race series organised by the club because none of the money i contribute is being spent on it - when plainly it is.
who is saying that.?
who is saying that.?
you have u2u
Totally agree with you martin, I've always maintained that every member should be listened to and have their ideas/concerns considered regarding the racing. As for voting rights... not sure on that one... probably the educated opinions lie almost entirely within the paddock, therefor leaving a vote about the rules (for example) open to the membership could easily yield the wrong result.
The other bit you're talking about is transparency - I'm with you on that one too.
Chris Wood
25-Sep-2006, 17:01
We seemed to have steered away from DD into a 'how does the club spend it's money debate?'
My memory is clear.
Stickers - for DSC and DD racers.
Set up costs for DD - to get the series going.
DUK truck - at Brands.
As long as all items were part of the DSC core activities, that's the elected MT's role to decide on who/how and what the money is spent on.
Fair deal all round.
Totally agree with you martin, I've always maintained that every member should be listened to and have their ideas/concerns considered regarding the racing. As for voting rights... not sure on that one... probably the educated opinions lie almost entirely within the paddock, therefor leaving a vote about the rules (for example) open to the membership could easily yield the wrong result.
The other bit you're talking about is transparency - I'm with you on that one too.
Nick - I have no interest in voting or the rules - it's not my place and I'm a dumbo who wouldn't understand them anyway, but transparancy - that's important.
Totally agree with you martin, I've always maintained that every member should be listened to and have their ideas/concerns considered regarding the racing. As for voting rights... not sure on that one... probably the educated opinions lie almost entirely within the paddock, therefor leaving a vote about the rules (for example) open to the membership could easily yield the wrong result.
The other bit you're talking about is transparency - I'm with you on that one too.
wow its all making sense..................
We seemed to have steered away from DD into a 'how does the club spend it's money debate?'
My memory is clear.
Stickers - for DSC and DD racers.
Set up costs for DD - to get the series going.
DUK truck - at Brands.
As long as all items were part of the DSC core activities, that's the elected MT's role to decide on who/how and what the money is spent on.
Fair deal all round.
Exactamundo as I recall, this got done to death at the AGM.
DSC spends money on DSC activities shock, horror, probe................
The MT is mandated to splash the cash by the membership.
Don't try to explain it only makes matters worse is due another airing??
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...364565,00.html
If you can't be bothered to read the whole article this seems to sum things up pretty well
"the essence of democracy is the acceptance that you can’t always have it all your own way. And the test of your commitment to pluralism is accepting the right of others to differ"
Think on,
Ray.
Ray, you talking sense like that completely spoils a good discussion/argument.......:lol:
John
Well I don't believe that Ray was referring to anything I mentioned in my posts above. He mentions nothing of being told one thing only to find out in the accounts the exact opposite. I hope you can see the difference and also that I'm not debating the merits of spending the money, merely the fact that there was a distinct lack of transparency about this at a time when it was a sensitive issue. I think it's important that this point isn't glossed over.
Did I mention I dived the Thistlegorm on Thursday - it was a lovely 42 degree's celsius day and great visibility on the wreck even at 31m which was good because there were tuna around and other interesting fish :)
It was very pretty :D
Not to mention drifiting up and down in the 3m chop on the surface in a strong current on my back - it was great :D
Phew,
friends again at last.....(tee-hee)
I thought my first trip to a DD round this year (i.e. Cadwell in just over a week's time) was gonna mean 'spittle' protectors all round for my camera gear.
See you soon you racer dudes......Gonna hone my skills a bit for yers all at Brands BSB this wekeend.
Might have some interesting news too if my meeting with Dorna on Saturday morning goes well (now that's got you all thinking I bet).......
Well so far everones behaved themselves and we hav'nt had a slacking match thats got to be a first:lol:
A long long time ago when all this DDing was in its infancy I remember thinking Wow members of this club would get the oppotunity to go out and race each other on track, no that (correct me if im wrong)was a first . The first race at Cadwell saw "what you bring, you race" all sorts of bikes put together basically by the individual members . Some bikes were more profesional than other ,it did'nt matter, everone was there for the same reason,to get out on track and RACE. A lot of work was then put into "developing" a better bike, as we saw the "Profesional" "factory bikes tearing of down the field ahead of our own DSC members all out for the reason of racing fellow club member. So more money and effort was needed to keep competitive, not by one but by all. I don't think any one can say racing is not expensive even in our own club series, I was very suprised when I found out how much each race weekend was for the riders let alone the back up teams. Its fair to say that if you are prepared to go out and do this sort of thing then you should be committed to a certain amount of "expenses" Some people will no doubt spend more than others in there pursuit of competition and enjoyment.
As for the "should the DD go out to other's" What came first the chicken or the egg, well in this case the DSC came first and it was the DSC that brought the DD to fruittion, I personally think the DD is the Racing section of the DSC and should remain so. Long live the DesmoDue Long live Freedom and Democracy and if any one objects Ill shoot the ******s :lol: 4D
The 'personal gain' I get from running the trackday is the huge amount of grins spread throughout the paddock-priceless-the downside is the 6/9months work beforehand to make it happen-well worth it.
My main point was really picking up something Dom had said earlier about the RC being in it for personal gain-I wasn't sure what gain he thought there was to be had? I certainly didn't expect any gain-and I've been involved since it was just a drunken idea...........
John
What?
Where did I say that? or anything like it?
Please quote me John :mad:
I was just getting to grips with how entertaining this DD thing is.................and the thread was moved!:lol:
Possibly the worst thing to have occured in the club!
888heaven
25-Sep-2006, 21:14
[QUOTE=Fordie]
A long long time ago when all this DDing was in its infancy I remember thinking Wow members of this club would get the oppotunity to go out and race each other on track, no that (correct me if im wrong)was a first . The first race at Cadwell saw "what you bring, you race" all sorts of bikes put together basically by the individual members . Some bikes were more profesional than other ,it did'nt matter, everone was there for the same reason,to get out on track and RACE. A lot of work was then put into "developing" a better bike, as we saw the "Profesional" "factory bikes tearing of down the field ahead of our own DSC members all out for the reason of racing fellow club member. So more money and effort was needed to keep competitive, not by one but by all. I don't think any one can say racing is not expensive even in our own club series,
5p's worth from an ordinary member.
I thought along with a lot of other members, that this extension of the Clubs riding outlets was intended for the entry and enjoyment of all, yes no ones naive in thinking racing is going to be cheap but this series was set up so that it was kept to the bare esentials.
Developing better bikes more money etc has already started to make it elitest and out of reach for more people than it was when it was started.
So if a % of riders decide this year say that they want to spend X more on their bikes to stay competitive where will it end.
we all know a rich persons track day.
I dont mind if the club has spent a percentage setting it up and funding promotion any more than funding other activities that I have'nt had chance to partake in either due to time or distance,but that does'nt mean participating members have the right to price it out of range of ordinary members.
If you cant win the DD on a bog standard unmodified bike you should'nt be allowed to throw money at it.
ian
If you cant win the DD on a bog standard unmodified bike you should'nt be allowed to throw money at it.
ian
That's lucky for me then ;)
888heaven
25-Sep-2006, 21:21
That's lucky for me then ;)
I heard yours was Dog standard
antonye
25-Sep-2006, 21:25
If you cant win the DD on a bog standard unmodified bike you should'nt be allowed to throw money at it.
If you read the rules there's not much that you really can throw money at, and if you do then the power gain is so little that you'd be better off learning to ride it better ... which was the whole point of the series in the first place!
I heard yours was Dog standard
It's just got an Ohlins rear shock, K&N filter and Termi silencers.
That's it! :o
The shock is a luxury really (Chass just took it off his 916) as I think the standard one was fine.
888heaven, where's your roundel? :) (joke!)
I have to say, your comments have struck a chord with me.
When DD was first touted to me, (I believe at Track Attack 2.5 but my memory can play tricks on me), I was led to believe that it would be for DSC Members, riding essentially unmodified bikes, and that it would be just about the cheapest way to race motorbikes.
DD in reality seems to be fairly close to that ideal, but somehow the usual racing formula that competiveness is directly porportional to expenditure applies. In my naivety, I feel sad that this is the case but I suspect it is unavoidable - unless the rules about modifications were made stricter, of course.
In all other respects, and being largely unaware of any politics that may be going on behind the scenes, I have to say that as a member of DSC, I'm proud of what has been accomplished by the Club and the DD racers/Team Owners. What a fantastic achievement for all concerned.
Rattler
25-Sep-2006, 21:45
888heaven, where's your roundel? :) (joke!)
I have to say, your comments have struck a chord with me.
When DD was first touted to me, (I believe at Track Attack 2.5 but my memory can play tricks on me), I was led to believe that it would be for DSC Members, riding essentially unmodified bikes, and that it would be just about the cheapest way to race motorbikes.
DD in reality seems to be fairly close to that ideal, but somehow the usual racing formula that competiveness is directly porportional to expenditure applies. In my naivety, I feel sad that this is the case but I suspect it is unavoidable - unless the rules about modifications were made stricter, of course.
In truth a DD race can be won by a rider on a virtually standard bike, with only minimal modifications for race compliance. Domski's efforts are evidence of this as he rode a late Monster that had race cans and race airfilter performance mods only. And the fact that he was beaten in one race this year by Glen Graham on an older, nearer stock 620ss is further proof.
You can spend lots of money on the bike, fairings, PC111's, dyno time, trick suspension, etc, etc, but the best riders will run at the front whatever they are on.
The rules on modifications are pretty restrictive and ensure that; In DD, a slow rider on a fast bike will always be beaten by a fast rider on a slow bike.
Tim
...he was beaten in one race this year by Glen Graham on an older, nearer stock 620ss...
I wish you lot would stop reminding me about that!! :lol:
Glenn's even more stock bike does have pipes, filter AND a chip(?) also re-valved forks which mine doesn't. Dunno what shock he's got though, it looks standard :)
He just rode better at the last corner - git ;)
I agree though, a good rider on a stock bike, will beat a slow rider on a fast bike. There are some seriously fast bikes out there, I'm worried what will happen when a quick rider jumps on one!! :o
skidlids
25-Sep-2006, 22:13
Costs
Many a class B bike is out on the grid for less than £2500, mine included. Some parts on what are now 10,11 or 12 year old bikes are no longer serviceable, namely standard shocks and brake master cylinders, add to that worn discs and there is little choice but to spend some cash on improving the bike. For many this translates into fitting bits off larer models, like a 750/900SSie shock, 916 master-cylinder and discs off anything from the late 90s early 00s. All of which can be had secondhand for a reasonable cost from either fleabay or breakers.
Then all you need to do is learn to ride them like Fil2 does or Chris Wood, Paynep, Grif64 or Andys 900SS to name a few others. And unlike last year you don't need to pull the engine apart straight away to fit a 675cc bigbore kit.
All this still translates to a very chreap entry into racing and with race meetings costing me in the region of £300 a time for entries fuel etc you can take part in 7 UK meetings for a tad over £2200 allowing for the purchase of a new set of Pirelli Diablos.
In case people haven't noticed their is a large proportion of DD racers that do not come onto the board many of whom just want to race and are happy that the DSC has given them the oppotunity to do so.
When I sent out a survey to class B entrants a couple of months ago 22 said they intended to be back for more in 2007 along with 3 maybes, which accounts for the 25 replies that I had and out of those that didn't reply I suspect 3 of them will be wanting to come back.
For many 2007 will be their third year of racing and as the cost of the bike has been dealt with, a years racing in DD works out quite cheap.
Dom & Tim
I do accept that the best rider is likely to win, whatever he/she rides, within a given set of rules, provided the difference in ability is enough to overcome the shortcomings of his bike. I also accept that a slow rider will most likely not win, no matter how much is spent, given the modification restrictions in place in DD.
I also note that in the examples quoted - Dom and Graham - the bikes are modified, performance-wise, compared to stock bikes. I've seen the amount of money quoted on the message board as having been spent on bikes by some of the competitors. My over-all impression is that a good deal of money (sometimes very serious amounts) is being spent on what is a an entry-level, grass-roots club series. Further, if you are a "middle of the road" sort of racer, you are not only going to be beaten by riders with more ability (fair enough), you may not be competitive compared to other MotR racers with more money than you (which runs against the original DD ethos as I understand it).
Still, I am somewhat re-assured that the riders themselves do not seem to feel that this is an issue.
Anyway, I'm only jealous of the DDers cos the original series was going to be for 750's (I've got one of those and was half-toying with the idea of having a go - I can't afford another whole bike).
In case people haven't noticed their is a large proportion of DD racers that do not come onto the board many of whom just want to race and are happy that the DSC has given them the oppotunity to do so.
I disagree (unsurprisingly for me).
I think your statement is wildly inaccurate. Sorry Kev.
I think the majority of DD rider DO visit the forum. It's largely made up of the active forum users in my opinion. Here's the more regular forum users...
Tony PERRIN
Tony HATHAWAY
Tim PRITCHARD
Tim HOWARD
Richard THIRKETTLE
Phillip HUNTLEY
Phillip CLARKE
Phil HARRIS
Paul PAYNE
Paul MARTIN
Nick BOUSTEAD
Murray BOWN
Mike ATACK
Michael WINTER
Lucie STONE
Kyle HINTON
Kyle BENNETT
Kevin ELLIS
John WILLIAMS
Ian LEAH
Grahame BUTCHER
Graeme MELVILL
Glyn HINSLEY
Glenn GRAHAM
Franco NISCO
Eric HOWE
Doug CLEMMANS
Dominic CLEGG
Dominic CANN
David PRATT
Chris WOOD
Antony ESPINDOLA
Antoine JOSSERAND
Andy ROBERTS
Andrew SHEPPARD
Andrew GRIFFITHS
Andrew CHALLIS
Alastair BISSON
That's 38 by my maths. I'd say that's quite a majority.
Am I wrong? :confused:
Kev, thanks for your input. I am a little unclear where the line is drawn between replacing worn-out original parts with equivalent modern gear and what represents a performance upgrade. I guess that is sometimes a grey area.
I appreciate the time spent bringing me up to speed with all this.
When I sent out a survey to class B entrants a couple of months ago 22 said they intended to be back for more in 2007 along with 3 maybes, which accounts for the 25 replies that I had and out of those that didn't reply I suspect 3 of them will be wanting to come back.
That will be great. Fingers crossed!
:)
My over-all impression is that a good deal of money (sometimes very serious amounts) is being spent on what is a an entry-level, grass-roots club series. Further, if you are a "middle of the road" sort of racer, you are not only going to be beaten by riders with more ability (fair enough), you may not be competitive compared to other MotR racers with more money than you (which runs against the original DD ethos as I understand it).
That's a fair statement.
I would think that the 583 comes more down to rider ability and the bikes are a whole lot cheaper too. I can't see people spending anywhere near the sort of cash that an 'affluent' 620 rider would. You're just not going to get the same gains (I wouldn't think).
Unfortunately, all racing is incredibly expensive. Whilst the running costs of DD are low, the initial outlay is much higher than other classes. You can buy a half decent 600 supersport bike for £5000, but that will probably cost £800+ a weekend and eat tyres. The other end of the spectrum (to which DD is closer) would be CB500's - bought for £300-£1200 and cost the same to run as DD. Now that is cheap racing.
The other side to racing, at any level, is that even if the rules don't permit it, people will always find ways to spend money or cheat or try to gain some sort of advantage. It happens in virtually every class, that's just human nature I suppose?
Class B does provide great value for money.
Class A will always be tougher and more expensive, as the bikes are more expensive and the faster riders race in it.
Both classes are incredibly good fun and the riders, teams and spectators on race day are a great bunch of people. That is what makes DD different/special.
I know one of the maybes who is watching all this very closely ;)
As long as he's not one of them tarts who hangs about in hairdressers Lambos ;)
:D
It might be ;) anyway the hairdressers ones are yellow, proper ones are 'angry' Black !
:bouncy:
Dom if I missquoted you earlier I apologise-I did read that statement somewhere(cannot find it now-doh) but perhaps missatributed it to you.
John
skidlids
25-Sep-2006, 22:57
Firsty a large proportion and majority are not the same thing and some on the list are far more regular than others :) I was mainly thinking in terms of Class B where I would consider a third of the field aren't regular posters with some never posting.
I agree the Majority off DD riders have posted on the board, but take this thread for example over 100 posts so far of which 12 or so current DD riders have had a input and a few Ex DD riders, so about 1/3 the DD field.
If anybody is thinking of entering DD in 2007 it may be worth seeking out one of the DD regulars that doesn't post here and ask their opinion it may help you make the decision to join in.
Loz as far as upgrades go
take the items I listed.
Discs ---- have to be Ducati OE parts so little choice there
Shock --- Budget upgrade is a SSie one and at the other end of the scale there are the Ohlins, WPs, Penskes, Nitrons etc
Master-cylinders--- Budget is a 916 item or GSXR (in Zimbos case), top end is a AP Radial and just down on that a Brembo Radial.
Some people have even splashed out on a Billet Brembo Caliper, but this can often be offset by not upgrading to twin discs
andys 900ss
25-Sep-2006, 22:59
Been watching this thread...
This series is extreemly cheap to do and a testament to the rules and bikes chosen. My bike has come in at under £2k and its won a race!!
I spent 15yrs racing battery model cars right upto world level and we used to spend a fortune on those little 'toy' cars. Tyres every-other race (6xqualifying races, plus final), motor every meeting, batteries every month or so.......
Also to keep on context, I spent £800 on 'upgrading' the suspension on my R1.... I have spent £9.99 + about £60 on the 583 (fork oil & used rear shock).
It can be done very cheaply and, yes, like all bikes you can 'bling' them up...
Andy
skidlids
25-Sep-2006, 23:02
Been watching this thread...
This series is extreemly cheap to do and a testament to the rules and bikes chosen. My bike has come in at under £2k and its won a race!!
Andy
Remind me again where did you find that cheap race wining bike :)
andys 900ss
25-Sep-2006, 23:05
Remind me again where did you find that cheap race wining bike :)
This very kind sir, indeed..... :)
From a chat at the BMF to tracking in a few weeks or so..... I really enjoy DD, roll on Cadders and next year... and if your thinking about it... DO IT!!! you'll only regret it if you don't...
Andy
Re Loz's comments... It's my belief that you can throw as much or as little money at a bike as you want, but there's not a lot of advantage to be gained by it, most of that would be experimental.
I run a '02 m620, and here's what I've done to it and why:
1) Raised the pegs - the standard pegs were decking out on the warm up lap on a february track day! Cost? I think that cost something in the region on £80.
2) Fit high level pipes - same ground clearance issues as the pegs. Got som second hand Sil's for £240.
3) High flow air filter - don't know why, pete swapped it!
4) Clip-on bars - the standard ones were too high and killing my arms. Cost £80.
5) Twin disc conversion - the single disc was capable enough but didn't give me any feedback. I find the twin setup much better for confidence. If I remember right it cost me something like £60.
That's it, the rest of the bike is bog standard. I was fairly new even to trackdays before I jumped into DD and ended up being able to get 5th in the final table last year and a 3rd place at Brands this year - because I've concentrated my efforts on learning to ride the thing rather than rely on tuning it!
The only riders who will befit from throwing money at their bikes are those who already know how to ride them - and most of the grid, especially me, have still got a lot to learn.
Tonio600
25-Sep-2006, 23:41
I wish you lot would stop reminding me about that!! :lol:
You wish :lol:
Glenn's even more stock bike does have pipes, filter AND a chip(?) re-valved forks which mine doesn't.
re-springed forks, not revalved :D ;) I don't remember about the chip though, it may it may not...
Dunno what shock he's got though, it looks standard
It IS standard.
He just rode better at the last corner - git
I agree though, a good rider on a stock bike, will beat a slow rider on a fast bike. There are some seriously fast bikes out there, I'm worried what will happen when a quick rider jumps on one!!
Lucky you he can't keep it longer... ;)
Lucky you he can't keep it longer... ;)
Absolutely, I'm a very lucky person :devil:
Dominic Clegg
26-Sep-2006, 04:00
just thought id get in here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
at brands last year was the first time i meet you all and just by having the truck there made my day and made me join so you got me by spending that money hehehehe.
dd is cheep and iv leant so much and im so much more confident in my riding for doing it. iv not road raced before and came from doing trackdays its been so much fun lean how to push a bike hard and find time on a track as i never used to do that when i went on trackdays.
i love dd its been amazing you can not believe how much im looking forward to cadwell see you all there.
Wow...Still an excellent thread.
Domski and me agree absolutely for once. To summarise my views:
DSC should run DD and work to continually improve it for the benefit of riders and the membership.
DSC members to have a say, or a vote, on everything that goes on in in the paddock and mainly (or only) affects the riders and sponsors? A big fat NO! Members should vote for someone they want to run and administer the DD series and then trust that person to work with the riders and sponsors on those decisions.
A seperate mechanism for DSC members to air their thoughts and views on how DD could evolve, put forward suggestions and opinions and then have them considered by a small decision making group consisting of the MT race bloke, some riders and a couple of others (maybe just collecting all the suggestions into a big pile at the end of each season and deciding which could be followed up) a big fat YES
Ya see, all people really want is a sense that even if they can't race for whatever reason, they can really identify with DD as their series run by their club. They can get actively involved in developing the future of DD even if they have no immediate involvement in the paddock or can't get to any of the races and it all starts to lead to a sense of belonging.
I can't really describe it, but you know how people who passionately follow a Football club feel like the team really belongs to them? They'll never trot out on the park themselves but that doesn't stop them feeling personally involved in everything that the players do. It's like Bayliss is a top bloke because despite being a better rider than all of us lot put together he still makes you feel like you matter.
That's what I would like every member of the DSC to feel about DD and the riders.
All the DD racers I've met individually are also top blokes (and girls), but collectively there can be a hint of "it's nothing to do with you pal...you're not a racer" creeping in from time to time which makes people feel snubbed. It's not a dig at DD or any individual but I think that it's this collective vibe that DD sometimes needs to guard against
psychlist
26-Sep-2006, 10:22
Wow...Still an excellent thread.
Domski and me agree absolutely for once. To summarise my views:
DSC should run DD and work to continually improve it for the benefit of riders and the membership.
DSC members to have a say, or a vote, on everything that goes on in in the paddock and mainly (or only) affects the riders and sponsors? A big fat NO! Members should vote for someone they want to run and administer the DD series and then trust that person to work with the riders and sponsors on those decisions.
A seperate mechanism for DSC members to air their thoughts and views on how DD could evolve, put forward suggestions and opinions and then have them considered by a small decision making group consisting of the MT race bloke, some riders and a couple of others (maybe just collecting all the suggestions into a big pile at the end of each season and deciding which could be followed up) a big fat YES
Ya see, all people really want is a sense that even if they can't race for whatever reason, they can really identify with DD as their series run by their club. They can get actively involved in developing the future of DD even if they have no immediate involvement in the paddock or can't get to any of the races and it all starts to lead to a sense of belonging.
I can't really describe it, but you know how people who passionately follow a Football club feel like the team really belongs to them? They'll never trot out on the park themselves but that doesn't stop them feeling personally involved in everything that the players do. It's like Bayliss is a top bloke because despite being a better rider than all of us lot put together he still makes you feel like you matter.
That's what I would like every member of the DSC to feel about DD and the riders.
All the DD racers I've met individually are also top blokes (and girls), but collectively there can be a hint of "it's nothing to do with you pal...you're not a racer" creeping in from time to time which makes people feel snubbed. It's not a dig at DD or any individual but I think that it's this collective vibe that DD sometimes needs to guard against
An excellent post in an excellent thread ;)
Henners
26-Sep-2006, 13:26
The only thing I would add is:-
Now is the time for the MT to consider how they got into this situation, to read again closely Rattlers words from the start of this thread, learn the mistakes and ensure it can't happen again in 2007 or beyond. If the club does that and operates in a really transparent way which makes all involved feel part of the series, part of the club and especially in the case of Knight Racing both valued and respected, then many critics of them, like myself, will happily support the changes.
Class A will always be tougher and more expensive, as the bikes are more expensive and the faster riders race in it.
Really? I notice you used faster, not better!:lol:
Really? I notice you used faster, not better!:lol:
That's right ;)
They're only faster coz they're on faster bikes too of course :frog:
Paul James
27-Sep-2006, 15:15
Given the level of interest shown to this thread by DD entrants, general DSC members and non members alike I've added below the contents of an email I circulated to the riders earlier in the month. Just a few observations and suggestions for 2007 which I have to say I personally believe will be more likely to succeed now that certain issues have been resolved and others are being considered well in advance of the season start.
Most of the riders seem happier to go the New Era route now than when we started down that course at the start of the season, makes it much more straightforward for whoever runs the series for us next year. This year we kept getting asked to check out the other available race clubs in the UK but I think we've reached a consensus having gone through that process that New Era can offer us a workable season long package. We've already confirmed that in a meeting with Jim Parker who is very keen to work with the DSC on this next year. Chopping from race club to race club throughout the season brings its own obvious problems along with additional cost for the riders of becoming members of each club.
I see 2007 as being the best year yet for DD; we’ve got the 2006 survey results to work with so all the riders have had a chance to offer their views on a wide range of topics, to the point where they were asked to submit any questions they wanted included. We have the two first years to learn from, both the mistakes and the successes, the latter can all too easily be forgotten if we aren’t careful here.
The more everybody pitches in to help in a workable and harmonious fashion the better it will be for all IMHO. Total harmony will never exist but I truly believe that publicly propagating arguments on the message boards does more harm than good in the long term. I can’t see whoever runs the series always agreeing with the views of every rider, it just won’t happen, it’s human nature but a better way of resolving issues needs to be found.
The riders need to support whoever runs DD as it will be a big responsibility and a fair amount of administration however much it gets simplified for 2007.
I truly hope it all works out well and that at least some of what we’ve tried to achieve in 2006 will help 2007 to be the best season yet !!!! I’ve already stated that I will be stepping down from the RC prior to the 2007 season start due to increased work commitments but will be helping where possible to get the outstanding issues resolved.
My earlier email to the riders..............................
DD Review and looking forward
Post the Snetterton protest.
The technical regulations and protest rules have been tested and the complaining behind the scenes about the lack of potential rule enforcement for the series has irrefutably been answered for all time.
It is clear that the level of performance of a 620 DD bike prepared within the technical rules, ridden competently can produce the results that Dominic Cann has achieved this year. This can be retrospectively applied to the results of Geoff Spencer and to anyone in the future.
The element of doubt has been seriously reduced to the very real benefit of the series, leaving this sort of thing to fester would have eventually ripped the series apart.
Dominic and Chass have been cleared of any infringement and their championship can never be questioned, we know that this would not have been the case if the bike had not been checked, the doubts harboured by some would have festered and carried over to next year.
Dominic and Chass have exhibited a fine example of what can be achieved with determination, good preparation, consistent riding and self confidence. WELL DONE !!!!!!.
Phil Huntley put on another great show of season long consistent riding to take a well deserved win in Class B.
The people that run DD next year will have a few more stakes in the ground to start with than we had this year, the series is growing, there have been inevitable growing pains and a steep 2 year learning curve.
I’ve sent a report on what needs to be covered off administration wise to the DSC Management Team for consideration.
Here are some of my thoughts for the riders and organisers to consider:
• Should the series be run next year in line with the original ethos of providing current DSC members the opportunity to try racing in a club focused championship?, Or do you want to open it out to people outside the Ducati Sporting Club ?
If the former then it will be difficult to achieve the separate grids but the general consensus to date is that most have grown used to the mixed grids and are showing a preference to those over being stuck in with CB’s or Hornets. If the latter there is still no guarantee that enough will enter to consistently fill 2 grids, the downside of the latter option could be that the people the series was intended for could lose out to people recruited from outside the club to take part.
Maybe you could consider looking at Class A and Class B slightly differently; retaining Class B for the true novices but allowing a little more entrant experience leeway for Class A entrants ?
I’d like to suggest that some in depth discussion goes on about the fundamental format for next year. The survey questions were aimed at addressing some of the issues and the invaluable feedback will be considered at that time.
• We started off this season before everything was properly resolved, riders reps, tyre deal, race formats and dates etc. etc.
If nothing else I’d like to think that after Cadwell and into the last quarter of 2006 some thought can be given to sorting a number of the basic issues prior to the 2007 season start. These have been outlined to the MT in my report.
My gut feeling is that New Era, despite some shortcomings, are the way to go again for 2007, they will continue to offer the type of circuit the riders seem to prefer; Cadwell, Brands, Oulton, Snetterton, Donington etc.
Having met with Jim Parker again recently I can confirm that he is very happy to continue with facilitating the series for us and feels that with a bit of fine tuning the continued New Era/DSC relationship will be beneficial to all. Discussion of the option to race at Club meetings rather than at Superclub level took place during the meeting. As details of what some of the other series we shared meetings with this year will be doing in 2007 have yet to be finalised it was thought best to decide later which to run with, it is likely to be a combination of the two. In essence we have an agreement to work together in 2007 with a 6 or 7 round championship at the best UK circuits.
Being involved with New Era gave very useful assistance with the Assen license this year, the insurance was obtained at a reduced rate for us by Jim Parker in his ACU capacity, I doubt that we would have run the Assen round without assistance from the ACU. If the consensus is that we look to race at Assen in 2007 their assistance will again be vital, it was a great success in 2006 and the Dutch club are looking forward to welcoming the DSC Desmo Due enthusiasts again next year..
I have suggested that entries need to be in by the end of December so that whoever has the job of sorting it all out has a good idea of numbers involved.
The riders representatives (if you choose to continue with them) can easily be sorted by mid January.
When inviting people to apply as a riders rep. do search the full DSC membership, you never know who has been considering getting involved in helping out. It could be someone who has been to a few meetings helping out a rider for instance, or just watching the series and looking for a way of having input. If you subsequently just have riders applying at least you’ve done all possible to include others from within the club.
• Of vital importance is to line up all the people who can add value to the series in any way shape or form and get them in a room together to discuss what they can bring to the party early on in the proceedings.
Write it down and agree responsibilities for whoever has offered to cover each aspect of the series management/promotion.
You have some awesome people among you and I only wish I’d been able to pull it all together quicker and better this year. It has been a tough year and not at all perfect and I don’t mind admitting it, please learn from the mistakes and don’t make the same ones next year.
We have had some great success this year, the DD series has gone from strength to strength, a number of real issues sorted quickly to the majorities preference, the trip to Assen was a highlight for many, a number of significant and high profile guest riders and magazine articles, and the continuing improvement of the DD racers in general, posting better lap times and having a worthy champion in each class.
The DSC run Desmo Due series will prosper, we already have people showing an interest for next year, the DD riders and race teams have put together some stunning bikes and ridden some cracking races, it hasn’t gone unnoticed by others.
It is a unique series; I’m not aware of any other bike club doing this, so make the most of it, get the decision making done as early as possible and go into 2007 with a positive outlook for the year ahead.
Sincere regards,
Paul James
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