888 questions ... [Archive] - Ducati Sporting Club UK

07-Oct-2006, 11:53

I'm not going to be able to afford another bike until maybe next year, and the priority goes to racing but I've always liked the 888 ... so, a few questions ... you guys love these things so hopefully you won't mind having a chat about them :)

Price range? I'd prefer an SP of some description (yes I'm a snob, but after owning the 998R I like the special ones :) )

What are the pro's and cons of the SP range compared to your standard 888? Service intervals, ease of maintenance, anything particular to each model ...

Availability of track parts and normal crash damage type parts etc? If I get one, it will be (ab)used on track days etc so there's always the possibility of it going down the road ..

Anything else I need to know?

Thanks in advance for your time :)

Cheers,

TP

Jools

07-Oct-2006, 12:14

I got a strada on purpose, because I know I'm not the best when it comes to keeping bikes in pristine nick and by my reckoning an SP deserves a better owner than I'm likely to be.

The SP's are like any SP or R version...higher state of tune and therefore just that little bit mor pernicketty about service intervals. I change the oil and filters every 3K on my strada, if it was an SP I might think about getting it looked at by Nelly every 3K - praps not a service as such but a once over.

SP's had Ohlins forks as well up until the SP5 which used high spec Showas, arguably because of fork seal problems on the Ohlins.

As far as spares are concerned the good old Ducati philosophy of evolving everything rather than radical redesign means that mechanical spares are no problem - heaps of stuff from other later models will fit. Even if the engine goes pop, an ST4 or Monster S4, or even a 996 unit from an ST4S is almost a straight bolt in. Brakes are basically goldline Brembos but need upgrading with a better master cylinder because they're prone to fade with heavy use (and I have the underpants to prove it).

Where you will have problems is sourcing body panels, best take the originals straight off and store them somewhere safe. You can get trackday stuff from Ricambi Weiss or QB Carbon. QB are more expensive than Ricambi but do carbon fairings (bit OTT) or a self colured GRP set. The GRP set is what I'm going to fit ASAP because they don't show up stone chips.

The riding experience is what most people love about them. They're very short stroke motors so they love to be revved (for a twin that is), anywhere above 7K and if you've got an open airbox the induction snarl is orgasmic. They produce just on 100 bhp or a few more on an SP 110-115 perhaps so they're not the fastes thing on the planet by todays standard but more than enough to scare yourself.

The handling is what I love about them, they don't respond well to genteel riding, you have to take them by the scruff of the neck and show them who is in charge. The harder you ride them the better it gets :eek:

I reckon if a modern Jap bike was a Lotus Elise the 888 would be a snarling, spitting TVR (but more reliable)

Jools

07-Oct-2006, 12:52

Oh yeah...prices.

Perhaps £3.5 for a bargain strada, more like 4-5K for a nice tidy one. Add between 2-3K for an SP (most I've seen have been upwards of 7K).

Oh yes, and it seems that all 888's are becoming very cool and sought after at the moment, maybe this fashion will pass but at the moment prices are on the up.

Go on...you know you want one...heres mine before the GP billets, proper screen, carbon mudguard and high level carbon zorsts went on

Sorry about the fat bloke spoiling the pic

loony888

07-Oct-2006, 13:38

i too own a strada, bought mine over an sp mainly cos i knew i wanted to mod it and didn't want to ruin a genuine sp. the cams are a bit of a waste on the sp, they make peak hp after redline ferchrissakes!! the twin injectors are there for homologation only and (allegedly) aren't needed on the road. bear in mind though, if we rode what we needed and not what was cool we would all be riding ER5's. Jools is spot on, bodywork and bars are the only real headache, most other stuff can be used from another model. i've had 7 dukes and my 888 is definitely my fave, the riding position and the aggressive style required to get the best of it, the way the motor makes power, the looks and the way most people don't even know what it is, they're all reasons i love it. there's a quote from a road test that says "ride it once and you may not buy one, ride it twice and you'll never sell it." a bit of an aquired taste, but well worth it.

jgriff

07-Oct-2006, 13:42

Better riding position than a 998. Not going to have as much grunt as your 998R, but there is something special about them.

Ains.

07-Oct-2006, 13:43

Yep TP, agree with all that Jools has put above.
Prices roughly:

Early 851 1.8k upward
Late 851 (has the 888 bodywork with 851 stickers) 3.5k
888 strada 4-5k
888SP2-3 5-6k
888SP4 7-9k
888SP5 7-8k
888SP4S Cherching

They are going up in price.
Strada is the better road/all round bike. SP is nowt below 4krpm, a bang at 6k, bigger bang at 8k, and stupid by 10k.
I wouldn't get an SP unless you're going to look after it as the only ones a round now tend to be mint condition and fetching loadsa dosh. For instance a US modded SP4 went for about $26k, but it was spesh mind. The top end ones are going for basically what the buyer will pay to get one.
With a little effort a Strada can be made as quick as an SP. Without the layout of an SP so is a better bet. GazB's 851/916 is proof. The usual stuff, filter, zorst, chip.
Gofasterbitz are common enough, but as Jools said take the original bodywork off and stick GRP on for track work. Track day damage as long as the bike doesn't flip are panels, zorst casing, indicators, bar ends and scuffed leavers. Yup I threw the SP4S up the track at Cadwell in 2003 - I cried.
The fairing to frame supports are cack and need to be beefed up and fit a bigger brake master cylinder. That'll solve most of the brake problems.

Oh, and a few years ago Mark Forsyth in finishing off an article about the 888 said, the 888 is the biking equivalent of the Ferrari 250GTO, and that dear reader is why you want one.

Ains.

beancounter

07-Oct-2006, 13:52

What Jools said....

If you fancy a little go on an SP3 or SP4 before winter sets in, have a pootle up to Milton Keynes (why else would you want to) and try mine (especially now the 4 is fixed).

BC

beancounter

07-Oct-2006, 14:10

Oh by the way...as much as I love my 888's I much prefer my 996SPS in every respect - looks, performance, handling, the lot. They're wonderful bikes and much under-rated (imo) - have you considered an SPS Tony? Similar price to 888 SP's and perhaps a bit more suitable for track use?

BC

weeveetwin

07-Oct-2006, 14:41

Up until an hour ago (!) I owned both an 888 Strada and an SP4.

Back-to-back riding shows up their differences quite starkly. The SP is spitting and growling the whole time it's moving (animalistic almost) - whereas the Strada feels quite tame by comparison and more composed. Maybe it's to do with the Strada's single injectors and more civilised chip/cam timing, but even with loud cans fitted it can't quite recreate the manic snarl of the SP. (I hate to say it, but after dismounting from the SP and swapping onto the Strada, I'd quickly become bored with its monotone blat, blat blat).

Gearing on the Strada is more sensible for the street. Bottom gear is lower, and top gear is higher than the SP equivalent. In fact, the SP's sixth gear equates exactly with the Strada's fifth. This makes the SP feel more hurried at higher cruising speeds - and the Strada much more relaxed. The SP gearbox would be preferable for the track though.

Despite the SP having fully-floating front brakes, I found those on the Strada to be as good if not better. (This may be more to do with the particular type of pads I had fitted than anything else). The rear brake on my own particular SP works quite well - but the Strada's rear is (traditionally) poor.

Handling? When I first bought my SP4, I found the handling to be way better than my Strada. The bike was far more chuckable, and it was much faster steering. (I've since learned that much of the 'inertia' in this particular Strada's steering is down to the rubbish tyres it's wearing). However, the quoted 30lb difference in weight between these bikes is on the conservative side in my estimation. Difference feels greater. SP seems loads lighter.

All-in-all, on a warm sunny day I'd take the SP out of the garage far more often than I would the Strada. I just love the rawness it oozes. Moreover, having had more bikes than I care to count over the years, I've never ridden anything that turns heads like an SP4. You just can't sneak about on one of these!

Steve

Rob B

07-Oct-2006, 15:32

Tony,

I think Baines have an SP4 in now (or soonish)

Rgds, Rob

07-Oct-2006, 16:18

Thanks Rob, unfortunately I won't be able to do anything about this until at least next year I think. I guess I just wanted to get some info on these things so I can think about these things over winter ...

There's some excellent info in here, thanks everone. I guess if I went down this road I'd go the GRP bodywork and shelve the originals ... I'm even thinking that one of these things would go alright in Sound of Thunder :D Especially if it was a strada with a 996 engine in it or something similar ...

beancounter, thank you very much for your generous offer. I'd love to have a go on one but at the moment I couldn't afford to do anything to it should the worst happen so I'm better off not taking any risks at the moment! Having said that, I may take you up on that in the spring or something when I'll have a better idea of what I'm doing.

I'm leaning towards a strada really, with a few tuning options I suppose. I wouldn't look after an SP - as Freak and Lily will attest, I don't wash bikes very often :D My 996 was well looked after, but dirty. Although I did look after my 998R, but that bike was very special to me.

Has anyone tried to put a testastretta engine in one of these things? Is it too much of a bodge?

What suspension did the strada have? Not too fussed about brakes as I'd probably change them anyway.

07-Oct-2006, 16:20

Weeveetwin, I take it you sold the strada then - not the SP?

weeveetwin

07-Oct-2006, 16:27

Yes, sold the Strada. It's a real beauty, but I no longer have the space to keep it so it had to go. After seeing the look on my face, the chap who took it said he felt guilty buying it!

Oh well, it's gone to a very good home. (Hi Howard!) I expect he'll be joining the DSC soon.

Jasper

07-Oct-2006, 16:35

I agree with pretty much what everyone else has said.The SP definately needs special care,'cos it deserves it!!They(SP's) are definately not the civilized option!!Worth it?Oh YES!!!:)

Jools

07-Oct-2006, 16:39

07-Oct-2006, 16:40

I agree with pretty much what everyone else has said.The SP definately needs special care,'cos it deserves it!!They(SP's) are definately not the civilized option!!Worth it?Oh YES!!!:)

I had a good look at yours at Nelly's once, I must admit it pushed all the right buttons ... I know I could have ridden it at Cadwell on the track days but I think I was better off letting you take it grass tracking between the mountain and Hall Bends right in front of everyone :D

I didn't know whether to go around you or wait to clean up the mess! I'm glad you keep it all together, too pretty a machine to hit that wall.

As usual for me, my heart says SP and my head says strada ... I went with my head for the 996, and my heart for the 998R ... who knows which way I'll go next time - IF I do buy a 888 anyway.

There's a certain attraction to get a 748R/SPS and go and do the MRO Thunderbikes championship ...

But as I said, I'm beyond poor at the moment ... so you guys are giving me 'winter-dreaming' fodder :) thank you.

07-Oct-2006, 16:45

Anything is possible with enough time and cash so a Testastretta could probably be mangled into the frame somehow...to be honest though I wouldn't bother. Think of it this way, by the time you've got a tidy Strada and then spent, what, £1200+ on an eBay 'stretta engine you're well into the price of a tidy, late 999 where you'd get your 'stretta with no hassle. T8's aren't bargain basement and even when I got my Strada I could've had a 2003 749S for pretty much the same money. The other thing is, and I'll be just a tiny bit puritanical here, to me dropping a testastretta lump in is not really in the spirit of the bike - but then it wouldn't be my bike so you could do what you liked.

Standard suspension on a Strada is Showa up front, with 40mm spacing caliper mounts and ooh, err, ummm I think Sachs or Boge at the back, but I couldn't be sure without looking in the manual. I find the standard suspension suits me very well (although I am going to drop the front end by 10mm to speed the steering a bit)

So, an ohlins/white power/something shock for it and a k-tech cartridge kit for the forks .. some nice geometry ... radial pumps and some GP billets ... tuned 996 engine similar to what I had done to my 996 and a lovely SoT machine is born :D

To be honest although the 999 shape has grown on me to the extent that I'd happily own one (I think!) I'd prefer the 888.

One thing I keep coming back to though is the weight differences between the strada and the SP which is a consideration if I wanted to race it. Especially considering my weight :D

Mr.R

07-Oct-2006, 18:19

Standard suspension on a Strada is Showa up front, with 40mm spacing caliper mounts and ooh, err, ummm I think Sachs or Boge at the back, but I couldn't be sure without looking in the manual. I find the standard suspension suits me very well (although I am going to drop the front end by 10mm to speed the steering a bit)

Hi, Rear shock on a 888 strada is a showa. If you drop the front fork through the yolks, you may find the front wheel hits the head on full compression.
Corse 888 racers had the front head machined back and the sp5 had different castings to avoid this.
Try jacking up the rear,10mm should do to start with. or try Louigi Moto jack up kit Rob B rates this set up.
Steve Robins S.W.

Jools

07-Oct-2006, 18:54

Fair point about dropping the front, but I have seen a strada set up like that (in fact I was gonna buy it) without any problems at all. I think 10-12mm is reckoned to be fine, could run into trouble dropping more than that.

I might try jacking the back end though, it's worked well on my ST even though it makes it more difficult for a stumpy legged little bugger like me to get on the damn thing

07-Oct-2006, 18:57

...I might try jacking the back end though, it's worked well on my ST even though it makes it more difficult for a stumpy legged little bugger like me to get on the damn thing

Gives you more ground clearance and by carrying the weight a little higher it also makes it a little more flickable but slightly less stable. Sigma did this on my racebike last year and it would turn whenever I thought about it!

Mr.R

07-Oct-2006, 19:06

hi again, weeveetwin says he thinks the weight difference is more than 30lbs.I find this hard to see.
The front discs are lighter,
alloy sub frame and no pillion rests,
silencers,
rear shock rising rate linkage,
single seat,

are all lighter, iv'e weighed them all, the rest of the bike is pretty much the same, i can't see 30lbs in that lot.
If iv'e missed anything please let me know. Every oz i save is another good meal i can eat!
Steve Robins S.W....... fatter than Jools!!!!

yellow916

07-Oct-2006, 19:14

TP

FWIW, my 2p worth. Agree with almost all that's been said. I have an SP3 (supposed to be even lighter than the SP4?), love the rawness. Nothing sophisticated at all! Not the best "town bike", obviously, even my 916 Bip was better there. I guess if I wanted a bike to cherish, I'd get the SP (which I did); not sure I'd want to track it though - s Strada with some of the mods described here sounds more sensible. And the thought of throwing an SPS down the road...

Whichever you get, you'll like it.

Andrew

Rob B

07-Oct-2006, 19:28

Get down for coffee and a poke around over the winter (only 75mins from yours) and you can take a view on how far you might wabt to go with a strada.

Rgds, Rob

07-Oct-2006, 19:35

Get down for coffee and a poke around over the winter (only 75mins from yours) and you can take a view on how far you might wabt to go with a strada.

Rgds, Rob

Thanks for the kind offer Rob :)

I'll be in touch about that.

Mr.R

07-Oct-2006, 19:40

Sp3 lighter than sp4? alloy tank yes but lighter seat unit on sp4, i doubt the difference was more than 1 or 2 pounds.
Steve Robins S.W.

yellow916

07-Oct-2006, 20:46

Steve

Wouldn't argue it's a huge difference, just quoting somehing I think I read somewhere!

Andrew

851neil

07-Oct-2006, 21:28

I'll 2nd Rob's offer, there's an awful lot you can do with a base model - not too far from some posting here.

Jasper

07-Oct-2006, 22:47

TP,thanks for those comments about the mountain.Says alot about the bike that it didn't spit me off on the wet grass!!You are welcome to have a go(when your brave enough!).Donington in three weeks,hope it gets through the noise test!!

07-Oct-2006, 23:10

I'll 2nd Rob's offer, there's an awful lot you can do with a base model - not too far from some posting here.

Cheers Neil! The only Auckland I know is a fair hike from here so I might take a packed lunch! But I've never been to New Zealand and I hear it's really pretty so I'm up for it.

:D

TP,thanks for those comments about the mountain.Says alot about the bike that it didn't spit me off on the wet grass!!You are welcome to have a go(when your brave enough!).Donington in three weeks,hope it gets through the noise test!!

No worries mate :) .. it's not so much being brave or whatever, but god forbid the worst happened I don't have the cash to put your pride and joy back to immaculate condition immediately, or even quickly for that matter. I'd rather not risk it until I'm financial enough to do so because I'd rather not let anyone down.

But thank you all to those who've offered me a ride on their bikes! I'm a tad overwhelmed, what a great club :)

FiscusFish

07-Oct-2006, 23:14

07-Oct-2006, 23:16

My standard '93 Strada weighed over 230 kg on my MOT testers scales, with "some" fuel (can't remember how much), standard cans, bodywork discs etc. In track guise with Ricambi bodywork, including single seat, high rise race cans and Speigler iron discs it came in at just under 200 kg. Make of that what you will...

Darren

Wow! That's a pretty dramatic change. Did you make a serious effort to shift some weight off the bike?

So I get the impression that these things are heavier than the 996/998 range?

weeveetwin

07-Oct-2006, 23:47

The manual quotes:

Strada =
445.3lb (dry)
489.4lb (kerb/wet)

888SP =
414.4lb (dry)
458.5lb (kerb/wet)

So, approx. 31lb difference if the book can be believed - but believe me, it feels like more!

FiscusFish

08-Oct-2006, 10:22

Did you make a serious effort to shift some weight off the bike?

No not really. The cans are just the usual straight through types that most Ducatis run around with anyway. The Speigler DI discs probably account for a pound or so each so I guess the biggest difference is from the fibreglass Ricambi bodywork.

It was still road legal though as I'd attached a pair of "out front" endurance style lights to the front and it also had the number plate/rear light in case I wanted to ride around in the Pyrenees as well as on track...

From my point of view it'd have to be Strada all the way. The thought of stacking an SP on the track fills me with dread whereas my '93 Strada owes me 3K... And with the execption of the tank (of which I've now got a spare) can be fixed for relatively small change) obviously dependent on how bad it gets...

As for the extra performance an SP could offer, the limiting factor is always going to be me.

Darren

CL955

08-Oct-2006, 18:09

Sp3 lighter than sp4? alloy tank yes but lighter seat unit on sp4, i doubt the difference was more than 1 or 2 pounds.
Steve Robins S.W.

And don't forget the fairing V-piece and curved bigger rad on the '4!

Mr.R

08-Oct-2006, 19:49

And don't forget the fairing V-piece and curved bigger rad on the '4!
Yes your quite right, so that's the rad and the vee piece and the extra water ( at 10lbs to the imp. gallon ) so lets make it 1-3 1/2lbs, i think a good **** should just about do it then?
Steve Robins S.W.

Mr.R

08-Oct-2006, 20:48

The manual quotes:

Strada =
445.3lb (dry)
489.4lb (kerb/wet)

888SP =
414.4lb (dry)
458.5lb (kerb/wet)

So, approx. 31lb difference if the book can be believed - but believe me, it feels like more!
Hi Steve, i do believe you, but i think it's more down to the set up of the bike (sp4 ). I think the claimed dry/wet weights were about as reliable as the claimed BHP on these models!
I have changed out the strada parts for sp/corse parts on my special, weighing them as i go.Short of the OHLINS forks and the alloy sub frame, however i have lightened the steel sub frame,throwing away the handholds drilled out anything that could be ( holes cost nothing but my time, there free to me ) and cut of and thrown any thing that doen't need to be there,I'm just about there.
Carbon Huggers, cans, footrests and carbon/kevlar sp4 seat unit.
Lightwieght discs,chain +sprockets,
Corse Mag engine covers,RS996 clutch cover,
Lightened s/steel + Ti bolts,
Alloy flywheel,clutch,1/2 time gears,camshaft wheels,
50mm full spaghetti system ( very light weight )
Light conrods,pistons and crankshaft,
I even changed the clipons for alloy ones! that saved me a whole 2oz!!!!
If this bike comes in at the claimed weight for an sp4.......I'll have your children and the rest of the forum/DSC membership can watch.
But i'd love to be proved wrong.
Steve Robins S.W. .......Not weeveetwin

weeveetwin

08-Oct-2006, 22:19

Hi Steve

If you're not careful, that bike of yours is going to float away!

My impressions are purely subjective, of course, so I can't claim to know for sure. I can only say how it feels. (The 31lb difference I've quoted above comes from the 'official' Ducati workshop manual - which also gives SP4 and SP3 as the very same weight).

I once queried this point on the US 851/888 message board, and the 'gurus' on there told me that the components allowing for pillion accomodation on the Strada add 12lb to the bike's total weight. (ie. if all of those components are removed from the bike, and are replaced with those of the SP, it would reduce the total weight by 12lb). How true it is - and how much of this is down to the steel subframe itself - I don't know.

I can appreciate your point regarding set-up, and how this can create an impression of weight loss when riding - but even in pushing the bikes around the garage the weight difference feels massive. The Strada feels like a heavy old lump indeed!

As an aside: I've an RC30 too now, and its quoted dry weight is 407lb. That makes it only seven pounds lighter than the SP. However, to say that it feels waaay lighter is an understatement. Ho hum. The water muddies! (Lies, damn lies and statistics, eh?)

Steve

Mr.R

08-Oct-2006, 23:10

Spot on Steve R, you sound like a man after my own heart, hold on you are me, or are you????? Or am i you?
How's my wife by the way?
She sends her best wishes to you, or is it me?....... or us?
Steve Robins S.W.

loony888

09-Oct-2006, 09:09

i too have heavily modified my 888 strada and can offer this, the ohlins forks on the sp's are heavier than the showas, and the steel subframe assembly with grab handles and pillion pegs, with plastic and seat weighs nearly 12kg! the sp subframe with alloy hangers and factory sp seat unit and seat weigh under 3kg. this swap alone made a huge difference to how the bike felt, and pushing it around it feels like a different bike. at present it's getting the engine modified and with new rods and pistons losing nearly 1/2 a kilo, the crank will lose some in the balancing process aswell.

Nattyboy

09-Oct-2006, 10:19

Rob B and I have had the "shall we flog our stradas and go the SP route" many times, and in the end we both stuck with our stradas..you can do some mods without worrying about it drastically affecting the value, and they are more civilised for road use.

With my blue printed, fetted motor, its still knocking out decent horspower (duke2steve reckons it leaves his 748 for dead!), and with the mods ive done its there or thereabouts on the weight side of things compared to an SP.

There was a nice SP5 coming onto the market but Robs mate blagged it (sorry Beancounter!)

Nat

09-Oct-2006, 10:25

Jasper

09-Oct-2006, 10:32

My SP5 was Dynoed at 115bhp at the rear wheel.Frankly i odn't really care how much it has,it's what it feels like.At 80000+ it feels WAHEEEEEEEYYYY!!:)And considering i'm a **** rider,it wasn't exactly humliliated at Cadwell.Given the choice,i would buy an SP and IF you needed a pillion,do the appropriate work to put a strada seat unit on the SP.But i would say that,wouldn't I??

jgriff

09-Oct-2006, 13:48

Building your own version of an SP is half the fun. I had a standard 851, now I don't. Those hours spent not riding can be used for thinking about what you are going to next. SP's are SP's and shouldn't be played with or doctored, there simply isn't that many of them. Open season on anything else but!

Griff

851neil

09-Oct-2006, 14:11

Agree 100% with Griff, mine was a base model and is now far from it, the build is where a lot of the fun and sense of achievement sits.
Don't regret what I've done at all, but wouldn't dream of doing this with an SP version though...
btw - New Zealand....nah my Bishop Auckland is much nicer, Teesdale, Weardale, Northumberland and North Yorks just a twist of the wrist away - and to top it off Croft is awfully close...
WVT - where are you based ?? love to see those bikes of yours !

weeveetwin

09-Oct-2006, 14:59

...and the steel subframe assembly with grab handles and pillion pegs, with plastic and seat weighs nearly 12kg! the sp subframe with alloy hangers and factory sp seat unit and seat weigh under 3kg. this swap alone made a huge difference to how the bike felt, and pushing it around it feels like a different bike...

Maybe this is what I'd actually been told by the US guys. (I was thinking in lb instead of kg).

851neil - I'm in Sunderland. Call by any time. (Only have the SP4 and RC30 now though. I sold my luvverly Strada to a chap from Gatwick on Saturday. He's a real nice guy, but 'twas a sad day all the same. He'll be posting here soon I imagine).

Steve

Nattyboy

09-Oct-2006, 15:20

Have you had yours on the dyno Nat? If so ... ? :D

104 at the last attempt..

09-Oct-2006, 15:26

Well, my 996 had 120 at the wheel and it was plenty quick.

104 is pretty quick too, and it's all useable no doubt.

Jasper's sounds pretty quick!

Hrmmm ...

851neil

09-Oct-2006, 16:50

dyno charts eh - here's mine from my rather special errr 1990 851 lol...nice flat power and torque curves, makes her really easy to ride and in my opinion well worth all of the effort made.

loony888

10-Oct-2006, 10:22

hey neil! i stayed with rellies in bishop auckland when i was over on hols, you remember? i called you on the IOM!! nice part of the world. by the way, what's been done to your "851" to get 134hp at the wheel!!???

Ains.

10-Oct-2006, 10:48

what's been done to your "851" to get 134hp at the wheel!!???

Intriguing. 955cc kit, >12:1cr and 140 octane av gas? LOL.

Doug Polen's 91' 888 Corse made about that with an engine life expectancy of about 400kms revving out to around 13k.

Ains.

jgriff

10-Oct-2006, 11:11

You no silly Ains old mate. You can get 8-900hp out of Volkswagon beatle engine. They last about 12 seconds!

phil_h

10-Oct-2006, 11:32

Very interesting stuff here guys.
Here am I with an '89 851SP (*000998*) ex-bot full-ohlins chassis with a 900SS in it, and a 748SPS.
I love both of them for completely different reasons
- the handling on the 851sp chassis is just wonderful and light and the engine is wonderfully grunty but runs out of steam
- the 748 in yellow with full race sticker kit always looks as if it belongs in the pit lane and handles almost as well as the 851 but the engine is just so revvy, and though it is light for a 748/916 type, its still quite heavy.
So I'm looking for an 851/888 strada to try :)
Greedy ?
Me ?
And why not ?

philthy

10-Oct-2006, 11:39

god forbid the worst happened I don't have the cash to put your pride and joy back to immaculate condition immediately, or even quickly for that matter. I'd rather not risk it until I'm financial enough to do so because I'd rather not let anyone down.

A sensible view.

A few years ago on a ride with a few mates I was offered a bike swap to do the return trip on a mint T595, which I reluctantly declined for the above reasons.

Breakfast over, ride off, seconds later the T595 and owner went straight across a T juction and into a stone wall. Apparently he shut the throttle but the bike carried on accelarating and was written off. :o

HUGE sigh of relief from me that I hadn't taken him up on the offer

FiscusFish

10-Oct-2006, 11:41

Very interesting stuff here guys.
<snip>
So I'm looking for an 851/888 strada to try :)
Greedy ?
Me ?
And why not ?

Should've asked a month or so ago at Popham. You had 10 to choose from there...

Darren

851neil

10-Oct-2006, 12:23

what's been done to your "851" to get 134hp at the wheel!!???

good question !
here goes
955 competition piston kit
Pankl SP rods (with 21mm little end) not Ti...
lightened and balanced crank
heads converted to 37mm inlet and 31mm exhaust spec
heads ported and gas flowed
race cams (431 inlet and G exhaust)
lightweight alloy flywheel
factory termi spaghetti system
955 Corse chip for the P8 ECU, rev limit 12,300rpm
running twin green injectors per tb
power commander installed to middle 2 injectors - sorts out air/fuel mix beautifully
factory carbon air intakes & airbox - uses tank as top 1/2 of airbox, it's sealed or as near as can be made so and makes a huge improvement to how she runs
slipper clutch by STM

Ains the motor has now done 1200 miles and I've just had her apart to look at condition - openers and closers all Ok, cams Ok, valves Ok, Bottom end is also fine. I think that the bottom line is that the miles I've done havn't exactly been high stress and, aside from thrashing around the IOM, she's been shortshifted everywhere. Shortshifting at 9.5 / 10k with this motor isn't a penalty either as it pulls as well as the torque and power curves suggest. not sure how long the motor will last but I'm expecting to get around 6000 miles before a refresh is needed

Loony - yeah remember the discussion, pity we couldn't have met up - another time maybe !

851neil

10-Oct-2006, 12:32

oh yeah - running super unleaded, nothing spesh as far as fuel is concerned.
squish at 1mm as well - could be reduced but why bother ?

taking ains & griff's point I suppose that only time and use will tell how long it'll last, but I ain't no Falappa / Polen or Fogarty - I'm not even that quick on track, why bother then ??? because it can be done is why !

beancounter

10-Oct-2006, 12:39

phil_h

10-Oct-2006, 13:00

Should've asked a month or so ago at Popham. You had 10 to choose from there...

Darren

I was there - my black beast was one of them !

jgriff

10-Oct-2006, 14:33

Hey Neil, no problem with doing it, its fun.My 900S2 bevel probably puts out 75hp and its still together. Just some guys aren't aware of the downside thats all. You'll probably have it for years without complaint. If your good to it and only really give it to it when the fun brian takes over, it should last for heaps. The cases are the weak point in the whole shabang. Aluminum Alloys fatigue. Thats life.

Griff

851neil

10-Oct-2006, 14:49

no probs mate, I guessed where you were coming from, and am with you on the cases issue, actually went for a 916SP motor which was converted to run the swingarm off the back of the motor - Baines did the case machining for me. I'd been told that the case internals were strengthened on the SP motor due to the deck being able to take the 955 conversion without further machining mods.
I've been shopping around recently for bits and bobs, errrm just in case !! and just picked up a set of heads, was also looking for SP Pankl rods and cases but missed the auction on these, never mind.
75bhp bevel S2 - bet that's a hoot to ride, hmmm got me green on that one

Mr.R

10-Oct-2006, 22:53

Hi, This has been one of the best threads for a while. Must i agree with lads who said building it yourself is 1/2 the FUN, although probably more than that for me, engine building has been my thing for a long time.
Mid 130s bhp motors? I must agree with Ains et al,likening them to a hand grenade with the pin 1/2 way out or a tune to far. Great FUNif someone else is paying for the upkeep. Having said that both Neil and Rob B wisely used latter/stronger cases/motors.
When Raymond Roach won his WSB champinship, it was said that they got through 30 YES 30 sets of c/cases!!!!!!!!!
With this in mind i set about tuning my "92 851 strada.I wanted sp4 type power with a broader spread and peak below 10,000rpm.
Despite all the bhp claims for these models,the real world figure is around 82rwbhp! (still enough for 150/1 or 2 mph).
A 916 set of heads....same valve sizes,but better/cleaner ports,
916 barrels,
853 pistons-lighter than 888/916 items,
851 steel Pankle rods-lighter/stronger than 916 items,
Ballanced 916 crank,better oil feed to the l/hand side of the motor,as in it's got some!!!!!
916 water pump-same 888/926/955 corse item,
916 oil cooler,
Alloy flywheel*,stm slipper clutch + plates,1/2 time wheels (sp4/5),V-TWO vernier adjustment camwheels,
V-TWO 604 cams-996sps rip-offs,
54mm single green top feed injectors,
Feul pressure bumped upto 4.5 bar,
Inlet stubs matched to suit,
Full 50mm spaghetti GIA-CA-MOTO high rise spaghetti system,
955 corse roller main bearings (not to sure about these now),
Full blue print,
FIM 916 open pipe chip-fim 061?,
Dyno set up by Steve "H" at Moto Rapido.
So how did i do???
All work by myself except Dyno set up and crank,pistons and rods.ballancing....J+J's of Swindon-----Very GOOD!!!!!!!
Well i said i would be happy with a strong 110bhp and i would be over the moon with 115bhp...........Well i'm not over the moon,but she made the base line at 7,100rpm,100 at 8,400,105 at 8,800 and 110 at 9,500 hanging on to that till 9,800 then tailing off to 105 at 10,700rpm.a dead straight line from 3,000 to 9,500rpm! Max Torque 65.5 at7,250 with a good spread till 9,250
Not the star ship enterprise......but i'm quite chuffed!This was with a standard 851 airbox....Top removed, ITG foam filtre
The mk2 is now on the bench...Sp5 heads o/size valves 35/31, long stroke 900ss crank,Ti Pankle( 748sps) rods and 748 close gearbox,works carbon airbox and "x" shape runners.955 pistons giving 984cc.
Well that's the short version....2 other Dukes to keep going and 6 children and ONE very understanding wife.
Steve Robins S.W.

10-Oct-2006, 23:04

Hi, This has been one of the best threads for a while....

I'm glad I can do SOMETHING positive on this website!

Still, thank you all for your input so far, it's one of my favourite threads ever. Heaps of good info.

I appreciate it :D

jgriff

10-Oct-2006, 23:25

My crowning moment on the S2 was taking out an R1 on the mountain, poor guy didn't know what was going on. Ah these young fellas with their new fan-dangled machines.
Yes I'm after a set of 748/916 heads for my 851. I'll just keep searching ebay, the best I've seen is US$280 for a complete set a few months ago. I already have 888 cases and SP2 gearbox, and balanced crank. And one day I might even put on 888 barrels. Oooooo!
Right now my mission is to build a machine be able to get past Blob (115kg vs my 75kg) on his 135hp 748. I think I have him on power to weight ratio.

Griff

Mr.R

10-Oct-2006, 23:26

This is a bit of a p.s anybody want to borrow my wife ? She's a star,she never blinked once.....
Steve

851neil

11-Oct-2006, 08:41

aha, Steve - got that 3 piece airbox fitted up yet ?? or is that part of your stage 2 project.
This is a really good discussion, from all of the chats I've had with peeps on / off the forum it's always been my intent to have a motor with a slightly lower state of tune - as such I have the 916SP cams in storage and will soon have a fresh set of heads to play with. I'll take these spares to the same valve spec as my current motor and have them re-shaped / ported but run softer cams. If push comes to shove I've then got some options to play with, next insurance policy will be a set of cases.

851neil

11-Oct-2006, 08:42

Steve, If your missus has done your engine work then she's more than welcome in the sunny NEast - take it she's leaving the kids at home then lol

loony888

11-Oct-2006, 09:12

g,day again guys,
for those interested, here's a run down on what's going on to my 888 donk as we speak.
FBF 12.4 pistons
carrillo rods
lightened and balanced crank ( with pistons, rods,primary gear,flywheel)
sps flywheel
STM slipper clutch
36mm inlet and 30mm exhaust ferrea valves
SPS T1 cams
portmatched and tidied up heads
1.00mm squish
3 piece c/f airbox with carbon ram tubes and ITG filter.
48mm ID "daytona" termignoni spaghetti system.
varijet regulator set at 4.5 bar
power commander and FIM chip for seperate cyl mapping.
i'll let you know what it's like when it's back together.
cheers,
paul

loony888

11-Oct-2006, 09:16

oh! if anyone is interested, my 888 strada had pankl sp H style rods fitted std, the motor did 23 thou klms and they are in perfect condition. i bought carrillos expecting to find ordinary macchi rods in there!!!

851neil

11-Oct-2006, 10:43

Paul, with that spec she should go really well !
Give me a clue about the fuel pressure though - are you going to run 1 or 2 injectors per cylinder ?

loony888

11-Oct-2006, 12:11

Paul, with that spec she should go really well !
Give me a clue about the fuel pressure though - are you going to run 1 or 2 injectors per cylinder ?
only 1 per cyl, i couldn't find an original twin set up so to overcome the shortfall in fuel req./injector open time i decided to up the pressure. typically, 888 and 916s on one injector can lean out at peak revs and with the max open time exceeding the available time the only other way to get enough fuel in there was to up the pressure.

851neil

11-Oct-2006, 12:55

jgriff

11-Oct-2006, 13:53

Mr.R

11-Oct-2006, 16:51

Hi, Neil, the 3 piece carbon airbox is for the mk2 project, but the engine breather catch tank at the rear of the a'box fouls the throttle linkage on the 996sps 4 injector set up, so it's either cut the box??? or fit the linkage from the 851 throttles.
Steve

851neil

11-Oct-2006, 21:23

thanks Griff, had a read of that - forgotten how much info there is on that site.

851neil

11-Oct-2006, 21:27

Steve, not sure of the implications of either one of those solutions - but don't mention chopping the box up, you'll have the carbon bling Police knocking on your door..Anyway it looks much too nice to chop...

loony888

12-Oct-2006, 08:58

I guessed you must just be running the single injector from the pressure setting. Are you planning to upgrade the tb's and go to 4 injectors or is it a case of suck and see how she goes ?
Only reason I ask is that at lower revs with higher fuel pressure settings I would have thought that you would see poor atomisation leading to rough running in the lower rev range.
i did think of that, but hopefully getting it dynoed and having the PCIII set up in conjunction with the FIM ultimap chip we can sort it. from my one ride on a sp5 (admitedly it's been my only ride on a 4 injector bike) it ran rough as **** down low anyway. i also have the facility to map the cylinders individually, so i'm hoping there is enough adjustability to set it up just right.

851neil

18-Oct-2006, 15:51

you might want to set youself up with an inline pressure gauge - just so that when you come to run the bike you have something that can measure just what is going to the injectors. Changing pressure is a doddle then as you can just take out the alloy end cap on the regulator and adjust on the dyno - worked a treat on mine. I just re-sealed the open end of the regulator with silicon waterproof sealant.
I take it you'll buy the piggy back ultimap chip to allow seperate cylinder mapping ? I bought one and it's a cracker, titled as 955 corse, but am tempted to go for something that will pull the rev ceiling down a little, maybe to 11,500 instead of 12,250.
cheers

Neil

loony888

19-Oct-2006, 10:19

yep, i have the piggyback chip, i also have mounted a VDO pressure guage permanently under the airbox, it's clamped to the reg and i can adjust it and see a constant pressure without having to plumb in a temporary guage.

phil_h

19-Oct-2006, 12:41

pull the rev ceiling down a little, maybe to 11,500 instead of 12,250.
cheers

Neil

And how long do you guys expect your pistons to last btw ?
And the cams ?
As far as I can work out, at much above 11000 rpm, they will need replacing on race schedules of about a couple of hundred hours of practical use before they damage something else.
Get someone to work out the piston speed figures properly and change your oil every 10 hours at that rate.
I think you're playing with full-race-spec figures and not factoring in the high maintenance levels that are assumed will go with it.
Or do you accept really high maintenance costs anyway :lol:

Just my 2p

gary-g

19-Oct-2006, 13:29

Does anyone have any experience of setting the camshaft timing with vernier camwheels and who sells the parts?

This will be a must-do for the 888 engine at some stage in the future, but it's never too early to source the right knowledge and bits.

Is it done by offset dowels, or adjustable pulleys?

Alternatively, with all of the tools that are required, has anyone had this done by a bike shop in the S.E.that they would recommend?

...and was it worth it?

Cheers

phil_h

19-Oct-2006, 14:07

Sigma advertise the service, and I am sure that Pro-Twins will do it too.
The 'traditional' and cheaper-in-parts way is to use offset keys, but they are limited to a few degrees.
http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/index.html
I have been warned off the vee-two vernier pulleys that sigma advertise by tales of failures, but I am sure some of those could be due to inexperience in setting up vernier pulleys. Vernier pulleys are much more expensive in cost terms, but much faster and easier to set up.
Dialling in the cams is one of the key things in the sigma 'full-monty'.

Mr.R

19-Oct-2006, 14:49

Hi, I have used V-Two adjustable pulleys on my 851 special, i found them very easy to set up and appear to be very well made. Offset keys are 'mucho' expensive and quite hard to get hold of (in a hurry) they also come in 2 degree steps,so are harder to get spot on! The only way i can see them failing (the v-2 items) is if they are not installed correctley, maybe coming loose. If you know what your'e doing this shouldn't be a problem!
After setting your'e cams with the v-2 pulleys,there's a small hole in the outer face of the wheels,using a small drill, 3mm? you drill through the whole unit and then install a stainless roll pin,then the wheels can't slip/move. they can still be dismantled and reset in the future,by removing the pulley and knocking out the pin.
In my opinion both v-two or sigma don't sell **** or bling,i have always beem well pleased with their advice and their kit.
Steve Robins s.w.

I carry out all my own work,but if i had to choose between sigma or pro-twins,then sigma would get my vote, based on conversations with both outfits and surfing the net.

851neil

19-Oct-2006, 22:08

got the v 2 pulleys on my bike - speak to any engine man and he'll tell you that pulleys are the way to go. Not only do the keys only come in limited steps but they are mega hard to come by as Steve points out.
Also buy from Oz now and you benefit from a good exchange rate - cheaper than buying in the UK, even with the import duty...
So far as maintenance is concerned, just had my heads off after approx 1200 miles of use and not a mark - cams and rockers are Ok as well as pistons. Havn't had the bottom end to bits so can't speak for how the cases look to be lasting but there doesn't seem to be any issues right now.
I guess that engine life is down to how hard you ride these things - now I think I ride my bike hard, but know for a fact that I'll never push the bike more than a tenth of what it would have had if it had been a racer. So my insurance is regular strip downs and oil changes - thru maintenance hopefully I'll catch whatever could go before it happens !!!
Hang the expense - it's worth the grin....

jgriff

19-Oct-2006, 22:55

Later models have adjustable pullies as standard. Have a chat to a mechanic about which ones. 748 ones will fit your cams not sure about 749's, and may be cheaper than Vee2's.

Griff

phil911

20-Oct-2006, 08:40

And how long do you guys expect your pistons to last btw ?
And the cams ?
As far as I can work out, at much above 11000 rpm, they will need replacing on race schedules of about a couple of hundred hours of practical use before they damage something else.
Get someone to work out the piston speed figures properly and change your oil every 10 hours at that rate.
I think you're playing with full-race-spec figures and not factoring in the high maintenance levels that are assumed will go with it.
Or do you accept really high maintenance costs anyway :lol:

Just my 2p.

---> Judicious point of view !!!
You're playing a very expensive game ...

Phil911

851neil

20-Oct-2006, 13:12

"You're playing a very expensive game ..."

aware of that - what the hell !
you have to spend your money somewhere - now I don't have a lot of money either, but it's worth it....

phil_h

20-Oct-2006, 13:20

Later models have adjustable pullies as standard. Have a chat to a mechanic about which ones. 748 ones will fit your cams not sure about 749's, and may be cheaper than Vee2's.

Griff

:eureka:
A part number for the new ones would be good !
Or a price, I guess, and then we can compare with v2 price.
(Having been stung on import duty with stuff from the states :( )

Just bought a '92 strada in need of some work :D

jgriff

20-Oct-2006, 14:28

:eureka:
A part number for the new ones would be good !
Or a price, I guess, and then we can compare with v2 price.
(Having been stung on import duty with stuff from the states :( )

Just bought a '92 strada in need of some work :D

If I remember while I'm at the shop tomorrow, I'll get one.
If its under a $1000 they leave us alone with import duty. That is why they call this the lucky country. Got no water but! How lucky is that!
Griff

Mr.R

20-Oct-2006, 14:51

Hi, On the import duty front, if you get the sender to mark the parcel as a gift, sampels or free of charge, then the revenue boys aren't to interested! So iv'e been told, not that i would do this myself, you must understand! as it would be dishonest and we can't have that can we?
Steve R, S.W. U.K.

Mr.R

20-Oct-2006, 15:13

"You're playing a very expensive game ..."

aware of that - what the hell !
you have to spend your money somewhere - now I don't have a lot of money either, but it's worth it....

That's ok until your bike goes BANG!!! and your friends pick you up in a van, take you to your local pub, to let you cry on their shoulder's ,then whilst knocking your knuckels on the bar to show them the sound that your pride n' joy was makeing......The barmaid tells you off for getting her attention in that way!!! You then explain what's happened to your bike, whilst telling her how sorry you are, only to have her say "Well it's a Ducati, what else do you expect"?????
Don't ask me how i know this.....but it's a true story!
Steve Robins s.w.

Mr.R

20-Oct-2006, 15:36

851neil

20-Oct-2006, 23:32

lol 'That's ok until your bike goes BANG!!!'
yeah been there before with tuned strokers..hope it never comes up with the Duc though - could cost a couple of quid to put right :-)

jgriff

21-Oct-2006, 10:53

If I remember while I'm at the shop tomorrow, I'll get one.
If its under a $1000 they leave us alone with import duty. That is why they call this the lucky country. Got no water but! How lucky is that!
Griff
Well went to the shop, looked at the catalogo. Adjustable pullies came out on the 998. AUD$300+ each pully. The good news is they were not designed for the the quick cam timing changes, but rather to speed up factory setup time. The Blob says woodruff keys are the way to go. But he would. Because he has a secret supplier of the no longer factory made keys. I guess it boils down to how much you want to play around (tinker) with cam timing. Hope this is of help.

Steve we keep the rate down to 4p so when you guys come over you think you are all millionaires at currency exchange counter. Then you buy your first beer and the illusion is shattered. Hence distroying your moral fiber. Its our way of getting back at you lot for bodyline cricket and rabbits.