2015 Considerations

[skidlids]

How Many rounds how many races to count towards the championship points score

In 2015 Hottrax have put together an 11 meeting Race Calendar

They have made the August Bank Holiday meeting at Cadwell Park a NON Championship special meeting, thus making it 10 championship meetings

10 championship meetings would be made up of 29 races, where we could have your best 26 results to count towards the championship score

Alternatively it may be possible for Desmo Due to have 13 championship meetings with the August Cadwell counting as 2 rounds, as there will be quallifying and 2 races on both the Sunday and Monday
This would increase the total to 33 races of which we could again have 26 counting towards the final points score

[badgerpilot]

What about 25 from 29 to count, only 1 DNF allowed?

[skidlids]

So if only 29 then why 25, you would need to do at least 8 meetings with 3 races leaving you one race short so would have to do 9 meetings any way, so would be doing 26 races

or looking at it from the other direction you would be dropping 4 races so could only miss one of the 10 Championship meetings

If we don't have Cadwell as point scoring what size grids will we get, It's going to be the 10th anniversary/ Dave Harris memorial meet and if hardly anybody turns up I for one will be well hacked off.

[badgerpilot]

Was just a thought to get the ball rolling.

I defo can't do the 2nd Cadwell meet due to work restriction.

[skidlids]

Was just a thought to get the ball rolling.

I defo can't do the 2nd Cadwell meet due to work restriction.

hence the Drop 7, some may only be able to do the Sunday or the Monday but not both hence it being a separate round each day. Others might not be able to do Oulton as qually is always on the Friday
The guys from Scotland may not want to do Brands or Pembrey and those South of London may not want to do Knockhill and Anglesey

Its trying to get the right balance so that we end up with a healthy grid at each meeting

[dunlop0_1]

Old school I know Kev but the New Era Sunday races/points seemed to work for a number of years leaving Saturday more like a practice etc. I imagine that Sunday is also possibly the most likely day people could attend.

:)

[badgerpilot]

Yeh the New Era system worked ok but it'd make qually tricky with Hottrax unless you don't mind starting from the back.
Would it be too difficult to use your fastest lap from the previous race as your grid position, obviously using qually for the first? I'm sure someone in the DD paddock could work it out to save the Hottrax people the work.

The drop 7 idea works for me, would it be as many DNSs as you want but only 1 (maybe 2) DNFs?

[skidlids]

The drop 7 idea works for me, would it be as many DNSs as you want but only 1 (maybe 2) DNFs?

There has been very little feedback about only been able to drop one DNF in 2014
After my DNF at Snetterton in the 3rd race it did make me a bit more thoughtful especially regarding breakdowns and at Croft I thinking about finishes until race 3 then it was stick my neck out time.
If we have 26 races counting this year then maybe dropping 2 DNFs, especially if we have Cadwell as Points and then drop 7 of the posssible 33

[badgerpilot]

It defo does alter your race mind set once you've had your allowance of DNFs, it does punish bad luck and so is it worth scrapping the idea? After all nobody goes out with the intention of not finishing a race. Jim's breakdown at Snett ultimately cost him the title.

[skidlids]

Jim's breakdown at Snett ultimately cost him the title.

Or was it his crash at Oulton, was that crash avoidable and were we all just lucky it didn't bring out a red flag and cut the race short for all the others taking part.

[banger san]

Alternatively it may be possible for Desmo Due to have 13 championship meetings with the August Cadwell counting as 2 rounds, as there will be quallifying and 2 races on both the Sunday and Monday
This would increase the total to 33 races of which we could again have 26 counting towards the final points score

I like the sound of this, gives a lot of flexibility and makes sure a reasonable number for second Cadwell.
Personally I wouldn't bother with DNS or DNF just drop you 7 worst scores, nobody goes out to crash.

Looking forward to a cracking season which ever way people decide.

[Trumpet]

I also like the flexibility of 26 to score from 33, I also suspect that the 2nd Cadwell may have very low turnout if it's non championship.
As to DNS or DNF it just increases the effect of luck, not skill. DNF is not only about crashing yourself, it could be getting someone else's crash (or avoiding one) or a mechanical, lets try and keep it all about skill and speed!

[badgerpilot]

I like the sound of this, gives a lot of flexibility and makes sure a reasonable number for second Cadwell.
Personally I wouldn't bother with DNS or DNF just drop you 7 worst scores, nobody goes out to crash.

Looking forward to a cracking season which ever way people decide.

Agreed here, dropping any 7 would also tighten things up and make people more likely to do more meets.

[skidlids]

Unlimited DNFs would also allow those not comfortable in the wet pull out of a race should it start raining

I'm happy to go with all races of which there are 33 to count as point scoring but only a riders best 26 results to count towards the overall championship

[Trumpet]

Sounds good.

[badgerpilot]

So all involved in this thread seem to agree to go with:-
a, All 33 races count towards championship points.
b, Riders are to drop their 7 lowest scoring race points.

Do we need to make a vote thread for these ideas?
I'm happy to propose it.

[banger san]

Unlimited DNFs would also allow those not comfortable in the wet pull out of a race should it start raining


What you thinking then Kev? To me part of a champion should be that they can ride in all conditions.

[coppersaucepipe]

What you thinking then Kev? To me part of a champion should be that they can ride in all conditions.
If it's like this season, they'll need to anyway (ride in the wet).
If it's like 2013, it'll be a non issue as most races were dry.

[hor5net]

I think:-
3 races in August is too expensive.

we counted 23 races in 2014 because all 26 seemed to much, why are we now expected to count 26?

dropping more races doesn't help because you have to go to them all just in case you have a shocker or get knocked off at a later round and need the points to add to your total.

the only fair way is to make Cadwell 2 not count. Then drop 5 or 6 races from the remaining 29. This way you don't have to go to cadwell if money is tight and it can't effect the championship points.

If turnout for cadwell is low cos it counts but can be dropped, it is a massive advantage for those that live near.

If turnout is low for cadwell cos it doesn't count then Hottrax shouldn't put on 11 rounds.

Is the ethos of DD not affordable racing? the costs have gone way up with 8 rounds then 9 and now 11!

[coppersaucepipe]

There May be 3 races in August but there are non in July.

If you can drop any 7 races, than you can afford to plan to not go to 1 entire meeting and still have plenty of slack for mishaps.

Alternatively, rather than count your best 26 races, why not count your best 8 meetings. I don't see any reason why Cadwell 2 can't be point scoring for those that want to score points there but can't make other rounds.

[banger san]

the only fair way is to make Cadwell 2 not count. Then drop 5 or 6 races from the remaining 29. This way you don't have to go to cadwell if money is tight and it can't effect the championship points.


To me a worthy champion should be fast, consistent and show commitment, if only 23 or 24 races count from a possible 33 to me that doesn't sound enough to fulfil the above. I know the number of rounds have increased but DD don't control that and let's be honest you, Jim, Scott and me did all 9 rounds last year and thoroughly enjoyed it. Being able to drop 7 races will allow me to choose one round to drop and have a couple of mishaps so think it's a good compromise.

[milesaway]

my 2pence worth of thoughts are:
unlimeted dnf's doesnt reward consistent riding and finishes
too few allowed dnf's can penalise bad luck

once it's decided how many race results make up the points for championship best to allow any meeting to be used to make up those results

[skidlids]

In general more choice is a good thing !
so being able to pick 9 from 11 race weekends is probably going to suit more riders than either 11 from 11 or 9 from 9 weekends

We could limit the amount of meetings entered by any rider to 9 of meetings and then only count 23 of their scores, but that would likely reduce grid sizes (could even end up with an empty grid at Mallory) and penalise Hottrax which could then have a negative result on the following season and future entrants

Without a race in July and three in August there will be some that will give at least one of these August meetings a miss, some may give a earlier round a miss with the intention of putting the saved money aside for August and others opt to miss later rounds. Therefore offering quite a few choices.

[banger san]

[QUOTE=skidlids]In general more choice is a good thing !
so being able to pick 9 from 11 race weekends is probably going to suit more riders than either 11 from 11 or 9 from 9 weekends
QUOTE]
Agree with you Kev more choice is generally a good thing. No matter how it pans out there will always be somebody it doesn't suit what we have to think about is what is best for the series and the majority. To me this means supporting Hottrax by competing at every meeting and allowing people the flexibility to do what they want whether that is somebody who wants to compete in all 11 or those who want to pick and choose.

The compromise of all 11 rounds counting with your best 26 results to count does it for me.

Miles does make a good point that we should reward consistency so perhaps a limit of 3 DNFs or was it a pain to administer in 2014?

[skidlids]

Miles does make a good point that we should reward consistency so perhaps a limit of 3 DNFs or was it a pain to administer in 2014?

The problem comes when a race is red flagged after someone has DNF'd before the red flag and is therefore not the cause of the stoppage. Then the race is re run from the same starting positions so is effectively a new race and what went before is null and void. With the only exclusion being the rider that caused the stoppage, so although someone may have crashed out or broken down before that and can't get back on the grid they then become a DNS

Now when it comes to these restarts and calling what went before the CofC seems to me to make some odd decisions.
And changing a DNF that couldn't be dropped to a DNS that can be dropped can make quite a difference in a championship chase
This is something I didn't anticipate last season

But on the whole if we go for 26 from 33 and allow the dropping of 7 we could certainly reward consistency through bike prep and using your noodle by only allowing a limited amount of DNFs and as you suggest 3 seems a fair amount

[banger san]

Then the race is re run from the same starting positions so is effectively a new race and what went before is null and void. With the only exclusion being the rider that caused the stoppage, so although someone may have crashed out or broken down before that and can't get back on the grid they then become a DNS

I think this is where the issue is, they always put us back to our original start position and never aggregate both parts so it will always be a new race. Could we state our own rules saying if you crash or break down then it is classified as a DNF, not quite worked out how or who would keep an eye on it though, just a thought but might get even more complicated. :confused:

[hor5net]

Seems a bit silly. If you start a race and dont finish it regardless of reason it should be a DNF

Restarting a race after an incident is not a fresh new race and should really be done in the running order at the time of the red flag.

If 2 people crash out without a red flag then 5 laps later out comes the red flag those 2 people should not be allowed to start again and should get a DNF. With last year's rule interpretation they would get a DNS which is wrong.

[skidlids]

Seems a bit silly. If you start a race and dont finish it regardless of reason it should be a DNF

Restarting a race after an incident is not a fresh new race and should really be done in the running order at the time of the red flag.

If 2 people crash out without a red flag then 5 laps later out comes the red flag those 2 people should not be allowed to start again and should get a DNF. With last year's rule interpretation they would get a DNS which is wrong.


All under the ACU rules and what the Clerk of the Course decides. Nothing to do with Desmo Due rules
If the grid is reformed and the riders start from their original positions it is deemed to be a re run of the race and not a continuation, so what has gone before is null and void.
I can't recall a DD or other club race that I have been at been run in two parts where we form up on the grid in new positions corresponding to where we crossed the line

As this would mean we would have to leave the track, the first part be called and standings (taken back a lap)at the time of a Red flag published, then there should be a half hour for anybody to protest those standings (may have been passed under a yellow flag or someone missed a chicane at somewhere like Oulton and gained an advantage)
Then when that period has expired the race can be run providing it wasn't the last or next to last race of the day then it may just be canceled and half points awarded for the first part

[hor5net]

Fair enough.

Just out of interest, would that mean if you missed the start first time you could be in the next start?

[skidlids]

Fair enough.

Just out of interest, would that mean if you missed the start first time you could be in the next start?

Yes
Although I have noticed Hottrax seem to alter the rules to suit themselves at times as the ACU refers to the amount of laps completed and remaining laps left in the race for the decision about a rerun or continuation to be made.

[badgerpilot]

As much as it pains me, I agree with Blommers.

If your name is on the grid list and you don't make the start then you're a DNS, if you make the grid but not the chequered flag then you're a DNF.

Regarding starts and re-starts then it's CofC that decides if and where you can join the race or not at all.

Best 26 finishes gets my vote with a max of 3 DNFs and as many DNSs as you want.

[skidlids]

If your name is on the grid list and you don't make the start then you're a DNS, if you make the grid but not the chequered flag then you're a DNF.


Not our call
We race under a ACU permit at each meeting allowed to do so by our ACU licence, therefore we are subject to the ACU rules.
Just have to hope things don't transpire to often and when they do the CofC gets it right

[badgerpilot]

We just gotta go with CofC's call on those matters then.

Can we do a poll to accept or decline 26 from 33 races scores to count with a maximum of 3 DNFs and no limit of DNSs?

I propose it.

Give it 2 weeks so people can cast their vote.

[milesaway]

my brain hurts now

[skidlids]

my brain hurts now

How do you think mine fills after several years of this along with all the other stuff going on that's DD related

[hor5net]

My vote is to not count cadwell 2. And drop 6 from 29 to give the same number races as last year.

[skidlids]

Can we do a poll to accept or decline 26 from 33 races scores to count with a maximum of 3 DNFs and no limit of DNSs?

I propose it.

Give it 2 weeks so people can cast their vote.

And what would the other voting options be, as if it's declined then another option will have to go through the same process

All races score just a matter of how many count to a individuals championship total
33 from 33
29 from 33
26 from 33
23 from 33

Drop Cadwell in the Summer as point scoring
29 from 29
26 from 29
23 from 29

Drop either Brands or Mallory as point scoring due to time of year (Ideally Mallory as Paddock facilities are rubbish)
Or Drop Knockhill as point scoring as it costs a lot for many to get there.
30 from 30
27 from 30
24 from 30

Drop Brands and Mallory as point scoring as weather is usually rubbish in March and October)
27 from 27
25 from 27
24 from 27

Also need to sort out who can vote, how do we ensure it's only those that are interested in racing in DD in 2015 and does someone who maybe only does 1 round a year (I can name several from 2014) have the same say as someone that will do 8, 9, 10 or 11 meetings
Often people do whats best for themselves and not whats best for the series and future entrants

[skidlids]

My vote is to not count cadwell 2. And drop 6 from 29 to give the same number races as last year.

If Cadwell 2 is Non Points how will you ensure we have a decent size grid, say a minimum of 25

[skidlids]

And people do realise that it is still a provisional Hottrax calender and subject to change without any prior notice

[badgerpilot]

OK, I see your point and there only seem to be a handful of people interested in voicing an opinion despite myself mentioning it on Facebook as well.

How about I/we start a thread asking for suggestions and let it run for a week?

Each person is allowed 1 suggestion and at the end of the week we do a poll that only people racing in 2015 vote on. I suppose we'll have to go off members honesty as to whether they intend racing next year or not.

I'd just like some clarity on how things are going to be decided next year.

[hor5net]

New thread is a good idea. How do we make sure all DDers know about it? FB seems a good start as most seem to be on there but need to make sure all get a chance to vote.

Hottrax seem happy to drop cadwell so that seems to fit, plus as someone like mark only has knockhill anywhere near it would seem harsh (if cost saving) to not count it. He travels to brands after all.

[skidlids]

I'd just like some clarity on how things are going to be decided next year.

Why not by the DSC management team as its the Clubs series and how it's been done for the past 10 years

As Dallas said to me the other day
If nobody else wants to run it I should run it as I want

I see Hottrax have said it's 9 out of the 10 rounds to count for their series with the 2nd Cadwell Non point scoring, well we remember how Knockhill turned out for many of their classes last year.

Also if you want to try and win their Championship would you not drop Oulton as the most you can score there is 50 points where as all the other rounds they can score 100 points

[hor5net]

Good point kev, DSC management team seems like a good idea but,

Are they independent from the riders?

Have they said how the points should be decided?

[Trumpet]

I think if we are trying to keep the series strong with a good turn out at all rounds, then all rounds should be included in the championship, lets face it if a round is not included the turnout will be very low (especially with so many other rounds to pay for), we are going from 9 to 11 rounds, and we collectively seem to like the flexibility of being able to drop at least one round (due to work commitments, family commitments, finances etc), so that is at least 3 DNS. So if that is the case and that is generally accepted, it is then just a case of deciding the number of races, DNS and DNF's to count.

My personal thoughts on the amounts of rounds to count are; and whilst I understand that we want the championship to be decided by skill in all conditions, it may be better for the entry levels at the later rounds if we simply allowed for it to be number of race wins to count and my thought is for that to be 26.......all of which is probably a long winded way of simply voting for 26 from 33.

But whatever is decided the organisers have my support, because it looks like 'herding cats' a bloody thankless task, for which I thank you!

[hor5net]

Just looked at who the DSC management team are, do you think Foggy will vote ? :)

[coppersaucepipe]

I won't be doing a full year next season, but am really looking forward to the opportunity of racing Cadwell on August Bank Holiday weekend, and would rather do that on a packed grid than a depleted grid because championship contenders didn't turn up as there were no points on offer.

If you really want to mix it up for the contenders, how about a handful of random double points races. Say 4 or 5 pulled out of a hat at the start of the season.

At the end of the day, the points available won't influence which races I enter, I don't care about the points, I only care about beating Mark, Mykal, Miles, Dean, Pete, James and Shane in the races that I enter.

[badgerpilot]

Why not by the DSC management team as its the Clubs series and how it's been done for the past 10 years

As Dallas said to me the other day
If nobody else wants to run it I should run it as I want


I'll go with whatever is decided by the RC, I know you have loads to organise and administer which is greatly appreciated. All I was trying to do was help sort one issue out.

[milesaway]

most of the ideas coming up seem sensible enough to me-

if we went along with 26 race results counting to the total from any of the 11 meetings
had a fixed number of dropped dnf's allowed (the figures suggested of 3 or 4 sounded sensible enough)

The pressure to do all 11 rounds to be competative overall being a financial problem could be removed by only allowing entry for point scoring to a max of 10 meetings ie everyone has to take their 26 best results from 10 meetings

Maybe we could have either 26 results to count from 10 meetings with a 4dnf option or 24 results to count from 9 meetings with a 3dnf option but choose to run in whichever meetings will suit you best

re the dnf/dns issue maybe we just let that go to fate and if you're dnf ends up being taken as a dns then you're very lucky coz it sounds like anything else will be a lot of extra hassle for somebody to keep track of and try to work out??????????

[milesaway]

there we are it's written and stickied- job done and end of debate- leaves us all a few options to choose what we do whether that's tactical or fitting in what we have the time + money to do-

Roll on DD2015!!!! see you all soon :D

[skidlids]

there we are it's written and stickied- job done and end of debate- leaves us all a few options to choose what we do whether that's tactical or fitting in what we have the time + money to do-

Roll on DD2015!!!! see you all soon :D

Cheers Miles
I considered the various options and had discussions with various people and think it is the best option for the position we find ourselves in with Hottrax having so many meetings on their provisional calendar. And with it being Provisional if they ended up dropping a meeting it would be easy for us to adapt

Now I just need the tyre deal sorted and get on with the riders reps thread for nominations followed by elections