View Full Version : User Moderation
webteam
12-Oct-2006, 08:08
Following the events of Saturday eveing at Cadwell, a number of users of this message board have been put onto 'Moderation' status. This means that any postings by those individuals has to be verified by the webteam (or other moderator) before being publically visible.
This is not a suspension of posting, merely ensuring that the facility paid for by the club members (i.e. this board) is not the mechanism used to promote and further the activities of a 'breakaway' group.
Hopefully this will be a temporary measure and a solution will be reached soon that allows all members to post freely.
Murray Mint
12-Oct-2006, 08:11
So it's not a public forum?
dickieducati
12-Oct-2006, 08:14
poor show, i think. why cant people be allowed to make their own minds up about options available rather than being censored?
"Thoughtcrime does not entail death: thoughtcrime is death."
- George Orwell, 1984, Book 1, Chapter 2
Following the events of Saturday eveing at Cadwell, a number of users of this message board have been put onto 'Moderation' status. This means that any postings by those individuals has to be verified by the webteam (or other moderator) before being publically visible.
This is not a suspension of posting, merely ensuring that the facility paid for by the club members (i.e. this board) is not the mechanism used to promote and further the activities of a 'breakaway' group.
Hopefully this will be a temporary measure and a solution will be reached soon that allows all members to post freely.
Another underhanded back door approach to end democracy on the board then, I wonder who instigated this then!!
phoenix n max
12-Oct-2006, 08:21
Sorry - but I don't agree with that at all !
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 08:25
Yay :) peace at last....
i can feel the tranquility washing over me :)
WTF?? A year ago when i set upnorth up it would have been classed by some as a "beakaway" group despite my detailled explanations that it wasn't and that it was meant to compiliment DSC activities and give members more events to attend. Does this new rule now mean that anyone who tries to do anything outside of the club runs the risk of having every post they make censored??
On a seperate issue the time lag between post, moderation and publication also mean the post might even be relevant or could cause other problems.
It also seems that we are not capable of reading a users posts and making an informed decision on the posters intention, we're all adults with the ability to reason and debate when needed.
Given the current problems within the club ( perceived or real) this course of action will do little to help things. The people involved will just move to other sites frequented by a lot of users here and debate things, this then puts pressure on the site owners as to what action they take and i have no desire to have to start moderating or censoring posts on my forum, i'd think Dan at Ducatisti and Dom with DD also would say the same.
Maybe its time people thought through the consequences of their actions before carrying them out, that applies to however many "sides, MT, breakaway, evo whatever" there are involved.
I'd urge webteam to remove the moderation and those moderated to consider carefully what they post on this forum to avoid it ending up with this causing a bigger problem than it really is.
I don’t think draconian censorship is going to improve matters, it smacks of desperation to stop debate and free speech. Poor decision in my opinion :(
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 08:45
I'd urge webteam to remove the moderation and those moderated to consider carefully what they post on this forum to avoid it ending up with this causing a bigger problem than it really is.
i urge them to remove Dom from the club/series, that would sort 99% of the clubs' problem within 5 seconds :)
You have got to be joking
No one likes the bickering and no one wants to see the club split, but surely in adult world the approach is one of open discussion to resolve issues rather than burying heads in the sand and moderating the trouble makers?
If this is the case, do the rest of us get to see who is being moderated so when/if their posts come through we understand if they are out of context etc
looks like i must be on the list than as when i logged in the 1st thing i saw was
ak you do not have permission to access this page
but then everything was as usual after that.
thanks webteam
i wasnt aware that there were influences on here
karl you are so right.
weeksy put your wooden spoon away
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 08:57
weeksy put your wooden spoon away
Sorry dad :)
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 09:02
OK, serious post time..
Think of the bigger picture guys.
Remember when Dom set up the DD forum, it was designed and implemented to take the bikering and the fighting away from DSC forum. However that seems to have fallen away and now it's all here 100% of the time.
Time after time riders have been told the correct procedure for questioning the RC and MT, however none of these procedures seem to have been adhered to. (or if they are, they seem to do the correct one, quickly followed by the incorrect way).
The people who are sponsoring the series and throwing money and support at the series are reading all of this (as are New Era) and must be wondering 'Why do we bother supporting this'
Add on top of that the post from Everton calling DSC a laughing stock in a quote from someone at OYB.... then surely you can see why they have taken this course of action.
DSC used to be a respected place, where people like Shazzam and Ducati officials, mechanics and sponsors would come to and join in, offer advice and give assistance....
now they sit there and laugh at it.
Why. ???
Well... when you answer that .... ask yourself why they can't post any more ?
dickieducati
12-Oct-2006, 09:16
OK, serious post time..
Time after time riders have been told the correct procedure for questioning the RC and MT, however none of these procedures seem to have been adhered to. (or if they are, they seem to do the correct one, quickly followed by the incorrect way).
The people who are sponsoring the series and throwing money and support at the series are reading all of this (as are New Era) and must be wondering 'Why do we bother supporting this'
Add on top of that the post from Everton calling DSC a laughing stock in a quote from someone at OYB.... then surely you can see why they have taken this course of action.
DSC used to be a respected place, where people like Shazzam and Ducati officials, mechanics and sponsors would come to and join in, offer advice and give assistance....
now they sit there and laugh at it.
Why. ???
Well... when you answer that .... ask yourself why they can't post any more ?
its not a point of questions being put to the MT/RC its about open discussion. anyone who puts something alternative forward to them, correct channels or not, have it thrown back at them.
lauging stock? i dont think so just beacause one person calls the DSC a laughing stock counts for nothing.
this latest action however wil definitely help.
i honestly cant understand the reasoning behind this. its an appauling decision.
....I wonder who instigated this then!!
Chass,
I put a proposal to ALL members of the MT on Monday for this moderation in the belief that the webteam/MT would get a hold load of ear-ache with members asking why the message board (which their subs are funding) was allowed to be used to promote what is in essence a competitor to the clubs own organised DD series.
I'm not sure whether that is the correct stance or not, but I didn't get anyone from the MT saying this was an inappropriate course of action.
The message board is paid for by the club members, the webteam administer it according to rules agreed at AGMs and MT meetings. If the club members disagree with this moderation and are happy for the potential promotion of other race series within their message board, then I apologise for interpreting the mood of the board incorrectly and will propose that the moderation is recinded with immediate effect.
If you would care to leave your opinions on this thread, I'll ensure the MT read them and review the situation.
Eamonn.
PMSL.... the webteam/MT need to grow up here it's a public forum open to anyone paid up members or not, if you didn't want to split ranks you've certainly got a very backwards way of showing it!!!!All I can say is that I'm glad I didn't renew my membership if my money is going to fund such childish actions.And you wonder why I barely post on here now, and last year I was the top poster who wasn't on the webteam/MT.......
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 09:32
And you wonder why I barely post on here now, and last year I was the top poster who wasn't on the webteam/MT.......
Nah.... i was always the top poster on DSC.... i had almost double the post count of any other member over last 3 years :)
OK, serious post time..
Think of the bigger picture guys.
Remember when Dom set up the DD forum, it was designed and implemented to take the bikering and the fighting away from DSC forum. However that seems to have fallen away and now it's all here 100% of the time.
Time after time riders have been told the correct procedure for questioning the RC and MT, however none of these procedures seem to have been adhered to. (or if they are, they seem to do the correct one, quickly followed by the incorrect way).
The people who are sponsoring the series and throwing money and support at the series are reading all of this (as are New Era) and must be wondering 'Why do we bother supporting this'
Add on top of that the post from Everton calling DSC a laughing stock in a quote from someone at OYB.... then surely you can see why they have taken this course of action.
DSC used to be a respected place, where people like Shazzam and Ducati officials, mechanics and sponsors would come to and join in, offer advice and give assistance....
now they sit there and laugh at it.
Why. ???
Well... when you answer that .... ask yourself why they can't post any more ?
Weeksy
Save ya breath mate, there's none so blind as those that don't want to see.
Its simple, behave like spoilt children.........get treated like spoilt children.
Don't like the "rules"? go and play another game, harsh??, ........maybe
Ray.
Hey below 5,000 post your opinion don't count.
Nah.... i was always the top poster on DSC.... i had almost double the post count of any other member over last 3 years :)
Goes to show there has been some improvements of late despite the recent bickering:lol:
alot goes on " behind " the scenes that casual viewers of the dd forum may not be aware off..............this i think is the reason behind the latest MT move......
i just worry this is going to go on and on...already lily,jpm are posting there dismay on a subject they dont have all the facts on..!!...now will they want the facts ...it goes on and on.....
*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh *
I'm neutral in all this.............i just want it all to go away..we are approaching 2007 ..cant we wipe the slate clean and move on ALL of us...and focus on the good and get ready for DD 2007.?
Phil
dickieducati
12-Oct-2006, 10:01
phil,
one question; would you be happy to go into DD07 wth the current RC?
Nah.... i was always the top poster on DSC.... i had almost double the post count of any other member over last 3 years :)
Obviously after taking into account the wise words of wisdom...........most of it was ....****!:lol:
everton
12-Oct-2006, 10:18
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I don't like this move, I don't like censorship of speech and opinion and I don't like some of the breath taking arrogance I see on this board.
The factions being created, egos being promoted and massaged, agendas being touted and vilified are ALL down to a few individuals whose primary consideration is DD and not the DSC.
Let's move the DD stuff to the DD board which Domski set up - that will solve Weeksy's (slightly edited) point – ‘i urge them to remove Dom from the DSC Board, that would sort 99% of the clubs' problem within 5 seconds’
It will take away a lot of the bickering that is mainly DD orientated.
Also those that have joined the DSC for DD and clearly don’t give a **** about the DSC can continue to whine away on that board
As for breathtaking arrogance;
‘lauging stock? i dont think so just beacause one person calls the DSC a laughing stock counts for nothing’.
It may not to you laddie but it counts a lot to me – especially when other people are in earshot and join in the conversation – why should I or any of us have to go on the defensive about the club – and, believe me, this wasn’t an isolated incident. While you are polishing your exhaust pipes some of us are still trying to get new members into the club.
Whele and I discussed running a DD team next year, I’ve been thinking about doing a bit of sponsorship – I saw Tim’s thread last night and thought I could help – guess what I have decided to do – you’re right nothing!
Let’s move DD to Domski’s board other than race reports and the schedule and get a link set up for dialogue from the main DSC board – I don’t want any of my subscription money being used to fund anything in DD please.
Finally please remove any moderation of anyone’s posting on this board. If the thread or post is DD related have it redirected to Domski or Domski’s board so they can continue their fights outside. I like the décor in here and I’d like it to stay undamaged please!
phil,
one question; would you be happy to go into DD07 wth the current RC?
yes..................IF they take on board some of what the majority of riders are saying and they appear to be doing just that..........
I dont care who runs it...as long as the agenda's are removed and the rules / regs suit the majoroty of the DD...........
im sure as a collective we can organise presentations/press pack etc to be arranged for 2007......maybe WE have to do it......
but YES i am happy to race in 2007 under the present RC if i choose to race in 2007
dickieducati
12-Oct-2006, 10:31
Let's move the DD stuff to the DD board which Domski set up -
It will take away a lot of the bickering that is mainly DD orientated.
Also those that have joined the DSC for DD and clearly don’t give a **** about the DSC can continue to whine away on that board
As for breathtaking arrogance;
‘lauging stock? i dont think so just beacause one person calls the DSC a laughing stock counts for nothing’.
It may not to you laddie but it counts a lot to me – especially when other people are in earshot and join in the conversation – why should I or any of us have to go on the defensive about the club – and, believe me, this wasn’t an isolated incident. While you are polishing your exhaust pipes some of us are still trying to get new members into the club.
Whele and I discussed running a DD team next year, I’ve been thinking about doing a bit of sponsorship – I saw Tim’s thread last night and thought I could help – guess what I have decided to do – you’re right nothing!
Let’s move DD to Domski’s board other than race reports and the schedule and get a link set up for dialogue from the main DSC board – I don’t want any of my subscription money being used to fund anything in DD please.
[COLOR=black]]
you seemed overjoyed when you had the option of DD or non DD in the todays post section but seem unable to use it.
breathtaking arrogance? hardly, was simply saying that just because one or even a few people think its is a laughing stock, there are plenty more out there who get into DSC purely because of DD.
why cant people just use the DSC for what they want? rideouts, meets, trips, dinner dances, bmf, DD etc. those that dont appeal dont get involved with. my main focus is DD at the moment, but i have done plenty of other activities and if i choose to stop doing DD i will do what other activities i fancy at the time. why cant other do the same.
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 11:26
Dickie,
are the riders who join DD really DSC members ???
How many of the Non DSC guys who've joined the series actually join in outside of the series... LEts pick a few at Random.... and NO, i'm not getting at them, just making a point....
Couchie
Lucy
Andy Johnson
Ian Leah
Stumpy
Geoff Spencer
Dom
Kyle
OK, how many ride outs have these guys been on ? how many have helped out with Pronto Articles ? How many were at Poham Megameet, how many at BMF stand ???
Most of the Non DSC riders who join the series are not 'members' in anything other than the fact they joined here to race in the series.
So by saying "there are plenty more out there who get into DSC purely because of DD" is sort of negating the point.
If what Everton says is true, that we are losing members from potentially joining the series, then this is a bad thing... surely....
?
you seemed overjoyed when you had the option of DD or non DD in the todays post section but seem unable to use it.
breathtaking arrogance? hardly, was simply saying that just because one or even a few people think its is a laughing stock, there are plenty more out there who get into DSC purely because of DD.
why cant people just use the DSC for what they want? rideouts, meets, trips, dinner dances, bmf, DD etc. those that dont appeal dont get involved with. my main focus is DD at the moment, but i have done plenty of other activities and if i choose to stop doing DD i will do what other activities i fancy at the time. why cant other do the same.
Well said Dickie.
Harv748
12-Oct-2006, 11:39
Dickie,
If what Everton says is true, that we are losing members from potentially joining the series, then this is a bad thing... surely....
?
It isn't a matter of what if Steve...its fact...its already happening.
Its often the case regarding DD that people outside of the series feel they are not allowed to voice an opinion on things relating to it because we are not racing in it and therefore it does not directly relate to us. Of course that is true to some degree...I mean, what do I care if you have 1 or 2 grids...don't give a hoot, but I do give a **** when members of the club are talking with their feet and their wallets.
You only have to look at the response on the other thread from just a few of the silent majority whom are becoming more and more fed up with it all.
If the DD forum was set up for this very reason, why can't it be used now? It appears to me that it was tried for a while...but there is only so many arguments people can have with themselves...so it all came back on here!
If the DD posts where all on the DD forum the DSC site would be a better place at the moment.
Why can't this be done...the DD community seemed quite happy with this arrangement 9 months ago?
It isn't a matter of what if Steve...its fact...its already happening.
Its often the case regarding DD that people outside of the series feel they are not allowed to voice an opinion on things relating to it because we are not racing in it and therefore it does not directly relate to us. Of course that is true to some degree...I mean, what do I care if you have 1 or 2 grids...don't give a hoot, but I do give a **** when members of the club are talking with their feet and their wallets.
You only have to look at the response on the other thread from just a few of the silent minority whom are becoming more and more fed up with it all.
If the DD forum was set up for this very reason, why can't it be used now? It appears to me that it was tried for a while...but there is only so many arguments people can have with themselves...so it all came back on here!
If the DD posts where all on the DD forum the DSC site would be a better place at the moment.
Why can't this be done...the DD community seemed quite happy with this arrangement 9 months ago?
It's obvious you forgot to press the write option button under todays posts
*edited to show quotes correctly - only - Frank
I can't believe we are resorting to this level of censorship.
And after we'd made such good progress - uncensoring the word bugger!
bugger bugger bugger bugger!!!!
Well this thread needs some humour ... I really do hope that we can reconsider this, despite the fact that we don't all agree on other things to resort to this is draconian. 1984 anyone?
Murray Mint
12-Oct-2006, 11:58
If the DD posts where all on the DD forum the DSC site would be a better place at the moment.
Why can't this be done...the DD community seemed quite happy with this arrangement 9 months ago?
I wasn't happy with the new forum I wanted it kept within the DSC site but ot only be viewed by DSC members only.
Harv748
12-Oct-2006, 12:02
Constructive reply Chass.
So how do you suggest we stop current/new members from leaving/not joining?
My opinion is that with winter coming and all of the internal wrangling that is bound to happen over the next 4-5 months regarding the structuring of DD...it could/should all be dealt with elsewhere...don't see whats wrong with that?
Well this thread needs some humour ... 1984 anyone?
1984 was a great year Tony, the summer of love when i was living in London, then swanning off round Europe on the bike for 3 months, charming all the foreign girlies, helping rid France of its wine lake, dossing on the beaches in Greece.
Oh and they was far less censorship, so maybe 1984 wasn't all that bad after all.
Weeksy, there are plenty who join just for 'one thing'
When I joined I was ONLY interested in meets & rideouts - as likewise quite a number of members still are.
AK was wanting to do trackdays, but he can 'take or leave' rideouts.
Many others never use the forum, but just do trackdays or just attend socials.
This is what makes a good eclectic mix in the club - it would be sad if everyone liked the same thing - imagine 600+ members ALL wanting to do the club only TD's, or the same number wanting to race.
Yes, Andy J joined to race - we asked him - he was happy to. Has posted a few times on here, and also given others quite a bit of help in the paddock - particularly last year - in setting up suspension etc, or tips for newbies.
I do agree things have to move on from this though (as I said yesterday) and I do think the club is big enough for everyone to get something (however large or small, however insular) out of it, though I do disagree with the draconian measures put into place this morning.
:) now, off to ride my bike in the sunshine:cool:
Constructive reply Chass.
So how do you suggest we stop current/new members from leaving/not joining?
My opinion is that with winter coming and all of the internal wrangling that is bound to happen over the next 4-5 months regarding the structuring of DD...it could/should all be dealt with elsewhere...don't see whats wrong with that?
Instead of just relocating the arguing etc, why don't we resolve the issues?
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 12:18
This has cost me a double thickness Nomex suit but hey it must be worth it.
I suggest that to put an end to this ongoing, non productive back and forth that we hold a meeting that is open to any DSC member interested in putting their points forward for proper discussion regarding the Desmo Due series. Not just a small group, not just the MT, not just the RC but ANY member with a true interest in putting this to bed.
We can resolve this even if it means a darn good row to clear the air. This isn't the place to do it and it isn't the only place we need to make the offer of a meeting. It will need to go into Pronto to be fair to all.
Anybody else got the will to do this and stop the bickering on these forums ? If not then I have to ask why not if you have the best interest of the club and DD at heart ?
We (DSC) will run the series again next year and at the outset the riders and those offering to help will all know what is expected of you, the RC will all know what is expected of them.
So. Copy and paste if you want to genuinely see it sorted !!!
Paul James
Harv748
12-Oct-2006, 12:25
Instead of just relocating the arguing etc, why don't we resolve the issues?
Absolutley 100%...
I can see two clear issues that need resolving here.
One is the fact that some of the DD participants clearly have issues with the RC and MT. What/why/right or wrong...I don't really give a **** as I don't race in the series. As far as I am concerned the DD'ers themselves and the MT/RC need to thrash this out AMONG THEMSELVES...go do that somewher else, not here.
The second is regards the public posting of dirty washing amonst racers etc...again, its just dones't need to be on here. What ever happened to someone picking up the frigin' telephone and just sorting it out! But ultimately, again, it needs to be sorted out amonst yourselves...not on here.
Simple really.
So who is going to grab the baton and sort ou the issues in point 1? And by that I mean not bleat more and more, but actually arrnage a meeting, take a vote, lobby for change...whatever is needed, but get some wheels in motion.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 12:28
Absolutley 100%...
I can see two clear issues that need resolving here.
One is the fact that the DD participants clearly have issues with the RC and MT. What/why/right or wrong...I don't really give a **** as I don't race in the series. As far as I am concerned the DD'ers themselves and the MT/RC need to thrash this out AMONG THEMSELVES...go do that somewher else, not here.
The second is regards the public posting of dirty washing amonst racers etc...again, its just dones't need to be on here. What ever happened to someone picking up the frigin' telephone and just sorting it out! But ultimately, again, it needs to be sorted out amonst yourselves...not on here.
Simple really.
So who is going to grab the baton and sort ou the issues in point 1? And by that I mean not bleat more and more, but actually arrnage a meeting, take a vote, lobby for change...whatever is needed, but get some wheels in motion.
Erm I guess I hit the "submit reply" button just ahead of you Harv ?
Guess I'm the guy with the baton ?
I genuinely want to see the issues sorted.
Paul James
Tony Perrin
I think Phil hit the nail on the head up there ^^^ Most of us don't actually have a clue about what the problem is so not certain I would want to attend a meeting to discuss something i don't know. On the other hand, i don't want to see DD or the DSC go pear shaped and I have a lot of respect for the racers, the people trying to organise one way or another as well as the general DSC.
How about a list of what the key issues are, what the official approach to resolving these should be and then a REAL approach to resolving them **
If they cannot be resolved for a genuine reason then all parties agree to let them lie and get on with the racing.
It is perfectly possible to do this in an adult and open manner within the DD section of this forum or the alternative DD forum.
One single thread that 'could' be moderated by a non involved individual to ensure that it does not get out of hand and there is no personal issues brought up. It could even be managed initially with the racers/others being allowed to send their comments/issues to the nominated individual then collated and posted for all to review before discussion is underway. This would allow the individual to go back to others for questioing or clarity of a point make sure it is unambiguous when posted.
**(without resorting to slanderous comments against individuals)
Absolutley 100%...
I can see two clear issues that need resolving here.
One is the fact that the DD participants clearly have issues with the RC and MT. What/why/right or wrong...I don't really give a **** as I don't race in the series. As far as I am concerned the DD'ers themselves and the MT/RC need to thrash this out AMONG THEMSELVES...go do that somewher else, not here.
The second is regards the public posting of dirty washing amonst racers etc...again, its just dones't need to be on here. What ever happened to someone picking up the frigin' telephone and just sorting it out! But ultimately, again, it needs to be sorted out amonst yourselves...not on here.
Simple really.
So who is going to grab the baton and sort ou the issues in point 1? And by that I mean not bleat more and more, but actually arrnage a meeting, take a vote, lobby for change...whatever is needed, but get some wheels in motion.
I've been through the correct channels and got belittled, condescended to etc etc ... I'm not going to put up with that.
But, I'm not going to press this any further. Paul is setting up a meeting, and I'll be there.
TP
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 12:36
I think Phil hit the nail on the head up there ^^^ Most of us don't actually have a clue about what the problem is so not certain I would want to attend a meeting to discuss something i don't know. On the other hand, i don't want to see DD or the DSC go pear shaped and I have a lot of respect for the racers, the people trying to organise one way or another as well as the general DSC.
How about a list of what the key issues are, what the official approach to resolving these should be and then a REAL approach to resolving them **
If they cannot be resolved for a genuine reason then all parties agree to let them lie and get on with the racing.
It is perfectly possible to do this in an adult and open manner within the DD section of this forum or the alternative DD forum.
One single thread that 'could' be moderated by a non involved individual to ensure that it does not get out of hand and there is no personal issues brought up. It could even be managed initially with the racers/others being allowed to send their comments/issues to the nominated individual then collated and posted for all to review before discussion is underway. This would allow the individual to go back to others for questioing or clarity of a point make sure it is unambiguous when posted.
**(without resorting to slanderous comments against individuals)
Great concept in an ideal world Lily but not everyone who has an opinion uses the forum, nor should they have to just to make their opinions known. Face to face has to be the best way, anybody with enough interest to try and improve things for the benefit of the next season won't mind coming to a meeting to sort it IMHO. It gives everyone an equal chance.
dickieducati
12-Oct-2006, 12:39
Paul James
Tony Perrin
dickie
Paul James
Tony Perrin
dickie
Rally
Actually PJ, I think you should start a new thread for meeting attendees. The title (and contents) of this one is likely to deter some interested parties from seeing the list.
(edit)
And I think there should be an publicised agenda for the meeting that is put forward by the members and moderated by an interested party who is not a member of the RC or MT.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:04
Actually PJ, I think you should start a new thread for meeting attendees. The title (and contents) of this one is likely to deter some interested parties from seeing the list.
(edit)
And I think there should be an publicised agenda for the meeting that is put forward by the members and moderated by an interested party who is not a member of the RC or MT.
We can publish an agenda if people want to email in their requirements, we just don't need to keep the arguing in open forum if we have a perfectly reasonable alternative.
Take your point and will do what you suggest but the main way of putting this idea out to ALL the members who may be interested is via Pronto. May have a chance of getting it in to the next issue if I get on to Ian right now.
And I think there should be an publicised agenda for the meeting that is put forward by the members and moderated by an interested party who is not a member of the RC or MT.
(edit) And the meeting Chaired by an interested party who is not a member of the RC or MT.
...
And I think there should be an publicised agenda for the meeting that is put forward by the members and moderated by an interested party who is not a member of the RC or MT.
Excellent idea, I hope that actually transpires.
Annette
12-Oct-2006, 13:10
I work in social housing. We have a small group of very vocal residents who turn up at every meeting full of hate and aggression. Ranting, raving and complaining. Genuine people with no gripes just don’t go. They’re happy. And if on the odd occasion one or two do turn up, they’ll only do so the once. It’s not a forum I’d voluntarily go to. This small handful of people – probably about 10 people out of a stock of many thousands of homes (I can name every one of them) – generate a huge amount of work for us and much unrest and unhappiness amongst the majority of our lovely, happy residents and staff. If they have an idea, in their opinion it’s 100% right. No two ways about it. They don’t need proof. They haven’t thought about the knock on effect it may have. They know! They bang on and on about the same issue, saying they’re not being listened to; that there’s conspiracy against them; hate campaigns; you name it. They think we’re terrible; horrible people for what they perceive, not listening to them. After a lengthy process we eventually go to independent mediators and put the matter to rest. Hey presto, up pops another issue the next day. Surprise, surprise they even want to be on committees and management groups. You’ve all met them. They’re in all warps of life. But you wouldn’t put them in a position of trust or management if they were the last person on earth. They haven’t got the tools for the job.
The MT will never please all of the people all of the time. There are a handful of people that, in their opinion, will always know better, do better, whatever. Deeply upsetting for the majority but that’s just the way the World is put together.
Thanks MT for 3 years of fun and good times, and many more to come. x
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:11
(edit) And the meeting Chaired by an interested party who is not a member of the RC or MT.
Good idea in theory but requires someone with no ties from either perspective who is viewed as being "neutral", specifically regarding DD. Whoever it is will have to ensure that all the DD related points are listened to, everybody with a genuine interest will be there so its hardly going to be cloak and dagger is it.
I suggest Eamonn as although he is on the MT he is not controversial and is well respected. (won't be getting a Chrimbo card from him this year then :rolleyes: )
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 13:14
Good idea in theory but requires someone with no ties from either perspective who is viewed as being "neutral", specifically regarding DD. Whoever it is will have to ensure that all the DD related points are listened to, everybody with a genuine interest will be there so its hardly going to be cloak and dagger is it.
I suggest Eamonn as although he is on the MT he is not controversial and is well respected. (won't be getting a Chrimbo card from him this year then :rolleyes: )
Me ?
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:17
I work in social housing. We have a small group of very vocal residents who turn up at every meeting full of hate and aggression. Ranting, raving and complaining. Genuine people with no gripes just don’t go. They’re happy. And if on the odd occasion one or two do turn up, they’ll only do so the once. It’s not a forum I’d voluntarily go to. This small handful of people – probably about 10 people out of a stock of many thousands of homes (I can name every one of them) – generate a huge amount of work for us and much unrest and unhappiness amongst the majority of our lovely, happy residents and staff. If they have an idea, in their opinion it’s 100% right. No two ways about it. They don’t need proof. They haven’t thought about the knock on effect it may have. They know! They bang on and on about the same issue, saying they’re not being listened to; that there’s conspiracy against them; hate campaigns; you name it. They think we’re terrible; horrible people for what they perceive, not listening to them. After a lengthy process we eventually go to independent mediators and put the matter to rest. Hey presto, up pops another issue the next day. Surprise, surprise they even want to be on committees and management groups. You’ve all met them. They’re in all warps of life. But you wouldn’t put them in a position of trust or management if they were the last person on earth. They haven’t got the tools for the job.
The MT will never please all of the people all of the time. There are a handful of people that, in their opinion, will always know better, do better, whatever. Deeply upsetting for the majority but that’s just the way the World is put together.
Thanks MT for 3 years of fun and good times, and many more to come. x
Interesting analogy, the people you refer to all have a roof over their heads and are generally looked after. The system works for the vast, appreciative majority. If you asked many of those contented people what all the fuss was about they would probably not have a clue. They would be happily living in their house, with a roof over their heads and being generally looked after.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:19
Me ?
I'm just off out to walk my dog :rolleyes: :) :)
Anybody wanting to put their name on the interested in attending list could you use the specific DD meeting thread please.
PJ
I would offer to Chair depending on when and where the meeting is held. I would suggest that it may be worth having a small 'panel' of independents to help resolve this as it will be one heck of a bun fight from what I can work out and it may be a challenge for one person.
If it was organised I would suggest a panel of DSC members that could resolve this including Eamon, Gizmo, myself and maybe another.
Good idea in theory but requires someone with no ties from either perspective who is viewed as being "neutral", specifically regarding DD.
Ah, well there's the rub. But it's not an impossible task to find somebody... if there is the will...
Whoever it is will have to ensure that all the DD related points are listened to, everybody with a genuine interest will be there so its hardly going to be cloak and dagger is it.
I suggest Eamonn as although he is on the MT he is not controversial and is well respected.
Except... that disregards the apparent level of suspicion from some of the participants. If you are going to do this, it would be worthless if it could be accused of being a white wash - that the MT manipulated the agenda. It's not a question of would or wouldn't - as long as both parties have faith in the transparency of the independent Chair and as long as the Chair is not a member of the MT.
philthy
12-Oct-2006, 13:27
(edit) And the meeting Chaired by an interested party who is not a member of the RC or MT.
From what I've seen on here you need Madmav to chair it with a few of his mates as ' moderators ':lol:
I would offer to Chair depending on when and where the meeting is held. I would suggest that it may be worth having a small 'panel' of independents to help resolve this as it will be one heck of a bun fight from what I can work out and it may be a challenge for one person.
If it was organised I would suggest a panel of DSC members that could resolve this including Eamon, Gizmo, myself and maybe another.
An excellent idea methinks. And some good choices in personnel.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:32
Ah, well there's the rub. But it's not an impossible task to find somebody... if there is the will...
Except... that disregards the apparent level of suspicion from some of the participants. If you are going to do this, it would be worthless if it could be accused of being a white wash - that the MT manipulated the agenda. It's not a question of would or wouldn't - as long as both parties have faith in the transparency of the independent Chair and as long as the Chair is not a member of the MT.
We run the risk of blowing this out of proportion and it ending up unworkable. It's a simple get together that ANY member can attend, we can put an agenda together BUT it might be as well to just let people from the floor raise a question then answer them as they are raised. We can take minutes then publish the outcome in next Pronto.
The MT have no interest in manipulating the agenda, the meeting would be pointless if that was the case.
Might sound haphazzard but it does work I can assure you. NOBODY will be shouted down or their views stifled thee wouldn't be a point in doing it otherwise.
It is only October so we do have the luxury of time on our side before the start of next season.
It seems to against the very point of having the meeting in the first place to put an MT member as chair. No offence to Eamonn, I have a lot of respect for the man.
For the sake of transparency and goodwill I would suggest that people who nominate themselves to chair be voted on by the people who are planning on attending.
Then we have a fair democratic process with no comeback on anyone.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:47
It seems to against the very point of having the meeting in the first place to put an MT member as chair. No offence to Eamonn, I have a lot of respect for the man.
For the sake of transparency and goodwill I would suggest that people who nominate themselves to chair be voted on by the people who are planning on attending.
Then we have a fair democratic process with no comeback on anyone.
Fair enough, agree with that.
Paul, it's your idea - you don't have to have a meeting. The RC can run the series any way they like and the competitors can choose whether to race in DD or elsewhere. But if the MT/RC is genuine in wanting to sort out the issues raised on the DD forum and elsewhere, I respectfully suggest you make it as transparrent as possible - IMHO, that means a non MT chair.
I'd like to point out that I personally don't have any axe to grind but it's clear others do. I'm as eager as anyone to stop the bickering and make my suggestions in that light.
no comment on my suggestion?
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:49
Paul, it's your idea - you don't have to have a meeting. The RC can run the series any way they like and the competitors can choose whether to race in DD or elsewhere. But if the MT/RC is genuine in wanting to sort out the issues raised on the DD forum and elsewhere, I respectfully suggest you make it as transparrent as possible - IMHO, that means a non MT chair.
I'd like to point out that I personally don't have any axe to grind but it's clear others do. I'm as eager as anyone to stop the bickering and make my suggestions in that light.
Will you stop posting at the same time as me !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 13:53
no comment on my suggestion?
Sorry, thought I'd covered my thoughts on that in my general reply to Rallys comments. This is all at the discussion stage and yes we DO wanmt to sort this all out.
It is fundamental to our club going forward rather than being continually dragged back by negativity.
ChrisBushell
12-Oct-2006, 13:54
Rather than this thread go forward as above, we have an MT meeting this Saturday I will put this item on the agenda and come back to people shortly with a decision on how the meeting might be constituted.
Chris
Club Secretary
Chris
Forgive me if I am wrong, but Paul's initial suggestion was to provide an open meeting that allowed the DD and the DSC to suggest a format and to meet freely to discuss the issues and get a resolution.
By taking it offline immediately and making the 'decision on how it might be constituted' one that is made by the MT it is not going to assist in the open and honest approach.
People have put forward a number of ideas and you have a number of volunteers, what it needs now is organising and actioning, not debating behind closed doors.
Chris
Forgive me if I am wrong, but Paul's initial suggestion was to provide an open meeting that allowed the DD and the DSC to suggest a format and to meet freely to discuss the issues and get a resolution.
By taking it offline immediately and making the 'decision on how it might be constituted' one that is made by the MT it is not going to assist in the open and honest approach.
People have put forward a number of ideas and you have a number of volunteers, what it needs now is organising and actioning, not debating behind closed doors.
* sigh *.....................
dickieducati
12-Oct-2006, 14:02
People have put forward a number of ideas and you have a number of volunteers, what it needs now is organising and actioning, not debating behind closed doors.
ah........now you get it! see a pattern emerging?
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 14:19
ah........now you get it! see a pattern emerging?
Ae you sure this is a helpful and constuctive comment Richard ?
Do you have any real wish to be involved in an open process to bring harmony ?
You've put your name down to attend so why not spend some time noting down what you'd like discussed ?
ALL items raised will be discussed. ALL questions put forward to the survey were included......oh apart in honesty from yours "what is your favourite chees ?" So if anybody feels that leaving that out was a disgrace I publicly apologise here and now.
dickieducati
12-Oct-2006, 14:32
Ae you sure this is a helpful and constuctive comment Richard ?
.
about as constructive as chris's.
the MT/RC just dont get it do they?
i dont care any more. its a complete farce.
Im independant, ill go along with Lilys theory and offer my hat in to the ring!
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 14:36
about as constructive as chris's.
the MT/RC just dont get it do they?
i dont care any more. its a complete farce.
So how can holding an open meeting to which all members are invited be that ?
If anyone doesn't get a hearing then they can come and make a fuss here can't they ?
It's all out in the open, it's my suggestion and if you people want to do it we can.
If you can't be bothered then that has to be your personal choice.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 14:37
Im independant, ill go along with Lilys theory and offer my hat in to the ring!
Is that an offer to "police" the event then Andy :o
Im quite good at not having the wool pulled over my eyes!
Is that an offer to "police" the event then Andy :o
good cop bad cop... :)
can I be the baddy please ;)
Honestly though, you now have a few volunteers to chair and moderate the meeting.
Get people to send in thier points to be discussed in advance but also allow and open forum at some point during the meeting.
Individuals should be allowed to raise points from 2006 that they feel have not been addressed but these should be factual and not personal. The floor have the opportunity to answer but the moderators control the discussion if necessary. This should not be the main focus of the meeting other than to use hindsight to improve things going forward.
If people are not allowed their chance to speak in an open forum they will continue to cause issues on the forum and behind closed doors, this is not good for the club or for DD.
Once this has been done the rest of the meeting can focus on the best way forward for 2007 and ensure actions are put in place to action any necessar changes.
No fighting, no dwelling on the past, just an open and honest discussion about improving the DD for next year.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 14:47
good cop bad cop... :)
can I be the baddy please ;)
Honestly though, you now have a few volunteers to chair and moderate the meeting.
Get people to send in thier points to be discussed in advance but also allow and open forum at some point during the meeting.
Individuals should be allowed to raise points from 2006 that they feel have not been addressed but these should be factual and not personal. The floor have the opportunity to answer but the moderators control the discussion if necessary. This should not be the main focus of the meeting other than to use hindsight to improve things going forward.
If people are not allowed their chance to speak in an open forum they will continue to cause issues on the forum and behind closed doors, this is not good for the club or for DD.
Once this has been done the rest of the meeting can focus on the best way forward for 2007 and ensure actions are put in place to action any necessar changes.
No fighting, no dwelling on the past, just an open and honest discussion about improving the DD for next year.
Exactly !!!!!!
Oh and beer drinking, you seem to have missed that off :frog:
stumpy1
12-Oct-2006, 14:52
No fighting, no dwelling on the past, just an open and honest discussion about improving the DD for next year.
can see that really going well, once a few people have had a few shandy.......
This is better than Corrie, it's laughable to be honest!!! I'll offer myself, no connection with DD or MT and not even a member.... although I'm guessing there's more chance of Elvis turning up in 583 next year.Imagine if Hitler had the web back in WWII I doubt it would be much different to this.
can see that really going well, once a few people have had a few shandy.......
that's the whole point of having the run and moderated by impartial, independent individuals that have nothing to gain from either side.
People should try to be positive about trying to resolve this for the future of DD and DSC
This is better than Corrie, it's laughable to be honest!!! I'll offer myself, no connection with DD or MT and not even a member.... although I'm guessing there's more chance of Elvis turning up in 583 next year.Imagine if Hitler had the web back in WWII I doubt it would be much different to this.
Oy you butt out...............Im Brian!
stumpy1
12-Oct-2006, 14:57
that's the whole point of having the run and moderated by impartial, independent individuals that have nothing to gain from either side.
People should try to be positive about trying to resolve this for the future of DD and DSC
I am...2006 season is over.....so lets just work out how the dsc people can make 2007 better!!
agreed Stumpy, however until certain issues are aired and put to bed some individuals will feel that 2007 will not be any better.
You don't have to dwell on things to put them in the open, discus them and move on.
If this is controlled then there is no reason for this to drag up old issues that are history and cannot be changed. It may however be chance for a wider audience to understand why certain changes are proposed forr 2007.
Dickie,
are the riders who join DD really DSC members ???
How many of the Non DSC guys who've joined the series actually join in outside of the series... LEts pick a few at Random.... and NO, i'm not getting at them, just making a point....
Couchie
Lucy...
OK, how many ride outs have these guys been on ?
This year, I would suggest one, maybe two events more than you've been on ;) Unless you know otherwise.
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 15:09
agreed Stumpy, however until certain issues are aired and put to bed some individuals will feel that 2007 will not be any better.
You don't have to dwell on things to put them in the open, discus them and move on.
If this is controlled then there is no reason for this to drag up old issues that are history and cannot be changed. It may however be chance for a wider audience to understand why certain changes are proposed forr 2007.
Balance is the key to this. It will happen if the will to do it is there. If not and people with their own agendas continue to whittle on the forums we have every right to question why don't we ?
If I may be so bold ...
IMO the key to this is not trying to control what people can and can't say. Lets have EVERYTHING out in the open, dealt with, resolved and we can all move on.
Transparency transparency transparency ....
bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger :lol: :lol:
If I may be so bold ...
IMO the key to this is not trying to control what people can and can't say. Lets have EVERYTHING out in the open, dealt with, resolved and we can all move on.
Transparency transparency transparency ....
bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger :lol: :lol:
Tony, you will have to have some control as certain people will never be satisfied with some answers and there are some things that will not or cannot have a resolution, they are just things that took place. Yes they can be explained but they cannot be changed.
It's the chance to ask for explantion if required, but not to bully or throw personal insults if something/someone does not agree with you.
In your line of work you must come across this regularly and things are discussed and then people move on and try not to repeat the same mistakes.
Tony, you will have to have some control as certain people will never be satisfied with some answers and there are some things that will not or cannot have a resolution, they are just things that took place. Yes they can be explained but they cannot be changed.
It's the chance to ask for explantion if required, but not to bully or throw personal insults if something/someone does not agree with you.
In your line of work you must come across this regularly and things are discussed and then people move on and try not to repeat the same mistakes.
Easy Lily! I haven't said anything to contradict what you've said here! I think it's fair enough.
Contrary to popular belief, it's not a witch hunt for me. I know things can't be changed I just want to make sure they aren't repeated and we can't really do that without knowing the real story.
That's all :)
This is better than Corrie, it's laughable to be honest!!! I'll offer myself, no connection with DD or MT and not even a member.... although I'm guessing there's more chance of Elvis turning up in 583 next year.Imagine if Hitler had the web back in WWII I doubt it would be much different to this.
Nah.........Dads army Hodges V Captain mainwaring, give me a bit longer and I'll do the casting:D
Ray
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 15:28
Easy Lily! I haven't said anything to contradict what you've said here! I think it's fair enough.
Contrary to popular belief, it's not a witch hunt for me. I know things can't be changed I just want to make sure they aren't repeated and we can't really do that without knowing the real story.
That's all :)
Have to agree and at least this meeting is open to all members.
It won't just be the riders with questions they want answered, I'm sure some on the MT will raise some as well, I know I've got a few.
Ideal chance to clear the air IMHO.
Fascinating,
can someone explain in real simple terms what's going on?
Have we forgot(and I came in a lot later) put me right if i'm wrong please!
1, Three or four guys set up a club off the back of another club (when things like this started to go on).
2,Those 3 0r 4 guys put a lot of hardwork into making this club work!
3, members pay to join,
4, some members then want to become managers of the club and change it! (once all the hard work has been done)
5, The members who cant change things into what and how they want the club to be, start crying!
6 The members of the club want to go racing?
7 The club then seems to become a DD club
8 The non racing members get upset and ****ed off ! (not suprisingly)
MT RC MRC WMPT what a load of B.o.l.o.x
It's a furking bike club
The people make it work !
Mavs simple solution (because i'm simple)
DD is now a proven enterty ( New DD club needed) funded by DD racers and sponsers.
DSC Bike club funded by DSC members who should have a say where and how the subscriptions are spent !
Freedom of speach unless it's a personal insult (moderators job)
acces all area's by means of membership !
Otherwise you only get to read posts and not reply!
(and yes I have sent my membership form back with payment!)
I think 2 things might happen !
1, loads of new members or
2, No club .
wadaya think?
uncle mav
Tonio600
12-Oct-2006, 16:04
I surprisingly agree with the above.
To me DD should be run by "a branch" of the DSC, a club within the club. Let's call it the DDSC just the time of my explaination.
The DDSC would be owned by the DSC. Any member of the DDSC would automatically be a member of the DSC, but it wouldn't work the other way round (like DSC and DOC...).
When new members join, they've got the choice of giving their dosh to the DSC or the DDSC, whether they care or not about the racing stuff. In that way DSC members would be sure their money has nothing to see with the racing, even if I believe it's already the case today.
Then members of the DDSC (racers, bike owners, fans, people who care about the racing stuff) would elect a Racing Committe. I don't think there would be the need of an MT, unlike for the DSC. The DDSC RC would deal with all the racing issues, the DSC MT dealing with the club's other issues.
And if one day things go wrong for any reason, the DSC MT has power to stop DD overnight by destroying the DDSC.
In that way, I can see:
- no breakaway from the DSC,
- no commitment towards DD from the DSC members who don't want,
- help for DD from the DSC members who do want,
- an MT running a bike club,
- an RC running a racing club.
Couldn't that work and please everybody?
weeksyracing
12-Oct-2006, 16:08
Amazingly enough fella... that was pretty much what i said at the meeting on Sauturday night and the 'Evo group' agreed to.
All the riders present were more than happy with that.
couchcommando
12-Oct-2006, 16:09
I surprisingly agree with the above.
To me DD should be run by "a branch" of the DSC, a club within the club. Let's call it the DDSC just the time of my explaination.
The DDSC would be owned by the DSC. Any member of the DDSC would automatically be a member of the DSC, but it wouldn't work the other way round (like DSC and DOC...).
When new members join, they've got the choice of giving their dosh to the DSC or the DDSC, whether they care or not about the racing stuff. In that way DSC members would be sure their money has nothing to see with the racing, even if I believe it's already the case today.
Then members of the DDSC (racers, bike owners, fans, people who care about the racing stuff) would elect a Racing Committe. I don't think there would be the need of an MT, unlike for the DSC. The DDSC RC would deal with all the racing issues, the DSC MT dealing with the club's other issues.
And if one day things go wrong for any reason, the DSC MT has power to stop DD overnight by destroying the DDSC.
In that way, I can see:
- no breakaway from the DSC,
- no commitment towards DD from the DSC members who don't want,
- help for DD from the DSC members who do want,
- an MT running a bike club,
- an RC running a racing club.
Couldn't that work and please everybody?
I like that but it's far too simple and easy to ever happen.
I agree, a great idea.
not really a great idea tony !
just some good old fashioned common sence !
mav
sounds like a well known Monty Python sketch to me - committee's, meetings about meetings, censorship, the pfJ, the jpf . . . . blah blah blah
race or ride - its that simple isnt it?
ego is the word - the undooer of all things that were good!
Khushy
btw - my name's Brian!!!
I surprisingly agree with the above.
To me DD should be run by "a branch" of the DSC, a club within the club. Let's call it the DDSC just the time of my explaination.
The DDSC would be owned by the DSC. Any member of the DDSC would automatically be a member of the DSC, but it wouldn't work the other way round (like DSC and DOC...).
When new members join, they've got the choice of giving their dosh to the DSC or the DDSC, whether they care or not about the racing stuff. In that way DSC members would be sure their money has nothing to see with the racing, even if I believe it's already the case today.
Then members of the DDSC (racers, bike owners, fans, people who care about the racing stuff) would elect a Racing Committe. I don't think there would be the need of an MT, unlike for the DSC. The DDSC RC would deal with all the racing issues, the DSC MT dealing with the club's other issues.
And if one day things go wrong for any reason, the DSC MT has power to stop DD overnight by destroying the DDSC.
In that way, I can see:
- no breakaway from the DSC,
- no commitment towards DD from the DSC members who don't want,
- help for DD from the DSC members who do want,
- an MT running a bike club,
- an RC running a racing club.
Couldn't that work and please everybody?
Don't see why not Tonio-interesting ideas bring them to the meeting?
John
If I may be so bold ...
IMO the key to this is not trying to control what people can and can't say. Lets have EVERYTHING out in the open, dealt with, resolved and we can all move on.
Transparency transparency transparency ....
bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger bugger :lol: :lol:
I may have to ask Eamonn to reinstate the filter if you are going to keep using that word young Perrin-now sit in the corner on the naughty chair.:lol:
John
Noooooooooo!!!!!!! :D
Room for a little one? :p
bugger
Tonio600
12-Oct-2006, 17:01
Don't see why not Tonio-interesting ideas bring them to the meeting?
I'll definitely try to be there. I do want the club to be as it was when I first joined it.
What about holding the meeting in Dorking? Sound central enough to me :lol:
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 17:08
I'll definitely try to be there. I do want the club to be as it was when I first joined it.
What about holding the meeting in Dorking? Sound central enough to me :lol:
Never going to organise it to be close to everyone but I thought Postcombe would be fairly central ? They have a room we could use.
http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=470000.264847204&Y=200000.881246215&width=700&height=400&gride=471195.264847204&gridn=199660.881246215&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=&inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=true&zm=1&scale=200000&multimap.x=362&multimap.y=161
fairly central ?
:lol:
although I guess at least it's near to a motorway so accessible may be a better description than Central ;)
Well put Young Mav and Petit-Jeune Tonio.
You are both describing a step on the 'evolution' path that the huge majority voted for at cadwell.
I'll happily give you a lift to the meeting btw tonio.
Of course you are having a laugh, arn't you Paul ?
Sounds reasonable to me !
Nice and near a motorway.
It takes me an hour to get to the nearest motorway cos there are so many speed limits and villages dahn sarf.
I guess it'll be 1.5 - 2 hour drive for me / tonio / murray.
Tonio600
12-Oct-2006, 17:28
Postcombe sounds good to me... I guess I wouldn't like the idea as much if I was a Northerner...
I'll happily give you a lift to the meeting btw tonio.
I'll be pleased to accept Phill :)
Let's get things moving forward with that meeting.
I DO hope everybody concerned will be present, by that I mean the current MT/RC but also people whose opinions differ the most from those of the current MT/RC (the "evo" group). Otherwise it will just be pointless if only neutral people like me attend. And boring. :lol:
Of course you are having a laugh, arn't you Paul ?
You'd hope so Ian not exactly central to people is it!!!Have it at knockhill instead........
Sounds reasonable to me !
Nice and near a motorway.
It takes me an hour to get to the nearest motorway cos there are so many speed limits and villages dahn sarf.
I guess it'll be 1.5 - 2 hour drive for me / tonio / murray.
probably about 4 - 4.5 for Ian if he gets a 'great' run hence his reply I would imagine... :lol:
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 17:43
Postcombe sounds good to me... I guess I wouldn't like the idea as much if I was a Northerner...
I'll be pleased to accept Phill :)
Let's get things moving forward with that meeting.
I DO hope everybody concerned will be present, by that I mean the current MT/RC but also people whose opinions differ the most from those of the current MT/RC (the "evo" group). Otherwise it will just be pointless if only neutral people like me attend. And boring. :lol:
But less interruption of the drinking !!.
i think this is as central as it gets! excluding scotland and wales
sorry boys
http://www.covkid.org.uk/page50.html
good roads to and from
Scooter916
12-Oct-2006, 18:04
i think this is as central as it gets! excluding scotland and wales
sorry boys
http://www.covkid.org.uk/page50.html
good roads to and from
Yea thats a bit more central than errr The south.
If its in cov i have a chance of being there, if its postcombe ferkin forget it.
Glyn
Paul James
12-Oct-2006, 18:26
Yea thats a bit more central than errr The south.
If its in cov i have a chance of being there, if its postcombe ferkin forget it.
Glyn
Right then......... Everybody who wants to attend send me your postcode and we'll work out where the most central point is from that. No point considering the wild extremities of the country if people aren't travelling from them is there ? Hows that ?
Thinks.............just need to get Shazzam and that guy from Switzerland to sign up to it and we can have a nice weekend jolly to Lanzarotte :D :D
just checking i haven't been embroiled or implicated .... i am normally .. :(
seems very dictatorial.
oh, and JPM for President ....
Noooooooooo!!!!!!! :D
Room for a little one? :p
bugger
SAy it in a northern accent Tony, that'll fool any filter, so try bugga instead
Iconic944ss
13-Oct-2006, 09:14
Apologies for going off topic but despite requests to add 'bugger' to the swear filter there are perfectly ligitimate uses for the word, so well done with your use of French language - Tonio will be proud of you.
Definition with thanks to http://www.wikipedia.org
Bugger
Etymology
From Old French bougre, originally meaning "heretic (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/heretic)" from the Medieval Latin Bulgarus meaning Bulgarian (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bulgarian) (seen as heretics because they were not of the Catholic faith, but Eastern Orthodox Christians).
Transitive verb
to bugger (buggered)
(slang, vulgar) to have anal (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/anal) intercourse (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/intercourse) with someone
(slang, coarse) to ruin (something) This computer is buggered!Translations
French: empaffer (http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=empaffer&action=edit) (1)Noun
bugger
(slang, coarse) an insulting term for a person or thingTranslation
Spanish: majadero (http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=majadero&action=edit), jodón (http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=jod%C3%B3n&action=edit), fregón (http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=freg%C3%B3n&action=edit), fastidio (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fastidio)Interjection
bugger!
(slang, coarse) expressing annoyance Oh bugger!
Tonio600
13-Oct-2006, 09:24
:lol:
bulgarian that! ;)
Oh merde-this board is going all european.:lol:
John
Interesting that the Spanish have four different words for bugger. Makes you wonder why that is ... ;)
weeksyracing
13-Oct-2006, 11:46
Interesting that the Spanish have four different words for bugger. Makes you wonder why that is ... ;)
Ruben Xaus is Spanish... they'll make another 2 words for him next year.
Ruben Xaus is Spanish... they'll make another 2 words for him next year.
"World Champion"? That would be nice!
psychlist
16-Oct-2006, 12:06
Chass,
I put a proposal to ALL members of the MT on Monday for this moderation
Not true Eamonn! I didnt know anything about it until I got a text message from Chris Bushell on Wednesday.
Can you also explain how/why the contents of certain of my PM's "Personal/Private Messages" have been passed to either Chris Bushell, Paul James or Ian Allgar?
Not true Eamonn! I didnt know anything about it until I got a text message from Chris Bushell on Wednesday.
Can you also explain how/why the contents of certain of my PM's "Personal/Private Messages" have been passed to either Chris Bushell, Paul James or Ian Allgar?
Can the moderator read PM's
Not true Eamonn! I didnt know anything about it until I got a text message from Chris Bushell on Wednesday.
Can you also explain how/why the contents of certain of my PM's "Personal/Private Messages" have been passed to either Chris Bushell, Paul James or Ian Allgar?
blimey Paul:o
this is why AK & I do not use PM's any more:mad:
Email only, as those are still reasonably private
Hope you had a good hol mate - looking fowards to seeing the sun tan:cool:
Twinfan
16-Oct-2006, 12:12
Can you also explain how/why the contents of certain of my PM's "Personal/Private Messages" have been passed to either Chris Bushell, Paul James or Ian Allgar?
That's bang out of order :mad:
...
Can you also explain how/why the contents of certain of my PM's "Personal/Private Messages" have been passed to either Chris Bushell, Paul James or Ian Allgar?
Hmmm ... this is an accusation concerning something a lot more serious than who is allowed to post what ...
Not true Eamonn! I didnt know anything about it until I got a text message from Chris Bushell on Wednesday.
Paul, an email was sent out.
Can you also explain how/why the contents of certain of my PM's "Personal/Private Messages" have been passed to either Chris Bushell, Paul James or Ian Allgar?
Can you be more specific about your allegation?
Can the moderator read PM's
Yes, as Dom quite correctly pointed out a couple of weeks ago the webteam have access to all areas of the database. Someone has to have access in order to do the necessary moderation tasks of both messages on the boards as well as messages sent through the PM system.
Both areas are subject to the same rules and regs as stated in the "Forum rules" section seen on the menu bar above.
Yes, as Dom quite correctly pointed out a couple of weeks ago the webteam have access to all areas of the database. Someone has to have access in order to do the necessary moderation tasks of both messages on the boards as well as messages sent through the PM system.
Both areas are subject to the same rules and regs as stated in the "Forum rules" section seen on the menu bar above.
Not PRIVATE MESSAGES then (note to self use email) so that's how mt/rc sneak in then reading is one thing passing on info is another matter.
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 13:11
PM = Public Message !
I have stayed out of all arguments and discussions so far but have to comment on this.
They are called 'private messages'. They should be the private concern of sender and recipient unless one or other shares the contents with another party. IMO moderators should not be looking in 'private messages'.
They are called 'private messages'. They should be the private concern of sender and recipient unless one or other shares the contents with another party. IMO moderators should not be looking in 'private messages'.
Completely agree. I wasn't aware of this either until Dom pointed it out to me a couple of weeks ago.
weeksyracing
16-Oct-2006, 13:24
Depends what's in them...
i had an exceptionally violent, abusive and hurtful PM from [a member] last week, i was insulted, verbally abused and ridiculed....
the MT were aware of this by the time i reported it to them.... i don't see this as a bad thing.
If you were really bothered, you could and would have forwarded it to one of the moderators, they don't need to police 'private' conversations if the users don't want them looked at IMO.
I can't beleive this is happening, I believe thatto look at pm's requires a specific query of the database as I am not aware of any setting or option in the vbulletin admin control panel /software which allows this. No mention is made in the FAQ (http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_vb_pm_explain) section that messages are not private!!
I can't beleive this is happening, I believe thatto look at pm's requires a specific query of the database as I am not aware of any setting or option in the vbulletin admin control panel /software which allows this. No mention is made in the FAQ (http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_vb_pm_explain) section that messages are not private!!
gizmo, your bloody mobile phone aint private anymore !
Big brother,
mav
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 13:38
Misrepresentation ?
It clearly states private messages in the box in the right hand corner of my screen - and they are not ?
Tsk Tsk :rolleyes:
Redruth
16-Oct-2006, 13:39
I think it is absolutely appalling that PMs are not private. There is NO justification for that abuse of privacy. If they're not private, then take the facility off the board. It's a complete misnoma and an absolute outrage for the MT to think they are entitled to look at them under the guise of 'moderation'. It does, however, explain an e-mail I had from Ian last week.
The MT is given it's powers by the members. This is an outright abuse of that power, in my opinion, and an insult to everyone who uses the board.
If an abusive PM is received by any club member, then fair enough, report it to the MT and ask them to look into it, but carte blanche to look at every member's PMs on that pretext??? This, as so many people have said already, is Big Brother stuff and pretty much the last straw for me as far as this board is concerned.
weeksyracing
16-Oct-2006, 13:41
If you were really bothered, you could and would have forwarded it to one of the moderators, they don't need to police 'private' conversations if the users don't want them looked at IMO.
i Did Luce... within about 3 seconds of reading it myself
i Did Luce... within about 3 seconds of reading it myself
Exactly, so I really don't see any valid reason for mods to need to look at them. We're all grown ups, though it might not always seem so, and are perfectly capable of letting the right people know when action should be taken regarding 'private' matters :rolleyes:
Can a member of the webteam or MT please point out which part of the forum rules allows the viewing of PMs and whether this is open to the webteam only or all of the MT.
Please can you also provide guidance on the methods used for checking PM content. Is this a random check across all forum members, a specific check against specific memebers or are all PMs checked?
Thanks
weeksyracing
16-Oct-2006, 13:47
Can a member of the webteam or MT please point out which part of the forum rules allows the viewing of PMs and whether this is open to the webteam only or all of the MT.
Please can you also provide guidance on the methods used for checking PM content. Is this a random check across all forum members, a specific check against specific memebers or are all PMs checked?
Thanks
[x] should have been a PM
;)
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 13:49
Can I ask if data protection comes into this :confused:
It's all gone quiet...that seems to happen when too many questions are posed ;)
It does, however, explain an e-mail I had from Ian last week.
er, - don't think it does, the e-mail I sent to you (and others) had nothing to do with PM's, - it was about the difficult time that the club is going through. - Now if you are saying that there is something in your inbox that we should be aware of........JOKE.
The sad reality is that there is a high degree of mistrust within the club, - certain people have not trusted the MT for some time, - and certain members of the club have not been trusted by the MT. SHOCK!!! I have seen the lies and stirring that goes on through U2U’s, - last year I had u2u’s forwarded to me and I still have copies of a few where a person was looking for support in a breakaway series of DesmoDue. Can I justify having read those messages and kept copies? Yes, - DesmoDue is an asset to this club, attempting to take it away from the Club is theft of a member asset. The MT has a duty to the entire membership to protect its assets. The webiste is also a member asset, - should it be used to promote theft? Not in my opinion.
er, - don't think it does, the e-mail I sent to you (and others) had nothing to do with PM's, - it was about the difficult time that the club is going through. - Now if you are saying that there is something in your inbox that we should be aware of........JOKE.
The sad reality is that there is a high degree of mistrust within the club, - certain people have not trusted the MT for some time, - and certain members of the club have not been trusted by the MT. SHOCK!!! I have seen the lies and stirring that goes on through U2U’s, - last year I had u2u’s forwarded to me and I still have copies of a few where a person was looking for support in a breakaway series of DesmoDue. Can I justify having read those messages and kept copies? Yes, - DesmoDue is an asset to this club, attempting to take it away from the Club is theft of a member asset. The MT has a duty to the entire membership to protect its assets. The webiste is also a member asset, - should it be used to promote theft? Not in my opinion.
Ian
your reference is regarding u2us 'forwarded' onto you, there is a significant difference between this and reading other peoples PMs without invitation.
Please can I ask that eaither yourself or another member of the MT or webteam respond to my questions above.
I'm guessing they'll (the MT/Webteam) will be checking the forum rules.I would suggest it might be worth someone copying and pasting them before they get changed (maybe....) before they the MT come back with any kind of response.Alternatively this thread gets deleted as per the norm or we all get put on moderation so the so called "trouble makers" can't have a say in the club/forum they pay for is run LOL!!
Any legal eagles on here who know the in's and outs of data protection within a forum and especially paid up members of said forum?
I cannot see PM's or U2U's (whatever they are called). I have in the past been able to view them, - but I think they were called u2u's then. The person whose u2u's I have read is aware of my viewing of them, but I will not incriminate that person by putting down their name here.
Ian
Accepted that you may not directly have access, however I am interested in the webteam directly based on the quote above from Eamon that individual PM's can and have been viewed and the comment from a member that a PM was viewed by a moderator prior to him reporting it.
I have no desire or interest in specific pms that you have or have not seen, I am however very interested in the policy or rule that would allow you to do so if you so wished. I am interested in where that policy is clearly stated for forum users.
I know I am not a paid up member - but if I was I would be calling for the MT/Web Moderator to be sacked and a new set or at least a modified set of "rules" to be written + I, as a paid up member would want to be voting in a new member of the MT if not the whole MT itself - cause at the moment they all seem to be a little on the power-crazy side!!!!
Stop bitching about what HAS happend and do something about what WILL happen - its your club - isnt it???
Khushy (preparing to be flamed)
Tonio600
16-Oct-2006, 14:26
Yes, as Dom quite correctly pointed out a couple of weeks ago the webteam have access to all areas of the database. Someone has to have access in order to do the necessary moderation tasks of both messages on the boards as well as messages sent through the PM system.
Both areas are subject to the same rules and regs as stated in the "Forum rules" section seen on the menu bar above.
I do agree with the first part of your message.
But I'm really really sad to read the second one.
It's a shame, a real shame. In no way you can apply the same set of rules to a public forum and a private messaging system. Whatever you think people are using those private messages for.
I always try to stay out of the politics as much as possible. I always think twice about the outcome before writing anything on that message board (or any other message board). But now it will be very difficult for me to support a MT which don't respect my privacy.
Tonio600
16-Oct-2006, 14:30
Depends what's in them...
i had an exceptionally violent, abusive and hurtful PM from [a member] last week, i was insulted, verbally abused and ridiculed....
the MT were aware of this by the time i reported it to them.... i don't see this as a bad thing.
Yes it bloody is. Weeksy your comment is rubbish. If I am rude with you by PM, then forward the said PM to whoever may take action. But you should not tolerate anyone having a look at it without you prior consentment.
This place is going crazy.
dickieducati
16-Oct-2006, 14:33
I would be calling for the MT/Web Moderator to be sacked and a new set or at least a modified set of "rules" to be written + I, as a paid up member would want to be voting in a new member of the MT if not the whole MT itself - cause at the moment they all seem to be a little on the power-crazy side!!!!
Khushy (preparing to be flamed)
you're pushing against an open door as far as many members are concerned. it is however just not that easy.
weeksyracing
16-Oct-2006, 14:34
Yes it bloody is. Weeksy your comment is rubbish. .
that's a question of opnion... and ours obviously differ.... that doesn't make mine "rubbish".... it just makes them different to yours.
Keep it in perspective please.
psychlist
16-Oct-2006, 14:35
Paul, an email was sent out.
Unfortunately, I was abroad and arrived home quite late Saturday night. As I was out all day Sunday with the DSC Sussex regional meet I have still not had time to catch up on my e-mails.
Can you be more specific about your allegation?
Other than saying that statements were communicated to me that were not public, I cannot be more specific Eamonn. When I queried the source it was made evident to me that my previous alignment with the then "Evo Group" had led either Chris, Paul or Ian to believe it would be worth their while getting the WebTeam to read my so called "Private Messages".
I am not aligned with any group, I have moved against any action to split the club whatever the source. I want to see fairness from all parties and responsibility to the membership in general, only then can we, the MT, expect the membership to respect us. I am extremely disappointed that the MT would see fit to authorise such espionage on a fellow MT member and even more disappointed that the WebTeam would be a party to it.
Other than saying that statements were communicated to me that were not public, I cannot be more specific Eamonn. When I queried the source it was made evident to me that my previous alignment with the then "Evo Group" had led either Chris, Paul or Ian to believe it would be worth their while getting the WebTeam to read my so called Private Messages.I am not aligned with any group, I have moved against any action to split the club whatever the source. I want to see fairness from all parties and responsibility to the membership in general, only then can we, the MT, expect the membership to respect us. I am extremely disappointed that the MT would see fit to authorise such espionage on a fellow MT member and even more disappointed that the WebTeam would be a party to it.As previously stated by myself on page 8 of this thread....."Imagine if Hitler had the web back in WWII I doubt it would be much different to this" shockingly truthful it seems.Couple of sites that maybe of use here:-http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/19980029.htm http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk./ http://www.webforum.org.uk/legal_and_security/data_protection.asp
Tonio600
16-Oct-2006, 14:42
that's a question of opnion... and ours obviously differ.... that doesn't make mine "rubbish".... it just makes them different to yours.
Keep it in perspective please.
Sorry for the rubbish mate, I couldn't control my feelings. I still can't believe what I read though.
I'm way further of my country that I thought before... I may even already be on the other side of the Atlantic ocean...
:( :( :( :(
weeksyracing
16-Oct-2006, 14:44
Sorry for the rubbish mate, I couldn't control my feelings. I still can't believe what I read though.
I'm way further of my country that I thought before... I may even already be on the other side of the Atlantic ocean...
:( :( :( :(
no problem fella, it's a fairly emotive subject for a lot of people, i can understand when things are said.
Paul (psychlist) as you have made an accusation of me I will answer it. I have not at any time asked a member of the webteam to look at your messages. I think that you will acknowledge that when I have a question of you I will ask it in public (or using the MT section of this board).
Lily I cannot answer your question I am afraid as I have not been on the webteam since we have been using the new software, - sorry I was trying to be helpful in relation to what I as a member of the MT have seen. As I have not asked the webteam before if they can look at somebody’s PM’s I do not know what the outcome of doing so would be.
It is probably best that Eamonn answers the specifics on this new board, - and I am sure that he can answer the question on data protection, - I have an understanding of it as it has been discussed within MT meetings and basically there is no infringement of the data protection act as despite misconceptions anything posted here antyhing posted is the property of the DSC, as is the case of all messageboards; somebody owns them.
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 15:08
I know I am not a paid up member - but if I was I would be calling for the MT/Web Moderator to be sacked and a new set or at least a modified set of "rules" to be written + I, as a paid up member would want to be voting in a new member of the MT if not the whole MT itself - cause at the moment they all seem to be a little on the power-crazy side!!!!
Stop bitching about what HAS happend and do something about what WILL happen - its your club - isnt it???
Khushy (preparing to be flamed)
This is what should happen yes. There seems to be far too much of something going on for it all to be conspiricy and rumour ! About time it was all done away with and a new broom put in place - to rescue whats flippin left :rolleyes:
weeksyracing
16-Oct-2006, 15:11
This is what should happen yes. There seems to be far too much of something going on for it all to be conspiricy and rumour ! About time it was all done away with and a new broom put in place - to rescue whats flippin left :rolleyes:
you could have argued this was the same with British Government over last 3 years...
However, there's a term to be served, right or wrong, the MT are here for the duration of it..
2 options really for all of us.
1. Bitch moan whine and shout at them
2. Live with it and vote them out at AGM.
you're pushing against an open door as far as many members are concerned. it is however just not that easy.
You (the paid up members) have given control of your club (voluntarily) to some people (MT) who you voted in - now your not happy with their behaviour (totally understandable) and you are acting as if you are either powerless to do anything about it or you like bitching but cant be bothered to do anything about it or you dont know you (the paid up members) can do something about it or you are too afraid to say anything or maybe I have just misread the situation and you are all totally happy and banging on about it and this thread is normal DSC behaviour!!!!!
Censorship - unacceptable
immature management of DD situations - unacceptable
Dictating who can and who cant do this that and the other - unacceptable
Reading PM's - TOTALLY unacceptable and unforgivable
Starting a load of sh*te on this thread - unacceptable and ban worthy
Being on the MT is a privilege - isnt it?? - being responsible for representing your fellow Ducatisti - who voted you in - in the first place.
Threads less worthy than this one (originally started by MT) have been deleted!!!!
Its a bleedin bike club . . .
we own bikes
we ride/race bikes
we help eachother
we trade stuff
how bloody complicated can it get - get rid of management - stop all the pointless committee meetings (they solve NOTHING) - form a club based on common goals/interests in mind and get on with enjoying life - nobody needs to be incharge - maybe thats the root of the problem.
As for those power-crazed, control-freaky, dictatorial, ego-centric - sad individuals on the MT (you know who you are) you really need to sort yourselves out guys and resign immediately to save at least some of your dignity OR sort this sh*te out now!!!!
Khushy
(preparing to be a flamed, b banned, c sent to bloody Coventry (ewwww)
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 15:16
you could have argued this was the same with British Government over last 3 years...
However, there's a term to be served, right or wrong, the MT are here for the duration of it..
2 options really for all of us.
1. Bitch moan whine and shout at them
2. Live with it and vote them out at AGM.
Yes but there should be provision in cases of extreme unrest that an egm can be called and voted off with immediate effect isn't there ?
The governement we 'have' to live - surely thats not the same for a club ?
ChrisBushell
16-Oct-2006, 15:23
Unfortunately, I was abroad and arrived home quite late Saturday night. As I was out all day Sunday with the DSC Sussex regional meet I have still not had time to catch up on my e-mails.
Other than saying that statements were communicated to me that were not public, I cannot be more specific Eamonn. When I queried the source it was made evident to me that my previous alignment with the then "Evo Group" had led either Chris, Paul or Ian to believe it would be worth their while getting the WebTeam to read my so called "Private Messages".
I am not aligned with any group, I have moved against any action to split the club whatever the source. I want to see fairness from all parties and responsibility to the membership in general, only then can we, the MT, expect the membership to respect us. I am extremely disappointed that the MT would see fit to authorise such espionage on a fellow MT member and even more disappointed that the WebTeam would be a party to it.
Paul,
For the avoidence of doubt I can state here in public the following:
1) That I cannot personally access personal messages of Members
2) That I do not have even moderator status on this board
3) That at no time have I asked or instructed a member of the WEBteam to look at peoples personal messages on my behalf
I have no knowledge of what you allude to and would ask that you retract immeadiately.
Yes but there should be provision in cases of extreme unrest that an egm can be called and voted off with immediate effect isn't there ?
The governement we 'have' to live - surely thats not the same for a club ?
Lynn, - all members signed to accept the club rules/constitution/terms(?) that are on the back of your membership form, there is no provision for an EGM within those rules. The MT have agreed (they did not have to, but listened to requests and opinion) to a new constitution/rules to which all members were invited for input, - 1 member turned up at the meeting!
you could have argued this was the same with British Government over last 3 years...
However, there's a term to be served, right or wrong, the MT are here for the duration of it..
2 options really for all of us.
1. Bitch moan whine and shout at them
2. Live with it and vote them out at AGM.
Steve the members cannot vote the MT out at the AGM, it's not part of the constitution from memory, in fact I doubt think there's anyway for a member to do anything with regards to MT and it's members apart from walk with your feet and your cash.I might be wrong though as there should be a new constitution now????
Paul,
For the avoidence of doubt I can state here in public the following:
1) That I cannot personally access personal messages of Members
2) That I do not have even moderator status on this board
3) That at no time have I asked or instructed a member of the WEBteam to look at peoples personal messages on my behalf
I have no knowledge of what you allude to and would ask that you retract immeadiately.
cover our own arse!!!!
Is it april 1st - this now getting comical.
Khushy
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 15:34
I might be wrong though as there should be a new constitution now????
Thats what I thought :confused:
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 15:37
Lynn, - all members signed to accept the club rules/constitution/terms(?) that are on the back of your membership form, there is no provision for an EGM within those rules. The MT have agreed (they did not have to, but listened to requests and opinion) to a new constitution/rules to which all members were invited for input, - 1 member turned up at the meeting!
Really ? So it's not a 'club' then ? Because thats not how I see a 'club' working at all :confused: In fact - is that even legal ?
Lynn, - all members signed to accept the club rules/constitution/terms(?) that are on the back of your membership form, there is no provision for an EGM within those rules. The MT have agreed (they did not have to, but listened to requests and opinion) to a new constitution/rules to which all members were invited for input, - 1 member turned up at the meeting!
Ian,My understand was the new constitution was brought about because the old "existing" constitution was not legal and was heavily flawed and contradicted itself on several points????
Ian,My understand was the new constitution was brought about because the old "existing" constitution was not legal and was heavily flawed and contradicted itself on several points????
well suited to the DSC then???
Khushy
oy, slow down - its taking me ages to copy & paste, just in case the thread gets pulled:o :D
Redruth
16-Oct-2006, 15:53
Ian,
My comment referred to your opening line in that e-mail, which you may have felt was justified given my 11th hour involvement in the constitution redrafting, or it may simply have been an inoccuous introduction to the main body of your text.
The thought that 'you were aware' of something, in the light of these revelations about PM's, does make me very uncomfortable. As we haven't discussed anything directly, you may have gleaned this particular 'awareness' from another member's comments, rather than from PM's, in which case I apologise.
In the words of Paul James, I am a staunch member of the DSC and I shall wait for the AGM to raise this, and other issues. In the meantime, I shan't be using 'PM's' until we are all assured that they are what they claim to be, private.
Come on Charlotte I know you're quicker than this :DFrom memory the existing constitution was heavily leaning towards the MT rather than it's members, the members didn't have much if any say of who's on the MT and what happens to the DSC's funds and who's accountable etc. I'm sure I could probably find the old constitution and the old posts regarding the issues back then...I guess if needed I/we could clarify the need for a new constitution by contacting Gizmo.... he'll be in darkest Wales today as he's down there doing some testing, but I'm sure he's contactable if needed ;)
Jon:p
I think the MT need to question WHY there was such a poor turnout to consult over this document.
From the one that AK got, I raised my eyebrows just a tad, in suprise that Gizmo had not quite covered items that should have been covered.
Maybe these points were raised by emails tho from members - no doubt you will see them in the next pronto tho :)
(I have been involved in doing 2 constitutions for a national club and also an International club, so like to think I have a reasonable idea as to what ought to be there :smug: :lol: )
Ref the electing of the MT at the AGM (has been mentioned on several threads today) at present only 3 of the current MT stand down at the beginning of the AGM,(as they are not able to serve more than 3 years without re-election at present) they are then eligible for re-election at the AGM.
Anyone else who wishes to stand has to get their nomination to the MT within a certain time before the AGM, along with info about how their skills can be of service to the MT in the job.
However, what I cant find (and didnt in 2004, 2005 & 2006), is information as to WHO is going to step down each year, until you actually get the the AGM.
This will prove a bit of a problem for prospective MT members, in not knowing which positions to apply for.
Finally, of the total number on the MT at present there are a couple of people - who having been co-opted since the AGM was held - cannot vote on any issues at the MT meetings.
However, I stand to be corrected about my comments on the above.
C:)
Ruth, - I do not doubt your staunchness.
Lynn it would actually be more illegal to change the terms that members have signed up to, although questioning the legality of a private members club is quite strange, - a private members club can be whatever it wants to be as long as it does not operate outside of the law, - although even then it can, - golf clubs with men only areas (???). The club constitution could have insisted on ownership of Red Ducati’s only!!! - people have a choice when they join, - read the rules, agree with them, join; so the MT has a duty to stick to those rules for the term of their membership. The MT cannot change the constitution at the drop of a hat as members have signed to join the club under that constitution; - notice has to be given to all members that their terms of membership are going to change, thereby giving all members the opportunity to say that they do not agree with them so they will not renew. In truth a new constitution should be voted in at the next AGM, and then it come into being at the following AGM; members have a right to operate under the rules that they signed for (sorry repeating myself). However the MT are going to put out a recommendation to the entire membership via post that the new constitution is accepted and carried forward from the next AGM.
JPM, - my take on the change of constitution was that times have changed, so we needed different rules inline with website use, and different positions within the MT etc.. As I have said above a private members constitution cannot really be illegal as members have a choice to abide by the rules and join, - nobody is forced. If potential members were not shown the rules then there would be a case, - or if we changed those rules part way through their membership.
The truth is that the MT did not have to listen to the request for change, - we could have thrown it out using the existing rules, - a member could have proposed it to be heard at the next AGM, a year taken for deliberation and then it come into being at the 2008 AGM. The MT has a massive image issue right now (something that I said in Saturday’s MTM), in my opinion it needs somebody like Lily who works in this field to work with us to get us back on line, - the very sad thing with all of this is that pre the last AGM I think a lot of people had some very good ideas about change for the club, but since that AGM, the personal campaign against certain members of the MT has continued (even an attempted vote at the Cadwell meeting) as has the campaign to take away a member asset from the members. It was clear to me at Brands SBK that members have had enough of the continued politics, - it has got to a point of the MT now having to do something, before the club implodes.
Finally, of the total number on the MT at present there are a couple of people - who having been co-opted since the AGM was held - cannot vote on any issues at the MT meetings.
However, I stand to be corrected about my comments on the above.
C:)
CK, - membership of the MT has to be ratified by the membership, - are you saying that I could bring in a mate, co-opt him or her in up until the AGM and they could vote on material decisions to do with the club? I am sure that you would complain if that was the case. Those members of the MT (Paul S and Flanks) who are not ratified are just as able to put across their points at a meeting as I am. – And actually Flanks did vote on Saturday as although his vote may not be official his opinion was required for the record.
Ruth, - I do not doubt your staunchness.
Lynn it would actually be more illegal to change the terms that members have signed up to, although questioning the legality of a private members club is quite strange, - a private members club can be whatever it wants to be as long as it does not operate outside of the law, - although even then it can, - golf clubs with men only areas (???). The club constitution could have insisted on ownership of Red Ducati’s only!!! - people have a choice when they join, - read the rules, agree with them, join; so the MT has a duty to stick to those rules for the term of their membership. The MT cannot change the constitution at the drop of a hat as members have signed to join the club under that constitution; - notice has to be given to all members that their terms of membership are going to change, thereby giving all members the opportunity to say that they do not agree with them so they will not renew. In truth a new constitution should be voted in at the next AGM, and then it come into being at the following AGM; members have a right to operate under the rules that they signed for (sorry repeating myself). However the MT are going to put out a recommendation to the entire membership via post that the new constitution is accepted and carried forward from the next AGM.
JPM, - my take on the change of constitution was that times have changed, so we needed different rules inline with website use, and different positions within the MT etc.. As I have said above a private members constitution cannot really be illegal as members have a choice to abide by the rules and join, - nobody is forced. If potential members were not shown the rules then there would be a case, - or if we changed those rules part way through their membership.
The truth is that the MT did not have to listen to the request for change, - we could have thrown it out using the existing rules, - a member could have proposed it to be heard at the next AGM, a year taken for deliberation and then it come into being at the 2008 AGM. The MT has a massive image issue right now (something that I said in Saturday’s MTM), in my opinion it needs somebody like Lily who works in this field to work with us to get us back on line, - the very sad thing with all of this is that pre the last AGM I think a lot of people had some very good ideas about change for the club, but since that AGM, the personal campaign against certain members of the MT has continued (even an attempted vote at the Cadwell meeting) as has the campaign to take away a member asset from the members. It was clear to me at Brands SBK that members have had enough of the continued politics, - it has got to a point of the MT now having to do something, before the club implodes.
I'd suggest you read the current club rules Ian......
The new constitution can be proposed by MT NOW - under the terms of the current rules a majority of members must disagree for it not to go ahead ( no procedures are outlined, another example of the poor wording and lack of accountability). this would mean the new rules are in place prior to AGM and members can then get the democratic changes they requested at last AGM. Delaying it will only cause further problems and could be perceived as some as another attempt to maintain a status quo.
Under the current rules MT can do almost whatever they like and without consultation, this is not a satisfactory situation for any "members club" and needs addressing quickly, the consequences of not doing so are plain to see.
I'd suggest you read the current club rules Ian......
The new constitution can be proposed by MT NOW - under the terms of the current rules a majority of members must disagree for it not to go ahead ( no procedures are outlined, another example of the poor wording and lack of accountability). this would mean the new rules are in place prior to AGM and members can then get the democratic changes they requested at last AGM. Delaying it will only cause further problems and could be perceived as some as another attempt to maintain a status quo.
Under the current rules MT can do almost whatever they like and without consultation, this is not a satisfactory situation for any "members club" and needs addressing quickly, the consequences of not doing so are plain to see.
I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say, (probably because I did not write it well enough). I agree that the MT can put out the new constitution now. But as you will appreciate we could hide behind the existing constitution and leave it for the AGM. I am not saying that we will, or that it was ever our intention to do so, - I was trying to point out that perhaps we are not the big bad bunch of controlling ogres that some accuse us of being. Hey the existing rules we the MT could vote to get rid of whoever we want to, with no consultation or justification or right to appeal ! !
Member input is important, - but equally the MT needs to be allowed to manage, - the communist utopian ideal of some where no committee is required just would not work with a club with the financial and liability responsibilities that we have. The only resistance to change that has been from the MT has only ever been to resist personal vendetta.
Ian
Wiith the greatest of respect, you haven't answered Gizmo's point. Can you do so please, asap?
When someone suggests a course of action, it is not sufficient to respond with a list of actions you do not intend to pursue. It is the course of action suggested you need to address.
Loz
I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say, (probably because I did not write it well enough). I agree that the MT can put out the new constitution now. But as you will appreciate we could hide behind the existing constitution and leave it for the AGM. I am not saying that we will, or that it was ever our intention to do so, - I was trying to point out that perhaps we are not the big bad bunch of controlling ogres that some accuse us of being. Hey the existing rules we the MT could vote to get rid of whoever we want to, with no consultation or justification or right to appeal ! !
Member input is important, - but equally the MT needs to be allowed to manage, - the communist utopian ideal of some where no committee is required just would not work with a club with the financial and liability responsibilities that we have. The only resistance to change that has been from the MT has only ever been to resist personal vendetta.
Ian
Wiith the greatest of respect, you haven't answered Gizmo's point. Can you do so please, asap?
When someone suggests a course of action, it is not sufficient to respond with a list of actions you do not intend to pursue. It is the course of action suggested you need to address.
Loz
sorry Loz, - was n't trying to be obtuse, I am not sure that Gizmo actually asked a question. Trying to read it again and can't see a question mark.
You (the paid up members) have given control of your club (voluntarily) to some people (MT) who you voted in - now your not happy with their behaviour (totally understandable) and you are acting as if you are either powerless to do anything about it or you like bitching but cant be bothered to do anything about it or you dont know you (the paid up members) can do something about it or you are too afraid to say anything or maybe I have just misread the situation and you are all totally happy and banging on about it and this thread is normal DSC behaviour!!!!!
Censorship - unacceptable
immature management of DD situations - unacceptable
Dictating who can and who cant do this that and the other - unacceptable
Reading PM's - TOTALLY unacceptable and unforgivable
Starting a load of sh*te on this thread - unacceptable and ban worthy
Being on the MT is a privilege - isnt it?? - being responsible for representing your fellow Ducatisti - who voted you in - in the first place.
Threads less worthy than this one (originally started by MT) have been deleted!!!!
Its a bleedin bike club . . .
we own bikes
we ride/race bikes
we help eachother
we trade stuff
how bloody complicated can it get - get rid of management - stop all the pointless committee meetings (they solve NOTHING) - form a club based on common goals/interests in mind and get on with enjoying life - nobody needs to be incharge - maybe thats the root of the problem.
As for those power-crazed, control-freaky, dictatorial, ego-centric - sad individuals on the MT (you know who you are) you really need to sort yourselves out guys and resign immediately to save at least some of your dignity OR sort this sh*te out now!!!!
Khushy
(preparing to be a flamed, b banned, c sent to bloody Coventry (ewwww)
I think Khushy makes some valuable points here.
I am an MT member. I was voted in at the last AGM to try and breathe some new life into the DSC regions. As Khushy says, being on the MT is a real privilege, not because there is any financial reward, nor are there any perks - it's just hard and often thankless work. I'm not whinging about this, I knew that any work I did on the clubs behalf would be expected of me by the membership otherwise why would I volunteer for it. What I mean about privilege is that I personally feel honoured that the members of this club see fit to have me represent them.
Why did I put myself up for MT membership? Quite simply because when I started riding Ducatis there were no other clubs apart from this one and the DOC (and I decided this one was less crusty). The rise of the internet means that there are now other places for Ducati addicts to get their fix, but back then there was no Ducatisti forum and there was no DuN, this was the place to be. Through this club, it would not take too much of a stretch of the imagination to say it has changed my life for the better. I have discovered a whole raft of Ducati related things to enjoy but most importantly I have discovered a whole new group of friends all over the country. In my local region I'm truly proud to say that the people that I've met through the DSC have become some of the best friends that I've ever had. That is why I put myself up for MT membership - simply to try and give something back for all that I've gained.
What saddens me is that the club has developed a faction of people for whom the MT is seen as their sworn enemy. There are different groups of people for whom the MT can do nothing right, all for their own reasons. People have their individual reasons for this animosity towards the MT. Perhaps they have had arguements with individual MT members in the past, perhaps they don't always agree with the direction that the MT is taking, perhaps they feel aggrieved or persecuted by the MT, perhaps they simply have a personal hatred of individual MT members or a personal agenda that contradicts what the MT try to do for the club, maybe grievances from the DD race series have spilled over to the mainstream of the DSC, perhaps they are intolerant of any mistakes made by the MT.
Whatever the reasons and however this viewpoint of the MT has arisen, it seems that detractors of the MT have tarred all of us with the same brush. We are portrayed as some sort of scheming, power crazed egotists who want nothing more than complete, draconian, orwellian control of the club, everyone in it and everything to do with it.
This is not completely without reason. I agree with all the comments Khushy has made about censorship, poor management (or more likely inexperienced management of rapidly changing requirements) and particularly about the lack of privacy in PM's. This is all unacceptable and must stop.
However, it is also unacceptable to accredit the whole MT with evil and malicious intent, or to single out MT actions as persecution. The facts are that on a board with so many people on it there will be the inevitable nastiness that occurs between people. How to deal with inappropriate postings is not an enviable task, particularly when factional infighting breaks out. Where do you draw the line about what constitutes censorship? If we didn't censor anything how long would it be before bigotted, nastiness breaks out?
It is also disingenuous to promote the view that the MT are an unelected dictatorship, if you really care about the club, if you feel so passionately that the current MT are a bunch of no-hopers, then change it. You can put yourself forward for election to an MT position and get voted in.
I intend to put myself forward for re-election because I cling to the hope that this club still has the ideas and the energy to offer events and activities of real value to anybody who owns and rides a Ducati, that it can even extend a friendly hand to people who own any other type of bike or even no bike at all. Other forums such as DuN and Ducatisti do a fine job, but I believe that this club offers that little bit more that the other forums do not necessarily see as their purpose in life. Anybody who went to the 2 day trackday at Cadwell, or actually went to any DD meetings or went to the BMF would see that the DSC does go that little bit further. The other forums don't run themselves, there's some fine work going on behind the scenes from some selfless, harworking and dedicated individuals, but if you want to undertake more than that, you will need people who are willing to step up to the plate and put the work in to organising stuff. In other words, if you tried to do the things that the DSC does without an MT, you would soon find that you would need an MT and have to invent one.
I would just like to appeal for calm. We have a great club, but it is not immune to people making mistakes, acting in a politically inept way or just being plain clumsy in trampling on other peoples ideas. I believe that there is a vision for the way forward (at least there is in my mind), even if that vision is difficult to see given that there's a tempest blowing a lot of dust around right now.
I also believe that as we approach next year, we will colectively be able to lay out those ideas and visions and develop them into real deliverable activities that will be of value to everyone in the club. Given the chance and mutual respect between the MT and the people that vote for them I believe that we can do this.
Somebody put forward the proposition that this club is childlike and I have had this analogy in mind for several months now.
When the club was in it's infancy it didn't have any real idea of what it wanted to do, but the sun shone and everything it did was fun - just like it was when you were 7 years old. Now the club has reached it's teenaged years, it's started to get a bit more ambitious and push the boundaries, started to take on risky things. At this stage it also has a lot of hormones flying about and some days wakes up hating itself, and the rest of the world, without really knowing why. Adolescence is a painful time, I can't wait until we grow up.
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 17:43
I
Under the current rules MT can do almost whatever they like and without consultation, this is not a satisfactory situation for any "members club" and needs addressing quickly, the consequences of not doing so are plain to see.
No thats not satisfactory at all.
Ian - re the meeting that only one attended - was a new consitution put in place at this meeting ?
Also apologies if all this has been done - but frankly I haven't taken much notice - it's only recent events that have drawn my attention to how this club is run rightly or wrongly. A few things have been said which raised my interest and one of them being the lack of clarity re being able to vote out alleged or deemed unsatisfactory influences.
sorry Loz, - was n't trying to be obtuse, I am not sure that Gizmo actually asked a question. Trying to read it again and can't see a question mark.
No worries, Ian
Nope, no question in Gizmo's post and no reference to a question in mine, either. It was Gizmo's points that I ask you to address, not any questions.
You took the time to respond to Gizmo's post, I'm simply asking if you will take a bit more time to respond to the points he raised. Thank you.
I'd suggest you read the current club rules Ian......
I have many times and read at least 2 points out loud to the MT on Saturday!
The new constitution can be proposed by MT NOW - under the terms of the current rules a majority of members must disagree for it not to go ahead ( no procedures are outlined, another example of the poor wording and lack of accountability).
It is about to be proposed by the MT with the recommendation to the membership to accept it.
this would mean the new rules are in place prior to AGM and members can then get the democratic changes they requested at last AGM. Delaying it will only cause further problems and could be perceived as some as another attempt to maintain a status quo.
I am not sure if they can be, but would bow to superior knowledge and other MT input on this. I could be wrong with my assumption that the new constitution would come into play at the AGM and not before. My thoughts are that we would have to give reasonable notice time for their adoption; - I have no objection for them to be adopted tomorrow, and get us moving forward in a positive way.
Under the current rules MT can do almost whatever they like and without consultation, this is not a satisfactory situation for any "members club" and needs addressing quickly, the consequences of not doing so are plain to see.
Yep, current rules that all members agreed to when joining give the MT a lot of power and questionable accountability, - I have never denied that. The rules were written to guard against hostile take over which was a potential threat when the club was starting. I would rather look forward to what we can do to move this club forward.
Ian
Thank you for responding. All that's needed now is action.
Cheers,
Loz
Redruth
16-Oct-2006, 19:04
No thats not satisfactory at all.
Ian - re the meeting that only one attended - was a new consitution put in place at this meeting ?
Also apologies if all this has been done - but frankly I haven't taken much notice - it's only recent events that have drawn my attention to how this club is run rightly or wrongly. A few things have been said which raised my interest and one of them being the lack of clarity re being able to vote out alleged or deemed unsatisfactory influences.
Lynn, the draft was discussed, but was still to be subject to further amendments. There is currently no right enshrined in this draft for members to vote anyone out.
phoenix n max
16-Oct-2006, 19:10
Lynn, the draft was discussed, but was still to be subject to further amendments. There is currently no right enshrined in this draft for members to vote anyone out.
Thanks hun.
It is surely not beyond us to come up with a method of MT selection/election/ejection that protects the club from both hostile takeover from without and a hypothetical MT member acting against the best interests of the Club.
Come on, people, this isn't the UN, it's a bike club! Let's work on this!
bradders
16-Oct-2006, 20:10
what happened sat eve then?? just being nosey, pm if you dont want to air any more laundry :)
weeksyracing
16-Oct-2006, 20:20
what happened sat eve then?? just being nosey, pm if you dont want to air any more laundry :)
I'll check my pm's and send you the full email if you like Bradders, well, it's one groups representation of what happend :)
bradders
16-Oct-2006, 20:48
thanks guys....have to say much of it makes sense outside looking in.
good luck to those attmpting to resolve this
888heaven
16-Oct-2006, 21:06
Is all this venting of disquiet and frustration just an extension of todays total feeling of not having a voice or say in anything that directly affects us all.
rubbish collections every 2 weeks nobody wants it but your getting it.
micro chips in your bins to spy on you.
building houses for people that dont have any right to be here and bumping up house prices so our children cant afford them because they dont qualify for all those freebies given to immigrants.
speed cameras that bring in taxation that Gordon didnt get from your pension pot.
being persecuted for being a christian in a christian country.
police that do the governments dirty work instead of working for the public.
judges that should be living with the Clangers on their planet.
NHS that's running out of money put in by you and me thats spent on medical tourists and again illegal immigrants.
The DSC is just an extension of life just change MT for number 10/11 and you get the picture TB started the revival and wont let go of Big Bears chair grand illusions of world domination (Iraq/Afghanistan).
all that infighting has taken their eye off the real issues just like us.
its the only pleasure we all got brought together in the first place the love of beautifull bikes that bring out the best of any rider.
even if the Club did fold the bikes remain the same as do the people that ride them those you get on with and those you dont thats life it will not change its human nature.
All clubs commitees are the same people join change things get bored and move on.
ian
Nigel C
16-Oct-2006, 21:20
I rate this thread a Five :)
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