Metal in sump - rockers? (material insight 1)

[james81273]

Took as many photos of the rockers via the covers so i could track wear and tear. then decided to change the oil in the 1999 996bip.

Took the oil filter off then the sump plug (which has a magnetic pickup on it) and low and behold guess what i saw on the sump plug!:o What I guess could be called Shaffer’s of metal fillings (looks like strands of cut wire) . I am guessing this is a rocker or G0d help me “rockers!” chrome falling apart..

Am I right in thinking there are 16 of them?! KNICKERS! this is going to be fun.! Don’t mind doing the belts etc.. but the rockers and the shims was something i was hopeing not to have to do except annual services when I was going to let someone else do it. Which brings me onto my next point..

I am now trying to calculate worst cost pricing for say SIGMA or Pro twins to do the investigation and replacing. (will post results when i speak to them BUT I don’t like talking to garages about such matters as I can almost hear down the telephone line there little brains making a ker-ching noise)

As anyone got similar stories (to confirm the fillings are rockers otherwise its a complete engine strip down to find the source :-( including the costs they paid ?)

Everyone here rates Motto Louigi but he’s a bit far away far away from Epsom Downs in Surrey. (Particularly as I have to get back from there afterwards)

Can anyone confirm that each rocker costs £80 plus VAT?
How much are the shimms (they come in a multi pack dont they?)

I have attached a picture of one of the Shaffer’s collected when changing the engine oil....

Gut feeling this is going to cost me at least £800 

bum

[Nigel C]

yes opening rockers are £80 and closing rockers are ( i was quoted this) £100

The chrome on the rockers is not magnetic so it wont stick to your sump plug what you have sounds like something else :puzzled:




expect an expert along soon !

[Nigel C]

having looked at the pic it's not from your rockers that would be small flakes not a strand like that

[nelly]

The chrome off the rockers isn't magnetic, so it won't stick to the sump plug. Any chrome collects on the gauze filter which is screwed in to the side of the engine, just below the clutch housing.

Opening rockers are about £105 inc. vat, closers are about £115.

It's quite common to find slithers on the sump plug. They could've been there for years if the plug hasn't been cleaned when it's been taken out. I wouldn't be over concerned unless it looks like a shim or such like.

[NBs996]

Whatever it is, it looks like it's about to attack the Enterprise!

It's not rocker plating anyway, that stuff doesn't shave off like that.

[mikesps]

MBP in Canada will replate worn rockers for USD50 each. They reckon it is a permanent fix. I have had three openers done so far!

http://www.mbpducati.ca/

[rockhopper]

I wonder if the thing in your pic is part of the washer behind the alternator nut? Its not really very clear.

I regulary change the oil in both the bikes and every car i've ever owned and the sump plug always comes out covered in swarf. Nothing has blown up yet!

[keith_mann1959]

Looks like what i had on the sump plug in a 748BP years ago. Think it was the crank plug backing out and wearing away as it did so.
Cost £1300 partly cos it took out the main bearing with all this sloshing about inside.

[james81273]

thanks for the feed back ..

Gulp.. what is it? .. Now I am more paranoid !:sing:

its too thin for any sort of lock wire (apologies for the photo, will try and get some better ones tonight)

Looking at the oil pan I used, this strand and another, where the only 2 that came through. The rest (smaller bits) where on the sump plug..

On a happier thought the contents of the drain pan doesn’t have a sparkle So I guess there are no chrome flakes left over in it (like tinsel flakes) :D

Well this is one for the book?. But I don’t like the thought of that material flowing around the engine.

More news as it comes in……

[Gav748sp]

Have the galley plug checked, found the same with my engine recently, was supposed to have been checked last year by a Ducati dealer but , when stripped and checked this year was found to be finger tight and shaved down.:o
I would have it checked.
You can also get rockers for aprox $60.

[rockhopper]

I think the gallery plug is aluminuim which isn't magnetic.

[james81273]

thanks for all of your help... if someone would confirm the point on the galley plug (aluminium = non magnetic or steel = magnetic ?) That would be fantastic!

Attach is a picture of the oil pick up filter. You should be able to see in the top corner of the gauze a small piece of chrome flake.

This appears to be the only "large" flake in gauze of the pick up. When I cleaned the pick up, there where trace elements (less than 1mm in diameter) , but nothing to panic?. Might sound a bit dum but

I guess this could be the early stages of a rocker failure, or could this be normal wear?

I guess my cheapest option but with a hint of danger is for the next 500 miles, filter the oil out of the engine and look for further signs of chrome flaking or "weird" flakes of metal?
Then in the next 500 miles take it in for an early 12k service pending how much money I can save up till them?
:P
j

[rockhopper]

I believe that original gallery plugs are aluminium but they can be replaced with a steel one. I don't think the steel ones are known to back out so if the bit of whatever in your first pic is magnetic then its not the crank plug.
I suspect is alternator or gearbox related.

The only way to find out if you have a rocker problem is to take the cams out and then take each rocker out.

Like i've said many times before, rocker removal is not part of the official ducati service schedule. People like Neil at Cornerspped however do take them out and check them.

[nelly]

The gauze filter will catch any alloy particles washing around in the oil, as well as chrome.
The particles that end up in the oil filter itself will out number these...........

I understand how people worry about the rocker problems, and the recent storys of crank gallery plugs backing out, but the ONLY way you can check these is by inspection, not by second guessing the origin of bits in the gauze or stuck to the sump plug.
These could have been there since the first oil change unless the plug and filter were thoroughly cleaned.
They can give an indicator that inspection may be necessary, but no more. Every missed gear change or clumsy down shift will shave a slither of a gearbox dog..............it doesn't mean the 'box is shot.
I wouldn't have thought you've anything to worry about from either of the photos.

Clean the plug and gauze filter, refill with oil and ride her. Enjoy it.
When it's due a service, mention the fines to the workshop and ask them to take a look. Rockers are easy enough, the plug needs a cylinder pulling.

[james81273]

thanks nelly

Too true. Dont second guess, as it can cost you more in the long run. Its too easy to get caught up in the negative press of these machines when the positives out weigh them easliy.

I bought the bike to enjoy it, and thats what i am doing ridiing it or servicing it.

Thanks for all involved for your help, really appreciated.

j

[Shazaam!]

Ducati engines are equiped with two oil filters. A screen to trap larger particles and a filter cartidge to trap the smaller debris. Every 2,000 - 3,000 miles the oil should be changed, the filter replaced, and the screen cleaned.

It’s very important that screen be removed and inspected for debris at each oil change. Some dealers don't do it, explaining that the blockage to flow is small - so don’t worry. Even if it is done, the early warning signs from particles on the screen are often ignored. The most common rationale being that the filter screen captures particles of aluminum remaining from the machining process, so seeing them shouldn’t necessarily be cause for alarm. At your first oil change this argument has merit, but if you see particles at subsequent changes you should investigat further.

As most of you know by now, there are two problems common to Ducatis that can be identified by, and diagnosed by the particles they deposit on the filter screen.

The first problem is a design flaw in the pre-2000 model-year bikes that have an aluminum crankshaft oil gallery plug that can loosen and back-out. In doing so, the rotation of the crankshaft will machine the plug down until the plug eventually comes out and the engine experiences a catastrophic loss of oil pressure that destroys the main bearings (among other things.) The aluminum particles will end-up on the filter screen.

The second problem is the design problem with the chrome plating flaking-off the cam-contacting surface of the rocker arms. The best way to know if you have rocker problems is to pull the cams and look, but your dealer won't do this unless you authorize an additional labor charge. Chrome particles on the filter screen will give you a good reason to spend the money to have them do this.

Chrome and aluminum are non-magnetic so they don’t attach themselves to the magnet on the drain plug. So how do you tell if you have chrome or aluminum particles on your filter screen? Here’s a simple test.

Draw a small amount of battery acid and put the particles in it. Battery acid is dilute sulfuric acid, so when you add chromium to it you’ll get a release of hydrogen bubbles and the chromium will turn the darker violet color of chromium sulfate. Aluminum doesn’t react this way.

For you chemistry majors:

2Cr + 3H2SO4 > Cr2 [SO4]3 + 3H2


So, if you do it, you get to see the early warning signs of transmission damage or the crank oil gallery plug backing out.

[madmav]

sounds like just some slithers of metal off the gears! nowt to worry about:D

[toecutter]

James

My 996S has produced several small "wire" pieces over many oil changes.
Pull out the rocker spindles with an M4?? screw and spacer, with the relevant valve closed to remove load, and examine the rocker return springs. If, like mine did, the spindles have been rotating in the head, the internal shoulder wears the first coil of the spring, and the heat generated may cause a small sliver of the hardened skin to break off. As a preliminery, check the inner surface of the small central rocker spindle cover, held on with 4 screws; spindle rotation causes annular wear on this surface, which should be completely smooth, in my case to a depth of 2mm. IMO, the outward extension of these spindles reduces the rigidity of the rocker support, and may lead to tilting of the rocker relative to the cam lobe, so that in use the chrome pad experiences the full force of the lobe from the sharp edge of the lobe, concentrated on a very small area, and thus leading to premature chrome pad failure. . . . just a theory, but perhaps worth checking out. In the fullness of time, I expect to have to modify the face of the spindles and make a "star" washer to hold all 4 still to prevent rotation, but for now I have just replaced the damaged springs and covers, in addition to all 16 rockers, to restore lateral spindle motion to desgn values.

Good Luck!
julian