No Modifications - what does it mean

[skidlids]

I have read recently on another website about a DD bike having its crankshaft balanced.

From previous experience of this type of work it usually include one of the following
Grinding Metal away
Drilling or Milling away metal
Weldiing to add metal

Now with the DD rules concerning Crankshafts having remained unchanged in this area since the very first set of rule for the 2005 Season V1.01 up to the latest set of rules, they have always stated NO MODIFICATIONS TO THE CRANKSHAFT ARE ALLOWED.

Current rule reads
1.6.21 Crankshaft
No modifications are allowed (including polishing and lightening).

So how the hell do you get them balanced, even by normal methods which would be in breach of the rules its about £160 to balance a Ducati Crankshaft

I thought we were trying to keep the racing cheap especially class B and as such we don't need costs like this creeping in, after all if you can't split and rebuild your engine yourself the overall bill is going to add up to quite a bit more than I have paid for a spare engine

[Chaz]

Don't know how you would police that! as the cranks are balanced from the factory to a certain degree, I've not done anything below the barrels on my bikes but if I did I would certainly balance the crank! it would be daft to go to the expense of a rebuild without.

[skidlids]

Don't know how you would police that! as the cranks are balanced from the factory to a certain degree, I've not done anything below the barrels on my bikes but if I did I would certainly balance the crank! it would be daft to go to the expense of a rebuild without.

And there in lies the problem
Policing it. A standard factory crank may or may not be distinguishable from a balanced or modified crank, I may have to investigate futher to see just how distinguishable they are

It would be hard to tell a balanced crank from a slightly lightened one without stripping the crank from the engine and removing the rods etc and then weighing to see how it compares to a crank that hasn't been modified in anyway after leaving the factory and allowaning a small tolerance

Now if its easy to tell a unmodified crank from a modified one be it balanced or lightened, possibly by just removing the front cylinder and rotating the crank, policing it becomes easy
eg.
Unmodified = legal
modified = illegal
which makes the rule as it exists suitable for the series

If this rule has to be modified to allow for grinding, drilling or welding then it becomes very unclear where balancing a crankshaft then becomes a performance advantage by removing a little extra.

To date DD bikes have proved fairly reliable with very few blow ups and little debris being left on the track for others to hit.
So if the rule can't be policed then it becomes meaningless and may as well be dropped which then leaves the way open to those that want to push the limits of crankshaft reliability vs weight.

Is it a gray area or is no Mods Clear enough
personally I don't see the need to modify the crankshaft on a DD bike as they do come with a certain degree of balancing from the factory and like the rule in its current state, as it should make the series easier to police.

I have owned bikes even back in the 80's such as my CB900F taken out to 1065, Carillo rods, Drysump, lightened, balanced and knife-edged crank so do know why its done and the benifits to be gained against the reliability factor.
But I certainly don't want to see DD heading down this route.

[Lily]

I couldn't even tell you what a crankshaft looked like, let alone the benefits of balancing or lightening it :confused:

[Scooter916]

Mine is balanced.... On the paint tins in the garage, Reminds me I really should start my prep...

[vespa]

Differences in crankshaft weight, which as Chaz says have been factory balanced are normal so not a discriminant.

And, lets put that somebody protests you because thinks you have your crank balanced: pays 250 to strip the engine, balancing would be undetectable unless a reputable qualified Ducati engineer ceritifies the modification, and you will be left with an engine in pieces which will cost 500 pounds to reassemble. It will be cheaper to pay the 150 fee..

Moreover, lets put the case somebody has to change one or two pistons in a 583, which currently are out of production, he/she will be forced to use non OEM pistons which again is against the rules.
Curently the only OEM pistons available from Ducati dealers come with barrels at ~600pounds/pair....cheap
Replacing the pistons with used standard will need re-balancing for a good result and increased engine reliability. However I am not technician and I don't pretend to be. I agree with Chaz though.

Why not limit the rules' policing within weight/bhp?

[Chaz]

We are back to the subject of second hand bikes! I know for a fact that engines have been stripped by the likes of JHP/Louigi Moto & found to be illegal & the present owner had no idea! so you buy a bike in good faith what do you do? pay out a load of cash to have it checked! or trust the honesty of the seller?
There are quite a lot of bikes out there that have changed hands.

[skidlids]

Yet you can buy a standard 583cc engine from a breakers for £250 stick new belts on it, give it a oil and filter change Put it in a chassis and then stick it on the podium.

So why spend so much money on all these engine rebuilds, new pistons etc.
I've see engine bills from £900 to £1350 for rebuilds without any crankshaft balancing and if you really think the balancing is going to improve your results, I doubt it.
Where as a bit of lightening for quicker acceleration (still the same bhp and weight, bit like fitting a lightweight flywheel) may help with the results as that would be cheating and I along with others would rather not have cheating going on in DD.

Now if the easy way to police it is to ban Cranksharft modifications of any sort then I'm all for it and thats how the rules have been for the last 4 seasons.
Currently modifying the crankshaft in any way is breaking the rules, is that rule not Clear enough.

Saying it is better for the bike to have the crank balanced isn't much different from saying its better for the bike to run Ohlins forks, Mag wheels or Diablo Corsas and just ignore the rules so long as it meets the BHP and weight limits.
Or is it the risk of getting caught out that determines what rules people follow and which they choose to ignore.

Here is a bit from the Sigma Performance website, they are on about the 944cc Monster but I bet the same applies to the 600

" it would be nice to rebalance the crankshaft to make sure the engine is smooth…….experience has taught us however that the 900 twin is quite resilient in terms of crankshaft balance (an alternative explanation is that its not very sophisticated engine as standard and a mere 75gram change in piston weight isn't going to make a big difference!!)."

[Chaz]

Yet you can buy a standard 583cc engine from a breakers for £250 stick new belts on it, give it a oil and filter change Put it in a chassis and then stick it on the podium.

So why spend so much money on all these engine rebuilds, new pistons etc.
I've see engine bills from £900 to £1350 for rebuilds without any crankshaft balancing and if you really think the balancing is going to improve your results, I doubt it.
Where as a bit of lightening for quicker acceleration (still the same bhp and weight, bit like fitting a lightweight flywheel) may help with the results as that would be cheating and I along with others would rather not have cheating going on in DD.

Now if the easy way to police it is to ban Cranksharft modifications of any sort then I'm all for it and thats how the rules have been for the last 4 seasons.
Currently modifying the crankshaft in any way is breaking the rules, is that rule not Clear enough.

Saying it is better for the bike to have the crank balanced isn't much different from saying its better for the bike to run Ohlins forks, Mag wheels or Diablo Corsas and just ignore the rules so long as it meets the BHP and weight limits.
Or is it the risk of getting caught out that determines what rules people follow and which they choose to ignore.

Here is a bit from the Sigma Performance website, they are on about the 944cc Monster but I bet the same applies to the 600

" it would be nice to rebalance the crankshaft to make sure the engine is smooth…….experience has taught us however that the 900 twin is quite resilient in terms of crankshaft balance (an alternative explanation is that its not very sophisticated engine as standard and a mere 75gram change in piston weight isn't going to make a big difference!!)."

I agree with you about getting motors from a breaker that is what I would do, not to many 620/6speed around though & later 583's are getting harder to find.

[vespa]

Yet you can buy a standard 583cc engine from a breakers for £250
..as if I have not looked for one...No chance. Let me know if you find one please.

So why spend so much money on all these engine rebuilds, new pistons etc.
because the front piston is grooved and I cannot find a replacement. A dealer
has a HC pistons but no OEM which are unavailable even in Bologna unless you buy the barrel.

I am not looking for increased performance, just peace of mind that my engine will not blow up. There is no point in giving out obviously not pertinent comment on forks and tyres.

Thanks

[paynep]

I have read recently on another website about a DD bike having its crankshaft balanced.

From previous experience of this type of work it usually include one of the following
Grinding Metal away
Drilling or Milling away metal
Weldiing to add metal

Now with the DD rules concerning Crankshafts having remained unchanged in this area since the very first set of rule for the 2005 Season V1.01 up to the latest set of rules, they have always stated NO MODIFICATIONS TO THE CRANKSHAFT ARE ALLOWED.

Current rule reads
1.6.21 Crankshaft
No modifications are allowed (including polishing and lightening).


The only way you can get round it is to have a large selection of pistons and rods available and to balance the whole reciprocating mass (ie crank, piston and rods) by substituting different standard OEM parts.

So once again, if you have the money and/or can go to the specialists you can get a better(?) motor than taking pot luck on what the factory puts together.

Although, from a purely hypothetical stance for a racebike I wouldn't see the point in balancing a crankshaft without lightening it as well, and then you may as well go the whole hog and use a lighter flywheel and flow the heads too...:devil:

Who's website was it? I've checked mine for typos! :lol:

[ChrisBushell]

..as if I have not looked for one...No chance. Let me know if you find one please.


because the front piston is grooved and I cannot find a replacement. A dealer
has a HC pistons but no OEM which are unavailable even in Bologna unless you buy the barrel.

I am not looking for increased performance, just peace of mind that my engine will not blow up. There is no point in giving out obviously not pertinent comment on forks and tyres.

Thanks

Alesandro,

I have confirmed this afternoon that the pistons are available from the factory, please contact Ducati Coventry and they will sort you out.

Ultimately the rules have been the same on balancing (that it is not allowed) since the start of the series and from memory we have only had one motor blow up (Ali's fire in year 1). To a certain extent balancing, expecially on the Class B engines is not worth the expense as they do not rev that high anyway and are somewhat overengineered for 52bhp.

Chris

[Scooter916]

What markings are on your piston, I have 2 used ones that are still very useable, Yours for now't if they are the correct ones.
Glyn

..as if I have not looked for one...No chance. Let me know if you find one please.


because the front piston is grooved and I cannot find a replacement. A dealer
has a HC pistons but no OEM which are unavailable even in Bologna unless you buy the barrel.

I am not looking for increased performance, just peace of mind that my engine will not blow up. There is no point in giving out obviously not pertinent comment on forks and tyres.

Thanks

[vespa]

No Chis,
pistons for 583 are not available anywhere unless you buy the barrels and cost in excess of 350 pounds a piece. Baines has suggested to arrange production of 80mm pistons for 583 for DD which can be doen for appox. 70 pounds/piece but they won't be OEM...

[vespa]

What markings are on your piston, I have 2 used ones that are still very useable, Yours for now't if they are the correct ones.
Glyn
Thanks a lot Glyn,
What do you mean by markings? I know that the brand is MP but if you have 2 of the same brand available it won't matter. My front piston is grooved unfortunately...

[chris.p]

Matt & I have spoken, well argued:rolleyes: about this, what is the factory tolerence on wheight, is it "A" - x and + X if so, then that could solve the argument and the rules could be changed to allow balancing (only) of the crank, but not polishing or knife edging but stay with in the wheight tolerences of the factory original specification.


Chris:burn:

[Scooter916]

Thanks a lot Glyn,
What do you mean by markings? I know that the brand is MP but if you have 2 of the same brand available it won't matter. My front piston is grooved unfortunately...
They have an A or B stamped on the top of the piston usually That is matched to an a or b on the Barrels.
Will check what I have and let you know
Glyn

[skidlids]

Picked up a 8500 mile late 583cc Monster engine in October off Ebay for less than £300, then picked up a similar engine on New Years day for less and the guy had older 583 engines sat on his garage floor,
I'll dig the contact details out

The 1998 Monster engine in Dallas's 583 cost me £250 and without any carb work, cam timing or a like, just belts and oil/filter he was able to run at the front with Harriet at Cadwell.

The PB bike that Luke rode to a podium at Mallory had a bog stock engine, again not even a Dynojet kit and I doubt if the engine had been apart since it had left the factory in 1995.

As Paynep (humouros post Paul) well knows spending your money on track time can reap better rewards than spending it on the bike
ask yourself could another rider get your bike around the track quicker than you, if the answer is Yes, work on the riding not the bike

The problem isn't with balancing as I believe there is little to be gained for the cost involved, its the modification.
As there are two types of Crankshaft
1, unmodified
2, modified
the second group can include lightened, knife-edged, stroked and balanced, so for policing reasons Unmodified is the way to go

[skidlids]

Matt & I have spoken, well argued:rolleyes: about this, what is the factory tolerence on wheight, is it "A" - x and + X if so, then that could solve the argument and the rules could be changed to allow balancing (only) of the crank, but not polishing or knife edging but stay with in the wheight tolerences of the factory original specification.


Chris:burn:

Chris it would not be easy to police, as I have already mentioned doing it on weight would require the crank to be fully stripped from the bike and then weighed on accurate scales and compare to a verified factory figure with a +/- tolerance.

and as the RC don't have to stump up any protest money (see extract from rule 2.1.1 below) is it worth the risk/cost of having a bike that is thought not to comply with the rules

2.1.1 Compliance Control
are placed in a parc-fermé for a period of at least 30 minutes.

Any motorcycle can be checked for compliance with these rules, and any other technical requirement, if requested by a representative of the DSC Race Committee.

The DSC Race Committee may require a rider or team to provide such parts or samples as they deem necessary without the need to resort to the ACU protest procedure.


At no point do you have to ask your engine builder to balance the crankshaft and they can't make you do it, the rules clearly say No Modifications, its the same rule for everybody.

[nogaromill998]

I think Skids is referring to my post on Ducatisti, in my 09 prep thread, where I stated that my crank was ready to pick up after balancing. The crank and all associated parts are made with certain tolerances. When you hand the entire mass over for balancing ( crank, rods, pistons, gudgeon pins, circlips ) all thats done is to make sure that WITHIN THE FACTORY TOLERANCES the crank is not running out of balance. What I have had done is nothing to do with performance enhancement, just to try to ensure the engine doesnt fly apart. NOTHING has been lightened outside tolerances, NOTHING has been polished, its just been PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY, no more no less. Its a bog std 583 crank, with bog std 583 rods, and bog std 583 pistons, and bog std 583 gudgeon pins, and bog std everything. I have several engines and have mixed and matched parts.....so balancing is then an absolute necessity imho. NOT lightening or polishing, BALANCING. Its NOT been modified in any way shape or form, nor even has it been lightened to get to minimum factory weight, just put together to run evenly, bearing in mind it was an engine that I had bought that had been sat in a wet shed for a year, it all HAD to come apart as all the bearings needed renewing. No modifications could go so far as meaning using std gaskets instead of 3 bond for instance, or not shimming the crank to take into account the lack of gaskets today. the rules also state :
Wheels including diameter and rim width must remain as originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5”, Rear Wheel 17” X 4.5
but we all know 748/916 wheels are used......I think some common sense needs to prevail here.

[Chaz]

I think Skids is referring to my post on Ducatisti, in my 09 prep thread, where I stated that my crank was ready to pick up after balancing. The crank and all associated parts are made with certain tolerances. When you hand the entire mass over for balancing ( crank, rods, pistons, gudgeon pins, circlips ) all thats done is to make sure that WITHIN THE FACTORY TOLERANCES the crank is not running out of balance. What I have had done is nothing to do with performance enhancement, just to try to ensure the engine doesnt fly apart. NOTHING has been lightened outside tolerances, NOTHING has been polished, its just been PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY, no more no less. Its a bog std 583 crank, with bog std 583 rods, and bog std 583 pistons, and bog std 583 gudgeon pins, and bog std everything. I have several engines and have mixed and matched parts.....so balancing is then an absolute necessity imho. NOT lightening or polishing, BALANCING. Its NOT been modified in any way shape or form, nor even has it been lightened to get to minimum factory weight, just put together to run evenly.

According to the rules it's illegal then;)

[chris.p]

Chris it would not be easy to police, as I have already mentioned doing it on weight would require the crank to be fully stripped from the bike and then weighed on accurate scales and compare to a verified factory figure with a +/- tolerance.

and as the RC don't have to stump up any protest money (see extract from rule 2.1.1 below) is it worth the risk/cost of having a bike that is thought not to comply with the rules

2.1.1 Compliance Control
are placed in a parc-fermé for a period of at least 30 minutes.

Any motorcycle can be checked for compliance with these rules, and any other technical requirement, if requested by a representative of the DSC Race Committee.

The DSC Race Committee may require a rider or team to provide such parts or samples as they deem necessary without the need to resort to the ACU protest procedure.


At no point do you have to ask your engine builder to balance the crankshaft and they can't make you do it, the rules clearly say No Modifications, its the same rule for everybody.



There you go Matt, I think I win;) :D


Chris:burn:

[Rattler]

.....the rules also state :
Wheels including diameter and rim width must remain as originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5”, Rear Wheel 17” X 4.5
but we all know 748/916 wheels are used......I think some common sense needs to prevail here.

But that is cheating then, you would be well within your rights to protest those that run 916 type wheels and your protest would be upheld.

Or are you saying its OK to cheat because others have done it?

[nogaromill998]

Not at all Tim, cheating should not be allowed. My understanding of the rules is that no mods are allowed to the crank, and as far as I can see balancing a crank is merely good practice, not cheating in anyway, as I have already said, it is absolutely bog standard in everyway, with no performance enhancement inferred or gained from just putting the thing together properly. I handed them a crank, 3 sets of rods and pistons and gudgeon pins, circlips piston rings etc and told them to balance the thing.

[AK]

i am so glad we dont do this any more.
have a nice day everybody, as we do now :) :) :)

sorry if you think i am taking the pi55 but this is something i realy dont miss :smug:

just goes to show you have to be careful what you say as blueprinting means putting the engine together properly as not many factory engines are put together to within close tolerance.
What nogaro has done is the right thing for the engine as in putting it together properly which some people call blueprinting.

im going to butt out now as my 6pworth is just spent.

[Rattler]

Not at all Tim, cheating should not be allowed. My understanding of the rules is that no mods are allowed to the crank, and as far as I can see balancing a crank is merely good practice, not cheating in anyway, as I have already said, it is absolutely bog standard in everyway, with no performance enhancement inferred or gained from just putting the thing together properly. I handed them a crank, 3 sets of rods and pistons and gudgeon pins, circlips piston rings etc and told them to balance the thing.

No issues with the crank - but it sounds like Class B is the new Class A with a selection of engine parts available to create the best engine - nice work. ;)

Part of the challenge and enjoyment for me of DD was creating and building a bike that was within the rules, but took advantage of any available advantages that could be had by applying the rules. Sounds like you've done that with the crank, by using OEM parts that best match (without any machining) to run as efficiently as possible.

My point was about the wheels, if riders are cheating (knowingly or otherwise) by using illegal wheels then they should be protested, or better still, a quiet word should be had with them to point out that they are outside of the rules if they don't run a 583 or 620 OEM wheels. Then they avoid getting protested (and paying out £s) and also avoid getting black-balled by the rest of the paddock.

Maybe its time to plan and run an early "this is what you can do to a DD bike and this is what you can't" session.

Or maybe as part of a FAQ list in the DD section?

Tim

[Rattler]

i am so glad we dont do this any more.
have a nice day everybody, as we do now :) :) :)

sorry if you think i am taking the pi55 but this is something i realy dont miss :smug:



Get out of it, this is why you still read the DD section !!!! ;)

Anyway, its bloody freezing outside, we can't ride our bikes and the season is months away, what else can we do??? :eek:

And its a laugh.

[Lily]

No issues with the crank - but it sounds like Class B is the new Class A with a selection of engine parts available to create the best engine - nice work. ;)

Part of the challenge and enjoyment for me of DD was creating and building a bike that was within the rules, but took advantage of any available advantages that could be had by applying the rules. Sounds like you've done that with the crank, by using OEM parts that best match (without any machining) to run as efficiently as possible.

My point was about the wheels, if riders are cheating (knowingly or otherwise) by using illegal wheels then they should be protested, or better still, a quiet word should be had with them to point out that they are outside of the rules if they don't run a 583 or 620 OEM wheels. Then they avoid getting protested (and paying out £s) and also avoid getting black-balled by the rest of the paddock.

Maybe its time to plan and run an early "this is what you can do to a DD bike and this is what you can't" session.

Or maybe as part of a FAQ list in the DD section?

Tim

ok... two questions..

how can you tell the difference in the wheels - is it obvious for numpties lke me?

second - I assume the wheel I got from you was kosher :D

[Rattler]

ok... two questions..

how can you tell the difference in the wheels - is it obvious for numpties lke me?

second - I assume the wheel I got from you was kosher :D

I think its more of a 583 thing? But could be wrong. As the earlier wheels were a lot heavier than the later 620 Monster and Sport ones. I only ran 620 wheels on my 620 ( I don't know if the 916 type are any lighter than these anyway) - so the one I sold you is fine as its an original 620 wheel.

[AK]

Get out of it, this is why you still read the DD section !!!! ;)

Anyway, its bloody freezing outside, we can't ride our bikes and the season is months away, what else can we do??? :eek:

And its a laugh.

a month away tim just a month
and yes, i like to delve in here on occasions not to remind me of the politics and borrocks that i dont miss any more, but to enjoy the banter with the dd people still.
after all if it wasnt for dd then we wouldnt be doing what we do now in running in a great club which has televised racing all season :p

[nogaromill998]

As far as I am concerned I have no truck with cheating. As far as I am aware I have neither broken nor infringed any rules, neither have I gone against the spirit of DesmoDue. To harp on about keeping costs down is just nonsensical when you permit the use of plenty of non standard parts. EVERYTHING in my engine is standard, and within factory tolerance, as it was last year and will be next year. What I have had done is good assembly practice, no more no less.

[skidlids]

i am so glad we dont do this any more.
have a nice day everybody, as we do now :) :) :)

sorry if you think i am taking the pi55 but this is something i realy dont miss :smug:

just goes to show you have to be careful what you say as blueprinting means putting the engine together properly as not many factory engines are put together to within close tolerance.
What nogaro has done is the right thing for the engine as in putting it together properly which some people call blueprinting.

im going to butt out now as my 6pworth is just spent.

I know what you mean Alan, SoT rules were always quite easy to comply with but then again it was far more costl than DD.
What rules a series does have need to be clear, for that to happen we need to close out gray areas

As for blue printing there is the large factory way or the small team way.

Large factory, take 1000 of each component and find a pair that best meets the design spec and use them, no modification required

Small team way, take the pair of items that you have in your engine and modify one so that it matches the other.

Now if you go some where in between and start with several items and get them matched up as best as possible without modification then thats fine by DD rules but if modifications are carried out then rules are being broken.

What would be next porting/flowing heads so that both heads flow exactly the same, anybody got the factory figure for the CFM of a 620 cylinder head, I know the rules say no material can be added or removed but surely its just good practice and therefore I should be allowed to do it :p

[Rattler]

a month away tim just a month
and yes, i like to delve in here on occasions not to remind me of the politics and borrocks that i dont miss any more, but to enjoy the banter with the dd people still.
after all if it wasnt for dd then we wouldnt be doing what we do now in running in a great club which has televised racing all season :p

A month? Is there a class for these? ;)
http://www.snowmobileshuffle.com/images/snowmobile-for-sale-picture.jpg

[vespa]

Not at all Tim, cheating should not be allowed. My understanding of the rules is that no mods are allowed to the crank, and as far as I can see balancing a crank is merely good practice, not cheating in anyway, as I have already said, it is absolutely bog standard in everyway, with no performance enhancement inferred or gained from just putting the thing together properly. I handed them a crank, 3 sets of rods and pistons and gudgeon pins, circlips piston rings etc and told them to balance the thing.

That's what I understand. It's like putting balancing weights to the wheels then :)

[nogaromill998]

Very good analogy Alex, you are adding material there but it gives no performance advantage, just makes the wheel run correctly.

[chris.p]

That's what I understand. It's like putting balancing weights to the wheels then :)


PMSL :lol: :lol:


Chris:burn:

[paynep]

the rules also state :
Wheels including diameter and rim width must remain as originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5”, Rear Wheel 17” X 4.5
but we all know 748/916 wheels are used......I think some common sense needs to prevail here.

Quite right re the last sentence

For example the same front wheel (501.2.069.1AB) is fitted to both MY03 620 and 750 Monsters.
So if I took a front wheel off a 750Monster from another year and used it, would it be illegal?

Mind you, my bike has a 900ss frame, Mhe900e forks, a 750ss rear wheel and an ST2 front wheel so I might as well be banned now and save on all the race entries...:lol:

[Chaz]

Stick bit's of lead on the crank:eek:

[Lily]

A month? Is there a class for these? ;)
http://www.snowmobileshuffle.com/images/snowmobile-for-sale-picture.jpg

count me in.. i can crash them just as well as a DD bike :D

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/ducatilil/P1000230.jpg

[Chaz]

Alesandro,

I have confirmed this afternoon that the pistons are available from the factory, please contact Ducati Coventry and they will sort you out.

Ultimately the rules have been the same on balancing (that it is not allowed) since the start of the series and from memory we have only had one motor blow up (Ali's fire in year 1). To a certain extent balancing, expecially on the Class B engines is not worth the expense as they do not rev that high anyway and are somewhat overengineered for 52bhp.

Chris

Say no more He that should be obayed has spoken;).

[skidlids]

But the wheel is not modified in any way by adding weights, it is just balanced and yes the same can apply to a complete crankshaft assembly, in that you can mix and match rods pistons etc to balance a crank without having to modify the crankshaft.
But few people resort modifying by drilling or grinding their wheels to acheive balance.
So back to the rule, it says No modification of the Crankshaft, It does not say no balancing of the crankshaft asembly by selecting matchingcomponents

As for 916 wheels as far as I know a 916 front wheel is no different from a 620 front wheel and as the rule says
1.6.5 Wheels

Wheels including diameter and rim width must remain as originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5”, Rear Wheel 17” X 4.5”

There is no issue with using a 620 front or rear wheel in a 583 and if the 748/916 front wheel is the same part as a 620 it can also be used.
Did they fit any 620s with 5 spokes as found in the 996, if not then I doubt these would be allowed

[Rattler]

count me in.. i can crash them just as well as a DD bike :D

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l282/ducatilil/P1000230.jpg

Is that Druids? ;)

[Rattler]

Quite right re the last sentence

For example the same front wheel (501.2.069.1AB) is fitted to both MY03 620 and 750 Monsters.
So if I took a front wheel off a 750Monster from another year and used it, would it be illegal?

Mind you, my bike has a 900ss frame, Mhe900e forks, a 750ss rear wheel and an ST2 front wheel so I might as well be banned now and save on all the race entries...:lol:

...there's a saying that goes along the lines of ".......won't be troubling the scorers!!" ;)

[paynep]

Did they fit any 620s with 5 spokes as found in the 996, if not then I doubt these would be allowed

Nope, not even the Capirex as standard - I've already checked.

Mind you, there are mag wheels listed in the DP catalog as suitable for the 620s - surely that complies with "originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5” " ?? Then I figured the 500quid would be better spent on improving ability through tracktime or Magners. Guess what I chose?

[paynep]

...there's a saying that goes along the lines of ".......won't be troubling the scorers!!" ;)

No change there then :(

Think I'd better use the spare bike then - oh wait, its got a 999 fuse in it :lol:

[mjbayley]

But the wheel is not modified in any way by adding weights, it is just balanced and yes the same can apply to a complete crankshaft assembly, in that you can mix and match rods pistons etc to balance a crank without having to modify the crankshaft.
But few people resort modifying by drilling or grinding their wheels to acheive balance.
So back to the rule, it says No modification of the Crankshaft, It does not say no balancing of the crankshaft asembly by selecting matchingcomponents

As for 916 wheels as far as I know a 916 front wheel is no different from a 620 front wheel and as the rule says
1.6.5 Wheels

Wheels including diameter and rim width must remain as originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5”, Rear Wheel 17” X 4.5”

There is no issue with using a 620 front or rear wheel in a 583 and if the 748/916 front wheel is the same part as a 620 it can also be used.
Did they fit any 620s with 5 spokes as found in the 996, if not then I doubt these would be allowed



To quote Sir Falon's Monster and SS book:

1998 onwards

Frame and Cycle Parts

" With Brembo wheels..........from the 916 and ST2 having larger diam. (25mm) axles.........."

".....the wheels were also lighter than before at 225 grams on the front and 800 grams on the rear"

It's easy to spot which ones they are if you compare them side by side.
However, ther is only one sort that will slot straight into a Monnie or SS without palava with the rear wheel bearings and wheel bearing spacers.

(and I'm not gonna tell you which one that is.......;-) )
MarkO

[skidlids]

Nope, not even the Capirex as standard - I've already checked.

Mind you, there are mag wheels listed in the DP catalog as suitable for the 620s - surely that complies with "originally produced by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes.
Front wheel 17” X 3.5” " ?? Then I figured the 500quid would be better spent on improving ability through tracktime or Magners. Guess what I chose?

Drinking Magners while riding around a track by any chance
Would explain a few things :)

Maybe the wording should be changed to "originally fiited by Ducati since 1992 for the 600/620 bikes

[nogaromill998]

To a certain extent balancing, expecially on the Class B engines is not worth the expense as they do not rev that high anyway and are somewhat overengineered for 52bhp.

That is an opinion, nothing more. And at the end of the day there is a bhp limit anyway......

[Matt-T28]

Just to add my own thoughts on this subject,

I dont see myself that David will have anything better than someone else will have.

The rules are designed to be fair to people and designed so that no one person can have an unfair advantage to somebody else.

David hasn't got anything in his engine that would not have come out of the factory in another bike on a different day of the week.
Its just that some engines are better than others as some will have fractionaly lighter parts, thats just the way it is. Its luck of the draw but all David has done is to turn his engine from a slower one with slightly heavier parts into one of the better engines.

I dont see the problem with that, as someone could go out tomorrow and buy an engine thats never been apart before that has a lighter crank than his but it would still be a standard engine.

[vespa]

So balancing actually reduces the chances of engine failure. You don't need to do it but once you open you engine it would be daft not to do it, as long as you keep within the factory weight tolerance limit. An alternative as somebody suggested would be to buy another engine atogether, play and pray...

http://www.purplemoon.com/Stickers/pray-handsbw.jpg

[Matt-T28]

So balancing actually reduces the chances of engine failure. You don't need to do it but once you open you engine it would be daft not to do it, as long as you keep within the factory weight tolerance limit. An alternative as somebody suggested would be to buy another engine atogether, play and pray...




I dont think its a case of that really Alex, these engines are about as agricultural as bike engines get and the chances of one flying apart because it didn't have a few grams added or removed here and there are pretty slim!

I guess it would reduce the chances of a failure but by a very very small margin, I think as far as reliability goes, we are probably racing in one of the series with the least mechanical failures on record.

I dont know what the answer is, but it is nice that people are so meticulous about the preperation of their bikes. I agree with Kev in a big way about it being time on the bike that makes the biggest difference, but knowing that what you have under you is good also helps confidence.

[skidlids]

Just to add my own thoughts on this subject,

David hasn't got anything in his engine that would not have come out of the factory in another bike on a different day of the week.
Its just that some engines are better than others as some will have fractionaly lighter parts, thats just the way it is. Its luck of the draw but all David has done is to turn his engine from a slower one with slightly heavier parts into one of the better engines.

I dont see the problem with that, as someone could go out tomorrow and buy an engine thats never been apart before that has a lighter crank than his but it would still be a standard engine.

But someone elses could have come out of the factory with poorer flowing heads due to factory tolerances, which wll cause the engine to run out of balance
So where does this line of acceptance get drawn ? is it when everybody can pay out to have there engine Blue printed to factory spec

As for reliability One blow up in 4 seasons under the No modification rule would suggest that as they come from the factory they are pretty reliable

[vespa]

for me personally the bottom line is that this year I just want concentrate on my riding and forget about mechanical issues and if balancing aids it I welcome it!

[Matt-T28]

What engine rules are in place for Superstock racing?

Surely what we have is a similar kind of thing to that?

[nogaromill998]

1.6.21 Crankshaft

No modifications are allowed (including polishing and lightening).


Thats what the rules say quite clearly. Where does it say that balancing is disallowed?

[skidlids]

With regard to the crankshaft rule that we have had in the rule book for the 4 previous years, no doubt there are some out there that have already ignored that rule and had work done and got away with it. sadly thats human nature

BUT what is it that is now wrong with that rule.
Its very clear, its in black and white, easy to understand.
So why would we now need to change it.

Excuse 1 = Improve reliability = evidence already says they are reliable
Excuse 2 = Somebody may have a better one than me = and some probably haven't
Excuse 3 = Its good practice = only if the factory balancing is along way out and it costs just to find out
Excuse 4 = No Modification doesn't mean I can't modify it = says who
I'm sure if I read back through the topic I will come across a few more excuses

[skidlids]

1.6.21 Crankshaft

No modifications are allowed (including polishing and lightening).


Thats what the rules say quite clearly. Where does it say that balancing is disallowed?


just here

1.6 Machine Specifications

All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by Ducati on a 600 or 620 aircooled 2 valve model.

[nogaromill998]

It ISNT modified......not in any way, how many more times Kev? And who are you or anyone else to determine someones right to do something within the rules that costs anything if they so choose? If someone wants to spend the money to make sure the engine is as well put together as it can be why cant they? It doesnt say ANYWHERE in the rules that there is a ceiling or a limit on what may/may not be spent on any one area of the bike build? if someone wants to spend £500 on a Nitron shock would you tell them it goes agains the spirit of DD ? Why not have a set of rules that says you can do NOTHING to a Class B bike save remove lights, stand etc, if you really are on a crusade to save other people's money for them? What happened to freedom of choice WITHIN THE RULES?

[nogaromill998]

just here

1.6 Machine Specifications

All items not mentioned in the following articles must remain as originally produced by Ducati on a 600 or 620 aircooled 2 valve model.


It doesnt mention wheel balancing either. Is that also disallowed under the same blanket?

[skidlids]

It doesnt mention wheel balancing either. Is that also disallowed under the same blanket?

try reading the rules rather than making your own up

1.7.1 The following items MAY be altered or replaced from those fitted to the homologated motorcycle:

Any type of lubrication, brake or suspension fluid may be used.

Any type of spark plug.

Any inner tube (if fitted) or inflation valves may be used.

Wheel balance weights may be discarded, changed or added to.

If used Wheel balance weights must be suitably taped.

Gaskets and gasket materials.

Instrument and instrument bracket and associated cables.

Painted external surface finishes and decals.

[webteam]

An interesting discussion and one I that I've enjoyed reading (even if I am in anorak mode for a while).

A question:

If someone has a big end failure and NEEDS to rebuild and finds the crank is scored:

Does this then mean that for DD racing (using our rules) it means a replacement crank straight away???

Also -
My basic impression of 'balancing' is that it matches components (or, yes - alters them) to reduce vibration and hence increase reliability....

But perhaps someone might like to explain further

Cheers - Frank

[nogaromill998]

Then go through EVERY DD bike and make sure NOTHING on any of them is modified beyond your interpretation of the rules Kev. Thats the only fair thing to do...or adopt a common sense approach and accept that balancing does NOT involve modification or polishing or lightening, and neither does it give any performance advantage whatsoever.

[NBs996]

Nog, how was your crank balanced?
If it involved removing material in any way then the rules say it's not allowed.
Factory tolerances? Was the item found to be outside these tolerances to start with? If not then your arguement for reliability falls down, it's good enough as it is and doesn't NEED balancing.

For what it's worth, (assuming material has been removed in order to balance it) I don't see what you've done is giving any noticable performance advantage, so personally wouldn't have a problem with it.
BUT... it's subjective to opinion isn't it? So what must be done is simply follow the rule book and not have an entrant try arguing that his/her opinion is of higher importance than the written rules we've all subscribed to.

[paynep]

accept that balancing does NOT involve modification or polishing or lightening

Ok, that seems fair enough.....

and neither does it give any performance advantage whatsoever.

...but now you rather shoot down your own argument. If it makes it smoother/more reliable then is that not giving you an advantage over someone who does not balance their crank?

[bradders]

Nog, how was your crank balanced?
If it involved removing material in any way then the rules say it's not allowed.
Factory tolerances? Was the item found to be outside these tolerances to start with? If not then your arguement for reliability falls down, it's good enough as it is and doesn't NEED balancing.

For what it's worth, (assuming material has been removed in order to balance it) I don't see what you've done is giving any noticable performance advantage, so personally wouldn't have a problem with it.
BUT... it's subjective to opinion isn't it? So what must be done is simply follow the rule book and not have an entrant try arguing that his/her opinion is of higher importance than the written rules we've all subscribed to.

too much sense in this post....


if its just had parts mixed and matched, but not modified and standard parts from standard ebngines, surely thats fine isnt it? only if its actually been changed to bring in to whatever tolarance and has it therefore been modified. Thats how I read and interprit the rules, seems simple?!?!

[skidlids]

It ISNT modified......not in any way, how many more times Kev? And who are you or anyone else to determine someones right to do something within the rules that costs anything if they so choose? If someone wants to spend the money to make sure the engine is as well put together as it can be why cant they? It doesnt say ANYWHERE in the rules that there is a ceiling or a limit on what may/may not be spent on any one area of the bike build? if someone wants to spend £500 on a Nitron shock would you tell them it goes agains the spirit of DD ? Why not have a set of rules that says you can do NOTHING to a Class B bike save remove lights, stand etc, if you really are on a crusade to save other people's money for them? What happened to freedom of choice WITHIN THE RULES?

I'm obviosly missing something here

The rules clearly state that the Crankshft can not be modified and also state it must remain as originally produced by Ducati,

It does not say as designed by Ducati

If your Crankshaft has not been modified during the balancing procedure it is within the rules, if it has been machined (modified) to balance it then it is in breach of the rules.

I have no problem with people doing anything within the rules and don't care how much they pay to have it done providing they then don't bitch about the cost of racing.
But with the rules as they are which includes phrases such as No modification or must remain as originally produced by Ducati, there is only so much that can be done and that in itself helps stop costs spiralling out of control to the sort of levels seen in SoT racing.

Having a crankshaft machined to balance it is Modifying it to improve its performance, otherwise why would anybody bother or is what the Ducati Factory put out just cr4p

I agree balancing alone gives no real noticeable power or acceleration increase so why bother spending the money, breaking the rules and having it done. Over the years many have abided by these rules so why would we need to change them now

The point is the rules on crankshafts say No Modifications, yet you have your own interpretaion of the wording taking it to mean altering the balance of the crankshaft to meet a better spec than that delivered by Ducati.

Now if the rule included wording like that it would be taken by some as anything goes.
Finding suitable wording to allow a crankshaft to be balanced to a tighter factory toleance should't be to hard, but then it comes back to how to distinguish the difference between a crankshaft as supplied by the factory, one modified to balance it to meet a tighter factory tolerance and one that has been modified to give improved engine performance, without having to resort to full engine strips and crank removal for weighing something I would rather not see.

I started this post to gather views on what may well be a gray area as covered by the 3rd post on page 1.

and as this years rule book was ammended to try and clarify some issues and cut out gray areas this maybe one issue that slipped through the net.
I have said before if a rule can not be policed it has no value so either needs ammending or throwing out.

Now if a technical inspector could not tell if a crankshaft has been balanced by looking at it then the rule as it stands has little value.

This wasn't meant as a personal attack its just that your post stating that you had got your Crank balanced showed it was a subject that needs debating and a conclusion arrived at and I tend to gather as much information as possible to arrive at my own conclusions.
The thing is all evidence could point to leaving the rules as they are and altering a crankshaft to balance it be classed as a modification and deemed to be breaking the rules.
On the other hand it could point to the fact that unless someone states there crank is balanced by means of modifying it a technical inspector would never be able to tell (as weighing would only show a lightened crank) then the rule may have to be ammended.

My view is that if by looking at a crank you can tell it has been altered/modified even if only for balancing reasons then the current rules are good enough for policing the series, but if you cant tell by looking then ammend the rule.

[Jolley]

Just have a random dyno check at 1 or 2 rounds next year. If anyone has an unlawful amount of power we can worry about how they got it then.

[couchcommando]

Just a note one of the most powerful 583 engines seen was a lump bought off ebay with no history at all, it was checked and put in the bike. The dyno centre said it was the most worn loosest engine they had seen with the most piston slap ever when cold :(, it went on to produce the most power they have ever seen from a 583 and more than one or two 620's, it wouldn't last half a season they said.....2 years later it was still going :)

So don't waste time/money with new components buy an old shitter and enjoy the power ;)

[Murray Mint]

Just a note one of the most powerful 583 engines seen was a lump bought off ebay with no history at all, it was checked and put in the bike. The dyno centre said it was the most worn loosest engine they had seen with the most piston slap ever when cold :(, it went on to produce the most power they have ever seen from a 583 and more than one or two 620's, it wouldn't last half a season they said.....2 years later it was still going :)

So don't waste time/money with new components buy an old shitter and enjoy the power ;)

Thats pretty much the same story of my old 583, 52 BHP and it sounds like a bag of ****.

[harriebird]

worked for me (well it worked, i didn't!) - just balancing the carbs and plastic welding a crack in the airbox gave me an extra 2 bhp :eek:

my bike had been stood outside for 7 years before i (or rather my kind local dealer) got their hands on it.

[Rattler]

Just a note one of the most powerful 583 engines seen was a lump bought off ebay with no history at all, it was checked and put in the bike. The dyno centre said it was the most worn loosest engine they had seen with the most piston slap ever when cold :(, it went on to produce the most power they have ever seen from a 583 and more than one or two 620's, it wouldn't last half a season they said.....2 years later it was still going ;)

Oh, so it could have been an ex-race engine, with fully modified bottom-end, balanced, lighthened and optimised -;) - it all makes sense now :eek:

[nelly]

You'd never spot a crank that has been balanced tbh. It's nothing more than "perfecting" the spec'. Blueprinting if you like. No different to taking a pot of pistons and picking 2 that are the same weight, if you like.
Lightening is a different ball game and not cheap. If you were going to the expense of lightening a crank, you'd move some metal which would be obvious. A balance could be no more than taking another mm out of the holes that the factory drill in the first place.
There's very little, if any, performance advantage to be had. Reliabilty is main/only benefit. You'd get more by shimming the crank a little on the light side to get less drag on the mains.....

[nelly]

Only added after reading the first page, but now read it all :)
Frank brings up an interesting point....
If the big ends failed, would a crank regrind and oversize shells be illegal?? The rules, if followed to the letter, would indicate so. Surely common sense would prevail??
There's a distinct line between balancing and lightening.
I think the point made about "good practice" in building a good motor is well made. There's no performance benefit and policing it is nigh impossible.

[couchcommando]

Surely common sense would prevail??


That sort of talk won't be tolerated here !

[nelly]

:rolleye:

[paynep]

Only added after reading the first page, but now read it all :)
Frank brings up an interesting point....
If the big ends failed, would a crank regrind and oversize shells be illegal?? The rules, if followed to the letter, would indicate so.

Woohoo, if that was the case I've been breaking the rules for 2 years then, except when I was on the ex-Geoff Spencer bike.;)

I'll hand back all the trophies I won as a result :lol:

Anyone else bored of this thread yet?

[nelly]

Tut tut Paul ;)

[skidlids]

Only added after reading the first page, but now read it all :)
Frank brings up an interesting point....
If the big ends failed, would a crank regrind and oversize shells be illegal?? The rules, if followed to the letter, would indicate so. Surely common sense would prevail??
There's a distinct line between balancing and lightening.
I think the point made about "good practice" in building a good motor is well made. There's no performance benefit and policing it is nigh impossible.

With regard to possibly regrinding a crank after a blow up (how much would this cost against sourcing another crank) then surely the course of action would be to email the RC and seek permission to get it done.
Not unlike Paynep emailing and asking about using a different frame.

I agree that balancing a engine is good practice and to some extent this is carried out at the factory, but as the Desmo Due rules not only state no Modifications to the crankshaft but also that it should remain as it left the factory there are quite a few entrants out there that have followed the rules.

For example Senna3 had his engine rebuilt at Baines Racing last year including the fitting of two new pistons, Now I wouldn't dare suggest Geoff or John don't know how to assemble a Ducati engine be it air-cooled or water-cooled but they did not adjust/alter/modify the crank as they were asked to make sure it complied with the rules.

Surely it is one rule for all

Nelly I'm not sure how many Desmo Due engines you have built from the crankcases upwards, maybe none. But if you have, have you always applied best practice or have you left the crank well alone inline with the rules

[nelly]

A regrind and shells would most likely work out cheaper than sourcing another crank. You'd re-shell it anyway as a matter of course.

I've built several motors from the cases upwards, and yes, i always apply "best practices" so as to build a good, reliable motor.
If i was asked about balancing as part of a DD build, then i wouldn't have a problem having it done. I don't interpret it as being outside the rules.
The cranks are balanced at the factory. Further checking/balancing is merely checking that it's as close to optimium as possible. No different to setting the squish, filing the piston rings to make sure the gap is spot on, setting valve clearances, setting the air gaps on the pick ups........ There's more benefit to be had adjusting those than checking/having the crank balanced.
Who's to say that nog's crank went away, was checked and nothing needed doing? More than possible.
If i was asked to have the crank webs machined away and knife edged, then i'd suggest they take it somewhere else, if i was asked about balancing then i don't see the problem.

May well get asked a lot more now than in the last few years after this rivetting read :)

[skidlids]

Who's to say that nog's crank went away, was checked and nothing needed doing? More than possible.


But the thread wasn't meant to be just about Nogs crank, although the thread where it was mentioned was the catalyst for the initial question "No Modifications - what does it mean"

To me and many others No modification means leave well alone, if it doesn't and relates to meeting factory specifications I'm wondering if I can afford this little lot


one of my con rods is slightly heavier than the other and both are heavier than the minimum weight quoted by the factory, I know what I will do I will balance them so that the meet the factory minimum weight. After all the engine will be smoother and less likely to shake apart

Same as above goes for the new pistons

Also my rear cylinder head has a lower flow rate than the front cylinder head and I know someone elses flows more than that, so I think I'll get someone to alter them so they both match the higher flow rate of somebody elses engine, so long as I don't exceed the class bhp limit

Just been comparing camshafts and found mine have a fraction less lift than my mates and are even different to each other, I'll have to get them ground to the factory tolerance that will give the best performance. I'm not modifyong them as thats probably how some left the factory.

After checking the combustion chambers one is marginally smaller than the other so what I will do is match the other one to it, a quick skim will sufice after all its not really removing material as thats how it should have left the factory it just good practice to balance them out.

Just found out so and sos flywheel weighs a tad less than mine but is still within factory tolerance, I'll have to adjust mine to suit.

Crikey how much :o
be better off racing in CB5s

[faith-healer]

I make no apology for copying my posting from "the other channel"

I know we're all champing at the bit, waiting for the clocks to go forward on to race time, but ffs this is a total NON ISSUE

Blueprinting or balancing, what ever you want to call it, is NOT illegal under the rules.

If you take 100 new, identical (looking) OEM standard pistons or con rods and then weigh them there would probably be 80+ different weights for each part.

All Nogs' has done is find two pistons and 'rods that are very close, if not identical in weight....

IE. BALANCING.

Perhaps this topic has developed "legs" because so many DD'ers don't have a mechanical background and don't know or want to know what's going on under the tank. This is not a criticism



THIS IS

What a great advert for 'DD', this topic is, to any browsing newbie thinking of having a go!!!



........................They will run a mile and take up fishing

Charlie

[Lily]

lots of confusing stuff...


Crikey how much :o
be better off racing in CB5s

Kev

You don't actually have to do any of it you know so the expense to you is whatever you want it to be.
:)

[Senna3]

I make no apology for copying my posting from "the other channel"

I know we're all champing at the bit, waiting for the clocks to go forward on to race time, but ffs this is a total NON ISSUE

Blueprinting or balancing, what ever you want to call it, is NOT illegal under the rules.

If you take 100 new, identical (looking) OEM standard pistons or con rods and then weigh them there would probably be 80+ different weights for each part.

All Nogs' has done is find two pistons and 'rods that are very close, if not identical in weight....

IE. BALANCING.

Perhaps this topic has developed "legs" because so many DD'ers don't have a mechanical background and don't know or want to know what's going on under the tank. This is not a criticism



THIS IS

What a great advert for 'DD', this topic is, to any browsing newbie thinking of having a go!!!



........................They will run a mile and take up fishing

Charlie


Fishing
Have you seen the price of those rods and poles ,nets reels floats hooks spinners bait boxes and licences for the river and cannals and then sea fishing then ill need a boat how much think ill go racing its cheaper even if i BLUE PRINT MY ENGINE :lol::lol::lol:

CAN WE RACE YET OR ARE WE ALL OF TO THE SCRUTERNERS BAY:lol::lol:

[nelly]

But the thread wasn't meant to be just about Nogs crank, although the thread where it was mentioned was the catalyst for the initial question "No Modifications - what does it mean"

To me and many others No modification means leave well alone, if it doesn't and relates to meeting factory specifications I'm wondering if I can afford this little lot


one of my con rods is slightly heavier than the other and both are heavier than the minimum weight quoted by the factory, I know what I will do I will balance them so that the meet the factory minimum weight. After all the engine will be smoother and less likely to shake apart

Same as above goes for the new pistons

Also my rear cylinder head has a lower flow rate than the front cylinder head and I know someone elses flows more than that, so I think I'll get someone to alter them so they both match the higher flow rate of somebody elses engine, so long as I don't exceed the class bhp limit

Just been comparing camshafts and found mine have a fraction less lift than my mates and are even different to each other, I'll have to get them ground to the factory tolerance that will give the best performance. I'm not modifyong them as thats probably how some left the factory.

After checking the combustion chambers one is marginally smaller than the other so what I will do is match the other one to it, a quick skim will sufice after all its not really removing material as thats how it should have left the factory it just good practice to balance them out.

Just found out so and sos flywheel weighs a tad less than mine but is still within factory tolerance, I'll have to adjust mine to suit.

Crikey how much :o
be better off racing in CB5s

Skids, I understand what you're saying. I do. Hell, it could well be happening. Who knows? There may be a vast selection of 583 parts under someones bench being selectively pieced together into finely matched component sets..... (and no i don't have any room under my bench ;) )

I stand by previous posts though. I've turned work away because of what's been asked of me but I don't see an issue with building a good, reliable engine and if that included being asked to balance it then I would.

Just an aside though, if the RC do clarify the issue, and just suppose it was ruled against, how the hell would you check it?

[skidlids]

Kev

You don't actually have to do any of it you know so the expense to you is whatever you want it to be.
:)

I know I don't, so far I haven't even taken a head off any of my DD engines as the series is about cheap racing which s why I signed up for it as soon as it was announced having just thrown a F400 bike owing me £4k in the skip, a bike which was going to have given me cheaper racing than SoT or Powerbike

But it doesn't mean someone will not do it, if the rules permit the cheque books often come out in the hope of gaining some advantage

Me, I normally just buy a couple of engines set the valve clearances, fit new belts, dial in the cams, replace oil and filter and then get on and race.

Although this season may be different as I have just emailed the list of engine work (ok its Blueprinting) to the RC to see if I can get approval for any of them as it may prove a cheaper route to finding the 7bhp to take me up to the class limit without having to invest in a FIM ECU

[paynep]

I make no apology for copying my posting from "the other channel"

I know we're all champing at the bit, waiting for the clocks to go forward on to race time, but ffs this is a total NON ISSUE

Blueprinting or balancing, what ever you want to call it, is NOT illegal under the rules.

If you take 100 new, identical (looking) OEM standard pistons or con rods and then weigh them there would probably be 80+ different weights for each part.

All Nogs' has done is find two pistons and 'rods that are very close, if not identical in weight....

IE. BALANCING.

Perhaps this topic has developed "legs" because so many DD'ers don't have a mechanical background and don't know or want to know what's going on under the tank. This is not a criticism



THIS IS

What a great advert for 'DD', this topic is, to any browsing newbie thinking of having a go!!!



........................They will run a mile and take up fishing

Charlie

You're new here aren't you?:lol:

This is "normal" for close season - wait until the racing starts, ACU-approved handbag is a pre-requisite for the 'board...

PS Doesn't mean I disagree with you tho'

[skidlids]

Just an aside though, if the RC do clarify the issue, and just suppose it was ruled against, how the hell would you check it?

Be hard in this day and age with Human nature as it is
Honesty in racing and sticking to the rule book is diminishing each year, be it BSB or DD

[nogaromill998]

Kev, to a point I understand where you are coming from, but if you read all the threads on the other side you'd have had a clearer pic in the first place. The engine was bought and had been standing for a year plus in a wet shed and was in a right state, so it HAD to come apart. yes I COULD have just slung it in the frame, and made it work, but had I done so I would have run an 05 675cc big bore kit and have been none the wiser. Having discovered thats what the bike was fitted with I swapped the big bore kit for a set of std barrels, pistons etc and fitted them . Now who knows how the big bore kit affected the balance of the crank? I just cant see that making sure it was balanced by selecting from a number of components those giving the best balance is wrong in any way shape or form. You yourself said that you can buy engines cheaply enough, so being the owner of 4 of them I have ample parts to swap around...cost is therefore not an issue, and even if it were, its MY choice......NOTHING in the rules says there is a limit to how much I choose to spend on my bike.....and NOTHING in the rules says there is a limit to the number of spare parts I am permitted to own/use/swap between. As has already been said...what IS to be done if a crank regrind is needed ?

[nogaromill998]

Are you suggesting I am being dishonest Kev? Cheating in other words? Only needs a yes/no answer...

[nelly]

Be hard in this day and age with Human nature as it is
Honesty in racing and sticking to the rule book is diminishing each year, be it BSB or DD

It's always been there though Kev. There's more forums around today though ;)
Never saw Mike and Ago on one chatting did ya :lol:

[Senna3]

Ive got a good idea when we get to the meeting we all chuck our race numbers in a hat then in turn pick one out and wot ever number you get is wot bike you race we do this every time then we see who is who is it the rider or is it the bike :confused: :eek: :devil: :lol::lol:

[nelly]

Is that like the key ring game at partys........... or is that a totally different story :puzzled:

[nogaromill998]

I dunno but Senna seems quite familiar with that game ! Lol...

[Senna3]

I dunno but Senna seems quite familiar with that game ! Lol...

shhhh dont tell the wife she thinks im out training :lol::lol::lol:

[faith-healer]

One word.

....Perspective


.....F1 teams employ top engineering consultants who go through the latest FIA rule changes to see what they can get away with.....

....then they employ lawyers to confirm that the engineers are right...or wrong.

Any rule book will be "exploited" to the enth degree IF the financial rewards are worth it.

Crankshaft balancing in DesmoDue...Class A or Class B is, as I said before, a NON ISSUE.:lol: :lol: :lol:

[skidlids]

Are you suggesting I am being dishonest Kev? Cheating in other words? Only needs a yes/no answer...

A, was the crank asembley was balanced by matching components

B, Was the crank machined in anyway to acheive balance in which case it will have been modified from how it was supplied from the Ducati Factory

If its answer A then no rules have been broken
If its answer B then under the rules that have been in place for 5 years a rule has been broken, and breaking rules for a race series as far as I know is cheating, even if no advantage is gained.

Some rules are there to reduce costs, some for safety and some to keep things simple.

I don't think you are being dishonest or trying to gain an advantage as you certainly weren't trying to hide the fact that you have had some balancing work done.
But just because you interpret the rule your way doesn't mean others do and could leave you open to protest.

To argue maching is not modifying is a poor defence but if allowed opens the flood gates along the lines I mentioned earlier this evening.

When you sign up to the series you agree to abide by the rules, if your not happy with the rules you can submit a proposal for change to the RC, I have lost count of the amount I have submitted over the years.

If nothing had been mentioned then nobody would be any the wiser and the chance of getting protested on a modified crank very slim, especially as it looks like there may be a few more out there.

As with Senna3 he had his engine rebuilt at Baines Racing last year as it never seemed to go as well after his crash at Mallory in 2007 and dispite having new pistons and rings he did not have the crankshaft balanced as that would have required modifying it to how it left the factory which would have broken the rules. Now if Balancing is going to be allowed then I feel he and others in the same boat as him are going to loose out for their honesty.

A couple of years back Minitwins rules required the running of a standard airbox and even though a DD bike with a open airbox was never going to get near the 72bhp limit, my request to the Minitwin organisers (Tim Jones and Mike Edwards) to be able to run a open airbox was turned down, even though it gave me no advantage over a 72bhp SV650. So I abided by the rules and rode with a standard airbox, at least nobody could protest me for cheating, which is what they told meit would be viewed as.

Not the one word answer you were asking for, maybe an RC member will answer that one for you

[skidlids]

It's always been there though Kev.

And even to this day I hear rumours about the Taymar bikes back in the LC days.

what was so good about the R6 cup was all bikes were equal it was down to the rider to get the results not the team with the biggest budget or best engine tuner.

[bradders]

A, was the crank asembley was balanced by matching components

B, Was the crank machined in anyway to acheive balance in which case it will have been modified from how it was supplied from the Ducati Factory

If its answer A then no rules have been broken
If its answer B then under the rules that have been in place for 5 years a rule has been broken, and breaking rules for a race series as far as I know is cheating, even if no advantage is gained.

Some rules are there to reduce costs, some for safety and some to keep things simple.

I don't think you are being dishonest or trying to gain an advantage as you certainly weren't trying to hide the fact that you have had some balancing work done.
But just because you interpret the rule your way doesn't mean others do and could leave you open to protest.

To argue maching is not modifying is a poor defence but if allowed opens the flood gates along the lines I mentioned earlier this evening.

When you sign up to the series you agree to abide by the rules, if your not happy with the rules you can submit a proposal for change to the RC, I have lost count of the amount I have submitted over the years.

If nothing had been mentioned then nobody would be any the wiser and the chance of getting protested on a modified crank very slim, especially as it looks like there may be a few more out there.

As with Senna3 he had his engine rebuilt at Baines Racing last year as it never seemed to go as well after his crash at Mallory in 2007 and dispite having new pistons and rings he did not have the crankshaft balanced as that would have required modifying it to how it left the factory which would have broken the rules. Now if Balancing is going to be allowed then I feel he and others in the same boat as him are going to loose out for their honesty.

A couple of years back Minitwins rules required the running of a standard airbox and even though a DD bike with a open airbox was never going to get near the 72bhp limit, my request to the Minitwin organisers (Tim Jones and Mike Edwards) to be able to run a open airbox was turned down, even though it gave me no advantage over a 72bhp SV650. So I abided by the rules and rode with a standard airbox, at least nobody could protest me for cheating, which is what they told meit would be viewed as.

Not the one word answer you were asking for, maybe an RC member will answer that one for you

I think you gave a 6 word answer - if A NO, if B YES

does seem simple to me :puzzled:

[Senna3]

i recon miss riot weighs about 7 stone so she should have to wear a five stone lead belt to equal my weight as for dom he will have to cut one of his legs off:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[JasonBoswell]

As with Senna3 he had his engine rebuilt at Baines Racing last year as it never seemed to go as well after his crash at Mallory in 2007 and dispite having new pistons and rings he did not have the crankshaft balanced as that would have required modifying it to how it left the factory which would have broken the rules. Now if Balancing is going to be allowed then I feel he and others in the same boat as him are going to loose out for their honesty.

There's no denying that bike goes like f*** since the work was done though. So presumably there's a lot of performance to be gained from having the engine apart and blue-printing, its not just about reliability.

[skidlids]

There's no denying that bike goes like f*** since the work was done though. So presumably there's a lot of performance to be gained from having the engine apart and blue-printing, its not just about reliability.

Who said it has been Blue printed, thats new to me

[Senna3]

There's no denying that bike goes like f*** since the work was done though. So presumably there's a lot of performance to be gained from having the engine apart and blue-printing, its not just about reliability.

so in that case i must be cheating as well because my bikes farster than yours :eek: still not as much as cleggy and andy challis and dallas and miss riot and tp because i couldent beat them and as for matt he must of had a 800 engine for sure

[bradders]

i must be cheating as well


definitely!! ;)

[Senna3]

dam ive been found out best i remove the 900engine:devil: second thouthts it standard as it came from the factory so it must be ok:lol::lol::lol:

[rossco572]

glad to see the lighter element returning to his thread. was beginning to think i needed body armour in my race kit !:)

[Jolley]

Just an aside though, if the RC do clarify the issue, and just suppose it was ruled against, how the hell would you check it?

I am not sure it needs checking. If there is to be a random dyno testing session at one of the rounds we will see if anyone has too much go in their motor. At that point it can be decided what to do with that bike.

Also, if Nog starts winning every round by half a lap we might look into it.......

In all seriousness though, I doubt we should be too bothered by anyone else's bike. I have checked mine to see it is as close to the 53bhp limit as possible for the following reason: I do not have the skill to take apart the engine, so this was the easiest way of me checking to see there was no outragous power. If the bike had been obviously over the 53bhp I would have had someone look at it to check there was nothing illegal (Not easy to know on a bike raced by 2 different owners). I suggest scrutineering works the same.... all bikes, or any suspected of too much power, are tested on a dyno at one of the rounds.

As for the money aspect, I do not see the argument. If you have a bike as close to the power and weight limits as possible, realistically no other rider can have a faster bike than you regardless of the money spent. As I have said before (and others on here have said), the top finishers could finish top on 70% of the bikes on the grid.

[Rattler]

I am not sure it needs checking. If there is to be a random dyno testing session at one of the rounds we will see if anyone has too much go in their motor. At that point it can be decided what to do with that bike.

Also, if Nog starts winning every round by half a lap we might look into it.......

In all seriousness though, I doubt we should be too bothered by anyone else's bike. I have checked mine to see it is as close to the 53bhp limit as possible for the following reason: I do not have the skill to take apart the engine, so this was the easiest way of me checking to see there was no outragous power. If the bike had been obviously over the 53bhp I would have had someone look at it to check there was nothing illegal (Not easy to know on a bike raced by 2 different owners). I suggest scrutineering works the same.... all bikes, or any suspected of too much power, are tested on a dyno at one of the rounds.

As for the money aspect, I do not see the argument. If you have a bike as close to the power and weight limits as possible, realistically no other rider can have a faster bike than you regardless of the money spent. As I have said before (and others on here have said), the top finishers could finish top on 70% of the bikes on the grid.

Yeh - kind of ;) - efficiencies in engines and balancing / weight reduction etc, can mean that although these engines do not make any more power (that could be measured on a dyno), they can make this power more easily and quicker. So as a result the bikes they are fitted with these engines can be faster (they get up to speed quicker) than those bikes that are not so well "balanced" or don't use lighter-weight engine components.

But as many have said, the differences that fitting a lighter/balanced crank and/or a lightened/balanced flywheel (both of which are illegal) won't necessarily make any difference in the real DD world (as the differences are relatively slight) and these won't show up on a dyno.

If a 583 could be made (within the rules) to produce more than 53bhp (and still be legal), then the challenge would be how to optimise that bike to make more power lower in its rev range (effectively better torque) and still fall below the 53bhp thresh-hold at the top end. you're then in the land of exhaust mods (2-1,2-2 etc) and other areas.

But - Its the Indian, not the arrow. ;)
Tim

[ChrisBushell]

i recon miss riot weighs about 7 stone so she should have to wear a five stone lead belt to equal my weight as for dom he will have to cut one of his legs off:lol::lol::lol::lol:


Cruel!!!!

[Fastfasulli]

Sorry to be boring and serious but:
I would just like to say congratulations to Skidlids for opening this subject for debate. If Kev wasn't asking the questions in an open forum what would be left but gossip and rumour. It's good that it's being done before the season starts too.

That is all...

[ChrisBushell]

Yeh - kind of ;) - efficiencies in engines and balancing / weight reduction etc, can mean that although these engines do not make any more power (that could be measured on a dyno), they can make this power more easily and quicker. So as a result the bikes they are fitted with these engines can be faster (they get up to speed quicker) than those bikes that are not so well "balanced" or don't use lighter-weight engine components.

But as many have said, the differences that fitting a lighter/balanced crank and/or a lightened/balanced flywheel (both of which are illegal) won't necessarily make any difference in the real DD world (as the differences are relatively slight) and these won't show up on a dyno.

If a 583 could be made (within the rules) to produce more than 53bhp (and still be legal), then the challenge would be how to optimise that bike to make more power lower in its rev range (effectively better torque) and still fall below the 53bhp thresh-hold at the top end. you're then in the land of exhaust mods (2-1,2-2 etc) and other areas.

But - Its the Indian, not the arrow. ;)
Tim


Very well put mate!

In part here we are looking at an area that at present no modification is allowed to the crankshaft, its flywheels and the seperate flywheel.

We do already know that fitting a light weight flywheel, makes the bikes spin up faster out of the corners and confers an advantage, hence the reason that they are not allowed.

If any form of machining to the crankshaft was to be allowed, so as to allow the entrant to "balance" the reciprocating mass, then that opens the way for people to remove "excess" weight from the crankshaft "during" the balancing process. I would be interested in hearing suggestions as to how the rules could be written to ensure that this option was controlled effectively.

Now about 20 years ago when I last had my Jaguar engine apart, I had the whole crankshaft assembly (from front damper through to the clutch pressure plate) dynamically balanced. The engine was subsequently significantly smoother and appeared to spin up easier. This is on a 6 cylinder 3.5 litre long stroke engine! Every component came back with little drill marks all over them where metal has been removed, not just in the original places that the factory had machined them.

Was it money well spent? Well I cant remember how much it cost me, but I beleive that it was worth it. Would have it been legal in Desmo Due - no way under the current rules.

Big-end regrinds

I have just tried a pair of std big-end shells out of my 500 paralyzed twin and the 0.25 regrind ones on the scales. Now the scales aren't that accurate, but it would appear that the 0.25 ones are slightly heavier. This is pobably because the backing steel needs to be 0.25 thicker.

Funny thing is that these are the same shells as used in a 620, even though the engine was made in 1977!!!

It would appear that the thicker shells compensate for the metal that we have had to remove from the crankshaft during the grinding process.

I have checked that bikes and my other factory manuals, including the car ones and not one mentions the need to rebalance the crank after grinding it.

Blue printing

I think I worked out that I am now on something like my 42nd Ducati single rebuild, so could assume that in this area I am reasonably knowledgeable. Taking Nelly's earlier point about the above, I am very carefull to assemble the engines to excatly how the factory specified the clearances, shimming and everything else. Doing that has resulted in a line of very strong and reliable engines, without the need to resort to trying to do things "better".

Acording to my notes, we have had two cranks sent off for balancing, after fitting of a new big-end and rod assembly and neither were found to require balancing.



This answer is a personal view and not being expressed with a Race Committee hat on - please bear that in mind!

A number of suggestions have been put forward fior ammendments to the ules in these areas, which we will do our best to work through as quickly as possible.

[MARTIN H]

i recon miss riot weighs about 7 stone so she should have to wear a five stone lead belt to equal my weight as for dom he will have to cut one of his legs off:lol::lol::lol::lol:

How do you think I feel? I weighed in at about 22 stone in my leathers! :o

[MARTIN H]

Now about 20 years ago when I last had my Jaguar engine apart, I had the whole crankshaft assembly (from front damper through to the clutch pressure plate) dynamically balanced. The engine was subsequently significantly smoother and appeared to spin up easier. This is on a 6 cylinder 3.5 litre long stroke engine!

Chris, can you recommend anywhere to supply/remake an XK crank damper? Got a 3.8 engine here that I'm building (very slowly) and 3 dampers (all in poor condition) off various engines.

[skidlids]

How do you think I feel? I weighed in at about 22 stone in my leathers! :o
I should think you feel Very Heavy :)
I'm certainly not going to try and lift you off the ground
And thankfully when you were on the Multi you never toppled over onto me I would have been squashed :lol:

[bradders]

only 22st..... :rolleyes:

[MARTIN H]

only 22st..... :rolleyes:

Yup I've been dieting :lol:

[bradders]

so have I - unfortunely the classic see-food one!!

[MARTIN H]

I think we should petition for a Class C in DD - for the fully grown gentleman.

[ChrisBushell]

I think we should petition for a Class C in DD - for the fully grown gentleman.

How about a combined rider and bike minimum weight limit of 250kgs?

[Fastfasulli]

How about ditching qualifying and replace it with a practice instead. Then chose the grid randomly.....that could be....fun... I think the MZ's do this in Bemsee

[chris.p]

How about ditching qualifying and replace it with a practice instead. Then chose the grid randomly.....that could be....fun... I think the MZ's do this in Bemsee



At Darley Moor you used to pick a number out of a bag whilst in the assembly area, a right pot luck.


Chris:burn:

[nogaromill998]

A, was the crank asembley was balanced by matching components

B, Was the crank machined in anyway to acheive balance in which case it will have been modified from how it was supplied from the Ducati Factory

If its answer A then no rules have been broken
If its answer B then under the rules that have been in place for 5 years a rule has been broken, and breaking rules for a race series as far as I know is cheating, even if no advantage is gained.

Some rules are there to reduce costs, some for safety and some to keep things simple.

I don't think you are being dishonest or trying to gain an advantage as you certainly weren't trying to hide the fact that you have had some balancing work done.
But just because you interpret the rule your way doesn't mean others do and could leave you open to protest.

To argue maching is not modifying is a poor defence but if allowed opens the flood gates along the lines I mentioned earlier this evening.

When you sign up to the series you agree to abide by the rules, if your not happy with the rules you can submit a proposal for change to the RC, I have lost count of the amount I have submitted over the years.

If nothing had been mentioned then nobody would be any the wiser and the chance of getting protested on a modified crank very slim, especially as it looks like there may be a few more out there.

As with Senna3 he had his engine rebuilt at Baines Racing last year as it never seemed to go as well after his crash at Mallory in 2007 and dispite having new pistons and rings he did not have the crankshaft balanced as that would have required modifying it to how it left the factory which would have broken the rules. Now if Balancing is going to be allowed then I feel he and others in the same boat as him are going to loose out for their honesty.

A couple of years back Minitwins rules required the running of a standard airbox and even though a DD bike with a open airbox was never going to get near the 72bhp limit, my request to the Minitwin organisers (Tim Jones and Mike Edwards) to be able to run a open airbox was turned down, even though it gave me no advantage over a 72bhp SV650. So I abided by the rules and rode with a standard airbox, at least nobody could protest me for cheating, which is what they told meit would be viewed as.

Not the one word answer you were asking for, maybe an RC member will answer that one for you


The answer is in one of my previous posts Kev. The crank was NOT pulled apart or machined in any way and the balancing was a matter of selecting the best matched components, nothing more. Balancing by machining is as likely to ADD weight as reduce it and neither have I fitted a lighter flywheel ! As for the regrinding matter, the thickness of the replacement shells is IRRELEVANT if we take your original argument....the crank will have been reground, metal will have been removed and therefore it would be ruled illegal.

[bradders]

How about a combined rider and bike minimum weight limit of 250kgs?

now we're talking, means I can take the bike down to 110kg!! :D

[Senna3]

How do you think I feel? I weighed in at about 22 stone in my leathers! :o

i think you may have to cut off both legs and possibly an arm:lol::lol::lol:

[Senna3]

now we're talking, means I can take the bike down to 110kg!! :D

dont know wot your going to do paul:eek: some ones allready cut your legs off well from the knees down :lol::lol:

[Matt-T28]

i think you may have to cut off both legs and possibly an arm:lol::lol::lol:


I hope he sits on you now for that remark lol :D

[Senna3]

I hope he sits on you now for that remark lol :D

was that wot happend to you :eek::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[skidlids]

The answer is in one of my previous posts Kev. The crank was NOT pulled apart or machined in any way and the balancing was a matter of selecting the best matched components, nothing more.

In that case Dave there is no issue
As its the crankshaft assembley that has been balanced and not the crankshaft itself,

As your post on Ducatisti contained the following phrase
Engine is currently in a million bits and the crank is ready for collection, after balancing, tomorrow

It looks like the crank had been balanced by itself which would mean some sort of modification to either add or remove weight.

This I am told was reported to the RC by I know not whom and the RC asked me among others for my take on it. I also heard several grumblings in the paddock last year about bikes running balanced cranks or Blue Printed engines.

My view of Blue printing is on page 4 of this thread
As for blue printing there is the large factory way or the small team way.

Large factory, take 1000 of each component and find a pair that best meets the design spec and use them, no modification required

Small team way, take the pair of items that you have in your engine and modify one so that it matches the other.

Now if you go some where in between and start with several items and get them matched up as best as possible without modification then thats fine by DD rules but if modifications are carried out then rules are being broken.

Although I already had some thoughts on the matter I needed a bit more information so as well as starting the thread I also emailed some Ducati specialists to get their views

Hence my original question in the title of the post, as I have also said it was the catalyst for the thread but that does not mean it was the target, I have targeted/questioned many rules to do with DD to try and ensure they add value to the series.

As far as regrinding goes, if it happens to me and it turns out that regrinding the crankshaft is the most viable option, I would then email the RC to seek permission to have it done.

If they give their permission to get it done I would expect it to be incorporated into an updated appendix and sent to all entrants, with a view to it being adopted into the rules the following season.

[Scooter916]

Well I have watched this thread evolve and thus far restrained from commenting But I have to agree with Kev's Comments

Bradders may actually have to cut off both legs and an arm ;) ;) ;)



If anyone is needing a crank re-grind Speak to me, I have a bottom end that I would loan them untill they get sorted with one or untill the point that I need it.
Hows that for a bit of DD spirit.

[Rattler]

http://hub.tv-ark.org.uk/images/soaps/soap_images/british/coronation_street1b.jpg
Blimey - is that the end of the show, or just on a commercial break :eek:

[nogaromill998]

"It looks like the crank had been balanced by itself which would mean some sort of modification to either add or remove weight."

The phrase ' engine in a million bits ' merely indicates the engine is apart Kev....and doesnt even hint at the crank being balanced by itself, so thats a pretty big assumption imho, and would have been far better served by asking a question, rather than opening debate away from the original post without even so much as asking me direct. I only heard about it cos someone gave me the heads up....

[Senna3]

[quote=Rattler]http://hub.tv-ark.org.uk/images/soaps/soap_images/british/coronation_street1b.jpg
Blimey - is that the end of the show, or just on a commercial break :eek:[

tim is that right i hear your putting a 620 body kit on that trump and planning on using in class A :eek: :devil::devil::devil:

[Scooter916]

Kev, Sorry to detract from this riviting thread, But I have just noticed your mood.
Is there somthing your not telling us, A Bit of man love with nelly Going on????
"Mood: i need more corner speed" Sounds a little suspect to me :)

[Rattler]

[quote=Rattler]http://hub.tv-ark.org.uk/images/soaps/soap_images/british/coronation_street1b.jpg
Blimey - is that the end of the show, or just on a commercial break :eek:[

tim is that right i hear your putting a 620 body kit on that trump and planning on using in class A :eek: :devil::devil::devil:

Shhhhhh - do you think they'd notice? The crank has been balanced too!!! :eek:

[Senna3]

[quote=Rattler][quote=Senna3]

Shhhhhh - do you think they'd notice? The crank has been balanced too!!! :eek:


thats all right i heard somebodys got a eighthundred motor :eek: :devil::devil::lol:

[Senna3]

[quote=Scooter916]Kev, Sorry to detract from this riviting thread, But I have just noticed your mood.
Is there somthing your not telling us, A Bit of man love with nelly Going on????
"Mood: i need more corner speed" Sounds a little suspect to me :)

shhh he said hed balance my crankshaft if i did that:D

ive changed it for you

[harriebird]

shhh he said hed balance my crankshaft if i did that:D

i thought it was only girls who fell for all that sort of talk :lol: get the goods, THEN do the deed if you ask me! :D

[Chaz]

Dose back tracking make it legal? dig a big hole then fill it in;)

[bradders]

"The phrase ' engine in a million bits ' merely indicates the engine is apart Kev....and doesnt even hint at the crank being balanced by itself, so thats a pretty big assumption imho, and would have been far better served by asking a question, rather than opening debate away from the original post without even so much as asking me direct. I only heard about it cos someone gave me the heads up....

seems a bit harsh, Skids never mentioned anyone specifically, more opended a debate which clearly needed to be had, looking at the number and type of posts.

also, having read your other thread (I didnt until this little lot!) I would also have thought you have stripped and balanced everything

TBH as someone non technical, I have found this thread really informative; I know have a bit of an undrstand as to what you lot are always talking about!! :lol:

[Imola Duke]

Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

[Senna3]

[quote=harriebird]i thought it was only girls who fell for all that sort of talk :lol: get the goods, THEN do the deed if you ask me! :D

sounds like a need a chat with matt:eek::lol::lol:

[Senna3]

[quote=Imola Duke]Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

A go in class A:D

B dont tell no one :devil:

because we cant take another debate its the weekend for god sake:lol::lol:

[Imola Duke]

[quote=Imola Duke]Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

A go in class A:D

B dont tell no one :devil:

because we cant take another debate its the weekend god sake:lol::lol:

Ok Kev.. I'll stick some chicken wire down the silencer baffles :cool: that should slow it down a bit ;)

[Douglas]

Very well put mate!

If any form of machining to the crankshaft was to be allowed, so as to allow the entrant to "balance" the reciprocating mass, then that opens the way for people to remove "excess" weight from the crankshaft "during" the balancing process. I would be interested in hearing suggestions as to how the rules could be written to ensure that this option was controlled effectively.


Chris

I have seen many sets of (car) racing regs during my career as a Club racer using standard production engines. This included writing some whilst being involved in running a championship for single seater cars. We have also had to deal with these types of issues.

Our definition of standard parts is those supplied by the original manufacturer for that type and model etc, with the stipulation that no material should be removed from or added to it. Evidence of machining or polishing would make the item illegal.

If "balancing" is to be allowed, then the regs state where the material can be removed from the parts. Most manufacturers provide bosses or other areas to be machined to allow balancing of rotating parts.

Although it is often argued that this means stripping is needed to police the regulations, in practice this isn't neccessarily the case. This type of regulation makes it quite clear what is allowed, so all competitors know where the line is, and stick to it. It is ambiguity that encourages people to devise rationales for border line mods, convincing themselves they are legal. Wholesale stripping isnt appropriate at our level, so cars are usually only subject to such a detailed check if other evidence indicated there may be a problem. The paddock is usually pretty good at smelling rats!

This approach may or may not be appropriate for DD, but I thought you might find it interesting.

PS I was riding with you on New Years Day on my wifes 750ss ie!

[paynep]

Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

Take the 750 heads off?

[paynep]

http://hub.tv-ark.org.uk/images/soaps/soap_images/british/coronation_street1b.jpg
Blimey - is that the end of the show, or just on a commercial break :eek:

Is that your Trumpet delivering the milk?

[AK]

Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

you used a fuchs dyno then?

[faith-healer]

Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?


Get the dyno calibration checked:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[skidlids]

"It looks like the crank had been balanced by itself which would mean some sort of modification to either add or remove weight."

The phrase ' engine in a million bits ' merely indicates the engine is apart Kev....and doesnt even hint at the crank being balanced by itself, so thats a pretty big assumption imho, and would have been far better served by asking a question, rather than opening debate away from the original post without even so much as asking me direct. I only heard about it cos someone gave me the heads up....

In the thread you started on Ducatisti, in the very first Post you have written after the bit about the engine being in a million bits
"and the crank is ready for collection, after balancing, tomorrow"

http://www.ducatisti.co.uk/forum/desmodue/26269-nog-s-2009-bike-prep.html

No mention of crankshaft assembly,or rods pistons etc, so whoever it was that brung it to the attention of the RC assumed it was the crank being modified, which for most people in DD would have to be the way they would do it as many only have the two con rods and two pistons that came with the engine.

Another DD entrant was wanting to get his crankshaft balanced so that he could match it to the new pistons he was getting, so on the 13th of Jan the day before I started this thread he emailed the RC to see if it was legal, possibly after reading your thread on Ducatisti (but that's only an assumption on my part) in the RCs reply he was told that if metal was removed from the crankshaft then it would be illegal and could be sucessfully protested.

From that point I wanted to know how big a issue this was for people and was it a gray area and if the rule in place is sufficient or in need of rewording.

Or maybe we need to add a rule regarding balancing of the crankshaft assembly and how it can be done without modifying the crankshaft itself

[TP]

Fcuk me, what a thread! I need another Vodka!

[ChrisBushell]

Chris

I have seen many sets of (car) racing regs during my career as a Club racer using standard production engines. This included writing some whilst being involved in running a championship for single seater cars. We have also had to deal with these types of issues.

Our definition of standard parts is those supplied by the original manufacturer for that type and model etc, with the stipulation that no material should be removed from or added to it. Evidence of machining or polishing would make the item illegal.

If "balancing" is to be allowed, then the regs state where the material can be removed from the parts. Most manufacturers provide bosses or other areas to be machined to allow balancing of rotating parts.

Although it is often argued that this means stripping is needed to police the regulations, in practice this isn't neccessarily the case. This type of regulation makes it quite clear what is allowed, so all competitors know where the line is, and stick to it. It is ambiguity that encourages people to devise rationales for border line mods, convincing themselves they are legal. Wholesale stripping isnt appropriate at our level, so cars are usually only subject to such a detailed check if other evidence indicated there may be a problem. The paddock is usually pretty good at smelling rats!

This approach may or may not be appropriate for DD, but I thought you might find it interesting.

PS I was riding with you on New Years Day on my wifes 750ss ie!

Douglas,

A very sucinct and to the point post which speaks volumes for common sense, thank you.

The point about individuals "beleiving" that they can interpret the rules in a manner that supports their train of thought, is very pertinent.

Ultimately in any race series (cars, bikes or whatever) there is a need for a set of rules to which everyone can compete. There has to be an element of trust within the competitors that people will abide by them so that the playing field can be as level as possible.

Within DD there is a clear statement within the rules that:

EVERYTHING THAT IS NOT AUTHORISED AND PRESCRIBED IN THIS RULE BOOK IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN

Now I would say that this is a fairly unambiguous statement. We have encouraged, and most people seem happy with, the process that if any rider is not certain about an interpretation, then they should ask the Race Committee before proceeding and therefore get a ruling. This has in fact led to a number of instances where the rules have been amended and clarified to help all competitors.

In part the rules were originally written to try and prevent the ability for people to spend a lot of money on their engines and try and rien in costs.

One little joker sent me the following yesterday:

If balancing a crank is classed as not modifying it, will doing this little lot be OK.

I could do with a speedy decision as I am running out of time to get all this done especially as I'm also considering the 6-speed conversion with a dry clutch.

One of my con rods is slightly heavier than the other and both are heavier than the minimum weight quoted by the factory, I know what I would like to do is balance them so that the meet the factory minimum weight. After all the engine will be smoother and less likely to shake apart

Same as above goes for the new pistons

Also my rear cylinder head has a lower flow rate than the front cylinder head and I know someone elses flows more than that, so I think I'll get someone to alter them so they both match the higher flow rate of somebody elses engine, so long as I don't exceed the class bhp limit I should be OK

Just been comparing camshafts and found mine have a fraction less lift than my mates and are even different to each other, I'll have to get them ground to the factory tolerance that will give the best performance. I'm not modifying them as thats probably how some left the factory.

After checking the combustion chambers one is marginally smaller than the other so what I will do is match the other one to it, a quick skim will sufice after all its not really removing material as thats how it should have left the factory it just good practice to balance them out.

Just found out XXXXXXXXXX's flywheel weighs a tad less than mine but is still within factory tolerance, I'll have to adjust mine to suit.

Waiting in anticipation.


Luickily I paged down on the e-mail and read the "Gotcha" comment before I started a reply, nice wind up and yes I nearly fell for it!!!!!

There is a question in front of the RC now about clarifying section 1.6.21, to make it absolutely clear. Though I notice that "no modifications allowed" seems to already be in the rules for all of the above intended work.

Lord Mayors show

Well my poor little 98 struggled manfully to keep up with you guys after the finish and on the way back to Bob's. That it has about 4.5bhp (claimed) and had two of us on it might have had something to do with it. I must admit I had a great day out and cant wait for the 2010 event.

The photos of some of the head gear really made me laugh (sorry Graham). One thing I think we will do at the next one is try and ride up from Wimbledon rather than use the trailer as parking is a real problem in Wandsworth!

[MLC Racing]

[quote=Imola Duke]Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

A go in class A:D

B dont tell no one :devil:

because we cant take another debate its the weekend for god sake:lol::lol:

That is the same as my 620 Class A DD bike....

Seems to me there are way more unbalanced cranks sitting on the seats!!

[Imola Duke]

Take the 750 heads off?

:mad: You Grass!! :lol: :lol:




I'll be lucky to get 50bhp to be honest, I'm hoping my bike gets picked
random to be tested on a dyno, at least i get to see if my fueling is to pot:)

saves me £50 too:)

[phillc]

To hell with it all, I'm having the crank balanced on my Supersport!

[Rattler]

:mad: You Grass!! :lol: :lol:




I'll be lucky to get 50bhp to be honest, I'm hoping my bike gets picked
random to be tested on a dyno, at least i get to see if my fueling is to pot:)

saves me £50 too:)

Anyone with less than 50bhp will be lucky to be "randomly" selected for a dyno run I reckon. Unless they are some kind of racing god.;) - you'd need to be troubling the scorers to get some random attention - :)

There are a lot of very well sorted and high budget 583s out there, some probably able to make 53bhp with ease.

Get those bikes and yourselves on a diet, that's the key. I reckon with a lighter bike and light rider, you can obviously get off the line much more quickly than heavier bike/rider combinations and those 3 or 4 places you can make up into turn 1 would be really tough to make up anywhere else.

Tim

[couchcommando]

Can anyone tell me what modifications this bottom end has ?

http://www.btinternet.com/~tonyhathaway/T/Images/ducbottomend.JPG

[vespa]

I just looke at my crankshaft today and the same type of holes are present: are from factory balancing until proven otherwise (impossible to prove).

[couchcommando]

I just looke at my crankshaft today and the same type of holes are present: are from factory balancing until proven otherwise (impossible to prove).

Yup and say you were to balance the crank to a finer tolerance than the factory and drill those holes a little deeper, how could this be proven, what if the factory balanced your crank better than someone elses ?

[gordonparker]

It's all up to the machinest, had my tyres balanced the other week, didn't seem right above *0 mph, took the car back, 20gms out at the front and 60gms at the back.
Same place, same machine different operator !!!!

Pot luck sometimes

[vespa]

Yup and say you were to balance the crank to a finer tolerance than the factory and drill those holes a little deeper, how could this be proven, what if the factory balanced your crank better than someone elses ?
No hope...just doom and chance...:devil: