New regs for 2010

[Ghost]

We are approaching the last races at Cadwell for 2009. I believe within the DD community that races, not the ones that don't have their backside in the saddle going through paddock hill. ;)

We need to start brainstorming tyres and allowances/acceptances throughout the machine.

These bikes are knocking on in years and parts are drying up which makes parts that are available costly and then bidding against racer. There can only be one winner.

So at this early juncture I feel the technically minded amongst us and the not so who might have a thought and not know how to phrase it.

We ought to add to this thread the way forward, ZR tyres etc more choice of vendors. We all know its not Pirelli making us use HR. But there are a host of other issues so lets collate them and get them in the mixing pot early, instead of 2 weeks before next season race start.

[chris.p]

We are approaching the last races at Cadwell for 2009. I believe within the DD community that races, not the ones that don't have their backside in the saddle going through paddock hill. ;)

We need to start brainstorming tyres and allowances/acceptances throughout the machine.

These bikes are knocking on in years and parts are drying up which makes parts that are available costly and then bidding against racer. There can only be one winner.

So at this early juncture I feel the technically minded amongst us and the not so who might have a thought and not know how to phrase it.

We ought to add to this thread the way forward, ZR tyres etc more choice of vendors. We all know its not Pirelli making us use HR. But there are a host of other issues so lets collate them and get them in the mixing pot early, instead of 2 weeks before next season race start.


Good idea on the technical side, think Skids may be covering off most of that side, as for the tyres, that is a bit of a sticky problem(no pun intended)
the biggest problem there is having a tyre that is both good in the dry and be able to be used in the wet, but this being the biggest problem, we have to have a letter of suitability from the manufacturer.
I am not sure what the state of play on tyres for next season is, drop a pm to Gordon Parkeras he id the DD MT member.

One thing to remember when voicing ideas for DD is that the "B" is entry level/cheap racing.


Chris:burn:

[Ghost]

Good idea on the technical side, think Skids may be covering off most of that side, as for the tyres, that is a bit of a sticky problem(no pun intended)
the biggest problem there is having a tyre that is both good in the dry and be able to be used in the wet, but this being the biggest problem, we have to have a letter of suitability from the manufacturer.
I am not sure what the state of play on tyres for next season is, drop a pm to Gordon Parkeras he id the DD MT member.

One thing to remember when voicing ideas for DD is that the "B" is entry level/cheap racing.


Chris:burn:


We keep hearing of this letter, has anyone actually seen it?
Scan it and show it to the members.

[Murray Mint]

We keep hearing of this letter, has anyone actually seen it?
Scan it and show it to the members.

You know I never thought of that and a very good idea.

[skidlids]

Come October the 5th the day after the last race of the season start sending in your ideas there is a 4 week window to send ideas /proposals/etc to desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com, these will automatically go to the members of the RC including the Riders reps. These ideas will then be looked at and worthwhile ones followed up on.

Last year I sent in loads of suggestions with my reasons and information to suoport them, many of which were taken up.

One of my views is if you can't Police it the rule can prove to be worthless
Issues on the table for next years rule book should include among them

Tyres
Class B pistons
Class B ignition modules
Rider eligability for each class
Reinstating the rule allowing the use of Carburetors on Class A bikes

If you think a rule is unfair/incorrect please let us know and it can be looked at

2.1.9 Changes to these Rules

It is the intention that the rules should be fixed no later than the 1st of March each year.

All riders are to be given the opportunity to input to the following seasons rules, after the finish of the last race of the year and the 5th of November of that year.

[Andy C]

Rules should be sorted out by Christmas at the latest. Sending out the regs by March is not the way to go about things. Why is it all other race series know excatly the rules for the following season, well in advance of the season actually starting.
Rant over, I'll get my coat.

QUOTE=skidlids]Come October the 5th the day after the last race of the season start sending in your ideas there is a 4 week window to send ideas /proposals/etc to desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com, these will automatically go to the members of the RC including the Riders reps. These ideas will then be looked at and worthwhile ones followed up on.

Last year I sent in loads of suggestions with my reasons and information to suoport them, many of which were taken up.

One of my views is if you can't Police it the rule can prove to be worthless
Issues on the table for next years rule book should include among them

Tyres
Class B pistons
Class B ignition modules
Rider eligability for each class
Reinstating the rule allowing the use of Carburetors on Class A bikes

If you think a rule is unfair/incorrect please let us know and it can be looked at

2.1.9 Changes to these Rules

It is the intention that the rules should be fixed no later than the 1st of March each year.

All riders are to be given the opportunity to input to the following seasons rules, after the finish of the last race of the year and the 5th of November of that year.[/QUOTE]

[injected]

One thing to remember when voicing ideas for DD is that the "B" is entry level/cheap racing.


Hear, hear. One vote here for keeping Class B changes to an absolute minimum in the interests of existing riders not wanting to spend ££ over the winter to remain competitive. Maybe, to help with purchase and investment decisions, the rules could include a future year when it is envisgaed that Class B in its present form will cease to exist and be replaced by a new Class using 620's or whatever. Unless several years notice are given, it will never be the right time to introduce significant change.

Oh, and I like the current tyres...

[ChrisBushell]

Hear, hear. One vote here for keeping Class B changes to an absolute minimum in the interests of existing riders not wanting to spend ££ over the winter to remain competitive. Maybe, to help with purchase and investment decisions, the rules could include a future year when it is envisgaed that Class B in its present form will cease to exist and be replaced by a new Class using 620's or whatever. Unless several years notice are given, it will never be the right time to introduce significant change.

Oh, and I like the current tyres...


Well put sir!

Always open to suggestions, but I would think that there is not a lot that needs doing to the Current Class B rules for 2010.

The question of how long these bikes can be kept on track is an interesting one. From memory I think we have had only 1 engine blow up since the start of the series - they are in that low level of tune that they are not stressed.

Perhaps it may be an idea to say that the existing 583 bikes will be raced for 2010/2011 and then retired - but all concerned would have to realise that at the end of 2011 the bikes would probably be worthless.

If in 2011/2012 there was a move to make Class A the new novice class - then in theory we would need to look at Class C. This has been mooted before and the obvious choice might be to introduce the 696 Monster as the class machine. With them having been on the market for a couple of years there should be a supply of 2nd hand machines at reasonable cost and people can have time to buy and prep them.

I rode one at Cadwell on the trackday and it was a super machine and in fact more fun than the 1100S.

Anyway suggestions greatfully received and will be reviewed after the last race.

[Chaz]

Well put sir!

Always open to suggestions, but I would think that there is not a lot that needs doing to the Current Class B rules for 2010.

The question of how long these bikes can be kept on track is an interesting one. From memory I think we have had only 1 engine blow up since the start of the series - they are in that low level of tune that they are not stressed.

Perhaps it may be an idea to say that the existing 583 bikes will be raced for 2010/2011 and then retired - but all concerned would have to realise that at the end of 2011 the bikes would probably be worthless.

If in 2011/2012 there was a move to make Class A the new novice class - then in theory we would need to look at Class C. This has been mooted before and the obvious choice might be to introduce the 696 Monster as the class machine. With them having been on the market for a couple of years there should be a supply of 2nd hand machines at reasonable cost and people can have time to buy and prep them.

I rode one at Cadwell on the trackday and it was a super machine and in fact more fun than the 1100S.

Anyway suggestions greatfully received and will be reviewed after the last race.

I think you are a bit out of touch with engine blow ups Chris! Sam west has blown at least 2 & a couple of 620 have let go, having said that in general they are very reliable.

No reason why they shouldn't be still racing in fifty years time plenty of bikes that age still on track that are no were near as good as our little Desmos.

[skidlids]

Rules should be sorted out by Christmas at the latest. Sending out the regs by March is not the way to go about things. Why is it all other race series know excatly the rules for the following season, well in advance of the season actually starting.
Rant over, I'll get my coat.



Here are some of the dates of last years process

Version 1 First draft 22/10/08
version 2 second go 3/11/08
Version 3 Third attempt 25/11/08
Version 3.1 5/12/08
Version 3.2 19/12/08

The reason for the March date is that the DD rule book also incorporates rules from the ACU handbook and this is not issued until Feb/March time
Ideally next years versions will cut these out, such things as number and background sizes and Noise limits
The Phase "to comply with current ACU regulations" should surfice

[ChrisBushell]

Here are some of the dates of last years process

Version 1 First draft 22/10/08
version 2 second go 3/11/08
Version 3 Third attempt 25/11/08
Version 3.1 5/12/08
Version 3.2 19/12/08

The reason for the March date is that the DD rule book also incorporates rules from the ACU handbook and this is not issued until Feb/March time
Ideally next years versions will cut these out, such things as number and background sizes and Noise limits
The Phase "to comply with current ACU regulations" should surfice

Kev,

No reason why those dates aren't achievable.

Chris

[antonye]

From reading on the boards, it seems that the issue of CDI boxes (specifically the status of the Ducati Performance CDI units) needs to be addressed.

Given that the series aim is to keep it as cheap as possible and the cost of those things, I personally think they should be specifically excluded and locked to the standard part specified by oem part number.

If people are already running them then there looks like a buoyant market for them on ebay, so selling them on and replacing with standard units shouldn't be a problem?

My worry is that if this rule is left untouched or removed (ie, not made more specific) then it could open things up to custom CDI boxes and more expense - and that's the preserve of the Class A bikes!

Does that seem sensible?

I agree with Kev and Chris that the rule changes MUST be released as soon as possible. There's no reason why we can't have a review of the rules for this year and any problems with them that have arisen over this season and make some suggested amendments before the end of Oct as suggested. This gives time to discuss/vote/whatever before locking down early in the new year. Any changes that come out of the ACU rules are not going to be specific enough to warrant any kind of major headaches with either Class A or B.

[Andy C]

So the question is, does anything need changing? In my view no! Tyres seem to be a problem but i'm sure a phone call made by the right person would sort that. The RC could then issue a set of rules and all entrants must also abide with the ACU rules. Can't see a problem. If you don't like em, don't race in that series! But i forgot we've then gotta spend the next 5 months arguing about wether the tyres are any good, blah blah blah. Someone make the rules, lets build our bikes to them and go and race! And it could all be sorted by Christmas!

Here are some of the dates of last years process

Version 1 First draft 22/10/08
version 2 second go 3/11/08
Version 3 Third attempt 25/11/08
Version 3.1 5/12/08
Version 3.2 19/12/08

The reason for the March date is that the DD rule book also incorporates rules from the ACU handbook and this is not issued until Feb/March time
Ideally next years versions will cut these out, such things as number and background sizes and Noise limits
The Phase "to comply with current ACU regulations" should surfice

[MLC Racing]

I think you are a bit out of touch with engine blow ups Chris! Sam west has blown at least 2 & a couple of 620 have let go, having said that in general they are very reliable.

No reason why they shouldn't be still racing in fifty years time plenty of bikes that age still on track that are no were near as good as our little Desmos.

If the cause of the engine failures was due to over-revving then perhaps excluding non-original ignition boxes might help engine life.

It appears to me that at the moment Class B is more buoyant than Class A and that perhaps a phasing out of the current class A bikes for a new formula may be the way forward.

Given the success of standard Class B engines of whatever age, would a 900ss class with no mods other than cans and suspension give the more commited racers a class with the 'prestige' and performance they need without loosing the DD character. Keeping mods to a minimum would also keep the budget racing tag.
I'm not an expert but need 900ss's be more expensive to maintain than 600ss's.

I can see the 696 Monster as the alternative to this but initial outlay may still be prohibitive whilst 900ss's seem to be fairly cheap and easy to come by.

At one time on this forum a std. 748 class was muted as a possibility also!

[Ray]

At one time on this forum a std. 748 class was muted as a possibility also!

Purely from a spectators point of view that would look good IMHO.

Foggie lookie likies V Corser V Chili V Whitham V Reynolds V Mackenzie V Xaus V Casoli V Easton V Bostrom V Hodgeson V Toseland V Walker V Emmet V Hislop V Bayliss.....

aaahhh the nostalgia:)

Good many bikes about at a reasonable price.

Ray

[Ghost]

So the question is, does anything need changing? In my view no! Tyres seem to be a problem but i'm sure a phone call made by the right person would sort that. The RC could then issue a set of rules and all entrants must also abide with the ACU rules. Can't see a problem. If you don't like em, don't race in that series! But i forgot we've then gotta spend the next 5 months arguing about wether the tyres are any good, blah blah blah. Someone make the rules, lets build our bikes to them and go and race! And it could all be sorted by Christmas!

Andy the problem with the tyres is the availability, one company appears to have the monopoly on supply.

Lets go ZR and they are available from anywhere.

[skidlids]

So the question is, does anything need changing? In my view no!

Possibly a few things need changing

Entrants were saying they were unable to buy new Standard pistons. i'm not sure if this applies to all 583s or just the older pre 99 ones, ie bikes between 11 and 15 years old (they have got 5 years older over the years DD has been running)
Sam west and Dallas seem to get along fine with the newer 1999 to 2001 engines and spares may be more readily available for these 8 to 10 year old engines

So is the lack of availability of new piston for Class B bikes an issue that needs to be researched and alternatives looked at, If so this takes time

Igniter Box's such as AL-9000s ban there use or allow them and come up with wording that stops people using igniters that have programable advance curves.
Is the current rule a gray area of are people just bending the existing rule to suit them.

Rider eligability for Class B, I have heard several comments this year refering to how long some Class B riders have been campaigning in that Class and how they should move on.
Again is this a issue with the majority or a minority

[ChrisBushell]

Andy the problem with the tyres is the availability, one company appears to have the monopoly on supply.

Lets go ZR and they are available from anywhere.

The problem with the ZR rated tyre is that Pirelli have specifically stated that the bikes are not heavy enought and dont have enough power to get them up to required operating temperatures and as such wont endorse them for the series.

That is not the case for the HR rated tyre.

This is important because it is the racers necks on the line with this and saftey is important.

Supply of the HR rated Rosso shouldn't be a problem next year, as I currently understand it.

Before anyone starts on it I am not aware of any good reason to move away from Pirelli tyres!

[ChrisBushell]

I can see the 696 Monster as the alternative to this but initial outlay may still be prohibitive whilst 900ss's seem to be fairly cheap and easy to come by.

At one time on this forum a std. 748 class was muted as a possibility also!


In part I was suggesting the 696 from the point of view that it is a current bike, as the 620 was when we started 5 years ago!

The 900s haven't been in production from proabaly 6/7 years now and I dont know what parts supply is like. What we do have is a question of power in that my old one was good for 75bhp on the road, probably more on the track. I think that Pirelli would be looking at Diablo 3s and wets for that sort of power - big increase in cost, etc. Also what happens when it is ****ing down and someone trys to go out on Diablo 3s - that could get dangerous?

4 valve race series is a possibility, we looked at thing in 2006/7. Biggest thing is cost control, even if you used Superstock/proddy racing rules and how do you stop cheating to obtain power - all very difficult and would need a lot of protests to keep a lid on it.

If we were to look at a 4 valve series it would require 25 people to commit up front and I suppose we would look at the 749 rather than the 748 to keep it reasonably current.

[skidlids]

Supply of the HR rated Rosso shouldn't be a problem next year, as I currently understand it.


Although on the Pirelli.com website there is still no mention of H rated Rosso's
And I do find it strange tha Pirelli endorsed the use of Z rated tyres in 2005 and 2006 for the Desmo Due series if they now deem them unsuitable

[injected]

Andy the problem with the tyres is the availability, one company appears to have the monopoly on supply.

That may not be a bad thing if that 'monopoly' enables said company to afford to be present at every round of the championship! I think the convenience of not having to worry about buying and bringing tyres (and maybe changing equipment) easily outweighs the small additional cost for the tyres.

[andys 900ss]

Although on the Pirelli.com website there is still no mention of H rated Rosso's
And I do find it strange tha Pirelli endorsed the use of Z rated tyres in 2005 and 2006 for the Desmo Due series if they now deem them unsuitable

We tried all sorts of things over the winter & trackdays of 2005/06.

We found the ZR tyres took longer to warm up which is probably a benefit in DD, especially Class A as I now find the HR tyres go-off quickly on the 620's. Kyle found them pretty good too, looking at some of his old lap times. We find the HR's very good at their first meeting and not-so-good at their second meeting and I'm sure Tim will confirm this too. I remember buying Skids old tyres and winning races on the Class B bike though.




I've got Dialbo corsa's on my 900ssie and its an ideal step-up, faster, better suspension and more grip.....

900ssie looks good with the DD bodywork too ;)
http://img4012.photobox.co.uk/22469644f9139688f0db0e0933781e336cce912d9b479483a2 a4f6bc57d44abeeedd3c59.jpghttp://img4012.photobox.co.uk/17986978c6be4e0bd1a683335c0be9826261755de1b023313b 81fb478c2772a8ba88fd85.jpg

[skidlids]

That may not be a bad thing if that 'monopoly' enables said company to afford to be present at every round of the championship! I think the convenience of not having to worry about buying and bringing tyres (and maybe changing equipment) easily outweighs the small additional cost for the tyres.

I have always seen FWR as a cheap place for tyres and this is there current prices on H rated Diablos. http://www.fwr.co.uk/pirellit.htm#diablo
110/70H17 - £69.00
120/60H17 - £69.00
150/60H17 - £95.00
160/60H17 - £99.00

There is no 120/70H17 front listed so based on a 60 profile front a pair will cost £168 so not as cheap as Holbeach

a pair of ZR rtaed is £181
120/70 ZR17 - £82.00
160/60 ZR17 - £99.00

I think the deal we get along with the support in the paddock and several tyres as raffle prizes is a pretty decent deal

[nelly]

Just my tuppenth worth on the CDi boxes. As i understood them they had a modded curve in but not necessarily for more power. The ultimate advance needs to be kept in check to enable them to run on any fuel and Ducati know this.
I've certainly seen no advantage of note in using them. What they did/do give was/is a monetry saving in replacing the stock boxes should they fail. The DP items are cheaper, as a pair, than buying stock parts. This has a been a reason that i know of in two cases where they have been used.

There's more adjustment to be had on the pickups and you'd never police that, so for what it's worth, i think you'll be wasting time, effort and energy trying to police the DP igniter boxes.......

[Andy C]

Andy the problem with the tyres is the availability, one company appears to have the monopoly on supply.

Lets go ZR and they are available from anywhere.


In the scheme of things is this such a big problem!

[Andy C]

Look after said engine, parts are out there you've just gotta look. I don't need to tell you that racing isn't cheap, buy another engine or look after the one you've got! These little engines are prehistoric, which can be a good or a bad thing.



Possibly a few things need changing

Entrants were saying they were unable to buy new Standard pistons. i'm not sure if this applies to all 583s or just the older pre 99 ones, ie bikes between 11 and 15 years old (they have got 5 years older over the years DD has been running)
Sam west and Dallas seem to get along fine with the newer 1999 to 2001 engines and spares may be more readily available for these 8 to 10 year old engines

So is the lack of availability of new piston for Class B bikes an issue that needs to be researched and alternatives looked at, If so this takes time

Igniter Box's such as AL-9000s ban there use or allow them and come up with wording that stops people using igniters that have programable advance curves.
Is the current rule a gray area of are people just bending the existing rule to suit them.

Rider eligability for Class B, I have heard several comments this year refering to how long some Class B riders have been campaigning in that Class and how they should move on.
Again is this a issue with the majority or a minority

[MLC Racing]

There's more adjustment to be had on the pickups and you'd never police that, so for what it's worth, i think you'll be wasting time, effort and energy trying to police the DP igniter boxes.......


Should we concentrate on policing adjusted pick-ups then?????!!!!!

Is adjusting the pick-ups illegal??

Whats a Pick-up????

[antonye]

Whats a Pick-up????

Used by old men to get women? :D

[Jools]

Should we concentrate on policing adjusted pick-ups then?????!!!!!

Is adjusting the pick-ups illegal??

Whats a Pick-up????

It's like a van with an open loading area, or it could be one of those things they have on electrical guitars

[Fastfasulli]

Come October the 5th the day after the last race of the season start sending in your ideas there is a 4 week window to send ideas /proposals/etc to desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com, these will automatically go to the members of the RC including the Riders reps. These ideas will then be looked at and worthwhile ones followed up on.

Last year I sent in loads of suggestions with my reasons and information to suoport them, many of which were taken up.

One of my views is if you can't Police it the rule can prove to be worthless
Issues on the table for next years rule book should include among them

Tyres
Class B pistons
Class B ignition modules
Rider eligability for each class
Reinstating the rule allowing the use of Carburetors on Class A bikes

If you think a rule is unfair/incorrect please let us know and it can be looked at

2.1.9 Changes to these Rules

It is the intention that the rules should be fixed no later than the 1st of March each year.

All riders are to be given the opportunity to input to the following seasons rules, after the finish of the last race of the year and the 5th of November of that year.


I think ALL suggestions should be made public. I'm not necessarily saying that they should all be debated in public but that they should be published with details of whether they will be taken up and if not why not. I think this will save time for eveybody involved, e.g. the same suggestion sent by several members. There would be one central place, on the forum, where they can be referenced.

Can I put mine in now please:

1) A vote on how amount of rounds for DD. Why? Two main reasons: (a)The whole idea of DD is that it is meant to be 'budget' racing. For instance, within the tyre debate the issue of 'cost' is quoted constantly yet this year there were 9 rounds in the calendar. If the series were to reduce the amount of rounds, say to 6 or 7 rounds there would be a big cost saving which would negate the tyre costs. 6 quality rounds between, say, April at the earliest and September at the latest? operative phrase here: Quality not Quantity :-) (b) There would also be more chance of full grids as, maybe, more people would be inclined to do more rounds.

2) Once New Era have published available dates DD'ers should get a vote about where they go I'm sure this was done a couple of years back.

All signed up DD'ers should be given ample chance to vote. If they don't bother then they have no argument if there is something they don't like.

Anyway that's my tuppence worth....over and out :-)

[Ghost]

In the scheme of things is this such a big problem!


For me it is, I want to shop around for the best deal. I also like to fit and balance my own boots, another cost saving.

[chris.p]

We found the ZR tyres took longer to warm up which is probably a benefit in DD, especially Class A as I now find the HR tyres go-off quickly on the 620's. Kyle found them pretty good too, looking at some of his old lap times. We find the HR's very good at their first meeting and not-so-good at their second meeting and I'm sure Tim will confirm this too.

As Tim has not yet posted, I can confirm with Andy that after one race let alone one full meeting the HR Diablo's on a 620 have lost there initial grip and start to slide noticably.
Apart from that they are a good reliable and consistant tyre.


Chris:burn:

[nelly]

Should we concentrate on policing adjusted pick-ups then?????!!!!!

Is adjusting the pick-ups illegal??

Whats a Pick-up????

The two flywheel pickups for the ignition triggers are on a slotted bracket. you can get about 8 degrees of advance on there.......if you wanted ;)
In short, realistically, no you couldn't police it. You can move them 2 degrees tightening the things up.
It's a red herring that would take up valuable time/resource IMO.

[ChrisBushell]

The two flywheel pickups for the ignition triggers are on a slotted bracket. you can get about 8 degrees of advance on there.......if you wanted ;)
In short, realistically, no you couldn't police it. You can move them 2 degrees tightening the things up.
It's a red herring that would take up valuable time/resource IMO.
Neil,

Well put and it would require a protest and an engine strip to prove.

Chris

[AK]

Just my tuppenth worth on the CDi boxes. As i understood them they had a modded curve in but not necessarily for more power. The ultimate advance needs to be kept in check to enable them to run on any fuel and Ducati know this.
I've certainly seen no advantage of note in using them. What they did/do give was/is a monetry saving in replacing the stock boxes should they fail. The DP items are cheaper, as a pair, than buying stock parts. This has a been a reason that i know of in two cases where they have been used.

There's more adjustment to be had on the pickups and you'd never police that, so for what it's worth, i think you'll be wasting time, effort and energy trying to police the DP igniter boxes.......

i agree 100% with all above as nelly knows what he is talking about rather than some other people that frequent this forum

[Ghost]

Neil,

Well put and it would require a protest and an engine strip to prove.

Chris


A strobe lamp would do. :D

That isn't the issue, if adjustment is there thats why its slotted but that is only for the static/idle advance the igniters provide the advance over 3k, and as Nelly says there is no advantage with them.

Run too much advance with incorrect RON fuel and it will pink like hell and get you nowhere.

[MLC Racing]

i agree 100% with all above as nelly knows what he is talking about rather than some other people that frequent this forum


If we only ever spoke about what we knew about the world would be a very quiet place....

we'd never learn anything new...

or have anything to whine about....

or laugh about....

[Imola Duke]

As per Skids post re pistons.

I looked into this and they were £300 for 2..
But I understand now you have to buy the cylinders ?

Mine after 2008 were well worn and scored and when measured were well
under tolerance.

JE pistons could be a option as they make 4 off to order.
and half the price :)

Also for next season The Scruts will be hot on shark fins and they will need
to be like the one Chaz had made up ( I got pulled up on mine at CC and bernie explained to me and showed me Chaz's template)

Thanks for my shiney new one Chaz :)

[nelly]

A strobe lamp would do. :D

That isn't the issue, if adjustment is there thats why its slotted but that is only for the static/idle advance the igniters provide the advance over 3k, and as Nelly says there is no advantage with them.

Run too much advance with incorrect RON fuel and it will pink like hell and get you nowhere.

Yeah, but to what purpose. The facility is there, as standard, to adjust the ignition advance/retard. One DD'er could argue they had no idea.... plausible. The other could argue that having measured the TDC point the stock markings are out. Very plausible.
The pickups are the trigger for the CDi's. Move the plate 2 degress and the whole curve is moved 2 degrees. The ignitors simply carry the curve data. There's your advance.....

Why then would you go on a mass witch hunt for the either the DP ignitors or altered pick up positions?? It serves no purpose
The nett results of any tweaks to the ignition are neither here nor there.

IMO, the only mods worth any significant gain are flywheels, pistons and heads. These are easy spots and the tests are well known. Why spend 50 quid on a protest and waste the time of the officials chasing pickup positions when you'd get more advantage from a wearing a slicker helmet or tucking your elbows in a bit tighter.......
It's a waste of resource and time. The DD is supposed to be a simple series.

[dunlop0_1]

Never mind all this tech talk. MORE LAPS PER RACE PLEASE. 8 seems to be over so quickly or is that just me being a slow starter. LOL

Keep it as cheap and easy as possible.

[badgerpilot]

Never mind all this tech talk. MORE LAPS PER RACE PLEASE. 8 seems to be over so quickly or is that just me being a slow starter. LOL

Keep it as cheap and easy as possible.
8 laps seems to take me an eternity but I usually only get 7 because Shep laps me!
Now for the serious bit.
I'm very new to racing and this series but I've paid my money so I'll put my view out.
I chose to start racing in the DD class mainly because of the relitive low cost involved, I'm sure there are plenty of others who did the same. If people are talking of changing bikes then I for one will throw the towel in, it was hard enough convincing the other half that £1850 on a bike that gets ridden 20ish times a year was worth it. If changes are to be made to rules and regs I can cope with that, as long as it's still OK to ride last year's bikes.
I'm no petrol head, all this talk of ignitors, pistons and pick ups means Jack **** to me so any changes will be done by a garage at a cost, the difference between H and ZR rated tyres will be measured in £s not seconds by me. There are quite a few of us who do this racing purely for the enjoyment and crack, not necessarily points or shiny egg cups (got enough of them with plastic footballers and darts players on).
I'm never going to be breathing down Shep or Tim's necks at the front but I hope to be having a bloody good laugh scrapping for 12th with Kenny or Coxy (no offence guys) in a few season's time, as long as I can still turn out on my Badger. What I'm asking is that us budget riders (ie us who simply can't afford to spend 3 days at Pembrey) are considered in any rule ammendments.
Apologies for being uneducated and ignorant in the make up of our trusty steeds but I don't want my first season to also be my last.

[nelly]

8 laps seems to take me an eternity but I usually only get 7 because Shep laps me!
Now for the serious bit.
I'm very new to racing and this series but I've paid my money so I'll put my view out.
I chose to start racing in the DD class mainly because of the relitive low cost involved, I'm sure there are plenty of others who did the same. If people are talking of changing bikes then I for one will throw the towel in, it was hard enough convincing the other half that £1850 on a bike that gets ridden 20ish times a year was worth it. If changes are to be made to rules and regs I can cope with that, as long as it's still OK to ride last year's bikes.
I'm no petrol head, all this talk of ignitors, pistons and pick ups means Jack **** to me so any changes will be done by a garage at a cost, the difference between H and ZR rated tyres will be measured in £s not seconds by me. There are quite a few of us who do this racing purely for the enjoyment and crack, not necessarily points or shiny egg cups (got enough of them with plastic footballers and darts players on).
I'm never going to be breathing down Shep or Tim's necks at the front but I hope to be having a bloody good laugh scrapping for 12th with Kenny or Coxy (no offence guys) in a few season's time, as long as I can still turn out on my Badger. What I'm asking is that us budget riders (ie us who simply can't afford to spend 3 days at Pembrey) are considered in any rule ammendments.
Apologies for being uneducated and ignorant in the make up of our trusty steeds but I don't want my first season to also be my last.

and that's what it's all about. :)

[Ghost]

8 laps seems to take me an eternity but I usually only get 7 because Shep laps me!
Now for the serious bit.
I'm very new to racing and this series but I've paid my money so I'll put my view out.
I chose to start racing in the DD class mainly because of the relitive low cost involved, I'm sure there are plenty of others who did the same. If people are talking of changing bikes then I for one will throw the towel in, it was hard enough convincing the other half that £1850 on a bike that gets ridden 20ish times a year was worth it. If changes are to be made to rules and regs I can cope with that, as long as it's still OK to ride last year's bikes.
I'm no petrol head, all this talk of ignitors, pistons and pick ups means Jack **** to me so any changes will be done by a garage at a cost, the difference between H and ZR rated tyres will be measured in £s not seconds by me. There are quite a few of us who do this racing purely for the enjoyment and crack, not necessarily points or shiny egg cups (got enough of them with plastic footballers and darts players on).
I'm never going to be breathing down Shep or Tim's necks at the front but I hope to be having a bloody good laugh scrapping for 12th with Kenny or Coxy (no offence guys) in a few season's time, as long as I can still turn out on my Badger. What I'm asking is that us budget riders (ie us who simply can't afford to spend 3 days at Pembrey) are considered in any rule ammendments.
Apologies for being uneducated and ignorant in the make up of our trusty steeds but I don't want my first season to also be my last.


I agree also, Chris Bushell saying they should be phased out by 2011. FFS they are still racing 50 year old Manx Nortons.

If I'm unfortunate enough to break a piston I will find a pair at 80mm diameter and hopefully the right height. As long as its flat on the top why should I have to pay Ducati prices. Who would know anyway.

All this talk of you can/can't do this or the other. Nothing is policed. The speeds of the bikes on the straight at Cadwell and Castle Combe were virtually identical. If you back off the throttle a little and another rider doesn't you will lose several yards.

So sensible rules open things up to get pattern parts if poss, brainstorm any changes before implementing and lets just have fun on the track. :D

[skidlids]

As per Skids post re pistons.

I looked into this and they were £300 for 2..
But I understand now you have to buy the cylinders ?

Mine after 2008 were well worn and scored and when measured were well
under tolerance.

JE pistons could be a option as they make 4 off to order.
and half the price :)



Steve I also had a good look around at the start of the season when riders were saying they were finding it hard to source pistons, there are a few Hi comp kits around like the FBF ones but that would give anyone using them an advantage.

I eventually came to the conclusion that we would need to find a company that would make replicas of the originals after all they do it for older Ducatis and other makes of bikes.
I ended up with a short list of companies that may be worth approaching and JE was one of them.

I was campaigning a 583 before class B existed partly to prove that you didn't need the exspense of 620s or 675cc bore kits to get out on the track and have fun.

I would hate to see class B die off which is why I think the rules on Pistons in Class B needs looking at so that an alternative source can be used without adding to riders costs and without changing the performance characteristics of the engine.

So if anybody has any contacts at companies that can make pistons I'm all ears.
I know Phil (Ghost) has been looking into it as I had a PM from him a while back asking after dimensions, trouble was I didn't have any 583 pistons about only 620 ones or the ones from Scooter916's old 675 kit

[dunlop0_1]

8 laps seems to take me an eternity but I usually only get 7 because Shep laps me!
Now for the serious bit.
I'm very new to racing and this series but I've paid my money so I'll put my view out.
I chose to start racing in the DD class mainly because of the relitive low cost involved, I'm sure there are plenty of others who did the same. If people are talking of changing bikes then I for one will throw the towel in, it was hard enough convincing the other half that £1850 on a bike that gets ridden 20ish times a year was worth it. If changes are to be made to rules and regs I can cope with that, as long as it's still OK to ride last year's bikes.
I'm no petrol head, all this talk of ignitors, pistons and pick ups means Jack **** to me so any changes will be done by a garage at a cost, the difference between H and ZR rated tyres will be measured in £s not seconds by me. There are quite a few of us who do this racing purely for the enjoyment and crack, not necessarily points or shiny egg cups (got enough of them with plastic footballers and darts players on).
I'm never going to be breathing down Shep or Tim's necks at the front but I hope to be having a bloody good laugh scrapping for 12th with Kenny or Coxy (no offence guys) in a few season's time, as long as I can still turn out on my Badger. What I'm asking is that us budget riders (ie us who simply can't afford to spend 3 days at Pembrey) are considered in any rule ammendments.
Apologies for being uneducated and ignorant in the make up of our trusty steeds but I don't want my first season to also be my last.

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head as they say.

[ChrisBushell]

To clarify my earlier comment, I was only suggesting ceasing with the 583 bikes if it became no longer viable to get parts for them. The point about Manx Nortons is valid - I race a 52 year old Ducati single! The difference with these bikes is that there is a parts and engineering network to allow us to re-build them - this is not yet properly in pace for these "new" bikes.

[injected]

FFS they are still racing 50 year old Manx Nortons.

Yes, but I was talking to one of the riders at Donington who had just spent £8k on an engine.... not quite DD budget methinks!

[Fastfasulli]

Steve I also had a good look around at the start of the season when riders were saying they were finding it hard to source pistons, there are a few Hi comp kits around like the FBF ones but that would give anyone using them an advantage.

I eventually came to the conclusion that we would need to find a company that would make replicas of the originals after all they do it for older Ducatis and other makes of bikes.
I ended up with a short list of companies that may be worth approaching and JE was one of them.

I was campaigning a 583 before class B existed partly to prove that you didn't need the exspense of 620s or 675cc bore kits to get out on the track and have fun.

I would hate to see class B die off which is why I think the rules on Pistons in Class B needs looking at so that an alternative source can be used without adding to riders costs and without changing the performance characteristics of the engine.

So if anybody has any contacts at companies that can make pistons I'm all ears.
I know Phil (Ghost) has been looking into it as I had a PM from him a while back asking after dimensions, trouble was I didn't have any 583 pistons about only 620 ones or the ones from Scooter916's old 675 kit

I have a piston if someone wants to measure it up. Unless i can do it for you

[steve41]

[QUOTE=Ghost] Chris Bushell saying they should be phased out by 2011. FFS they are still racing 50 year old Manx Nortons.

I am new to the DD this year, but have been racing classics for the last 4/5 years. I went into that class on what they view as a budget bike, a Honda 350 K4. Price of a good standard bike, 4k, in a Drixton or TAB frame upwards of 6K. Parts for engines, head work, minimum of 1k a year running cost. To build a standard engine into a race one, 3k minimum. I ended up demanding more power to stay in the top 3, more and more expence.

As for Nortons, Matchless G50's, Aermacchi's don't go there. 2-3k a year for minimal work on the engines, complete replica bikes are 20K and upwards. Tyres are £140 for a rear only!!!! The top guys are changing them for every meeting.

This market is boyant as there are a number on engineering firms who have cornered the market for parts, engine and ignition, all are replica's of the original. As they have cornered the market, there prices reflect this!!!!!

My point is any older bikes can be run competatively, but they are expensive. Also there are continual problems with what is eligible and what is not.

To be fair to all, regs need to be in place early, and as a club stick together to try to get the best deal possible for parts and tyres. These then become the only replacements allowed for OEM parts, and hopefully a deal can be done to buys these at a discounted price for club members.

That keeps everyone out there to have fun

See you all at Pembrey and Cadwell.

[ChrisBushell]

[QUOTE=Ghost] Chris Bushell saying they should be phased out by 2011. FFS they are still racing 50 year old Manx Nortons.

I am new to the DD this year, but have been racing classics for the last 4/5 years. I went into that class on what they view as a budget bike, a Honda 350 K4. Price of a good standard bike, 4k, in a Drixton or TAB frame upwards of 6K. Parts for engines, head work, minimum of 1k a year running cost. To build a standard engine into a race one, 3k minimum. I ended up demanding more power to stay in the top 3, more and more expence.

As for Nortons, Matchless G50's, Aermacchi's don't go there. 2-3k a year for minimal work on the engines, complete replica bikes are 20K and upwards. Tyres are £140 for a rear only!!!! The top guys are changing them for every meeting.

This market is boyant as there are a number on engineering firms who have cornered the market for parts, engine and ignition, all are replica's of the original. As they have cornered the market, there prices reflect this!!!!!

My point is any older bikes can be run competatively, but they are expensive. Also there are continual problems with what is eligible and what is not.

To be fair to all, regs need to be in place early, and as a club stick together to try to get the best deal possible for parts and tyres. These then become the only replacements allowed for OEM parts, and hopefully a deal can be done to buys these at a discounted price for club members.

That keeps everyone out there to have fun

See you all at Pembrey and Cadwell.

An interesting and thought provoking post. My old Ducati singles consume about £500 on a minor overhaul and £1K for a major one and that is just in std not racing form. The main thing is that I can get most of the parts from suppliers, most of whom are not in the UK.

If enough people wish to race the 583s then let them continue - but keep the rules on modifications tight, so that there is an element of cost control.

[injected]

To go back to the timing question, I think even if all the standard electrical parts are required by the 2010 rules to be retained, it's still too easy to cheat by filing the trigger on the flywheel and advancing the ignition that way (albeit by a fixed amount throughout the rev range).

I think that the standard ignition architecture should be retained, but advance curve and timing trigger should be free, even in Class B. This would allow any igniter boxes to be fitted, and the trigger could be played with.

Getting performance gains from this rule would depend on careful work and testing more than ££, so it fits with the DD ethos.

EDIT: I believe that the thing that stops 583's performing is the piston/valve/head combination, so pursuing performance via timing alone is going to produce small results. It would be interesting to do some research...

[Fastfasulli]

To go back to the timing question, I think even if all the standard electrical parts are required by the 2010 rules to be retained, it's still too easy to cheat by filing the trigger on the flywheel and advancing the ignition that way (albeit by a fixed amount throughout the rev range).

I think that the standard ignition architecture should be retained, but advance curve and timing trigger should be free, even in Class B. This would allow any igniter boxes to be fitted, and the trigger could be played with.

Getting performance gains from this rule would depend on careful work and testing more than ££, so it fits with the DD ethos.


Provided you know how to do it as opposed to have to pay someone else to do it

[kenoir]

Please don't change the rules for next year too much!

I'm in the process of getting a bike sorted for next season and it's costing a small fortune as it is! I don't want to have to make changes as well.

[skidlids]

What they did/do give was/is a monetry saving in replacing the stock boxes should they fail. The DP items are cheaper, as a pair, than buying stock parts. This has a been a reason that i know of in two cases where they have been used.


Well thats certainly in keeping with the DD ethos
And as I have said if you can' t Police a rule/regulation then what value does that rule/regulation have.

Regarding the Race Bikes I can't see the need for many rule changes for next season, just thining out worthless ones, doing away with ones already covered by the ACU Handbook and allowing the adoption of Non OEM REPLICA parts such as Pistons for 583s especially if we could arrange an approved supplier.

One rule I am expecting the ACU to change at some point in the next few years is the Noise level, I'd expect a reduction of 3dB at some point. I recall last time it happened and all race cans seemed to grow 2" in length. we will just have to wait and see on that front.

[ChrisBushell]

EDIT: I believe that the thing that stops 583's performing is the piston/valve/head combination, so pursuing performance via timing alone is going to produce small results. It would be interesting to do some research...

Spot on, the valves and ports, together with the combustion chamber are too small to pull enough gas through to make more than about 52bhp. Fitting 620 heads and pistons apparently makes them fly!

[Chris Wood]

So...

Tyres - leave it
Pistons - copies of OE
CDIs - leave it

Job done.

Move on and race then....it was easier in 2007!:lol:

[dunlop0_1]

So...

Tyres - leave it
Pistons - copies of OE
CDIs - leave it

Job done.

Move on and race then....it was easier in 2007!:lol:

So much said with so few words. Genius.

[Imola Duke]

Steve I also had a good look around at the start of the season when riders were saying they were finding it hard to source pistons, there are a few Hi comp kits around like the FBF ones but that would give anyone using them an advantage.

I eventually came to the conclusion that we would need to find a company that would make replicas of the originals after all they do it for older Ducatis and other makes of bikes.
I ended up with a short list of companies that may be worth approaching and JE was one of them.

I was campaigning a 583 before class B existed partly to prove that you didn't need the exspense of 620s or 675cc bore kits to get out on the track and have fun.

I would hate to see class B die off which is why I think the rules on Pistons in Class B needs looking at so that an alternative source can be used without adding to riders costs and without changing the performance characteristics of the engine.

So if anybody has any contacts at companies that can make pistons I'm all ears.
I know Phil (Ghost) has been looking into it as I had a PM from him a while back asking after dimensions, trouble was I didn't have any 583 pistons about only 620 ones or the ones from Scooter916's old 675 kit

Phil's got a old pair of pistons of mine from a 583 (1996)

Maybe worth getting some price's for je etc to see if they will manufacture a patch so we can buy them in pairs.. The last time a bought a pair of 900ss
pistons they were £150 c/w rings pins and clips..
They will be better quality and tolerence and no performance gains should be had due to the worm hole valve size's.
We also have a max BHP limit so that should stop any tuning for power gains.
Also you can buy very cheap ignition module to suite the 2v carby dukes and
are much much cheaper than the Duke Ignitor modules.
But you can adjust curve and advance but as i said we do have a bhp limit.

The disc rule change has worked well this season and used brembo/duke discs
have plummeted in value for some reason :)

Cracking frames
The SS carby frames are getting rare to buy now and as you know mine cracked around the headstock but thankfully a coded welder repaired it (Ghost)
Maybe other riders need to be aware of this known weak spot on the ss frame
for safety reasons because powder coating can hide this ?

Just my thoughts :)

[faith-healer]

583 Pistons....

I seem to remember Nogs' saying something about pistons being available from Canada....at a fairly reasonable price even with the postage involved.

Maybe he'll be along with more info'....

Meanwhile I can't seem a problem in getting pistons matched/made up. Many years ago I had a piston crack, in a Volvo truck, on the way back from the Middle East. The Turks' spanner monkeys' turned one down from solid, found rings to the correct bore, machined the grooves and then put it all back together.

There was less than 5 grams difference between the copy and OEM....so if all else fails we could order some from Istanbul:D :D :D

[Ghost]

My thoughts on pistons so far, I found that Rover K series 1.8, were flat topped, 80mm o/d, gudgeon pin the correct diameter.............but the deck height is too short, (height above the pin to piston crown).

But if needs be I would modify them and make them work. I will keep looking as there must be something about with the dimensions we require.

It hasn't been a priority as yet hopefully won't be.

[faith-healer]

Hi Phil...

My old 500/4 SOHC Honda race engine used Kawasaki pistons....

The gudgeon pin holes were 2mm smaller and had to be re-machined and the valve recesses recut 0.5mm deeper, then they were perfect....plus a 1.5 raise in compression. :cool: Worked well with the Joy (Isle of Man profile) cam and the close ratio box.

If I remember rightly the dyno-read-out (still got it somewhere) was 71bhp ATBW

So there's always "something" out there, its just a question of satisfying the compliance police :D :D

[Fastfasulli]

So all in all 583's are here to stay.....for the forseeable future

[Ghost]

So all in all 583's are here to stay.....for the forseeable future

For me they should be and I would think most others want to race them. I'm getting too old for anything faster anyway.:eek:

These suit me fine. :D

[brummydave]

For me they should be and I would think most others want to race them. I'm getting too old for anything faster anyway.:eek:

These suit me fine. :D
i dont know about anything faster,they still hurt when you come off or get knocked off!!apart from the people in the paddock,the apealing thing to me about dd racing was the regs keeping the racing close ,ie rider skill notpocket money,for my ten pence worth (gone metric now)i would like to propose that more emphasis be put on the horsepower limit than what you actually put on the engine to achieve it,those that like to tinker may find ways of acheiving more usable power range,/delivery but we would still all be limited to say 53 bhp. at the moment we are moving into a scenario that budget racing is becoming expensive ie spend £300 on barrels and pistons or run with a lower bhp,so it doesnt matter what pistons,igniters,timing settings you use but be prepared to spend an agreed amount say twice a year un anounced to have your bike dyno tested,this negates the problems of having to stump up for an appeal ,acusations etc which is damaging to the paddock, after all i am sure dynojet kits,air filters and open pipes (all legal) are far more effective than ignition timing.
now just a quickie on tyres i was one of the infamous four on z rated tyres at castle coombe-for which i apologise but ignorance is no defence !! i have managed to build a monster and recently run it at mallory on 2nd hand h rated tyres and ran 3 seconds quicker than my best race time !! so my thoughts are a fresher engine /setup is far more effective than a miniscule tyre issue,however tyre safety must be paramountand we should be able to rely on manufacturers compliance ,whoever they are,but i do miss the bridgestone /michelin battles of the old moto gp days .anyway i have run out big words now ,and as a novice running around at the back i just enjoy the oprtunity to race ,and at least i aired my unqualified thoughts. cheers phil
ps attaced pick of the new class b 96

[mat2hew]

My £300 ebay second hand engine seems to be o.k. without spending time & money rebuilding. But... it does look like it spent the last 5 years at the bottom of a lake!

they never blow up anyway, do they?

Matt #72

[nogaromill998]

I have always seen FWR as a cheap place for tyres and this is there current prices on H rated Diablos. http://www.fwr.co.uk/pirellit.htm#diablo
110/70H17 - £69.00
120/60H17 - £69.00
150/60H17 - £95.00
160/60H17 - £99.00

There is no 120/70H17 front listed so based on a 60 profile front a pair will cost £168 so not as cheap as Holbeach

a pair of ZR rtaed is £181
120/70 ZR17 - £82.00
160/60 ZR17 - £99.00

I think the deal we get along with the support in the paddock and several tyres as raffle prizes is a pretty decent deal


Well not racing in DD next year means I have no axe to grind regarding tyres, but Maxxis, whose product has been tested as you all know, by some Class B midfielders and Sam West, the Championship leader ( who would change tomorrow if he could ), who want to put a deal forward that offers the letter of suitability that the club wants, pairs of freely available, ZR rated tyres to participating riders for £100 a pair, donate 2 pairs of tyres at each round as prizes, donate all the cups and trophies for the podium places for the full season, and work out a way to get the tyres to the tracks and fit them. But there is a wall of resistance to keep the series using a tyre from a manufacturer that gives bugger all to those riding in the series, that still insists we advertise their product on the bikes. So PLEASE, dont lets have talk about keeping the series economical when the tyre costs could be slashed in an instant but WONT be.

[Ghost]

Well not racing in DD next year means I have no axe to grind regarding tyres, but Maxxis, whose product has been tested as you all know, by some Class B midfielders and Sam West, the Championship leader ( who would change tomorrow if he could ), who want to put a deal forward that offers the letter of suitability that the club wants, pairs of freely available, ZR rated tyres to participating riders for £100 a pair, donate 2 pairs of tyres at each round as prizes, donate all the cups and trophies for the podium places for the full season, and work out a way to get the tyres to the tracks and fit them. But there is a wall of resistance to keep the series using a tyre from a manufacturer that gives bugger all to those riding in the series, that still insists we advertise their product on the bikes. So PLEASE, dont lets have talk about keeping the series economical when the tyre costs could be slashed in an instant but WONT be.

No one has seen the other letter yet from that Pirelli company. Well I say no one, but lets make it available for all to see.

[badgerpilot]

Well not racing in DD next year means I have no axe to grind regarding tyres, but Maxxis, whose product has been tested as you all know, by some Class B midfielders and Sam West, the Championship leader ( who would change tomorrow if he could ), who want to put a deal forward that offers the letter of suitability that the club wants, pairs of freely available, ZR rated tyres to participating riders for £100 a pair, donate 2 pairs of tyres at each round as prizes, donate all the cups and trophies for the podium places for the full season, and work out a way to get the tyres to the tracks and fit them. But there is a wall of resistance to keep the series using a tyre from a manufacturer that gives bugger all to those riding in the series, that still insists we advertise their product on the bikes. So PLEASE, dont lets have talk about keeping the series economical when the tyre costs could be slashed in an instant but WONT be.
As one of the CC naughty boys I have changed my ZRs to Hs and will be pretty miffed if we're to change but if it means safer and more cost effective racing then I like this Maxxis idea.
Pair of hardly used Hs anyone?

FREE THE CC4, we're just stupid not cheats!

[Ghost]

As one of the CC naughty boys I have changed my ZRs to Hs and will be pretty miffed if we're to change but if it means safer and more cost effective racing then I like this Maxxis idea.
Pair of hardly used Hs anyone?

FREE THE CC4, we're just stupid not cheats!

:devil: Its an easy error, tread pattern is the same, no one seems to know why ZR were allowed then suddenly they were not. Possibly they are easier to get hold of from anywhere.

[Imola Duke]

Not ridden on maxxis yet!

I have done various TD's with Ghost this year and the last one at Pembrey
Phil didn't have problems getting heat into the tyres and the grip looked good
while my diablos moved around alot trying to stay with Phil.

Iv'e seen plenty of ZR rated tyres fitted to slower lighter race bikes and on the road :confused:

[mat2hew]

on my class b bike the h rated tyres have been great, just the way i like them, maybe the class a bikes should be aloud a 'grippier' tyre which could help to widen the gap a bit more.

you can ride as fast as you, your bike and your tyres will allow, any faster and you may crash!

[Chris Wood]

Seriously, give it a rest on the tyres.

Is it SO obvious that there is a conspiracy between Pirelli, DSC, Holbeach, New Era, Shell, Marlboro, Ducati and Chris Bushell to make it as hard as possible to buy tyres, they even had to make up a story about a letter of liability. Its been going on for the last 5 years!!

Simply put together an alternate proposal from another supplier, submit via the right channels, in the right way and be done with it.

Maybe?

[paynep]

Wets?

[chris.p]

Wets?


You have only to look at the times from last years Brands meeting to see that the present tyres are good enough for the job at this moment in time.


Chris:burn:

[nogaromill998]

To BOTH Chris'...........Its nothing to do with whether the tyre gives any improvement in performance, but whether EQUAL performance can be had whilst getting a better, cheaper deal that in no way is detrimental to the series but reduces the cost to the participant rider....after all, keeping costs down........thats what the 'powers that be' keep banging on about, isnt it?

[chris.p]

To BOTH Chris'...........Its nothing to do with whether the tyre gives any improvement in performance, but whether EQUAL performance can be had whilst getting a better, cheaper deal that in no way is detrimental to the series but reduces the cost to the participant rider....after all, keeping costs down........thats what the 'powers that be' keep banging on about, isnt it?


David, I was replying to Pauls request for Wets, not any change of tyre manufacturer.
If you add a set of wet's into the equation you will need two sets of wheels, front & rear paddock stands etc, the costs soon mount up.
I have not dissed your request for a differaent make of tyre, as Chris said, get the data, and put it to Gordon, he is the DD RC fella.



Chris:burn:

[paynep]

You have only to look at the times from last years Brands meeting to see that the present tyres are good enough for the job at this moment in time.


Chris:burn:

I just felt that 70-odd posts in and we'd done ECUs, tyre make, 695s, number of rounds etc like we do every year and no one had mentioned wets yet, so I would :lol:

Someone else can bring up the points system, fork mods for Class B, mixed grids, protest procedure etc old chestnuts up!
:devil:

[Chris Wood]

To BOTH Chris'...........Its nothing to do with whether the tyre gives any improvement in performance, but whether EQUAL performance can be had whilst getting a better, cheaper deal that in no way is detrimental to the series but reduces the cost to the participant rider....after all, keeping costs down........thats what the 'powers that be' keep banging on about, isnt it?

Good point, please preface with:

'In your opinion'

Costs or value - perception is a variable beast.

Who are the mysterious, 'powers that be'?

[MLC Racing]

I just felt that 70-odd posts in and we'd done ECUs, tyre make, 695s, number of rounds etc like we do every year and no one had mentioned wets yet, so I would :lol:

Someone else can bring up the points system, fork mods for Class B, mixed grids, protest procedure etc old chestnuts up!
:devil:

Up your own chesnuts matey.....and trump you with mi tyre warmers!

[ChrisBushell]

Good point, please preface with:

'In your opinion'

Costs or value - perception is a variable beast.

Who are the mysterious, 'powers that be'?

Chris,

Well put, there has not been a formal/written request to the RC to consider the choice of tyres that the series might run. There has been a lot of speculation and words on the forum earlier in the season, but that is not a proposal.

Ultimately we are not aware of any racer that is not happy to race on the Pirelli's, in fact they would seem to be suitable for the series under all conditions and the main thing is that the manufacturer has signed off on that.

Yes we could look at wets, but as Chris.P pointed out that increases costs for all involved, not saving costs. With regard to using a "cheaper" tyre, the ultimate decision is not cost but rider safety on track - can anyone show that in any way the Pirelli is lacking in suitability?

[Ian]

it is amazing how the same issue crops up over and over again....Nothing ever changes in the DSC, bless it!

The tyre letter from Pirelli exists or certainly did exist (I have recently thrown out an enormous pile of DSC paperwork away in which I think there was a copy). - As Chairman at the time of the start of DD we were very concerned about liability, both financial and moral, - racing is dangerous and we wanted to reduce risk to both the Club and certainly the riders. At the time there were "issues" around road tyre suitability on track, - I can recall the conversation regarding a dreadful accident at Brands Hatch, that if I recall correctly unsuitability of tyres in a sudden downpour were in part to blame.

Right from the start the series was setup to be step up from track days so riders would not have race experience and very purposefully did not want decisions over wets and slicks, and the resulting wrong decisions ending up with accidents.

I did a search in my inbox for Pirelli and founds loads of e-mails, - this one dated 15th March 2005 between the then RC is quite interesting:
5) A lot of you will be aware of the ongoing police investigation into the death of a superstock rider last year, this caused us a problem over the tyre issue for the series. It should be noted that Pirelli came forward and provided us with the necessary written confirmation of the suitability of their Diablo tyre for the series. This has in all probability saved us from having to cancel the series or introduce an expensive tyre option including 2 sets of wheels, warmers, wets, etc. which the majority did not want. Do not underestimate the potential liability issues that we were having to deal with here and what this commitment from Pirelli means.

Obviously this took us a lot longer to sort out that we had hoped for, however we have managed to do it and the series goes ahead. Some rather snide remarks have been made in Pirelli's direction on the message board. I think that I should set the record straight in this area. Firstly no where does it say that you have to buy your tyres from A & R racing, market forces will always apply, but they will have stocks of tyres at each of the rounds for those that might need them. Secondly as we asked Pirelli so late in the day, they were not able to put loads of money (free tyres!) into the series because of their other commitments

[paynep]

Up your own chesnuts matey.....and trump you with mi tyre warmers!

Dam, you got me there. Trump away triumphantly :eek:

[couchcommando]

Ooooh a 749 series.......

[ChrisBushell]

Ooooh a 749 series.......

Now there is an interesting idea!

[Tonio600]

Where do I sign?

[Ghost]

Chris,

Well put, there has not been a formal/written request to the RC to consider the choice of tyres that the series might run. There has been a lot of speculation and words on the forum earlier in the season, but that is not a proposal.

Ultimately we are not aware of any racer that is not happy to race on the Pirelli's, in fact they would seem to be suitable for the series under all conditions and the main thing is that the manufacturer has signed off on that.

Yes we could look at wets, but as Chris.P pointed out that increases costs for all involved, not saving costs. With regard to using a "cheaper" tyre, the ultimate decision is not cost but rider safety on track - can anyone show that in any way the Pirelli is lacking in suitability?

Why is the point always being MISSED

It isn't about the suitability, its about the monopoly on supply. open it up to ZR's there are then oodles of suppliers one could get them from.

As it is now HR'S suppliers are easily counted on one hand.

As I have said before a light DD bike will get far more heat in a tyre on track than a T9 will on the road, so that is not a dismissing factor.

[Tonio600]

It isn't about the suitability, its about the monopoly on supply. open it up to ZR's there are then oodles of suppliers one could get them from.

I bought a pair of ZR's by mistake at the beginning of the season. It did cost me £20 more than what Holbeach charge us for the HR. For once, I am quite happy with that monopoly if really monopoly there is...

[ChrisBushell]

Why is the point always being MISSED

It isn't about the suitability, its about the monopoly on supply. open it up to ZR's there are then oodles of suppliers one could get them from.

As it is now HR'S suppliers are easily counted on one hand.

As I have said before a light DD bike will get far more heat in a tyre on track than a T9 will on the road, so that is not a dismissing factor.

I am afraid that you have this wrong. It is not about a monopoly of supply (no one has insisted that you buy your tyres from Holbeech and I confirmed that I could order them from my local supplier on a 48hr basis this morning) it is about the tyres being used being "fit for purpose".

We have previously been informed by Pirelli (and I reconfirmed this at the begining of this season) that the Class A bikes (our most powerful) do not have enough power or weight to work the ZR tyre hard enough to get them up to operating temperature for safe racing under the conditions that we operate under at New Era events.

If the bikes had more than 90bhp and weiged more than 175kgs, then they would be recommending the ZR rated tyre - we do not meet either criteria.

Hopefully that will put this to bed once and for all.

[skidlids]

I am afraid that you have this wrong. It is not about a monopoly of supply (no one has insisted that you buy your tyres from Holbeech and I confirmed that I could order them from my local supplier on a 48hr basis this morning) it is about the tyres being used being "fit for purpose".



As my linkon page 3 of this topic shows FWR can do the rears but at £99

Stickstuff can do a rear for a tad over £88 and a front just over £68 os about £157 a pair

http://www.sticky-stuff.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=2_144_155&products_id=5799


http://www.sticky-stuff.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=2_144_155&products_id=5762

Not what I would call a Monopoly
Also BuggsySPS has looked in to what the tyre company he works for could supply them for, they can supply them but at a cost greater than Holbeach

[Ghost]

I am afraid that you have this wrong. It is not about a monopoly of supply (no one has insisted that you buy your tyres from Holbeech and I confirmed that I could order them from my local supplier on a 48hr basis this morning) it is about the tyres being used being "fit for purpose".

We have previously been informed by Pirelli (and I reconfirmed this at the begining of this season) that the Class A bikes (our most powerful) do not have enough power or weight to work the ZR tyre hard enough to get them up to operating temperature for safe racing under the conditions that we operate under at New Era events.

If the bikes had more than 90bhp and weiged more than 175kgs, then they would be recommending the ZR rated tyre - we do not meet either criteria.

Hopefully that will put this to bed once and for all.

I don't accept that as a valid argument, 125 Hondas and the supermono class, carry less mass than ours, same to not much hp difference.

You cannot sit there and justifiably say that a 748/749/999 road bike will work a tyre harder on the road than a Desmo on the track, as that is a total nonsence.

You made the point a supplier can get in 48 hours. Common used tyres i.e ZR Rossos would be in stock, even at mediocre suppliers

[Chris Wood]

Pirelli seem to be saying it, i'd hope they know something about tyres???

Perhaps take your issue up with them directly?

[Ghost]

Pirelli seem to be saying it, i'd hope they know something about tyres???

Perhaps take your issue up with them directly?That is the question Pirelli seem to be saying it, no proof.

ZR's were allowed and good enough in 2006 what has changed??

[Ray]

http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/showthread.php?t=79165&page=9&highlight=poll

Just in case there are some old chestnuts in that thread that need a reheat.

The Supermono classes I'm aware of use wets and drys.

The current DD tyre is a compromise for both wet and dry conditions.

Not the best for dry, not the best for wet, not the cheapest, not the most expensive.

The majority of DD competitors appeared to want to use Pirelli less 6 months ago, has that really changed?

Ray

[ChrisBushell]

I don't accept that as a valid argument, 125 Hondas and the supermono class, carry less mass than ours, same to not much hp difference.

You cannot sit there and justifiably say that a 748/749/999 road bike will work a tyre harder on the road than a Desmo on the track, as that is a total nonsence.

You made the point a supplier can get in 48 hours. Common used tyres i.e ZR Rossos would be in stock, even at mediocre suppliers

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am afraid that your argument is flawed.

Both of the series that you mention do not run a road based control tyre. I understand they have the option to run wets so their tyre performance in colder/wet conditions is not an issue.

I have spoken to the Pirelli representative this morning and they have confirmed that the reason for the recommendation of the use of the HR rated tyre is to do with cold/wet weather running. In cold/wet weather with lower track temperatures an HR rated tyre will run at operating temperature apreciably more quickly than a ZR rated tyre, given the weight and performance of the bikes to which they are fitted - equally they will cope with dry hot conditions without any problems.

The suggestion is that an HR tyre will get to proper operating temperature in a couple of laps max - you can push it from the race start - on a ZR tyre you might need 2-3 racing laps to get them up to temperature on a cold/wet day and that has safety implications, after all you are racing from the moment the lights go out - who would wait for their tyres to get up to temperature?

[Ghost]

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am afraid that your argument is flawed.

Both of the series that you mention do not run a road based control tyre. I understand they have the option to run wets so their tyre performance in colder/wet conditions is not an issue.

I have spoken to the Pirelli representative this morning and they have confirmed that the reason for the recommendation of the use of the HR rated tyre is to do with cold/wet weather running. In cold/wet weather with lower track temperatures an HR rated tyre will run at operating temperature apreciably more quickly than a ZR rated tyre, given the weight and performance of the bikes to which they are fitted - equally they will cope with dry hot conditions without any problems.

The suggestion is that an HR tyre will get to proper operating temperature in a couple of laps max - you can push it from the race start - on a ZR tyre you might need 2-3 racing laps to get them up to temperature on a cold/wet day and that has safety implications, after all you are racing from the moment the lights go out - who would wait for their tyres to get up to temperature?

Thanks for the explanation, its no use to me saying you must do this, or that, without an explanation. But still the question as to why they were allowed in the first 2 seasons, then vetoed what happened/or grounds for the change.

[skidlids]

Thanks for the explanation, its no use to me saying you must do this, or that, without an explanation. But still the question as to why they were allowed in the first 2 seasons, then vetoed what happened/or grounds for the change.

possibly because when the tyre manufacturers were first approached about DD there was no Class B, and the rules allowed for tuned 675cc machines which may have misled them into believing the bikes would be more powerful than they actually are. Not sure what GS's 620 with the Baines 675 kit made in the way of Horsepower.

Since we have changed to H rated tyres after the 2006 season the Class B lap records have certainly improved in some cases to the tune of 2 seconds.

My belief is that this is in part due to the quicker warm up of the H rated tyre over the Z rated ones. Which in turn allows the riders to get up to speed earlier in the race and have more time left before the chequred flag to improve their times.
I suspect this mainly applies the newer the tyre is and after a period of use and several heat cycles this advantage drops away.

There are probably a few out there that try and exploit this possibility and fit new tyres at a greater rate than many of the others.

A Bit of DD History regarding tyres

From a very early 2005 Rule Book 23/1/05

1.6.7 Tyres

This section is still To Be Advised. There are several options currently being considered including Control tyres, tyre warmers and wets.

Following the meeting of DD registered entrants after the AGM held 12th Feb 2005 this announcement was made

Tyres

After much investigation and deliberation, it was agreed by the entrants that a single moulded tread road tyre should be used, that wets & warmers would not be allowed in this first year of the series.

Accordingly the decision was taken that the Pirelli Diablo would be the only tyre used by entrants this year. At present the cost to entrants will be £120 + VAT per pair, we are working on a further discount and hope to have further news at the end of the month. At the same time we will confirm where you order them from.

In addition we are making arrangements for the support and supply of tyres at all of the New Era meetings with Pirelli. Following a meeting on the 24th of February, we hope to be able to announce further goodies that will be made available.

It was also agreed at the meeting after the AGM that in the event that the majority of entrants found that they wished to be allowed to use a full wet tyre, after the initial races, then the way would be open for a petition to be put to the committee to allow their use in the 1st year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Later on it was announced that Pirelli as part of there sponsorship would donate a pair of tyres at each meeting to be awarded as prizes

----------------------------------------------------------------

Then in 2006 we had this option

Ok Folks,

The news that you have all been waiting for regarding tyres this year! The negotiations have been protracted, but we think will serve the whole grid well this year and the price is very competitive. We are recommending this arrangement to the riders.

What do you need to do to have a say? Just send a simple Tyres Yes or No to Desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com no later than 12.00 on Sunday the 5th of March and a simple majority will decide. We will announce the result on Sunday afternoon.

Desmo Due Tyres 2006

As most of you will be aware we have been in negotiation with Pirelli regarding sponsorship of tyres for the series, owing primarily to budgetary reductions Pirelli are not going to supply us with tyres as prizes for 2006.

However, they have offered support for the series through Holbeech Tyres, who attend all New Era Meetings.

What does this mean for the series:

1) We will get price support from Pirelli for the tyres we buy. The price is quoted at £135.00 inc VAT fitted. These are for a 120/60-70 front and 160 rear.

2) Prizes in the form of merchandising (caps, fleeces, polo and t-shirts, etc) will be provided.

3) Pirelli will provide UK WSB tickets for this years races at Brands and Silverstone. Numbers are still to be confirmed, but it is hoped they will allow access to the paddock and possibly Pirelli hospitality.

Ok what does that mean for the series:

All bikes will be required to carry Pirelli and Holbeech tyres stickers on their machines. These will be provided.

1) All tyres used in the series this year will be stamped by Holbeech tyres. Anyone found using tyres without these markings will loose their points.

2) At Cadwell Park on the 25th/26th March, each machine will be required to be taken to Holbeech tyres truck; the tyres fitted to the machine and one spare pair (if already owned) will be marked by them.

3) Any subsequent tyres will need to be purchased from Holbeech tyres. These will be marked at time of sale. You can either have them fitted at the track or sent through by post and fitted locally.

Given that we have 62 bikes on the two grids, it will be necessary for you to phone Holbeech on 01406-423611, 10 days before any race meeting, if you want to have them put tyres on the truck for you. This is particularly true before Brands Hatch (for Assen) and at Castle Combe/Oulton, when it is expected that most of the grid will be looking to have new tyres fitted (please see below).

They will carry a number of sets to meet immediate requirements at each meeting

------------------------------------------------------------------
The above option WAS taken up that year AS voted for by the RIDERS.
I was on the RC in 2006 as the Class B rider’s rep so I got to see more of the information than most other riders

[WeeJohnyB]

:lol: The never-ending saga that is tyres in DD:lol:

ok, I know some of you hate it when people who don't even race or race in DD stick their size 10's into the arguement, (size 8 in my case), but I was there at that first meeting Skids mentions above. I may be wrong, but I think Skids and I were the only two who raced in DSC at the time, (I'm sure there were others who used to race), but although I was never intending to enter (it was designed for newbies), I was asked to act as an advisor on some of the more practical aspects.

Tyres got a lot of airtime back at that meeting and a lot of emotional arguements ensued. I say emotional, as the judgements made were subjective, not objective. Nobody in the room had raced. Nobody had raced on that tyre. I was suggesting DD copied the race formula I was experienced with in the CB500's who used Bridgestone road tyres. These tyres were proven to work, were cheap, already available through Holbeach by the van-load and still to this day produce laptimes for a 50bhp machine with no suspension other than a bedspring of 1.46 around Cadwell (think it might be 1.45 now). The reason pirelli was chosen was IMHO purely because people used the brand on their road Ducati's (not that tyre mind you) and the sexy link of the brands - Bridgestone was never a sexy brand.

The word safety is raised above and has been many times before and no doubt will be again. How can you tell me that it is 'safe' to ask a rider to ride to their limit and beyond in race conditions on a road tyre on a cold and wet March morning with no tyre warmers. Any racer will tell you it's madness, most wouldn't go out under such circumstances. In my first year in CB5's, wets were not allowed, but warmers were. I am by comparison to some of my lunatic competitors a fairly smooth rider, so I actually enjoyed the wet races on dry tyres as I knew I could beat others I normally wouldn't and that some of them would fall off. I have watched DD'ers tip toe around a corner in the wet and sat at The Hairpin and the Mountain at Cadwell watching good riders fall off and take others out with them.

What price 'cheap' racing when your bike is in bits, the guy next to you in the paddock's season is over because you took him out and you are sitting in a hospital bed - all for the cost of a set of warmers or wets.

Wets last ages, you can get a couple of seasons out of them if used correctly. They are great fun, they make the racing better and safer and it's great to put your knee down in puddles. It's exciting to be watching the conditions and making the decision to change tyres right at the last minute and getting down to the holding area to see who has chosen what tyre - all part of racing, same as the big boys do.

If you want a cheap option, then leave class B as it is, but class A has moved on since the series began and is attracting racers to the series who are not 'Ducati' people and certainly not novices. For Class A I would go for full wets, warmers and ANY treaded tyre make.

As for cost, I would suggest most of the Class A boys and girls already have front and rear stands, they probably have warmers for their other track bikes and a set of wets will cost a little over a couple of hundred quid and last them at least a full season, probably more.

WeeJohnyB
PS - I suggested 748 racing ages ago - go for a 748 AND 749 series (same grid but choice of bike), stock bikes NO CHANGES except rear sets and race can - simples innit, no engine mods, no suspension mods, no arguements, no huge complex rule books, just take the mirrors off and race.

[antonye]

PS - I suggested 748 racing ages ago - go for a 748 AND 749 series (same grid but choice of bike), stock bikes NO CHANGES except rear sets and race can - simples innit, no engine mods, no suspension mods, no arguements, no huge complex rule books, just take the mirrors off and race.

Woohoo! Anyone got an ex-BSS 749RS for sale? ;)

[Ghost]

Brilliant well constructed criticism, from someone who knows.:)
Not keen on leaving class B as is tho' Matt Traynor is on a mission to win a class A race with a B bike, its possibly on the cards too. :eek:

[skidlids]

It's exciting to be watching the conditions and making the decision to change tyres right at the last minute and getting down to the holding area to see who has chosen what tyre - all part of racing, same as the big boys do.

Reminds me of the last crash I had in SoT caused by somebody trying to race on a damp track getting wetter by the minute on dry tyres, that hurt, caused damage to my bike that was on inters and didn't feel that safe to me



If you want a cheap option, then leave class B as it is, but class A has moved on since the series began and is attracting racers to the series who are not 'Ducati' people and certainly not novices. For Class A I would go for full wets, warmers and ANY treaded tyre make.

I can't remember sending that email yet, although it is already written, have you been hacking my PC :)



PS - I suggested 748 racing ages ago - go for a 748 AND 749 series (same grid but choice of bike), stock bikes NO CHANGES except rear sets and race can - simples innit, no engine mods, no suspension mods, no arguements, no huge complex rule books, just take the mirrors off and race.

Sold my 748 that I last raced in a SoT race at Silverstone at the end of 2004 so I could get myself a DD bike
Am I going around in circles :puzzled:

[WeeJohnyB]

cheap racing Ant:lol:

I'm thinking more like it should have had mirrors at sometime in it's life:lol:

Serious point though, the best ride on an RS will win, but the average rider on the RS will still be average - see point well made above re Class B bike winning a Class A race. I have been on track on my 748e and not been beaten on power by a 748r purely because of line and corner exit speed. I've ridden around the outside of a lot of 996R's in my time on my CB500. A well known story exists of a certain Monty on his ST4 with panniers on it riding around me on my 748 at Silverstone on one of my first trackdays.....never again old man:lol:

I ride with some of the No Limits instructors and can't believe what they can do with a motorbike compared to my crappy skills

WeeJohnyB

[MLC Racing]

[QUOTE=WeeJohnyB]:lol: The never-ending saga that is tyres in DD:lol:

The word safety is raised above and has been many times before and no doubt will be again. How can you tell me that it is 'safe' to ask a rider to ride to their limit and beyond in race conditions on a road tyre on a cold and wet March morning with no tyre warmers. Any racer will tell you it's madness, most wouldn't go out under such circumstances. In my first year in CB5's, wets were not allowed, but warmers were. I am by comparison to some of my lunatic competitors a fairly smooth rider, so I actually enjoyed the wet races on dry tyres as I knew I could beat others I normally wouldn't and that some of them would fall off. I have watched DD'ers tip toe around a corner in the wet and sat at The Hairpin and the Mountain at Cadwell watching good riders fall off and take others out with them.
What price 'cheap' racing when your bike is in bits, the guy next to you in the paddock's season is over because you took him out and you are sitting in a hospital bed - all for the cost of a set of warmers or wets.

QUOTE]

I have made this point before as well but we appear to be in the minority.

And if people feel there is no benefit in the use of tyre warmers why ban them?
I have no problem with the Pirelli's or the single tyre rule.
But it would be nice if at Pembrey at the end of September, they were up to temp. before the chequered flag.
Where people source them from is their own affair. Having Mark at Holbeach's services trackside is great and one thing less for me to worry about.


My concerns about a 748/9 class is that it has been done in SS600 or SOT or some other class that is not 'Ducati'. and it goes even further away from the 'cheap racing' phylosophy that fills the class B grid while the enthusiam for class A (Gucci) seems to be dwindling away.

[paynep]

You can always tell autumn is here - the nights start drawing in, the leaves start turning brown and the great DD tyre mass debate begins again.

[Imola Duke]

I got to grips this year with pushing it on the first lap and got over my cold tyre phobia :)

Sticky stuff did have HR Diablos for £134 free postage back in March.
They soon rocketed up in price when i posted a link on here......:mad:
Maybe Pirelli had a word......... :lol:

Just had a set of Maxxis Sports fitted to my 944 SS for £135 (fitted) at Bikers world whats good enough for
Guy Martin is good enough for me!

[MLC Racing]

You can always tell autumn is here - the nights start drawing in, the leaves start turning brown and the great DD tyre mass debate begins again.


Some people mass debate through all 4 seasons :lol:

[Chris Wood]

Anyone else like soup? Pea and ham for me!

My 748rs isn't going anywhere near you nut jobs on track!!!:lol:

[faith-healer]

....Sticky stuff did have HR Diablos for £134 free postage back in March.
They soon rocketed up in price when i posted a link on here......:mad:
Maybe Pirelli had a word......... :lol:

They were almost certainly given 'the hard word' Steve. I have a source for Diablos at £143 fitted to loose wheels. I said I would put a link on here and was asked not to as If I did supplies would probably "Dry Up"

I told a few people in the paddock and I know Phil (Ghost) got a pair mail order for about the same.

I am afraid that you have this wrong. It is not about a monopoly of supply (no one has insisted that you buy your tyres from Holbeech and I confirmed that I could order them from my local supplier on a 48hr basis this morning) it is about the tyres being used being "fit for purpose".

We have previously been informed by Pirelli (and I reconfirmed this at the begining of this season) that the Class A bikes (our most powerful) do not have enough power or weight to work the ZR tyre hard enough to get them up to operating temperature for safe racing under the conditions that we operate under at New Era events.

If the bikes had more than 90bhp and weiged more than 175kgs, then they would be recommending the ZR rated tyre - we do not meet either criteria.

Hopefully that will put this to bed once and for all.

It's not likely Chris....My supplier disputes the statement from Pirelli "Z rated were not suitable" as once they have started to warm up they retained that heat better due to the difference in construction (see Andy Shep's post). They also said that compounds had changed over the last few years and the Z's were now slighly softer and are fit for use ....for both classes.

Their recommended treaded, control tyre for DD, wet and dry, class A and B is the new Michelin Pilot One (soft front medium soft rear )

The company is owned by the most experienced race tyre supplier in the UK; and will be subject to the same liabilty issues that you have spoken of in the past.

....I was also told with Michelin now putting much of their MotoGP budget into club and national racing an early letter to Michelin UK 'could' get a very satisfactory result for all DD'ers.

BTW....You still owe Steve Klee (Imola Duke) 'a public apology' on here and on Ducatisti

One more thing....If you owned an tatty 1985 Ford Escort and wanted to buy a new car would you spend all your time trying to source a 'new' 1985 Ford Escort or buy an up to date, safer, more economical, comforable....get the picture

[Ghost]

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am afraid that your argument is flawed.

Both of the series that you mention do not run a road based control tyre. I understand they have the option to run wets so their tyre performance in colder/wet conditions is not an issue.

I have spoken to the Pirelli representative this morning and they have confirmed that the reason for the recommendation of the use of the HR rated tyre is to do with cold/wet weather running. In cold/wet weather with lower track temperatures an HR rated tyre will run at operating temperature apreciably more quickly than a ZR rated tyre, given the weight and performance of the bikes to which they are fitted - equally they will cope with dry hot conditions without any problems.

The suggestion is that an HR tyre will get to proper operating temperature in a couple of laps max - you can push it from the race start - on a ZR tyre you might need 2-3 racing laps to get them up to temperature on a cold/wet day and that has safety implications, after all you are racing from the moment the lights go out - who would wait for their tyres to get up to temperature?

Can we have a name for this Pirelli representative? As I have been unable to find anyone in Pirelli who will commit to such a comment.

[Chris Wood]

I'd like to know who shot JFK?

[paynep]

Does the whole Z or H rated issue become a bit of a non-issue as MY supplier - Micheldever Tyres - has advised me that their supplier tells them the "Pirelli don't make the H-rated Diablo anymore"?

Maybe we have to consider the use of a different tyre or manufacturer for 2010..............oh, hang on, I appear to have fallen through a wormhole in time....

[andys 900ss]

We've used 5 sets of tyres this season. I reckon class B's could get away with 3-4 sets a year. Anyone want to buy some second hand tyres? because thats what I'll be using this saturday.

I reckon we've spent more money on diesel and petrol for the bike.

We've got our tyres form all matter of sources, my local Honda dealer, Holbeach and Neil at Cornerspeed offered to get me some too but we'd brought them all. Never had a problem and you pays your money and get your tyres, done!

If the Rosso does get through on H then thats an excellent progression, but looking at the race times, these tyres fit the bill well and I have to agree about the Z's probably not good enough for wet or cold days. Model car racing used a set of tyres per race and it got silly....

See you all at the weekend for the last one ;)

Andy

[seicento]

I'd like to know who shot JFK?

Probably someone pushed over the edge thinking abput tyres!!!:lol:

They're black round and lets be honest no one makes a bad tyre any more,

"if it aint broke don't fix it"

[paynep]

I have to agree about the Z's probably not good enough for wet or cold days

Or us slowcoaches :lol:

[faith-healer]

We've used 5 sets of tyres this season. I reckon class B's could get away with 3-4 sets a year. Anyone want to buy some second hand tyres? because thats what I'll be using this saturday.

I reckon we've spent more money on diesel and petrol for the bike.

We've got our tyres form all matter of sources, my local Honda dealer, Holbeach and Neil at Cornerspeed offered to get me some too but we'd brought them all. Never had a problem and you pays your money and get your tyres, done!

If the Rosso does get through on H then thats an excellent progression, but looking at the race times, these tyres fit the bill well and I have to agree about the Z's probably not good enough for wet or cold days. Model car racing used a set of tyres per race and it got silly....

See you all at the weekend for the last one ;)

Andy


Just beause you're 2009 Class A Champion you think you know best.....


Errr!...Oh! :confused: Hang on a minute you probably do ;)


Congratulations mate a great season and well deseved:D :D :D

[nogaromill998]

Can we have a name for this Pirelli representative? As I have been unable to find anyone in Pirelli who will commit to such a comment.

Well neither can I. I spoke to the guy that was MD of Pirelli up to last year, and is now a Director of Competition Logistics, who provide Pirelli's racing service at BSB.....who I have known a number of years, plus Pirelli's own technical wizard in Germany.....I wont use the flowery language that the CompLog guy used, but basically, it was along the lines of

" Dont be stupid David, firstly, we would never recommend a ZR tyre then change our minds and say it is unsuitable.....in favour of an H rated tyre especially.....what idiot told you that ? "

And much the same was said from Germany too, and both denied that they would issue such utterences in writing anyway. Has anyone actually seen these letters?

[mjbayley]

Well neither can I. I spoke to the guy that was MD of Pirelli up to last year, and is now a Director of Competition Logistics, who provide Pirelli's racing service at BSB.....who I have known a number of years, plus Pirelli's own technical wizard in Germany.....I wont use the flowery language that the CompLog guy used, but basically, it was along the lines of

" Dont be stupid David, firstly, we would never recommend a ZR tyre then change our minds and say it is unsuitable.....in favour of an H rated tyre especially.....what idiot told you that ? "

And much the same was said from Germany too, and both denied that they would issue such utterences in writing anyway. Has anyone actually seen these letters?


30th September 1938, Munich:

"This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine (waves paper to the crowd - receiving loud cheers and "Hear Hears"). Some of you, perhaps, have already heard what it contains but I would just like to read it to you........................."

LOL............!!!!

[nogaromill998]

Call them yourself and ask Mark. I have nothing to hide and no axe to grind...and this has bugger all to do with tyres.....this is to do with an MT that bangs on ad nauseum about keeping costs down, and then takes the **** out of any suggestion to change to achieve PRECISELY what they keep banging on about. Its ok to spend £1000 on a rear shock, but you have to keep the std forks.....and use crappy road tyres claiming that the suppliers tell you they are the ones to use and when the people that have to buy them and use them ask to see this documentation, fail to produce it and go all quiet. I'm bloody glad I'm not riding in DD next year. Much as I love the paddock and everyone in it, the politics and organisational claptrap behind it is just complete ********. And I may be the only one to stick my neck on the block but there are a host of others that feel exactly the same way, so dont any of you kid yourselves that it's only me.

[antonye]

Can I make a suggestion here?

Anyone that wants to run different tyres to the current ones, simply has to do ONE thing:

Get a signed letter from the manufacturer stating that their tyres are suitable to use in racing, in both wet and dry weather, for the weight and power made by both classes of bikes.

Once you've got that letter, please come back and post up a copy as it will help us to decide which tyres are suitable for use and those which can be discounted. Until this happens, can I politely suggest that you all STFU about tyres? Kthxby.

[nogaromill998]

Ah, the letter, that must be similar to the one the powers that be consistantly cant/wont/refuse to make available to those that ride in DD mustnt it?
Well thats not a prob, I could have that letter available to compare with the one that Pirelli sent too........But you miss the point Antonye....this is NOT about tyres alone.........or do you assume what a post says rather than actually reading it?

[AK]

If the Rosso does get through on H then thats an excellent progression, but looking at the race times, these tyres fit the bill well and I have to agree about the Z's probably not good enough for wet or cold days. Model car racing used a set of tyres per race and it got silly....


Andy

Mate, we ran the ZR tyres on both ours from the beginning and you know how they went.
Also who remembers the epic domski and andy j battle in cold torrential rain at brands hatch in early april 2006 when they were banging farings for much of race 1 and never had a tyre issue and both were on the ZRs then.

[Chris Wood]

I'm keen for this post to be a new DD record.

1. I'm not sure the MT are banging on about keeping the costs down? It has been the ongoing principal in DD.

2. Crappy road tyres seem to have worked for a number of people over the years - Cobby, Andy, Matt T., etc,etc,etc,

3. As ever people can choose to spend what they like - within the agreed guidelines/rules, blah... Does my Corse Tshirt make me faster?

4. Rules have been reviewed/changed and agreed every closed season of DD.

5. Volunteer organisers seem to be doing OK, over the last 5 years.

6. People come, people go - thats life, stay if your happy, go if your not.

7. Is it broken?

In summary DD has been/is a great series with a great paddock atmosphere, long may it continue.

[antonye]

Ah, the letter, that must be similar to the one the powers that be consistantly cant/wont/refuse to make available to those that ride in DD mustnt it?

I've never been to Africa, but a lot of people tell me it's there and so I believe them...

Well thats not a prob, I could have that letter available to compare with the one that Pirelli sent too........But you miss the point Antonye....this is NOT about tyres alone.........or do you assume what a post says rather than actually reading it?

So what else is it about? Please feel free to make a list of points that you would like to see addressed and I shall respond to those too, but personally I was responding to your query about the letter of conformance from Pirelli.

[antonye]

Also who remembers the epic domski and andy j battle in cold torrential rain at brands hatch in early april 2006 when they were banging farings for much of race 1 and never had a tyre issue and both were on the ZRs then.

Ah yes, I remember that one *pats 3rd place trophy* :D

[NBs996]

Mate, we ran the ZR tyres on both ours from the beginning and you know how they went.
Also who remembers the epic domski and andy j battle in cold torrential rain at brands hatch in early april 2006 when they were banging farings for much of race 1 and never had a tyre issue and both were on the ZRs then.
Ah yes, I remember that one *pats 3rd place trophy* :D

[antonye]

Ah yes, I remember that one *pats 3rd place trophy* :D

*shakes fist at NickB for getting better start in first race* :D

[couchcommando]

What a whinging load of old bollox, why aren't those winning whinging ?

It's only racing if you don't like it don't enter, sounds so simple eh ?

:)

[antonye]

What a whinging load of old bollox, why aren't those winning whinging ?

It's only racing if you don't like it don't enter, sounds so simple eh ?

:)

The Voice of Reason! :lol:

[MLC Racing]

Ah, the letter, that must be similar to the one the powers that be consistantly cant/wont/refuse to make available to those that ride in DD mustnt it?
Well thats not a prob, I could have that letter available to compare with the one that Pirelli sent too........But you miss the point Antonye....this is NOT about tyres alone.........or do you assume what a post says rather than actually reading it?


Rules for DD are set by those who spend THEIR time constructively organising it, not whinging.
As Mr Couchie and Mr Woods appear to say we all have 2 choices.
If the tyres chosen for the series are not to your liking I'm sure another club can accommodate you!
If you don't like Marmite don't whine about on the Marmite forum.
Tell some one who gives a flying ####. Try peanut butter.

Those in the DD paddock are having fun hence the grids in difficult times are still some of the biggest in New Era.
Why do some people seem to want to try to **** things up by posting on a forum. Forums don't have any power to do anything.

Broke my elbow and coc6 at Pembrey on Sunday, the drugs and cider have taken their toll tonight.
Wanna rip someones arms off and beat them to death with the soggy ends.!!!
So if this offends...... #### off.

I'll be back next year if you'll have me, cos its fun and, for the most part, with pretty good folk.

[antonye]

I retract my earlier post, Dave is now the Voice of Reason!

GWS fella.

[Imola Duke]

Forums don't have any power to do anything.


Oh yes they DO! ;)

[Tonio600]

Oh yes they DO! ;)

Thank God, they don't :)

GWS Dave, and good post btw.