View Full Version : Not bad for an old smoker...
dunlop0_1
13-Mar-2011, 07:51
Eeeeee my poor old bike dyno'd at a wheezy 53 and 55 BHP. :(
Although as you know, it did managed 2 wins and came within a whisker of Mr Listers lap record.
Not bad for an old smoker eh. :D
Power is not everything people. :frog:
.
.Not bad for an old.smoker eh. :D
.
yea but the bike wasent to bad tho:lol:
You were taking no prisoners out there. I was doing 58s laps and you came past me like i was standing still!!
First and second for me with a measly 48bhp!
chris.p
13-Mar-2011, 08:46
Don't forget, it was an SAE not a DIN dyno.
Chris:burn:
steve41
13-Mar-2011, 09:12
Eeeeee my poor old bike dyno'd at a wheezy 53 and 55 BHP. :(
Although as you know, it did managed 2 wins and came within a whisker of Mr Listers lap record.
Not bad for an old smoker eh. :D
Power is not everything people. :frog:
Well done, sign of things to come for the year then. What was the results/places with the rest, and how did you find the tyres.
When I rode them last year they gave ore feel and allowed ore confidence pushing into the corners, they did not drop in like the Rosso's.
mat2hew
13-Mar-2011, 09:31
not bad cocker! you were in a different class this weekend mate.
Well done Dude!
Awesome Lawson the second! (again)
mat2hew
13-Mar-2011, 09:33
Don't forget, it was an SAE not a DIN dyno.
Chris:burn:
that was the DIN figure, I've really got to have words with myself because mine made 60!
bradders
13-Mar-2011, 09:34
Don't forget, it was an SAE not a DIN dyno.
Chris:burn:
I think the guy was converting them..mine was 46 then he said 'hold on you aremeasuring ....(missed what he said but may have been din) so 49'
hot engine, 18 laps of being hammered and no oil cololer...happy with that :D
dunlop0_1
13-Mar-2011, 11:06
Don't forget, it was an SAE not a DIN dyno.
Chris:burn:
Chris this means nothing to me? Explain please. :D
dunlop0_1
13-Mar-2011, 11:10
Well done, sign of things to come for the year then. What was the results/places with the rest, and how did you find the tyres.
When I rode them last year they gave ore feel and allowed ore confidence pushing into the corners, they did not drop in like the Rosso's.
Thanks Steve.
Tyres are superb, I really mean that. Only downside being that the test day and 2 races wrecked 2 rears. Gonna try a bit softer rear suspenion at Mallory test day.
Only one big slide which Kev Palmer will tell you all about. :D
dunlop0_1
13-Mar-2011, 11:14
not bad cocker! you were in a different class this weekend mate.
Well done Dude!
Awesome Lawson the second! (again)
Wouldn't have happened without knowing you where up my arse so to speak.:D
So in effect it's your fault I won. :lol:
Smellory could be a whole different ball game.
Eh, well done lad! :biaggi:
mat2hew
13-Mar-2011, 12:06
Wouldn't have happened without knowing you where up my arse
Firstly, I would like to make clear, That HAS NEVER / WILL NEVER happen/ed
So in effect it's your fault I won. :lol:
Secondly, Matt Larrett kept, and keeps saying it's my fault he beet me
Smellory could be a whole different ball game.
That's what I said last year after Brands and before I crashed at the second corner! :(
Doooooooode, Game on!
Matt
Tyres are superb, I really mean that. Only downside being that the test day and 2 races wrecked 2 rears. Gonna try a bit softer rear suspenion at Mallory test day.
Only one big slide which Kev Palmer will tell you all about. :D
Kev told me that only happened because you were trying to keep up with me through Clearways! ;)
By the way, my tyre was looking a little like yours by the end of the second race... but my 58.2s lap came on lap 14 of the second race, so they seem to grip no matter how bad they look.
mat2hew
13-Mar-2011, 12:24
but my 58.2s lap came on lap 14 of the second race, so they seem to grip no matter how bad they look.
what was my fastest time last year Ron, on the worst tyres ever to grace a DD bike
I would put it up here, but I havn't got time to look right now mate.
mat2hew
13-Mar-2011, 12:26
I think my fastest lap was near the end, I took it easy for the last couple of laps but just before that was my fastest lap
what was my fastest time last year Ron, on the worst tyres ever to grace a DD bike
I would put it up here, but I havn't got time to look right now mate.
You did a 58.9 on lap 5 of the second race.
Gbyte666
13-Mar-2011, 12:36
Nice one M8, some of the angles you were at when you came past dont suprise me your going through tyres and I heard about your sideways move:eek:
Craig
chris.p
13-Mar-2011, 13:45
Chris this means nothing to me? Explain please. :D
There are two types of Dynometer, I am not up on how they work, but to say that the SAE dyno reads Lower than a DIN Dyno.
Horsepower is a measurement of the engine's ability to perform work. One SAE
horse is the ability to lift 33,000 lbs one foot in one minute. One DIN
horse is the ability to lift 450000 kg one cm in one minute. For the same
power the SAE measurement is thus 98.629% of the metric DIN measurement.
As Bradders said, his reading was 46bhp in SAE and when converted to DIN bhp it was 49bhp, and as maths is not my best subject i will leave it to you to work out the DIN bhp from your 53 & 55bhp, if that is they where not converted to DIN.
Chris:burn:
skidlids
13-Mar-2011, 16:04
For the same power the SAE measurement is thus 98.629% of the metric DIN measurement.
As Bradders said, his reading was 46bhp in SAE and when converted to DIN bhp it was 49bhp, and as maths is not my best subject i will leave it to you to work out the DIN bhp from your 53 & 55bhp, if that is they where not converted to DIN.
Well I would ignore that figure as its not the same power measurement
Based on the figure of 98.629% you would need a SAE of 48.33 bhp to arrive at a DIN figure of 49 bhp
I will hopefully be provided with all the figures so I can see what if any ammendments need to be made to our rule book
From what i can work out the Parkitt Dyno reads in NET SAE J1349 spec which then needs converting to GROSS DIN 6270 spec
This conversion seems to be roughly 7.5% so multiply the figure the Dyno reads in by 1.075
My bike read around 55.6 BHP (SAE) add 7.5% to this and you get 59.77 bhp (DIN) the DIN Dyno I had it on last Tuesday measured it as 61.1bhp
My Class B Monster measured 45.52 SAE which converts to 48.93 DIN
I think you should post up all the results Kev... Should make interesting reading!
chris.p
13-Mar-2011, 17:55
Well I would ignore that figure as its not the same power measurement
Based on the figure of 98.629% you would need a SAE of 48.33 bhp to arrive at a DIN figure of 49 bhp
I will hopefully be provided with all the figures so I can see what if any ammendments need to be made to our rule book
From what i can work out the Parkitt Dyno reads in NET SAE J1349 spec which then needs converting to GROSS DIN 6270 spec
This conversion seems to be roughly 7.5% so multiply the figure the Dyno reads in by 1.075
My bike read around 55.6 BHP (SAE) add 7.5% to this and you get 59.77 bhp (DIN) the DIN Dyno I had it on last Tuesday measured it as 61.1bhp
My Class B Monster measured 45.52 SAE which converts to 48.93 DIN
Like I said, math's is not my strong point :(
Chris:burn:
dunlop0_1
13-Mar-2011, 18:11
I think you should post up all the results Kev... Should make interesting reading!
Absolutely.
Come on Kev what you hidding from us?
skidlids
13-Mar-2011, 19:05
I think you should post up all the results Kev... Should make interesting reading!
Firstly I haven't got any of the results yet other than my own
Secondly its not my place to tell other competitors what their competitors bikes are making without first getting the individuals permision to relay the information
Unless someone is caught in breach of the rules
My main concerns regarding the Dyno runs is firstly is anybody making more power than they should and if so will our rules allow us to do something about it
In our rules we mention corrected horsepower, but if the Parkitt Dyno reads either low or high we need to know
Based on the figures I was given for my class A bike it looks like it reads lower than Dave Woods Dyno in Aylesbury and from my discussions with Alan it looks like it reads pretty much the same as the BSD Dyno in Peterborough
Once I gather all the info I need we will look to see if any adjusting of the figures in the rules is necessary, after 8 or so bikes were tested we should have some decent information to go on
Well, you have my permission.
bradders
13-Mar-2011, 20:27
Well, you have my permission.
and mine :)
how much do you think is lost as the motor was hot then? Mine was difficult for the guy to start and ticking over at 2k revs plus so was a little frazzled
Firstly I haven't got any of the results yet other than my own
Secondly its not my place to tell other competitors what their competitors bikes are making without first getting the individuals permision to relay the information
I just hope my 51 BHP (with misfire) was UN-corrected!!! :lol: :confused:
Any results yet Kev? Mr Larrett peered over the guys shoulder at mine and I think he saw 48... But I'd like to know for sure. Also, if you don't want to put up individual results, could you just let us know the highest and lowest?
skidlids
15-Mar-2011, 17:14
Any results yet Kev?
Nope, Not even chasing them at the moment.
Don't even know when the Dyno guys will get them properly documented and sent to Bernie.
I'm nt sure how Bernie is set up computer wise, but I was planning on getting them off him when I meet up with him in April and hopefully have the revised figures ready for the rule book prior to the Mallory meeting.
Then we can hopefully test a few bikes at Mallory and see if anybody falls foul of the rules
If my initial calculations are right
we are probably looking at SAE maximum figures from the Parkitt Dyno of
50bhp for Class B
60bhp for Class A
With a tolerance of 0.5%
eg 49(SAE) + 7.5% = 52.65 (DIN) + 0.5% = 52.94 bhp DIN
eg 60(SAE) + 7.5% = 64.5 (DIN) + 0.5% = 64.8 bhp DIN
Edited to get the Class B figure right
...and if anyone was tested higher than that at Brands will they lose their points?
bradders
15-Mar-2011, 19:23
...and if anyone was tested higher than that at Brands will they lose their points?
#if they were they should take a trophy!! After that race I'm surprised many made 50bhp as engines were so hot, especially without an oil cooler
bloke said to me mine was 3rd most powerful of those tested, dont know if that included A class or just B but thnk it was all bikes...not bad for an old road bike with just a jet kit & filter ;)
#if they were they should take a trophy!! After that race I'm surprised many made 50bhp as engines were so hot, especially without an oil cooler
bloke said to me mine was 3rd most powerful of those tested, dont know if that included A class or just B but thnk it was all bikes...not bad for an old road bike with just a jet kit & filter ;)
Think mine made 50.02 SAE which is high 53's DIN
bradders
15-Mar-2011, 19:56
Think mine made 50.02 SAE which is high 53's DIN
jeez, sounds very good especially if hot after the race, not that I know much (only what others tell me!) but hot engine can lose what, 5% or more of power?
expect mine on a warm run would be 51ish if 49 hot
Sounds like there will be a lot of people losing points ;)
bradders
15-Mar-2011, 20:20
Sounds like there will be a lot of people losing points ;)
who knows what values come out and how/when do you measure? If at the end of the race, power will be down even if only a little so do you say its its aboce XXbhp, which is on or just under the class limit, it has to be tested again later when cooler and if over, is it disqualification?
could get messy, espcially with dynos reading lost of differnt things!!!
If there is a specified limit and someone is over it, doesn't that disqualify them? And if someone is over at the end of a race with a hot engine, then they will only be more over with a cooler engine.
(just playing Devils advocate)
...and I don't believe it would be right to raise the limit after the start of the season (if that is being considered).
However, you are right Bradders, because how exact a science is dyno testing? Unfortunately, it is written into the rules that we will be tested against a defined limit.
Gbyte666
15-Mar-2011, 20:39
[quote=bradders
bloke said to me mine was 3rd most powerful of those tested, ;)[/quote]
Hmmmm ;)
Craig
skidlids
15-Mar-2011, 22:12
...and if anyone was tested higher than that at Brands will they lose their points?
No Ron they won't as the Dyno used was an unknown quantity
But any bikes that did come out high will be first on the list for testing at the next available session and subject to the SAE figures and conversion figures generated by the Brands Dyno testing.
I ammended my earlier post and as far as the Parkitt Dyno goes we will probably be looking at a Class A figure of 60bhp (SAE) and a Class B figure of 49bhp (SAE)
I say probably as there is no intention of changing the stated limits in the rules which are Dynoject corrected DIN figures of 65bhp for Class A and 53bhp for Class B. Its just a matter of making sure the correct figures are used and applied to everyone
Most Dynos read slightly different from each other to be on the safe side your better off with one that reads slightly high, others will be quite accurate and the remainder will read slightly low, these are the ones that could land you in trouble, as you could have more power than you think and when tested at the track fall foul of the rules
When the figures were incorporated into the rules they were considered a fair amount of horsepower that should be acheiveable by many and although money and a good tuner could get you more the series is not about who can afford the best tuner its about being the best racer and having a even and fair playing field
as the rules say
***Dyno Testing – when available the intention will be to Dyno test the top 3 finishers in each class and a few at random, if tested after race 1 you will not be tested again after race 2 instead the next highest finisher shall be tested.
Dyno testing is carried out at the bike owners risk and refusal to be tested will result in disqualification from the results for that meeting***
As such Dyno testing will take place on hot engines and if anybody is getting their bike setup on a Dyno it makes sense to get the jetting/fueling suited to a hot engine as its a race bike and will be expected to run hot.
It doesn't matter what it makes when its cold as thats not how they will be tested and I for one wouldn't want my bike run up on a dyno for full power runs without a bit of pre-warming
bradders
15-Mar-2011, 22:44
It doesn't matter what it makes when its cold as thats not how they will be tested and I for one wouldn't want my bike run up on a dyno for full power runs without a bit of pre-warming
why run an oil cooler if it doesnt make much difference? I'm thinking of the difference between warm - start of race - and steaming - end of race
i dont have one fitted, but have one to go on, and if it doesnt drain the power when hot then i wont bother, if hovere after 4/5 distance I'm losing 5% or more power I will....and most seem to have then fitted
skidlids
16-Mar-2011, 00:34
why run an oil cooler if it doesnt make much difference?
Who said that, certainly wasn't in anything I typed above
Define warm and Hot
Even with an oil cooler my bike gets hot, just not as hot as it would without one and as such it will not have as much of a power loss with the cooler as without it.
Engines have an optimum running temperature which is what your trying to acheive with a oil cooler, air ducting etc, and ideally thtas the temp you should have your bike up to when running it on a dyno especially if your seting fueling
From what I could see of my oil temp gauge my bike was running a lot cooler in race two than it did in race one, not suprising as the air temp had dropped.
If it had been really cold I probably would have covered part of the oil cooler,
Maybe you have noticed that some racers cover part of their radiators when the air temp drops right down, I wonder why that could be ? could be that to cold an engine isn't ideal, maybe they are trying to get to that optimum operating temperature.
So at the end of race two was my bike warm or hot ? I'm pretty sure it was warm before the RED lights went out at the start of the race
and if it was hot then what was it at the end of race one ? Hotter !!
Gbyte666
16-Mar-2011, 01:09
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7978/jedibradders.jpg (http://img864.imageshack.us/i/jedibradders.jpg/)
Craig
bradders
16-Mar-2011, 07:23
FPMSL
glad I just finished my coffee or it would be all over my netbook
No Ron they won't as the Dyno used was an unknown quantity
But any bikes that did come out high will be first on the list for testing at the next available session and subject to the SAE figures and conversion figures generated by the Brands Dyno testing.
I ammended my earlier post and as far as the Parkitt Dyno goes we will probably be looking at a Class A figure of 60bhp (SAE) and a Class B figure of 49bhp (SAE)
I say probably as there is no intention of changing the stated limits in the rules which are Dynoject corrected DIN figures of 65bhp for Class A and 53bhp for Class B. Its just a matter of making sure the correct figures are used and applied to everyone
When the figures were incorporated into the rules they were considered a fair amount of horsepower that should be acheiveable by many and although money and a good tuner could get you more the series is not about who can afford the best tuner its about being the best racer and having a even and fair playing field
as the rules say
***Dyno Testing – when available the intention will be to Dyno test the top 3 finishers in each class and a few at random, if tested after race 1 you will not be tested again after race 2 instead the next highest finisher shall be tested.
Dyno testing is carried out at the bike owners risk and refusal to be tested will result in disqualification from the results for that meeting***
But you are using the results from Brands to "calibrate" readings. If this calibration exludes some machines tested as over-powered, surely they should be exluded from the results? Or will they just get exluded from future results? That is assuming there are people that were tested over the equivalent 53bhp.... but if they were, surely a line should be drawn and the exlusion start from day one?
btw, I don't know if anyone was tested over. As I say, I think mine was 48-49 (presumably the lower of the DIN/SAE figures, so equivalent to about 52ish adjusted?). I just think it would be useful if we knew where we stand, what calibrated dyno figure is the equivalent of our limit, and if there is any tolerance on that. For example, let us say it is 50bhp (unajusted), with a tolerance of +1?, so anyone testing over 51+bhp is disqualified. Because if Bradders was 50, a minor variation in contitions could see him creep over 50 (if that was the non-adjusted limit), but I don't think it would be fair to exlude him at 50-51, because it could just be tolerance in the test.
I know you haven't had time to properly look at it, but I think it would be useful to lay out the intentions of the test over the next few weeks so there are no surprises at Mallory.
bradders
16-Mar-2011, 11:57
Because if Bradders was 50, a minor variation in contitions could see him creep over 50 (if that was the non-adjusted limit), but I don't think it would be fair to exlude him at 50-51, because it could just be tolerance in the test.
was adjusted at 49 - 46 ish SAE ;)
and no one is taking my points over Craig without a fight!! :lol: :lol:
was adjusted at 49 - 46 ish SAE ;)
and no one is taking my points over Craig without a fight!! :lol: :lol:
Sorry Bradders. The bike wasn't important anyway, just the intention.
bradders
16-Mar-2011, 12:20
:lol: dont need to apologise...it had 60 really but as you can see I influenced the dyno man with advanced use of Midi-chlorians
:lol: dont need to apologise...it had 60 really but as you can see I influenced the dyno man with advanced use of Midi-chlorians
Skids... we need a new rule about mind control....
mat2hew
16-Mar-2011, 12:38
if a bike has no illegal parts and no illegal modifications, is it possible for it to be over the limit? and if it was, what could you do about it?
if a bike has no illegal parts and no illegal modifications, is it possible for it to be over the limit? and if it was, what could you do about it?
Quite right, dyno's and conditions can easily have a difference of 3 to 5 bhp for me at least 3 bikes should be checked and the average used. One or two bhp gain is not going to put you on the top step, its all about bottle in the corners and braking. Jimbo has not touched his in 2 years prob way down on power but he rode the arse off it.
Quite right, dyno's and conditions can easily have a difference of 3 to 5 bhp for me at least 3 bikes should be checked and the average used. One or two bhp gain is not going to put you on the top step, its all about bottle in the corners and braking. Jimbo has not touched his in 2 years prob way down on power but he rode the arse off it.
I think about half the bikes were tested? Must have been at least 5 or 6. Skids will know. Jimbo didn't seem down on power judging by how he pulled down the straights. Every bit as fast as Kev's bike.
I agree with everything said Phil. My point is, what are the results going to be used for? So, we get an average (or even a highest figure)... What do we do with it? As it happens, i don't think there are any illegal bikes, but I'm trying to work out the point of even bothering to stress the bikes on a dyno after a race if we have no limit or any intention of excluding anyone based upon any testing. If the intention is to exclude people based upon a figure determined from the Brands test, then I would like to know what it was and how my bike compares to it.
There were also a few other people like myself that put their bike on the Dyno before the racing. So there should be a good sample to understand how it compares to other Dynos.
The competitors who had their bikes tested should be told the results of their bikes. Is there a ceiling for where the bike is reved to? I would hate anyones bike to suffer an issue on the Dyno.
I feel sure this will sort itself out at Mallory.
Mark.
:)
Just a point to how futile this dyno business is, how many class A bikes were behind the class B bikes with circa 10 plus more ponies.
Just a point to how futile this dyno business is, how many class A bikes were behind the class B bikes with circa 10 plus more ponies.
Where as some had enough power to rip apart chains! (sorry Phil!)
Where as some had enough power to rip apart chains! (sorry Phil!)
PMSL very good
mat2hew
16-Mar-2011, 17:48
at the moment the rules state a maximum BHP, the rules are the rules are they not?
at the moment the rules state a maximum BHP, the rules are the rules are they not?
Very possibly Matt, but how would you feel if you had yours dyno'd at your favourite tuning shop & its right on the button for max hp.
You win your race and the circuit dyno says its over the max allowed by a good margin, your disqualified.
5% inaccuracies/descrepancies are the norm not 0.5%, as has been mentioned.
I tend to agree Phil. If so, what is the point of testing or having a bhp limit? The rules disallow tuning that would get you over the stated figures, so just check there are no mods against the rules rather than flogging an already stressed bike on a dyno. That is kind of the point I'm getting at. If we can't decide on a limit or tolerance, then we won't disqualify anyone, so why even bother testing?
I would be interested to see everyones results though.
Is there a ceiling for where the bike is reved to? I would hate anyones bike to suffer an issue on the Dyno.
:)
The bottom ends (being basically the same as the 4 valvers) should all run to 10k without undue stress, and as the carb'd engines run out of usable power above 7500rpm, and the injected bikes not much over 8500k, there shouldn't be any reason to run higher than 9k on a dyno run ....
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