14 finishers of 30 entries
 

I've always been on side of keeping tyres as they are but am starting to wonder if we should consider wets and see what everyone thinks about it now-

a season with rain at all meetings in an otherwise decent summer and a race with only 14 finishers out of 30 paid entries do seem to sway things a bit, at least in my mind- a set of tyres is gonna cost a lot less than last weekend did

maybe a meeting of everyone and a count of the for and against?:confused:

Does it, the fastest Class A guys I noticed going around in the Wet were Tim Sayers and Mike Burke, Tim crashed in Saturdays race early on when the track LOOKED more dry than wet and was caught out but it didn't slow him down any in Sunday's wetter race and Mike was fast in all conditions, others may have fallen off going slower than them but surely that's not the fault of the tyres.

Same goes for Class B with Jim Brian taking two wins in less than ideal conditions and a third in the dry race, again the only person lapping faster than him on Saturday was Mark Hamilton who like Tim crashed in Race 1 yet got a podium in the wetter Sunday race. Again riders were falling or having moments at slower speeds so again how can it be the fault of the tyres.

No matter what your riding on you push them to the maximum the conditions allow, over step the mark and your often off or given a wake up call.

I enjoy riding on wets and have several sets along with the spare wheels, discs, tools and ability to change them quickly but I still think its a bad idea for DD

Wets - Things to Consider

Are there less crashes or the same amount at higher speed,
There were 50 crashes in Saturdays endurance race across all the classes and they can all use wets and warmers.

Race two was red flagged 3 times and had to be run at a later time with riders seriously injured in a class with both wets and traction control is allowed

The price of spare wheels, discs and the wets
The tools and ability to change tyres at short notice

Which make wets and therefore which Brand of dry tyre
and what effect will this have on price

Possibility of other bikes/classes on the same grid as DD
And therefore the possibility of the loss of money from Ducati Insurance for the TV coverage.

By the way Trudi has informed me she is stepping down as riders rep at the end of this season and I'm still waiting to hear who has put themseleves forward as the technical manager of the series.

So come on folks step up and get involved in sorting out all the issues

And here is a clip from the final Moto Grande 1000 race of the weekend
Jonathan Lodge (also race British Superstock 1000 and has raced British Supersport) on his ZX10R with wets and traction control, having already won a coupe of races over the weekend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujx6...ature=youtu.be

If wets are allowed into DD then to be competitive you will need 2 bikes, with a wet and a dry set up otherwise you will be at a disadvantage to those that can afford two bikes when it rains just before we get called (which seems to happen a lot). This for me is not in the spirit of DD

In the short time I have been involved this debate has gone full circle over and over again and each time the same conclusion is reached.

If its wet there will always be more accidents whether you are racing with wets or our road tyres but if you crash with wets you will be crashing at a higher speed.

The one tyre rule is fundamental to keeping DD affordable.

Sad to hear Trudi is stepping down

Nah, you don't need two bikes. I raced in DD class C on my 996 2012. Two sets of wheels ( wets and inters ) When it was bone dry we all put drys on when it was wet wet we put wets on and when it was neither of either we all made our own choice. Many a time the Classic superbike grid had half the grid on wets and half inters/slicks. We then all rode to the ability of the tyres. Yea we crashed in the wet and dry Derrr its racing :-) Look at moto GP last weekend and wet and dry choice :-)
I don't think any of the class C had two bikes
I raced in DD class A / DD class B and DD class C and I have to say I enjoyed C the most and the biggest reason was being able to use wets. I was Dallas No2 in Class A and B ( wet wasted weekend ) my choice to race in a control tyre series but in C I went out every race wet or dry. But at least it looked like a race rather than a parade of people trying stay upright.
Kev, the fastest guys. well yes all 2 of them and how fast would they have been on wets, they would have pushed both tyres
Cost of tyres, hmmm how much to go to Knockhill ? drop the round ( ok under current rules ) and buy wheels and tyres. Race entry/Test day/Petrol bike & Van/food etc
I'm not a DD member any more so I can not vote but I wanted to share my experience and personal thoughts on this matter and I do think people are being mislead by some of the reasons no to go to wets.

But at the end of the day if you sign up for a series that races on a controlled road tyre then there is no moaning on the day and if every signed up DD member has been balloted for the last few years and its still no then you cant argue the success of DD over the last what 8 years or more ? One of the bigger grids most weekends.

Craig

Class 1C with its two entrants and only run for one year isn't much of a recomendation. And to suggest I was taking part in a parade at the weekend is very misleading. I probably had my bike out of shape more in one race at Donington than all of the three dry races at Pembrey. I've spent 7 seasons racing across 5 classes where I could use wets with a best result of 6th overall in the NGRRC SoT championship so don't go thinking I haven't been there. But for DD I don't think its the way to go

ar wets....

for me the only thing to add is the race was cut short because of the weather, it was raining and deemed too dangerous to race...or so the paddock story went.

I can tell you PR4's are awesome in the wet, but still no where near as good as wets, and a load better than the Dunlops. But...wets mean faster speeds and more competitive actions. Great for the spectator, great for the racers who keep it upright, not so for the faster crashes.

But, you can't compare the results on the bigger bikes, maybe look at how mini twins and CB cup manage in the wet..more or less accidents?

Either way, the key point missed here is it looks like the two Kev's and Trudi are off this season: so what happens then and who will pick up the reigns?

Which race was that
i was told Saturdays race was red flagged as riders weren't slowing under yellows demonstrated by two of them taking to the Gravel while the Marshalls were trying to recover Alan Ball's bike from the curb on the exit of Macleans just where you exit when on the racing line

Sundays race was also red flagged and after the flags came out and I cirulated the track slowly on the way to the Pit entry I found myself heading straight at the Marshalls recovering Simon Allen's bike in the Melbourne loop hairpin, not a issue at the speed I was going but would have been under race conditions.

Probably deemed Dangerous for the Marshalls to recover fallen bikes from dangerous positions

the Saturday race, and never heard of a red flag because people agent slowing down.

If people tare overtaking on yellows, penalise them post event not every one in race

Penalising after doesn't help if a marshall gets seriously injured or if a rider does if the bike is left in their path

good point, but never heard of that before.

altho time was short

How so The Endurance could have started aa late as 2pm
As it was it started around 15 mins after our race was declared at around 13:45
When it was red flagged I had just stsrted my 6th lap. So around another 7 minutes would have got me to the chequered flag. Mike Burke would have finished a lot sooner. So even if we dis go full race distance there was still time to spare to start the Endurance.

Out of all that is that all you could comment on, my post was not about no one else entered C, we still had a grid of 4 classes ( bit like A & B ) and you have watched the TV of wet races of Hottrax and seen that DD is a lower number parade compared to the rest of the entry's. As for recommendation, I think it is. We are both saying we have raced where we could use Wet or limited to Road tyre. And I'm saying choice for me is better. No Idea where my 1 year racing period on wet/dry becomes an invalid opinion? after my 3 yrs racing in DD A/B on controlled road tyres.
Don't want to upset you Kev as you are a top bloke in my books but that rattled me ( rattled used instead of f*cked me off ) that my opinion is invalid just because C only raced for 1 yr. I still whooped some MaxiTwins / Superbikes and Supercups and I'm saying I've done both and I like the choice and my personal opinion is choice of wets for DD is better.

Craig

More fundamental than what rubber we use- there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes keeping everything going- what are we doing to stop the inevitable rapid demise of DD without the 3 key figures sorting stuff?

Agree Miles.

The wets debate will continue until wets are used, the. It wont be a debate any more. Surprised at the dig at Craig, and actually as someone who would not go out in damp to not only race in the wet (and used the, even when patches of damp not wet) but enjoy the wet, as a relative novice in real terms as most of us still are even now, it is extremely relevant.

Everyone in DD knew the rules when they signed up and those rules are there to make it a budget starter series.

It's in everybody's interest to keep the series running and in good health otherwise the money we've all invested in our little 600s will be wasted as they are unlikely to be competative in any other series and not easily sold on.

All this talk about wets let's not forget we are currently running on a tyre that is no longer in production and with out a control tyre whether that be one that does everything or drys and wets, I think the series will be worse off.

If DD is a starter/budget series how about a tyre capable both in the dry and wet for class B the same for class A but with an option of a more focused dry tyre this way newbies to class B don't have the worry or expense of having a second set of wheels but those in class A can choose to have a spare set of wheels with some stickier rubber for the sunny dry races. This way speed differential would not be too great either.

Think not what DD can do for you but what you can do for DD

I do seem to have started something here. I basically have no bones with any point anyone has made.
Agreed we are nowhere if no one can do what kevs and trudi do next year, agreed we signed up to the rules in the beginning, agreed we are good having the control tyre/ our own grid and any sponsors that come with those.

My point was only that not many enjoy wet races on our tyres and wondered if of a control combo of a wet and a sports road tyre deal from one manufacturer may be a possibility as long as a clear majority of both A and B class riders preferred this route. It's not just about falling off or not it's also about how much you're enjoying it. I'm not big into rules generally but have no real beef with any of our's and have never whined about wets before. Rules should only evolve if all can agree it's for better.

The cost need not be so great- most have spare wheels already- a set of wheels can be well under £100 and a set of wets could cover most or all of season if you were lucky. No warmers will be needed still. The scenario often faced of choice between racing on worn out vs not scrubbed tyres in wet sucks. I also think that the practice days where we're mixed in with others on wets running a totally different pace does make it feel a whole lot worse than it probably is.

A point to consider maybe a big part of problem with tyres in wet is as much to do with "set-up" as actual tyres. The difference between forces involved in wet/dry on same tyre are greater than they would be if grip level was higher therefore difference in suspension requirements is greater. The chances of getting working setting from same bike are probably better with wets. Bikes are set primarily for dry and there is rarely time to change them enough to get the kind of feel that would make them feel nice in the wet.

At the end of day i'm just sharing some ongoing ideas not moaning or bitching!!

I must admit I just cant make my mind up with this.

I really enjoy the wet races on these tyres and my best results and races have been all in the wet conditions. However, the argument that riders have an inability to change a set of wheels is quite insulting, there are many great engineers in the DD paddock so this doesn’t hold any weight. As for cost, that’s a poor argument too. The top bikes appear to spend quite a few pounds on getting them to standard, so a little more for a set of wets on wheels can't be used either.

I don't enjoy riding in the wet on any tyres. Too many years commuting in the rain have left me really bored of getting wet.

Miles - simple answer - people need to step-up and continue the great work that Trudi Kev and Kev have put in over the years.

"Ask not what your club can do for you - ask what you can do for your club"

Blatant plagiarism for a Friday afternoon ;)

Are you packing racing in Kevs?? Hope not.

Not yet, I will continue in DD and see which direction it goes in then if it still feels like DD I'll continue, but if it starts to feel like every other race series I may look at doing something else

Being a gobby **** who doesn't mind upsetting people (a shock to some I know), I've considered doing the rider's rep thing as I'll be doing all 2014 and trying to do all the meets thereafter. Will have to have a chat with Trudi about it before putting my name in the hat though.

But who do we have that can/is willing to do Skids' techno bit, Ghostie has been mentioned but does he know he has?

Scott your not allowed to upset people, just expected to ignore the crap and say nothing

scott none of want to see you in boots and hotpants (I hope I can assume I speak for everyone on that)

It'll have to be the Mankini then following on where Kev P left off, I think its a Pink one next

After reading all this debate people will understand why we have decided to step away . over the years Trudi has done a good job i think that s just my biased opinion anyway she has had many debates with riders and officials over the years but this year she was verbally abused bye a rider twice now which is what has made her mind up to leave, thank you to all the riders that came and apologised to her on his behalf .who ever decides or is decided to take the role on i wish you luck you need to be thick skinned its better if it is not a rider but some one looking in from the side lines , so can see things from both sides .

A very sad post Kev. What have we become shouting at Trudie? I thought we were all gentlemen racers. Apparently not.

Thick skinned about sums it up Kev. Onward and upward :)

Thing is Paul as you know the riders rep is there for you to talk to and to voice your opinion to right people not for you to go and abuse because your pi55ed off
if your feeling that strongly its best just to go straight to the top and speak to the Clark of the course , the guy that makes the final decisions :mad:

I've always stayed out of the wets debate, I always liked the odd wet race, even on road tyres, when I bought my class A bike I also bought a set of Wets and a spare set of wheels as it was the end of the season and I had booked every single race in a 1 day event in November at Donington, it didn't rain and I had a brilliant day I raced my 620 monster in all classes even in the 1000's and finished about 2/3s down the order, I took my unused wets home with me.

After booking track day at my local (Brands) I was looking forward to the forecast rain just so that I could test the wets for the first time, which I did, in all honesty I didn't notice much difference, it was the first time I'd ridden a dd bike on wets, maybe I didn't go fast enough to warm them up or something but I didn't notice much.

I have got a photo of me on my 999s on wets at druids hairpin with my knee planted firmly down but I only rode that in the wet once maybe the extra power helps? and I don't think it was that wet or a particularly slippery day.

I am at a point in my life/racing career, 6 years racing in DD, where I wouldn't mind racing with wets, but if I'm honest when I was first thinking about racing, a stage that everybody must be at at some point, racing on road tyres and not having wets was one of the draws of DD over other classes, every thing was new and confusing and it was one less thing to worry about, I thought I'd buy a bike and come race it, the end.

I do remember a trackday me and Neal Catlin did at mallory, I had the slicks on and it was raining when we arrived so I missed the first session, Neal missed it as well having stayed in to help me change the wheels, I didn't have spare discs so had to change them as well, then it dried up and we both missed the 2nd session as well and just before the 3rd session guess what? I left the unridden 999s in the paddock and rode the DD bike all afternoon.

so,

do I want wets? Maybe.
is it right for DD? not sure.

Kev E Kev P and Trudi, Please don't leave us, my life would not have been as good without you guys in it.

Matt

Well said. I agree with all that. Especially the last statement.

I think the consideration over wets has opened a much more important debate, the future of DD! This is also compounded by the very sad news of the people who do the most for the series are considering standing down.
Like many others, I joined the series because it is accessible (especially for novices), friendly, comparatively cheap with big competitive grids. My fear is that going to wets possibly changes things to an extent where it is not that different from other race series and the DD grids would just get smaller.
Another consideration is that if we were on wets, the argument that we should be on our own for safety reasons does not apply any more, and then we could find ourselves out with other classes!
From riders far better qualified than myself it seems that opinion is divided over the technical merits of going to wets, but if there is any possibility that allowing wets in DD puts the future of the series at risk I am completely opposed!
Finally, those people who have tirelessly worked on keeping this fantastic series running for 10 years need our support, so as one of a great many in the paddock who are just happy with how things are (and therefore do not usually make much comment) I would like to fully support the fantastic work being done on our behalf, and please stay on.

PS. This is not meant to stifle healthy debate, just a note of caution and my personal support

An excellent point made.

Suppose we go with wets, why would a potential newbie spend £2500 on a 15yr old DD bike, plus the additional costs of a set of wheels (at an inflated cost due to supply and demand), generator for warmers (no brainer that they would be next) to be put on track against modern classics (for example) which have twice the power and far greater acceleration and speed? Yes we would still be racing in our own class but even the best DD riders would get lapped by a decent bloke on a CBR600.

Or we stay as we are and the newbie goes for a £900 class B with no extra cost. With wets we'd be just another race series, as we are we're a one-off with low budgeting as a huge plus point.

IMHO the 2 Kevs and Trudi want to stay with us but without the 5h1t they've had to endure recently, I hope they stay even if just to advice their successors. It's safe to say without them DD wouldn't be here now and defo wouldn't be the same without them

Well put Scott, on all points.

cost is a red herring. You can pick up a part worn set for next to nothing and don't need warmers. Having discussed this a lot with seasoned racers and really experienced guys, thats my mind made firmly up.

But, the issue is not wets; its whether anyone will pick up the reigns and keep it going...or does it mean it becomes a Hottrax product and the end of DSC led series

for racers with a little experience it isn't too daunting a prospect I know, but for complete newbies it might be, in my first year of racing I spent so much money on **** that people told me I needed.

Well they were right Matt it got you to the front and wining races & those crash bungs just paid for themselves :-)

Craig