Cadwell TD - Idiots, sunshine and ladies! - RESPONSE.
 

Just got back from a TD at Cadwell recently and I thought I'd comment on the fact that its probably the worst one I've ever been to.
I was really looking forward to trying my trackbike around Cadwell for the first time but that all changed after the first session; I'm used to being blown away by faster bikes in the Inters group but being passed by someone traveling 30-40 mph faster ONLY 6 INCHES AWAY into a corner is just total disrespect for anyone on the track. Needless to say there was a faller in the second session and the inters group was called in for a 'talking to' and rightly so.
I'd go as far as to say its the first time I've actually felt unsafe on a trackday - thankfully the last session before dinner was a good one as I just sat at the back from the start and rode a little better, so the looneys didnt get anywhere near me.

Sunshine...good old Cadwell - it really must have its own microclimate...misty start on the morning - glorious sunshine all day long and then a torrential downpour just one hour after the TD finished, it just does not get any better.

Ladies - ok good and bad as well so lets get the bad out of the way. lady rider - fireblade - I saw her cut someone up going into the chicane and also overtaking (or just not paying any notice) to a yellow flag before an incident had been reached !!!!

Good - a Lady R6 rider who I started meeting 'under the trees' - LOL - at the back of the group e.g. to let everyone else out before us. She was really good in my opinion, learning the track well and nailing the throttle just when it should be. She said I was the first person to have chatted to her before going out on the track and even thanked me for doing so!!! Perfect excuse for making a friend when going onto the track then guys!

One very curious thing that I will be writing to the organiser about is that from the holding area - ALL the riders were let out onto the track at once, instead of sending riders out in batches of 10 or so - or even just splitting the group in half and sending them out 30 seconds apart or so - given the bunching and overtaking that was taking place - I think sending everyone out together added to the problems of the day and didnt ease them.

But I still LOVE Cadwell and will be back again !!!

Frank

[Edited on 15-9-2005 by Iconic944ss]

Doesn't sound too good Frank - who was the organiser?

Tracktime were actually the organisers and apart from the last comment did a first class job during the day. I have a feeling the problems on track were caused by either locals who knew the track or a bunch of riders who could not initially get into the fast group!

How did you find the briefing Frank?

Serious question ...

I fully expected the briefing to be in the club house (as per the DSC TD last year) - but it was held outside in the holding area - I must admit I thought this was an unprofessional start due to the noise of tractors and other goings on, I know I certainly found it difficult to concentrate on the briefing.
All the basics were covered but were too many 'light-hearted' comments in my opinion and while no one wants potentially uninteresting talk made worse - it is a serious subject and deserves full attention.

if this is Phil from Tracktime Promotions then he has quite a polarising personality from what I can gather. I've never been on one of their days personally but I've read a lot of stuff on other forums about people who have been less than happy with him, particularly his briefings. But also read about people that defend him to the hilt.

It may be harsh but I've decided not to use them after reading about some of the stuff that people I know have experienced with him. I'd much rather go with No Limits - which sounds weird as I've only ever done one day with them but the only reason I haven't done any with them this year is because their dates don't seem to align with my needs very well. I've been doing FE days which I think are improving but ... could be better.

i have been lucky with the organisers at the trackdays i have been on, nothing near to some of the horror stories i have seen on the net.

i do wish they would use a script for the breifings as they vary too much in quality and length. so of them drone on for ages without giving any useful information

the problem with riders clearly in the wrong groups is very difficult for the organiser to prevent, i have asked on some trackday for them to watch someone and they have usually talked to them or moved them to a different group

One idea we kicked about that I thought of (coming from an industry background) is that of a card system that we have for people who have completed so many induction sessions to work on a hazardous site - the spin off here being that time could be saved with the basics for some groups by maybe having a photo ID card to prove that a rider had attended maybe 6 trackdays previously and would only need telling of perculiarities just for that circuit/day???

TP, it was indeed Phil himself who delivered the briefing.

I've written to him to ask why the briefing was outside (as I think we had quite a few more peeps present last year) and also about the group issue.

I'll post his reply when I get it.

Frank

I've not been on a Tracktime day (yet), but I don't like the sound of all the riders out in a bunch. I've done Cadwell seveal times with No Limits and twice with Focussed Events (an evening and a full day). In my opinion, NO Limits briefing is excellent. FE briefing was .. different. They STARTED with talk of photos, on bike video etc, before even mentioning marshall and flags. Very strange. They (FE) also let the riders out 2 at a time so you are all spread around the track. Not sure if that is better or worse to be honest, I could argue it both ways.

Bottom line is, I'd do either FE or No LImits again, preference being No Limits. In fact, I'm at Cadders on Monday 19th Sept with No Limits (£89 to DSC members) if anyone fancies joining us.

Ive just done silverstone with f events and found i lost attention in the briefing ( not a good idea in all honesty) did seem to drag on a bit but did cover all the things you need to know. there was also far too many people in the groups ( 70 at a time ) but the 2 out at a time was good although by the time i had completed my first lap i was passing people just leaving the pits so it still got a bit cramped on track.

think my next one will be a no limits day at donington so will see what the difference is

Phil (otherwise known as the little Hitler) at Tracktime doesn't get a good word very often, I've done plenty of days with TTP over the years, but the briefing is a royal pain as he does try and put the fear of god into everyone, not too bad if you've been around a track before, but if it's your first time I can imagine you'd be making a few visits to the toilets :)

There was a recent thread on the throttle monkeys site about a recent weekend run by TTP and the riding standards and how Phil seems to be more talk than action, as he didn't seem to do anything throughout the day to route out the idiots and make the day safer for everyone concerned

I thought Focused Events breifing was very good at Cadwell recently. In fact the whole day was very professional in my opinion. Very few offs (if any) which was very different to other track days i've attended.

1 thing that Focused do which i think makes a difference to the number of offs is they put a board on your bike just as you leave the pits "WARM UP YOUR TYRES FOR THREE LAPS" everyone gets it.

ESS were good - transponders giving laptimes and then making groups of 3/4 who are similar speed / each group with an instructor - worked for me. my next was at BH indy with FE and was average event, but with lots of bozo's in the inter group, no one took notice of the yellow - second session to last this guy come wobbling outta control past me - let him go i said - he was on a faster bike, but slower in the corner speed and follow him into the long right onto the straight (momentary lack of knowledge) where he dives up the inside of another guy and takes his backwheel out !! i luckily had adecent space to watch (slow motion) and slide past without hitting either of them or bikes - result - 2 trashed bikes and one busted collarbone DOH! considering the number of "offs" earlier i wasn't surprised - just lucky.

I think the problem here is the clamp downs by the police, local governments on the biking community, thus the only way to have any fun is to do it on a track, something many people wouldn't of thought about 5-10 years ago, but as the police net covers more and more of the UK where else can anyone go?

So people turn to track days, or even club racing and rather than have the odd muppet here and there they'll be 5 maybe 10 of them at each event, but as I've seen and unfortunately more people seem to be experiencing also, it only takes one to ruin someone's pride and joy and the possibility of much much more

[Edited on 6-9-2005 by JPM]

Very good points JPM, especially your first about muppets not being routed out on TD's, which is what I was getting at really.
I think if I was as agrived again I'd be going to the organiser / session instructor and having a quiet word about who to watch.

Cheers for the comments everyone - all appreciated.

Frank

Presumably, yes - if you have to send your licence in if you get banned. Not sure, never been banned (touches wood). You have to show your licence at all the MVS circuits, every time, so no licence = no ride.

But I presume you could still go and get a race licence if you wanted to do TD's THAT badly - even if most organisers would shove racers in the fast group (I imagine ???)

Frank

Organisers would try to move racers into the fast group, but you choose which group to go in when you book. THe first TD I did had racers in the Novices to begin with, because it was a New Era weekend an on the Friday they took any remaining TD spaces that were left.

a lot of TD companies want a DVLA licence, even if you have a race licence

Most organisors won't let you our UNLESS you have a road licence-a race licence on it's own is no use. The only exception is if they have an ACU only (eg race) group. Therefore if you lost your road licence there would be no more trackdays until you got it back.

John

Ok Ok you only have to say it once :lol::lol::lol:

Just recieved a well written and measured reply from Phil (I guess we all know its him now - lol).
There were obviously other issues going on with the day that were not apparent....

I'll post my question and the reply exactly as they were written:

"Hello Phil,

I wanted to make some comments about the TD at Cadwell last Wednesday, I was in the inters group.

Firstly, I'm sad to say that its the first time I have ever felt unsafe on a trackday - I think this is much more a reflection on some of the riders in the inters group than of the organisation on the day.

I'm sure you remember having to call the inters group in and rightly having a word with everyone over riding standards - I myself was shocked to be overtaken more than once by someone going 30 - 40 mph faster than me but overtaking me only 6 inches away at the end of the start/finish straight!!!
However the general lack of respect and lack of attention for flags was disturbing as well, more than once I was surprised to a lady rider cutting in front of riders into the chicane and then later - various riders overtaking while a yellow flag was waved.

Two specific questions I would like to raise:
1) The briefing being held in the holding area - in my opinion lead to too many distractions, I certainly found it difficult to concentrate on the briefing. Was there a reason for not holding the briefing in the club house?

2) This was the first TD I've been to where all riders in a group were sent out in one big group. I cant help but think the problems of the day could of been lessened by perhaps sending batches of 10 riders out 20 or 30 seconds apart or even spliting the group in half.

I hope you take these comments in the constructive sense that I have tried write them.

Regards - Frank L. Smith"

===========================================

Frank
Many thanks for your comments and I will try to address them.
It seems that all three groups had riders ignoring the flags. I myself asked for feedback from the circuit and sadly I'm still waiting for it. I pointed out to the Duty Manager that according to their contract, they are in charge of the activities on the circuit once the bikes leave the holding area and that if I'm informed of a particular riders behaviour, I can address the situation. It seems it is too much bother for the marshals to report back to Circuit Control or for Circuit Control to liaise with me so that the day can run safer.
I take on board your comments about the briefing. I had a walk into the club house and found that by 8.15 it was already very warm, we also had 105 riders attend the event. The combination of heat & bodies, I feel would have lead to a lack of concentration and possibly more incidents, however, with the track being cleaned and non-riders creating noise, I have decided that regardless of the items above, I will be holding the brief in the club house from now on.
With reference the group being sent out in one line or a staggered start. If you run a staggered start with 35 riders, the danger is that you still have bunching in the tight areas, but also, it only takes a slight delay and you end up with some riders on their out-lap and others on their 2nd lap. When this happened on another organisers event, they had a major injury.
All in all, it wasn't a good day from our point of view. From what we saw, the riding was selfish, the flags were ignored and some people think they are racing. For Greg to say something in public meant that he thought his safety was going to be compromised and he was glad when the event came to an end.

We will always try to run a safe day, however we do need the help of the circuit staff and feedback from our customers.

I will print this email off and show it to the circuit management when we go back in October.

My final comment is that next year our events list will be greatly reduced as we have decided to avoid those circuits that don't give us feedback. I expect to run about 30 events at Anglesey, Croft & Mallory, with all of the MSV circuits & Donington not being considered till I feel they are prepared to give me the feedback I ask for.

Kind Regards
Phil Darbyshire
www.tracktimepromotions.co.uk

I am on a trackday at croft on Monday with TTP

My first was with them as well- again at croft about 8 weeks ago

The briefing did make me pap my pants tbh !!!!

I am booked on a load more on various sundays with hottrax i think at cadwell donny and silverstone

I thought the organisation was ok but i was nearly (deliberately) knocked off by very late inside braking at tower on my very first proper run by another rider because i overtook him on the outside at the chicanes after the starting straight

no word was said (including by me!)

all in all though i thought they were good and i am returning!

Now, that's scary! I've had a few people "close pass" me, but I've never felt that it was anything other than a faster rider making, at worst, a slight error in judgement. The idea that some t055er might pass deliberately dangerously, just because his nose was put out of joint earlier in a lap is a little worrying.

I found the response by TTP very interesting... I've never (touch-wood) felt threatened by other bikes at any track-day I've done, but have felt that, once or twice, fast riders have remained in the Novice group when they should have been moved up. A case in point was Dave's charity evening...there was a bloke in the Novice/Inter group on full wets who was tearing round the place. Not to say he was riding dangerously but, if its pi55ing with rain, everyone but you has got road tyres, why would you choose to ride in a group with novices in? I guess, thinking about it, it is obvious that, in the first instance, its the job of the Marshalls (employed by the circuit) to suggest riders are shifted, so maybe the particular marshalls working on the day have as much influence as the operator?

in the novice group i was in people had trackbikes and tyre warmers!!!!!

the guy who tried to 'have me' was on a supermoto

i was pretty pants to start with but by the end sesh had improved enough (still pants mind!)to be able to take him on the outside on nearly every corner, drop back to let him past and then do it again and again - at the hairpin onto the straight i did him again gave him the finger and left him behind lol

[quote]Originally posted by loverobot
in the novice group i was in people had trackbikes and tyre warmers!!!!!





[Edited on 17-9-2005 by Mello-Yellow]

It was the same at Oulton on wednesday, First two sessions wet. 2 lads on gixer 1000's with full wets, then when it dried up they had slicks and tyre warmers on, Bit much i.m.o. for the novice session.

But what is wrong with a person who might well be on their very first trackday and has got lots of money buying a set of wets, slicks and tyre warmers? Does that make them a fast rider? Does the level of kit you have influence which group you should go in?

I've got tyre warmers etc and i can just about hold my own in inters on DSC days. On other days and at unfamiliar tracks i would not be happy in inters.

Likewise I've taken my trackday bike into novice groups before (and will be at Donny) just to save my Duke incase anything nasty happens.

I agree - tyrewarmers seems a bit excessive for novice group but I wouldnt blame anyone for trying wet tyres when its 'chucking it' down.

Frantic Frank

But why are tyre warmers considered to be excesive for the novice group? Surely having confidence in your tyres is even more important for novices than for experienced track riders.

I got back in to trackday riding this year at Snett with Chicken Antoine and my cousin Roger.
It was Rogers first day on track and he came off at the chicane. He didn’t know why he’d come off but after debriefing him we concluded that he had been court out by cold Rennsports. He got a set of warmers off ebay before he’s second day out.

Now with his Pro V twins 996, Rensports, Scuffed up leathers and warmers, he looks like a seasoned vet. If you just look at the bike he would get throne to the lions in the fast group.


:o:o

Quite agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with having all the bells and whistles, and pottering around in the novices on Wets, but the situation I was remarking on was a bloke who was noticeably faster than everyone else in a group that varied from absolute novices to "mid-range" intermediates (it was a novice/inters & inters/fast two group event). When it comes to "close passing" and general track etiquette, I think there is a huge difference between what is acceptable in a novice group, what is acceptable in a pure inters group and what is acceptable in a fast group. When it is a two group event, you are bound to get a greater range of speed/ability in each group and, surely, if you place yourself in a group with novices in (potentially first track-dayers), you should abide by what is acceptable in a novices group, so I was just surprised that a bloke with the speed to run quite happily in an inters/fast group was doing going round with what he must have seen as a fair number of "mobile chicanes".