View Full Version : Skidlids Desmo Due Diary
skidlids
10-Jan-2005, 18:00
Mon jan 10th
Started the day by removing the tank from the bike and getting the Hoover out.
Cleaned up inside of tank as it was starting to rust a bit.
Removed the fuel pump and checked it out across a good battery, firstly it was a bit reluctant to go but it soon freed off.
Refit fuel pump in position and add some petrol to the tank
Turn on ignition and hey presto before long the pump is pushing out clean petrol.
Find some rubber pipe to connect fuel pump to tank outlet
Connect tank flow and returns and open fuel tap.
Crank engine over several times and it eventually coughs into life.
Not sounding to healthy though, sounds like horizontal cylinder is suffering a lot of piston slap, its noisey enough to make me think that the piston skirt maybe broken.
And on top of that both cylinder heads are spewing oil out.
So it looks like I'll be stripping both top ends before long
Still it runs and it gave me a chance to hear what the Micron can sounded like, certainly sounded better with a race can on it, certainly helped drown out the noise from the front cylinder.
Now for some pics, first two are how the bike was when I got it, the 3rd is with the Micron slipped on for a better sound.
skidlids
10-Jan-2005, 18:02
:o
skidlids
10-Jan-2005, 18:02
:devil:
Rattler
10-Jan-2005, 18:23
How much clearance will you get with that can?
Or is it out with a blow torch and crow bar!!!!!:o:o:o:o
Iconic944ss
10-Jan-2005, 19:22
Looks OK Kev,
Glad to see you got a 'proper one' with gold frame ;)
Oil dripping looks to be a concern - but I'm sure after a look-see and a head tightening session (on the bike as well), things will be good.
Hmmm..the can does look a bit low - is it possible to go to an SL type high level pipe I wonder?
Keep up the good work marra.
Frank
[Edited on 10-1-2005 by Iconic944ss]
skidlids
10-Jan-2005, 19:23
I'm sure I'll get enough clearance Tim, by the time its pushed fully home on the pipeworrk and the rear passenger footrest hanger is replaced with a more basic bracket I should be able to swivel the can a bit futher upwards and inwards.
ChrisBushell
10-Jan-2005, 19:40
You may well find that the feed o ring on the barrel to head joint has hardend and split, it went on my 900, easy fix.
Chris
skidlids
11-Jan-2005, 00:27
Cheers Chris,
Had a look at a Haynes manual earlier when around Senna3's and I spotted two likely candidates in the way of O rings.
So it will certainly be a heads off job, may as well lap the valves in while at it, as this doesn't infringe the rules.
If Piston/bore wear is really bad then I will have to consider the next step, maybe a 675cc kit or maybe another engine, seen engines go for £275 before and I know the where abouts of one but would need to persuade the owner to part with it.
So what was the best deal we could get on a 675cc kit ?
chicken
11-Jan-2005, 07:26
Originally posted by skidlids
So what was the best deal we could get on a 675cc kit ?
Dear small engineering shop, how much for 25 big-bore kits!!
Well done Kev, look forward to meeting you on the track.
cheers, Chi
ChrisBushell
11-Jan-2005, 10:28
Kev,
I should have an answer on the over bore kit on Thursday after a meeting with Ducati.
Chris
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
Kev,
I should have an answer on the over bore kit on Thursday after a meeting with Ducati.
Chris
I may be interested in Big bore kit if price is right.?
Cheers
Phil
skidlids
11-Jan-2005, 10:35
Thanks again Chris, I never intended to go the big bore route as I was hoping to keep costs to a minimum, especially the amount of money tied up in the bike as I know first hand what damage can be caused to a bike through racing, certainy wouldn't want to drop a valve or have a belt problem after spending out on a exspensive engine rebuild.
Kev
skidlids
14-Jan-2005, 16:07
Just taken the head off the horizontal cylinder, so does anybody want to confess.
skidlids
14-Jan-2005, 16:08
Lets just say it wasn't me that put the sticker there.
Has that been sleeved down....??? :mad:
skidlids
14-Jan-2005, 16:13
I knew somebody would ask, didn't take long.
The answer is the piston is upside down and the inlet valve has been trying to enlarge the cut out meant for the exhaust valve.
Spooky considering my post just before leaving work at lunchtime about Bigbore kits and clearances.
skidlids
14-Jan-2005, 16:16
Both cylinders are spewing oil and by the state of the O-ring bottom right I'm not suprised.
Belt tension was also a bit on the slack side, with about 8mm deflection under moderate thumb pressure.
skidlids
14-Jan-2005, 18:48
Stripping an engine to put a new piston in is a fairly significant amount of work for the amateur - not too difficult, but you have to know what you're doing !
So given the state of this piston, either someone didn't read the manual properly and then couldn't be bothered to investigate the rattle that must have been deafening on initial startup! Or alternatively, there's a rogue mechanic in a repair shop out there somewhere that doesn't know which way round to put pistons - surely that can't be true :o :o :o
skidlids
14-Jan-2005, 19:04
The letters scratched into the piston are either E and V or E and a arrow head, its just that they are upside down at the moment, I suspect the later which makes it even more unbelievable that someone has assembled it wrong.
Next I'll be checking the inlet valve to see if its been bent.
skidlids
15-Jan-2005, 20:38
Things are still moving along nicely, I have now sourced another engine, this time from a crashed M reg 600 Monster at a cost of £250.
So the bike and spare engine now owe me £1050 which is still at the right end of my budget.
I have been onto Ebay and sourced the Gaskets and O-rings I need from Superlight3 at DUCATISPARESONLINE.CO.UK as I intend to rebuild the original engine.
Popped into Raceparts UK today to get some -3 Braided hose and some banjo fittings to make up new Clutch hoses for mine and senna3's race bikes, I was given a huge discount by my mate there in the way of 100%--RESULT-- :D
Iconic944ss
16-Jan-2005, 08:06
And a bit of Carbon already - happy transplant !!!
skidlids
16-Jan-2005, 15:32
weather wise a real nice moring one of the best for a while, So tempting to take the 916 for a blast but must get on with jobs on the bikes. Which today included work on my ZXR400L to try and get it ready to sell,
Still had time for the Desmo Due racer though.
Pulled off the Horizontal Barrel, I'm so glad I did, Not only because its the only way to remove a cirlip and extract the gudgeon pin to allow removal of the Piston, but also because the alluminium base gasket was in a right state.
See pics.
skidlids
16-Jan-2005, 15:37
Engine removal will be easier than I thought, somebody has already started the job for me,
antonye
16-Jan-2005, 16:14
Are you really sure you did the right thing with this one Kev? :lol:
skidlids
16-Jan-2005, 18:36
I hope so Antony,
with another engine waiting for me to pick it up on Friday then all should be well with that fitted, plus me rebuilding this one as a spare all for under £1150 so far isn't to bad.
Luckily i'm not factoring in any Labour charges.
At least I have had the bike running so I know carbs, ignition etc are all OK. :smug:
skidlids
22-Jan-2005, 18:31
Not a lot been going on this week, I am now picking the other engine up on Monday.
I made a template at work to allow me and Senna3 to adapt some billet rearsets we already have to fit our SS's and hope to make the actual adapter plates tomorrow evening.
Popped over to Brancatto Engineering this morning to pick up a couple of base gaskets and circlips for the piston. Pulled up outside to find Dallas there getting some seat foam for his ZX10R
Had a very interesting chat with Tony and Donna about the series.
Donna showed me the porta stand they do that acts as a centre stand on the SS's and allows you to remove the swingarm, shock etc and with a support under the front of the engine will even allow you to remove the frame. at around £60 including the VAT I may see if Kev (Senna3) wants to go halfs on one, they are small enough to fit under the seat of a SS so will take up little room in a van.
I'm looking forward to getting a oil tight engine that doesn't knock fitted as I can then get on with sorting the brakes and suspension. I will worry about the fairing later as the bike is currently with lights etc and should pass a MOT with a couple of minor jobs. Then I can get out on it to assess its potential as a race bike and try a few different settings.
skidlids
23-Jan-2005, 18:00
Sunday Jan 23rd
I have now refitted the piston correctly, new circlip fitted
The barrel is now back in place, sat on top of a new alloy gasket and all done with out any damage to the Piston rings.
Now need to get my hands on a spanner for torqueing up the head bolts when I get around to fitting the head. I currently have two friends to try, if not I will have to pop over to Brancto Engineering with the bike in the van and ask Tony very nicely if he will do it for me.
Iconic944ss
23-Jan-2005, 18:16
Yep - Some of the head bolts are a little 'difficult' to get at. No doubt the pros have a neat spanner to use between bolt and torque wrench????
Originally posted by skidlids
Now need to get my hands on a spanner for torqueing up the head bolts when I get around to fitting the head. I currently have two friends to try, if not I will have to pop over to Brancto Engineering with the bike in the van and ask Tony very nicely if he will do it for me.
Yeah you really need the Ducati tool to do it properly,although I did see a nice cranked spanner set at the Newark Autojumble that would have done the job.:)
Great report Kev,keep on it mate!:)
skidlids
23-Jan-2005, 19:12
At least by having to strip the engine I found that it has the forged pistons and not the cast ones.
I filled the combustion chamber with WD40 and tiltted it so that it all pooled over the inlet valve, left it for a while and when I came back none of it had leaked by the valve seat. Looking at the very shiney inlet valve it looks as if it may be a new one, I wonder what I will find when I drop the engine out and remove the vertical cylinder. But before I get to that stage I want to run the engine to check the horizontal cylinder has stopped spewing oil and is running a lot quieter.
skidlids
20-Mar-2005, 12:59
Nearly two months since I added the last entry, Not a lot as gone on for the majority of that time, but the last week has been fairly productive.
I will try and add a more detailed account later.
Here is a pic of the bike as it stood this morning, engine sounds healthy and is just as it came from a crashed 600 Monster.
Budget is also lloking very good with around £1400 tied up in the bike so far.
skidlids
20-Mar-2005, 13:01
Still a bit to do
A dash would be handy
Iconic944ss
20-Mar-2005, 13:34
Nice work Kev.
I actually like the seat unit you have grafted on - whats it off? I can imagine it looking good when painted up.
As for a dash - why waste money? You must have ridden so many dukes by now that you know when to stop pulling the wire !
Frank
The seat is off a CBR600 FS-FW I think.
skidlids
20-Mar-2005, 14:37
Correct Dom, its not actually grafted on yet, still thinking about it. I have marked out where to trim it so it doesnt protrude in front of the seat. I was also thinkung of cutting the base to get it to sit over the original seat pad, its either that or make a subframe to support the fibreglass base and give me something to mount it to.
The rear light, indicators etc are still fitted at the moment just incase I decide on some road testing.
As for the dash I have a nice Stack Clubman 200 sat on the shelf its meant to go on my CBR600 but I found out yesterday I can program it for the amount of cyliders so I am considering using it especially as I always found the shift light handy when racing the 600. Its either that or I was thinking of using the pulse to one of the coils to trigger a FET and use a 916 tacho which would obviously be very easy to mount.
Buggad if that seat ain't low and the pegs ain't high. I don't think I would be able to walk after a couple of laps on that...
Looking good kev. Just one thing that I noticed. It looks real low on the front end. When you give them brakes a good handfull, you sure the fairing front won't hit the front fender?
skidlids
20-Mar-2005, 20:01
It is close Jon, in the picture there is 95mm between the fork dust seal and the casting on the bottom of the fork leg. Between the fairing and the mudgaurd there is only 75mm but I currently have 20mm of fork protruding.
I have not measured the static sag yet but the front does feel a bit soft, I know with the top of the forks flush with the top yoke I will be just about OK, but I do hope to improve on set up to give a little bit more adjustment/clearance. failing that I can re-jig my front bracket to gain a bit more clearance.
Kev whats the seat hight measurement. Looks ideal for a short house like me:)
skidlids
21-Mar-2005, 01:14
fairly low seat hight at the moment, if I use the seat in the pic I will need to weld up a subframe to go under it.
Foot pegs are on the highest setting at the moment, but I have made some different fitting plates to get rid of the adapters just need to clean them up in the mill then they can be fitted.
skidlids
25-Mar-2005, 21:24
While some of the Desmo Due guys were out at Brands getting in some practice and setup time I am slowly getting mine together, few little jobs done to day including the fitting of my Toby steering damper that cost me all of £50 for the damper and £15 for the fork clamp, the frame bracket I made yesterday at work.
Bike currently has to rear brake levers, once the 916 set up is finished the other will disappear
A few pics from my phone camera
Looking nice Kev. When does it get its first test ride.
skidlids
26-Mar-2005, 02:14
I still have a long list of things to do Jon
here are some of them
Front preload spacers to suit the new Ohlins springs
Fork oil change grade and set air gap
Fit a suitable shock (something slightly longer than the std 328mm)
Fit Suitable rear spring
Fit Shark fin chain gaurd
Fit suitableCatch tank/bottle
New footrest mounts (dont need that Mastercylinder fitment sticking up0
Sort a Rev counter
purchase and fit a rear Diablo
sort some gearing choices
Sort out a race seat unit and possibly a subframe. The standard seat pad feels about the right height to me but is to soft, so if I use a race seat and foam I want to get a subframe made that sits me at the right height.
As the bike stands I could have it ready to ride tomorrow but not ready to race. I have just over two weeks until I hope to test it at Llandow but I'm not sure if that is still going ahead following last weekends accident at Pembrey.
Still I sold one of my ZXR400s on Ebay the other day so now I have a bit of extra cash I can always book a trackday somewhere or try and get in on a Wed afternoon at Mallory.
Looks like you've grafting in the garage, Kev. Seems like it's coming along nicely. Can you not raise the nose of the fairing? It seems low from the pics.
skidlids
26-Mar-2005, 10:20
The Ohlins fork springs with the current preload spacers has reduced the static sag by 10mm and the over all fork travel is now 12mm less than it was with the standard springs (Thats when accelerating up the garden path and wacking on the brake so that it lifts the rear off the deck).
I still have 20mm of fork protruding and I am still want to try different pre-load spacers, air gap and slightly stiffer damping using thicker for oil.
I was thinking more about raising the fairing front with respect to the frame.
skidlids
26-Mar-2005, 20:30
I checked the gap between the front fender and the fairing while sat on the rear paddock stand and found it to be the same as the gap betwwen the fender and fairing on my 998 when also sat on its rear paddock stand so I'm not to worried by it.
After another suuny day spent tinkering in the back garden and workshop the fixing holes for the lower chain gaurd are now sorted as are the footrest and rear brake (now down to a single lever).
But the day has been far more successful not because I swapped the tyres that came with the 600SS for a few spare parts including a 900SS alloy swingarm (in case I want to go that route) but also it looks as if I have sorted the remaing parts needed to get the 998 Hybrid on the road. How happy am I that I didn't put all my money in to the little 600.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
skidlids
26-Mar-2005, 20:33
Forgot to mention that the sludge filter bolt and the shift drum ident spring bolt have now also been drilled ready for lockwiring.
Just a few bits left to add to mine too.......
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.payne2/photogallery/600Frame2.JPG
Oh, and check out http://www.desmodueracer.com ;)
Rattler
26-Mar-2005, 20:43
Originally posted by paynep
Just a few bits left to add to mine too.......
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.payne2/photogallery/600Frame2.JPG
Oh, and check out http://www.desmodueracer.com ;)
A few mins work and she'll be sorted I reckon.
:o:o:o:o
Nattyboy
26-Mar-2005, 21:34
Looking good kev..surprising how 'right' the 9** fairing looks on it !!
Keep up the good work mate !!
Cheers
Nat
skidlids
26-Mar-2005, 22:35
thanks Nat would like to get the seat unit sorted soon, I feel a Supermono one wouldn't look out of place, but the budget will dictate a cheap option.
What do people think of that 916 style one to fit the SS range on German Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=49927&item=7952775840&rd=1
antonye
26-Mar-2005, 22:50
Kev, I originally ordered one of these but he sent the wrong one, so I've now got a standard look one.
He's the same buy that owns/runs http://www.ricambi-weiss.de/ and quite a few of us now have stuff off him.
skidlids
26-Mar-2005, 23:53
its not a bad price and is just in line with my budget which is hopefully attached.
The final figure allows for the most exspensive shock option, just in case.
Rev counter may also work out cheaper if I can fit a 916 one, could always cut this cost out by reverting to the original mechanical one.
And this doesn't include selling many of the surplus parts , which would include full fairing, seat panels, clocks, mastercylinders, foot rests, original engine, etc
Well done Kev, you're proving-as I thought you would-that it CAN be done on a budget, with a bit of thought.....................
John
Iconic944ss
29-Mar-2005, 11:49
Interesting reading, that little spreadsheet Kev!
Good work - youve picked up some good bits at bargain prices but, in the interest of fairness, I think you need to put some values against the items that are currently zero - even if its just what you think they are worth now.
Thought I'd point it out in a friendly way first :lol:
Frank
skidlids
29-Mar-2005, 12:27
Frank the Exhaust hanger was given to me at Kempton Auto Jumble so it cost me nowt and if I didn't have it I would make one at work. As for the Front Diablo the bike did come with tyres and I have done a deal on them with a mate for some other bike bits that have a value pf £40, about the same value as a used front Pirelli Diablo.
As it is I now have a pile of standard SS bits that will grow futher when I sort the race seat , shock and remove rear light indicators etc. And in that Pile is the original engine and carbs, full fairing, headlight, clocks, bars, standard can etc.
As for the Braided hoses, its debateable if you need to change all 3 maybe just the brake hose, normally I make up the lines myself and each line usually costs me just under £10. I did go and get some -3 hose and fittings to make the clutch line and as in the post about 1/3 the way down the page you will see I was given 100% discount so I could have done just the brake hose for £0, I also have 3 unused Red coated aeroquip hoses at home that cost me £10 from Newark autojumble that I could have used, so on top of the figures you see there is not a lot that should be added. Even the original engine may be a cheap fix which again could have made the project a couple of hundred pound cheaper. But as the M600 enginge came along at the right time with the right price tag having just been fully serviced I took the easy route due to time constraints.
Hopefully the final price for the shock will come in at the bottom end of the price range.
And to be honest the fairing is priced at more than it cost me but at a price I have paid for others.
Iconic944ss
29-Mar-2005, 12:36
Good result!
I think its great that you are following the 'spirit' of the series Kev, along with gaining the knowledge to be able to tackle/fix just about anything at any time if needs be.
I'd just love to know where you get al the time from - do you have a tardis hidden away :lol:
skidlids
29-Mar-2005, 14:07
I wish I had a Tardis, I would have liked to have popped up to Newark Auto-Jumble on Sunday but the Boxhill meeting took priority.
A lot of this Easter break was given over to working on the 600, with several bits getting made and modified from Thursday evening onwards.
It is now ready to ride on a track and with a bit of lockwiring and a couple of more brackets it could go racing. But ideally I would like to improve the shock setup, seat unit and front fork setup before racing it. Still got a few weeks to go so it should be sorted in time.
skidlids
10-Apr-2005, 01:28
Had a 2nd hand Hagon shock arrive today, obviously it's not as good as a Ohlins but as its only a year or two old its in excellent condition and for £50 its also Excellent value and keeps me well within the £2k budget
The added Bonus is that its approximately 7mm longer than the standard one so should inprove both ground clearance and quicken the steering.
I will hopefully get around to fitting it in the morning.
thats a great effort i you can keep within a 2k budget i wish i had a bit more know how could of saved meself quite a bit and buy a few bags of skill instead.
skidlids
10-Apr-2005, 12:28
Shock now fitted, still need to set the sag and dial in the damping, but I have measured between a point on the subframe to the rear spindle and the distance has been increased by 12 to 13mm.
Iconic944ss
10-Apr-2005, 13:11
Good stuff Kev, I'd be interested to hear any riding comments you care to make about the difference in ride height and the Hagon shox.
Dont think you got to ride it did you b4 tearing it down to the ground ???
Just out of curiosity is there a std setting for rear ride height in the manual?
Good work marra - Frank
skidlids
16-Apr-2005, 02:32
At last I have ridden the DD race bike, didn't do as many laps as I would have liked and never got to push it as fast as I wanted to, more on that later.
On Wednesday afternoon, Dallas and I headed off to Sunny South Wales with our bikes, I took my road going 916 along with my 600SS, Dallas took his Tuned ZX10R, now running 16 1/2 Dymags fitted with slicks and a lighter spring on the rear Ohlins.
We headed to Llandow touring Caravan Park right next to Llandow circuit that 23 of us had got together and hired to run a training day the following day with a lot of the participants never having been on a track before the rest were mainly North Glos club racers.
Several hours after our arrival Senna3 arrived with his wife Trudi and his 600SS DD racer, we were also joined by a futher 10 or so of the group, so befor long the BBQ was cooking burgers and sausages and a trip was also made to the local chippy and off licence to make sure everybody had something to eat and drink. while the food was cooking several of the road bikes had things like mirros removed and lights taped up. Eventually the evening came to a close around 10:30 when it started raining.
Thursday morning I emerged from the back of my van to a bright sunny morning, things were looking very promising. After packing away the sleeping gear I loaded the DD bike back into the van and we all headed for the circuit to find several more mates waiting for us and the Cafe open.
after unloading the bikes we filled in the necessary paperwork and had the compulsory safety meeting.
Next the group was divided in two those that were there to learn from the day and those there to assist. The former group was then split into two groups mainly one for those with track experience and the other for those without. Then assistants were allocated to each student so to speak.I had agreed months ago to help somebody who was new to track riding. I was allotted my mates next door neighbour Dave who I had met once before, his bike was a SV650 so not a bad choice for me to help on my 600SS.
As I have never been to the track before and as I haven't at this point ridden the DD bike I did the first session on my 916, taking it very steadily at first as I didn't want to Put Dave off as the track was still mainly damp from the overnight rain with a few places having some sizeable puddles mostly on the bends.
After the first session finished I had a chat with dave to see if he had any issues with the track and if he was happy with the initial pace. As far as he was concerned all was good and roll on the next session.
Time to try my DD bike at last, the track was still fairly damp so I spent the 15 minute session leading Dave around at a slowly increasing pace as I got familiar with my bike.
Next time out the track was mainly dry with only one corner still having a puddle on the entry to it. Again on the DD bike I went out infront of Dave and after a couple of laps to warm the tyres I waved him past so I could follow him and see what his riding was like and if he had taken in our previous discussion about turn in points and apexes. He started to circulate at a comfortable pace, nailing it down the straights which gave me a chance to open up the 600SS and also try its brakes as Dave was still braking far to early. As he wasn't getting the line right on some of the corners I later nipped past him to try ang get him to turn in later and hit the remaining Apexes.
With that session out of the way and after a debrief I suggested we try a bit of late braking into the Bus Stop chicane as ther is a what they call a NO **** escape road in case you mess up. The idea was to get him to brake harder than he would normally on the road and to give him confidence in what he and the bike can do just in case one day something pulls out in front of him on the road.
The chosen braking point that we were aiming for was the last marker board before the chicane, previously Dave had been using the one 25mtrs earlier.
All went well for about 5 laps on the previous laps I had gradually left my braking later and later and by the 4th lap I was braking at the target point as was Dave and each time as I exited the chicane I looked back to check he was Ok. On the 6th Lap I again braked at the final marker board using enough force to get the back end loose and then the engine died. I just made it into the chicane which luckily is where the pit lane joins the track. so I pulled to the left curb and then pushed the bike into pit lane. A few minutes later I had it running again and rode it back to the van. Nothing obvious so I decided to do away with the oneway breather valve in case it was causing an air lock.
Next few sessions I took the 916 out to be fair to Dave and keep his progress going.
After lunch it wass time to try the 600 again, then after 3 laps it did exactly the same thing at the same place, so I again pushed it into pit lane got it fired back up and rode it back to the van, this time it was missing a bit. i had a few options so I went with the easiest first, I fitted new plugs although I suspected it was the carb as adding a bit of choke improved things as if the pilot jets were blocking up, aided by a the heavy braking stirring up the remains of the rust inside the tank and the fuel system.
Next seesion I again went out on the DD bike and this time it cut out after 3 and a half laps, this time I coasted to the entry to the pit lane, where again I managed to get the bike fired back up and rode it back to the van. I then proceeded to pump the fuel from the tank into a fuel jug and a lovely colour of brown it was. (How much do I regret selling Ali that SS tank last September).
So that was it for my SS for the day, i was very pleased with its handling and braking, I was also very confident with the Diablo in the front and I know the Diablo rewar will be marginally better than the Sportec I had in the rear.
But after doing a few laps on Senna3's big bore kitted bike I am a bit worried by the diffence in power/torque. Then just to really scare myself I took out Dallas's ZX10R on a track that only requires 3 gears. I only did half a dozen laps then i came back in before I binned it. its safe to say there is still alot of setup work needed on the suspension, due to the lack of feedback I was getting through the 8mm foam seat I could probably have lapped quicker on my 916, how Dallas was lapping at the pace he was make the mind boggle especially as he was chasing two guys that regularly run near the front of the NG 600 class who were both on tuned and setup GSXR600K2s.
The Good news is I have got a replacement tank coming which along with cleaning out the carbs should hopefully sort things in time for Cadwell.
Iconic944ss
16-Apr-2005, 08:32
Good write up marra - and yes, I've been shocked at the amount of crud left in my tank. Filter changes/cleaning still to be done.
Just out of interest - how did you rate the track?
Frank
skidlids
16-Apr-2005, 10:24
Track was ideal for the purpose of testing the bike and teaching people new to a trackday, at only 1.5 km long it is fairly easy to learn. It has a good tarmac surface that offered loads of grip when dry.
My mate Simon Knowlson is the lap record holder there and a rider of his calibre finds it useful for testing. It was more suited to the GSXR600s than Dallas's ZX10R and was perfect for the 600SS as you only really had to use the brakes once for the entry to the Bus Stop chicane. Even the 916 was enjoyable to ride around LLandow but a 180 tyre would have helped, the 190 made it feel a bit slow turning through the chicane
We intend doing it again as it was a enjoyable experience and any body wanting to try a track for the first time I would recommend they join us if they are in the South of England (Take Note Chippy and Evertons better half Brenda)
bradders
16-Apr-2005, 10:37
Great read Kev. I remember a discussion a while ago about this and forgot it! Would be defo up for doing another, especially if I get some tuition because I need it!!!
At least I realise why i am so slow, I rarely brake, certainly not hard. Maybe DD would have been a good learning experience for me, but still working on on the missus and I expect lost of positive reinforcement from you guys when she comes with me to cadders;)
skidlids
18-Apr-2005, 11:56
Senna3 tells me my replacement fuel tank has been delivered to his works, so I will pick it up on the way home and hopefully have it fitted this evening complete with a new fuel filter.
Saturday evening I managed to make a subframe for the race seat which is the 916/600SS hybrid one that I refered to in a earlier post, so the seat and Tank will add just over a £100 to my budget Taking my expenditure to date up to £1761 and barring any futher problems the only other item I need is a Rear tyre.
So still looking good for staying under £2k budget wise all be it by only running a 583cc bike.
skidlids
21-Apr-2005, 00:30
Yesterday after checking out the inside of the replacement tank I refitted the cleaned out carbs added the airbox, battery etc and then fitted the tank to the bike added fuel and had the bike up and running again. All OK so far but then so was the other tank until it saw a race track.
So with the tank back in place it was time to fit the race seat and the newly made subframe.
As can be seen in the pic the seat still needs painting and a bit of bum padding adding.
Looks neat Kev, that seat unit work well:cool:
skidlids
21-Apr-2005, 01:00
Seat unit is attached using Dzus fateners and will be fitted with a nice thick bit of foam to help me stretch over the tank and reach the Clip-ons.
In this pic it can just be seen that the seat didn't quite match the subframe I made it sat on it at the edges but the underside of the seat has a curve that created a gap.A good squirt of expanding foam soon sorted that out, so now I am working on the engine breather catch tank, the originals are still in place although I have turned them up side down and mounted them on top of the bikes original subframe and into the gap under my fabricated seat support, now I just need to drill a hole in the right place and pipe it to a 500ml bottle.
[Edited on 21-4-2005 by skidlids]
skidlids
21-Apr-2005, 19:43
Yet more progress, that should be the engine breather and catch tank sorted. even has a nice accessible drain bolt.
Kev you have got loads of room under that seat unit. Nice single termie would look a treat:cool:
skidlids
21-Apr-2005, 19:54
It would but that would be copying Senna3, his is going to look real sweet when its finished, all black bodywork except for the white number boards, red wheels, underseat exhaust and finished off with Senna3 stickers.
Me I'm just putting together a cheap race bike that complys with the rules
I'd like to see a pic of senna3's bike:o
skidlids
21-Apr-2005, 21:47
Senna3's bike is nearly ready Tank is away getting sprayed at the moment and he still could do with a Termi can as he has used a standard one for sorting out the pipework.
So has any one got a odd Termi lying around to sell cheap
Does it have to be a termie Kev, can't he get a race can that is meant for a CBR600RR or have the std one cored?
skidlids
22-Apr-2005, 00:35
He could go with either option, getting a standard one cored may be the best option as the 996 cans on his 916 Strada have been done and he's happy with them, also I did mention it to him a few days ago about going the coring route as I know there is a very helpful website about that details the job.
Just arranged to drop my seat off tomorrow to get it sprayed, getting it done black at the same time as Senna3's tank. would like to get my tank and fairing done as well but as the Red stuff is good enough for now it can wait and i'll just have to live with the slower undercoat. I would like to go Black with Yellow wheels and graphics to match my riding gear.
psychlist
22-Apr-2005, 08:09
looking real sweet Kev, your experience shows through as it's a very professional looking job and all your own handiwork mate :cool: James and I (not so much of the "I" tho!!!) spent over 2 hours on my Monnies rear suspension last night to raise it up as far as she'll safely go (1/2"!!) on the rose joints and still got nowhere near getting the shocker off! You must have spent a good few hours getting the SS up to standard?
skidlids
22-Apr-2005, 09:31
Your right Paul I certainly have spent hours on the bike bt then I have always enjoyed that side of things, last few years we have been preping TT bikes. before that I was usually getting my bikes from breakers and sorting them out, before I went racing myself I was mechanicing for a couple of mates, doing fork rebuilds etc. And before that It use to be building the specials, mainly Harris Magnums.
skidlids
25-Apr-2005, 15:30
Seat is now Gloss Black and fitted to the bike it just needs a bit of foam for me to sit on.
Rear Diablo should be here tomorrow.
Transponder bracket is fitted in place and the transponder has been charged up
Other than it could do with testing it is ready to Rock & Roll apart from one number board.
skidlids
27-Apr-2005, 13:32
Picked my rear Diablo up on the way home yesterday. During my lunch-break I had shaped and trimmed the seat foam so on arriving home the first task was to fit the seat foam, easily done with a pot of Evo-stick. Was just about to top up the fuel when I had a visit from one of the nighbours who then wanted to talk about bikes for the next 45 mins. Finally the tank was topped up, helmet, boots and gloves were put on and off I went for a little jolly in the country. I soon noticed the gear position was still to high and the front end wasn't quite straight. The roads were still a bit crowed with people making their way home from work so there wasn't much chance to open the bike up until on the way back home the road opened up onto a long straight which was void of cars, so I wound the throttle to the stop and had her flat out through the gears then as the 30 limit approached I was hard on the brake and unlike last time the bike didn't cut out. I'm hoping the replacement tank and pump have cured the problem but as this wasn't a true simulation of 3 laps on a race track I can't be certain.
After getting home I removed the rear Metzeler Sportec and replaced it with the Diablo and if weather permits I will will do some more road testing prior to loading the bike up for Cadwell.
skidlids
28-Apr-2005, 11:13
Had another successful road outing yesterday evening when I went for a 10 mile jolly to scrub the new rear tyre in, this time I managed to find a bit more space for opening the bike up and had the poor little thing at full throttle for about 2 miles. On the lower gearing it was reving hard and it does make me wonder how long the engine will last.
Again there was no signs of the engine cutting out although at low revs and just off a closed throttle it did feel very fluffy as if it was a tad rich.
I can safely say the suspension is not set for the road as pot-holes and derain covers are best avoided.
As the bike stands the budget is up to £1835 to which I will probably end up adding a Rev counter, not worried about it at Woodlands as I doubt if I'll have time to look at it.
Pic is of the bike after I arrived back home after testing yesterday
Great effort, Kev. Congrats! It represents the true spirit of club racing. Best of luck with your racing this season.
skidlids
28-Apr-2005, 11:34
Thanks Felix, the only way I can justify taking part is to do it the way I have, with my experience I thought I would stay away from the extra power a bigbore kit would provide and with several preped race bikes already in the workshop the budget had to be adheared to.
So thats basically what I'm putting into it a under £2k bike built and maintained by myself along with my riding abilities.
What I hope to get out of it is a lot of enjoyment and a bit more corner speed that will help me when I go and do a few races in other classes and if I ever get my knee down that would be a real bonus, although I feel having a few metal pins removed from my body may help on that front.
skidlids
02-May-2005, 13:37
See here for Cadwell race report
http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=19215
skidlids
02-May-2005, 13:40
Following the 3 DNFs at Cadwell due to brake failure here is what I have found so far, bearing in mind that at the meeting I changed the disc, pads, fluid and mastercylinder.
This morning I have been Checking for cause of the brake problems and I think I may be onto something.
I suspect that a major part of the problem is the change to a better disc, firstly I ran a SPS iron fully
floater which is what I had on when I crashed, after that I changed to a modern semi floater off my 748RS
front end. Trouble is both discs are a nominal 5mm thick making them 1mm thicker than the standard 600SS
disc, in itself this should not be a problem as the narrowest point of the calliper is 7.5mm wide giving
the newer disc 2.5mm of clearance, however this is only true if the disc is aligned dead centre of the
calliper, now looking at how the pistons are protruding from my calliper there is a 2.5mm difference with
the outer pistons stuck out the futhest, which suggests the disc was running near enough up against the
inner edge of the calliper.
With the self aligning aspect of the the fully floater this is not so obvious
and also less of a problem, but changing to the semi floater after the crash probably made things worse as
shown by how many laps I did in race 2 compared to race 1.
I have checked the speedo spacer I made and it is exactly the same width as the original speedo drive so
its not that.
Attention then turned to the spindle retainer that clamps inside the bottom of the left fork
leg, in the time I have owned the bike I have never disturbed this, on inspection it was found to be
protruding 1.5mm on the inside of the fork leg which in turn moves the front wheel and the disc 1.5 mm
futher away from the calliper mount, not a issue with the original narrower disc but may well be with the
thicker 5mm discs especially the semi floating one and as things got hotter and expanded clearances would have been futher reduced maybe to the point where the disc was continually rubbing the calliper causing the brake fluid to overheat.
Currently ony a suspicion/theory but it is something I can easily alter.
It may also be the cause of my original new brake pads glazing over on Saturday evening practice as the thicker pads would certainly had clearance issues on the Saturday afternoon untimed practice, especially the inner pad, but again the fully floating disc would have helped mask it.
Interested to hear Paynep (Paul Paynes) and Fil2's views
bradders
02-May-2005, 13:43
kev - got a great pic for you mate, will bung it over on email;)
bradders
02-May-2005, 13:43
kev - got a great pic for you mate, will bung it over on email;)
ops repeating myself
[Edited on 2-5-2005 by bradders]
Kev,
I think that you could be onto something re the alignment of the disc - I will check out my semi-floater to see - but it was the original disc off of the bike, and I know the spindle bush was located properly cos I have fallen for that one before!
However, I did not have any problems fitting new pads to either disc setup - which I have experienced when the disc and caliper are not aligned properly. Also I have run identical full-floaters and calipers on my 851 on both road and track without any noticeable problems............
I will pop the pistons out of the caliper tonight and see what the inside is like.
Maybe we were just using our brakes too much for a single disc setup?
Rattler
04-May-2005, 11:03
Originally posted by paynep
Kev,
I think that you could be onto something re the alignment of the disc - I will check out my semi-floater to see - but it was the original disc off of the bike, and I know the spindle bush was located properly cos I have fallen for that one before!
However, I did not have any problems fitting new pads to either disc setup - which I have experienced when the disc and caliper are not aligned properly. Also I have run identical full-floaters and calipers on my 851 on both road and track without any noticeable problems............
I will pop the pistons out of the caliper tonight and see what the inside is like.
Maybe we were just using our brakes too much for a single disc setup?
Didn't Fil2 have similar problems, something to do with the speedo drive replacement spacer being the wrong size or wrongly located or something? Which meant that the caliper was getting too hot as it was rubbing the disk constantly?
Probably worth a U2U ??
skidlids
04-May-2005, 11:19
Yes Tim, Fil2 had a few problems as I did a bit of brake bleeding for him and as I understand it the spindle bush in the left fork was repostioned.
I came into work late this morning as I spent a hour checking the front end out again.
My latest findings show that my front wheel is approximately 2mm off centre as the gap between the tyre and the right fork leg is almost 4mm smaller than the gap between the tyre and the left fork leg,
I double checked my Speedo spacer against the original speedo drive and they are both 35mm, the bush in the left fork leg is in its original position and as it has a top hat shape to it the wider rim bit is already pushed hard up against the fork leg. Now either this bush is noy the correct one, or its the wrong way round or possibly a wheel bearing has been replaced with a wider one, but somewhere a error the best part of 2mm has found its way into the setup which I know for certain has nothing to do with me. I have made things worse by fitting a thicker disc but if all was correct in the first place this would not be a problem.
I now have several options available to me
1:- Reduce the width of the speedo Spacer by 2mm down to 33mm
2:- Machine the rim off the top hat bush in the left hand forkleg
3:- Remove the wheel bearings and check their width
4:- Try my spare front wheel and see if its any different.
Which ever solution I use will move the wheel back towards the lefh hand fork leg and should hopefully give a lot better alignment between the calliper and disc.
Skids, not being an engineering bod, but I'd be tempted to throw in your spare wheel and check the alignment there first, you may well need to use that wheel at some point in the series...
Depending on the results I'd go with checking the width of the bearings on both front wheels, again just to be sure in your own mind...
Good luck
[Edited on 4-5-2005 by JPM]
skidlids
04-May-2005, 14:03
Good point JPM, if I'm taking out the original to check bearings I may as well fit the spare to save having it up in the air on paddock stands for to long.
I have just made a 33mm Speedo spacer just in case and willl pop around Senna3's later in the week to check out the components of his front wheel setup.
Also just cleaned up the faces of the Pads that I glazed over on Saturday evening in untimed practice and also machined a slight chamfer on them to make them easier to locate over the disc.
Where you been hiding JPM I popped up to Silverstone the other weekend hoping to catch up with you and give you back the £15 I owe you, didn't see you there and I read the reasons so I hoped to catch up with you at Cadwell on Sunday but again no sign.
Yeah Silverstone didn't happen, got called out on the Saturday by work from 8am until 5am on Sunday, so was in no fit state to drive to SIlverstone let alone ride a bike!
And Cadwell, we had the best intentions and got up at 6:30 to meet up with Steve M, but it was raining and we don't do riding in the rain, so eventually ended up at Oulton via a mate with GSE passes, then when I got back later decided to go for a spin and the bike was dead anyways...
skidlids
28-May-2005, 11:43
I took the 600SS budget racer down to Llandow on Thursday afternoon for yesterdays trackday to use the day to test the front brake setup.
The weather was brilliant as was the condition of the track.
I was out in the advanced group along with all manner of bikes, R1's, ZX10R's, Fireblades and of course Senna3 on his 674SS.
Started cautiously to bed the pads in but was having to use them a lot more than I intended to stop me running into the rear of some of the bigger bikes in the corners, Next session was interupted by our only faller of the day, he was wisked off to hospital but later returned with just a bandage on his knee, his ZX600 wasn't to badly damaged either.
Once we restarted I was soon comfortable with the front brake and started to put in quicker laps, I finished that second session happy with the way the front brake had performed. 3rd Session I got stuck behinnd my old Fireblade, unlike last time at the track the safety officer had told us there would be no overtaking on the bends, that caused a bit of a problem, how do you pass a 120bhp fireblade ridden by a ACU licence holder down the straight when your on a 600 twin putting out just shy of 50bhp. Answer you DONT consequently my lap times remained in the 52sec bracket. The following session I managed to find a bit of space and was quite happily lapping in the 51sec bracket which I was quite pleased with so rather than push any harder I decided to rest the bike for the rest of the day especially as the left fork seal was now leaking.
The next advanced group I took my GSXR600 out, it felt so different, heavier, wider but worse was the bar angle which was so different from my SS, still after 4 laps I was doing 51 sec laps on it, I finished the session early to come in and alter the bar position. Next time out on it I went in the inters to have a look over some of the other riders that were taking part.
First I came across was Lin on her 583 Monster after 3 laps warming her tyres she decided to get on the gas and was comfortably moving around the bike and riding a good line, earlier in the day i had noticed she wasn't really moving about the bike which was mentioned to her by my mate Mike who was one of the instructors. As for Lins lean angles I think she impressed alot of people with them especially around the left hander onto the pit straight. Sadly Lin and Zimbo couldn't sort out increasing her ride height on the rear so she was finally limited in corner speed by her exhaust dragging on the track.
I then went out in the novice group to watch a few others including Chippy but as he looked as if he had everything sorted we left him to enjoy himself
Senna3 was having a good day he was contiuing with his improvement as a rider and is getting faster every time out on the bike.
Kev's wife Trudi took part in her very first trackday and after a very nervous start riding the bike I picked up at the BMF last Sunday she was soon enjoying the experience.
Speaking of enjoying the day Chippy (Simon) was beaming from ear to ear as he got into the action on his immaculate 749 on his first ever trackday, finishing the day with well chewed tyres and the paint bubbling off his wheel rims due to the heat in the tyres, a trip to the powder coaters is now required.
I didn't enter the final Advance group as i had been out in other groups so just sat back to watch as all the instructors were out in this group for a play. it was entertaining watching jeff White on his sorted GSXR1000 trying to get past Tommy Garness on his borrowed standard R6 it just wasn't going to happen, he would just about get alongside Tommy at the end of the straight when Tommy would leave the braking latter and pull a gap that increased as the corner went on, this was the pattern twice a lap for about 15 laps, good fun to watch.
All in all a succesful day one which we hope to repeat in the future
everton
28-May-2005, 11:50
Sounds like a cracking day Kev,
Mrs E & me will be along for the next one hopefully - that is if you do it again.
ps - please check your e-mail
[Edited on 28-5-2005 by everton]
skidlids
30-May-2005, 00:59
Fork seal in left leg replaced to day, also fitted the 15T front sprocket and the new Harris Ti/alloy exhaust can picked up at the BMF for £35. Just need to make a new exhaust hanger for it as the new can sits higher up and sits in tighter against the side of the bike.
skidlids
11-Jun-2005, 10:43
The new Exhaust worked out well at Castle Combe passing the Noise test at all of 94dB.
I had also decided a rev counter would be neccesary for Castle Combe to enable me to build a final drive ratio database.
Having blown up several intergrated circuits trying to get the 916 rev counter to work on my SS I ran out of time and fitted my Stack Revcounter that has sat idle for the last 4 and a bit years. A bit OTT for my budget bike but it does the job, cost me nothing (although does have a decent value) and as a bonus has a shift light and recall.
I think this would be well over the top
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7979791079&fromMakeTrack=true
Castle Combe race report to follow
[Edited on 11-6-2005 by skidlids]
Ohhh, yummy!!
Thats a 'proper' rev counter :lol:
:D
skidlids
18-Jun-2005, 18:43
Saturday 18th june, what a scorcher of a day. I was up early with the intention of going to Beaulie Motorcycle World show, but the others I was going to go with decided Golf was the priority for the day. Not for me it isn't.
Preping the DD bike for Snetterton was this weekdnds Priority.
So we started by getting the bike out into the sunshine and giving it a checkover to see if anything was about to drop off.
All checked out OK, so what next change gearing, nah leave it as it was at Castle Combe, I've never ridden Snet so I would only be guessing and with a few extra practices in the form of a trackday I have a bit more time to test and see what works.
OK what next I said to my self, I know I'll fit a twin disc front end.
Checked the length of the fork legs in the 600SS ah-ha they are the same length as in the 620 Monster. Measure from the underside of the bottom yoke to the centre of the wheel spindle on the DD bike and get a reading of 430mm to use as front ride height reference.
Jack up the monster and whip out the front end less yokes & callipers.
Next jack up front end of 600SS and whip out its front end less Yokes and replace with the Monster front end. Next pinch callipers and Mastercylinder off my 996 project.
Hey Presto a twin disc front end, couple of problems, steering damper clamp doesn't fit the later fork legs and also the wrong tyre and the mudgaurd look naff.
Solutions :- Remove Steering damper, swap front mudgaurd for my well tatty Carbon one that has been kicking around the garage since November and as for the front tyre, Knock the bearings out of bothe front wheels and swap over along with the spacer, Job done wheel colours still match.
Check front rideheight measurement, 410mm.... right who knicked 20mm... time for some single rate Ohlins springs, check my stocks two sets of 0.9kg/mm ones one set off a 748/916 and the other set off your guess is as good as mine.
The 748/916 ones are the same outside diameter and only 4mm shorter in length, only slight problem was their inside diameter was a fraction smaller causing then to bind on the plastic guide. I could have just done away with the guides but with a deburring tool I trimmed them to the right size.
Re-assemble the forks with the Ohlins springs and now the front ride height is 420mm, still missing 10mm, 5 of which I can get back by running the Fork tops flush with the yoke, but as the spings are 0.05kg/mm stiffer than the ones I had in the original front end hopefully the front mudgaurfd meeting the fairing will not be a issue.
I will work out what this adds to the budget when I have replaced the Monster front end bits that I robbed and offset that against any parts I sell on from the SS front end if I decide to sell, firstly lets see how I get on with the new front end, certainly isn't going to make the bike faster down the big straight at Snet but it may allow me to brake a bit closer to the corner at the end of it.
And while I have been doing all this I seem to have missed something happening with some posts if Weeksy's one that I have just read is anything to go by and juding by the replies it is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
skidlids
18-Jun-2005, 18:45
look Mum it has one each side
ericthered40
18-Jun-2005, 18:58
They will keep you out the Cabbage patch. ;)
skidlids
05-Aug-2005, 09:51
Originally posted by skidlids
I will work out what this adds to the budget when I have replaced the Monster front end bits that I robbed and offset that against any parts I sell on from the SS front end if I decide to sell
quick update, to replace the forks, callipers and discs robbed from my M620 has cost me £180.
I still have the original front end that has a fully floating SPS disc which if I was to sell I could offset against the cost of the new bits.
But at the moment I will hang on to them as the budget racer is still a cheap bike now owing me in the region £2075 and has a spare engine (noisey but runs) and a spare front end minus a wheel.
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