620 big bore?

[butch890]

Wow what a weekend.
A veritable rollercoaster as far as we were concerned,Chris struggled with confidence after his Rockingham crash as well as the Reserve farce (thanks weeksy) .
All in all a great weekend (thanks to Paul fromm CSS for the practice starts) and now its just down to some track time to get the bike handling as Chris likes it and get the bike looking as pretty as it was before battle comenced!
Anyway to the point of the post ,i personally thought the MT have got the power spot on for the 583 bigbore bikes so as to be very even with rthe 620's (as this weekend proved)
however i am very concerned about the mutterings from 620 riders about going big bore before Castle Combe (i was told by 3 riders they are keen to do it) .
I realise it may be to late and we might be closing the stable door etc what with the fact that there is already onr 620 bb already on the grid and the fact that the final regs have been published but i can see a race series with a race within a race developing.
Is it too late to ban 620 bigbores and more importantly what do other competitors think?
Butch

[Rattler]

Its already a 2-tiered race series, I shouldn't bother to go BB.
Tim:frog:

[NBs996]

I'm with you Butch, there was a gentlemans agreement to keep things as even as possible and leave the 620 on standard bore.

The 583's were a little bit slower, but nothing too significant. I was just about able to reel in Andy (Team CK&AK) down the straight, but not by much, and Phil (583 big bored) was losing a few meters on me down there too but was able to keep on my tail for the whole of both races because he seemed to be the better rider.

I think the 620 bb's would be bad for the series, but at the end of it all we'll know who the trophies SHOULD have been going to, so if someone want to throw a shed load of money into boring a 620 then let them, but their victories will be hollow.

[AK]

From AK

its not in the rules that they cant go big on the 620's, so it cant be stopped. It will always be the people with more money from sponsorship etc, to have the more powerful bikes - thats racing. However, there is STILL time to ammend this, but it needs to be done NOW.

Obviously riders capability comes into it too tho.

This was shown when Andy, who rode our bike, pulled rabbits out of hats to keep the 583 within a shout of the 620 team bikes (and also Ian's 620).

He said tho, however much he wringed the bikes neck, he was being 'mirror,signal, manouvered' past on the bottom straight by riders on the 620's.

A more powerful bike will pull away more on the bigger tracks.

This will be more evident by Snetterton - and we can see there being at least 2 classes within the race.

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by CK and AK]

[Jon]

Well sais Nick. Good honest post.

[butch890]

I agree that its in the rules,that wasnt my point.
Although the 620's had a SLIGHT advantage yesterday the racing was very close and was without a doubt great viewing for the spectators .
Even though our bike has been paid for and prepared solely by Chris and I ,
we Do have the money to go BB but are not willing to do so purely to keep the racing close.
Butch

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by butch890]

[Tonio600]

I didn't know there was a big bore for the 620.
I didn't know one was already racing with us, who is he ?
And I don't want to fit one on my bike, because I think it would become really unfair (even if I am a disadvantage for my bike).

[TP]

My thoughts ... FWIW

Geoff Spencer is quick. I think he would still have won on a standard 620 and after speaking to him about bhp numbers his bike doesn't have an advantage over other 620's - he may have a better curve but there be bugger all difference in it IMO.

I've always thought that the bikes would be fairly even and I think the weekend proved it. It all comes down to the riders and seeing a 583 so far up the field proved that, plus seeing Phil and Ali doing so well.

I won't be going the big bore, if that sort of money was burning a hole in my pocket it would be going on more CSS days - I'm the limiting factor, not my bike. Especially if Nick (MBs996) and Ian Leah (the old man) don't do it because they are the ones I want to beat.

Just my opinion of course ...

[dickieducati]

kind of agree with you tony.

were i battling at the front 2,3,4,5th places i would probably get it done as i would be in the frame for podiums ,silverware, prizes etc but for me i have so much more to do as a rider first its not really an issue.

unfortunately there was a bit of a faux pas made in the regs, and its all very well and good having a gentlemens agreement but with hindsight the rule should have been changed. to be fair though the rules were there for all to see and you could buy any applicable bike you wanted up to the class limit. geoff is very quick as you say, havnt met him but wonder if he was not aware of the so called gentlemans agreement?

[ericthered40]

Your right Geoff is fast and his curves are undoubtedly looking sweet, I wouldn’t mind seeing a dino chart of that bike compared to a 583 though
I think that woodlands is not giving us the full pic yet.
I hope the 620s keep it close, it must be better for the hole field?
:o

[AK]

Just as a guide, our 583 bike at this point is putting out:

48bhp at the rear wheel
compression is 160psi on the rear cyl, and 155 on the front - which is as it came offf the road - with over 18,000 hard commuter miles on it (no apparent servicing)

Got a DP 2 into 1 pipe work & MHP can on it.

Fuelling: Carbs are upjetted

No air filter or top (using remnant as catch can!)

Gearing is 14 front, 45 rear - rear is still as std when we brought the bike, so heavy steel one.

[domski]

Originally posted by butch890
i personally thought the MT have got the power spot on for the 583 bigbore bikes so as to be very even with rthe 620's (as this weekend proved)


Believe me, if you're riding a 583/675 then you wouldn't think that!

The 620's have a big advantage, and the 680's have an even bigger one.

583 Fastest Lap:

Andy Johnson 0:50.20

620 Fastest Lap:

Clinton De Tarnowsky 0:48.77

680? Fastest Lap:

Geoff Spencer 0:47.81

Andy rode a blinder all weekend, and in my opinion was a match for Geoff on ability, so the 2.5 second diff over such a small circuit is HUGE!!

This is not a 'close' series, and it is not 'equal' in any way.

I'm very lucky that I'm in the position I am with Louigi, cos he'll build the same spec bike as Geoff, and a number of others who'll be having the work done for CC.

HOWEVER, I think that this is where the series will fall on its arse, and has lost the plot, coz Fil2 & Ali have the ability to win races in this series, but they will be denied by the poor decision making of the series rule writers.

Let me remind you of one of the main principles of the series, taken from the Desmo Due Racing Rules 2005


The objective is to try and provide a format that will promote close racing, keep a lid on costs and put the emphasis on rider ability rather than budget ability, whilst limiting the number of rounds to something manageable for the family man.


I think what you've done is...


Provide a format that will promote Dealers and Ducati brands, and put the emphasis on budget rather than rider ability, whilst turning a blind eye to anything outside the rules and spirit of the series


I'm quite serious about this. It needs to be addressed, before you have a grid of 10 bikes, and a severe lack of interest. I haven't had to buy a bike, and I'm spending every penny I earn to do this. I don't see why I should be defeated by people who have plenty of money, but can't ride for toffee.

Feet need to be placed back on the ground.

This should always have been a 583 OR a 620 series and no big bores. Not all 3!!!

[domski]

Originally posted by butch890
Chris struggled with confidence

Perhaps he should try to stay on the bike then?

3 crashes????

(I know I fell off too, but at least I was fast :lol: )

[bradders]

domski - I thought fil & ali had bb?

[bradders]

Originally posted by NBs996
Phil (583 big bored) was losing a few meters on me down there too but was able to keep on my tail for the whole of both races because he seemed to be the better rider

Dont do yourslef down mate, from what I saw the results were about right.

[ali]

As much as I'd love to see an even playing field I have a feeling the horse has definitely bolted! Geoff's obviously in another league (especially at Cadwell) and I agree that he'd have stood a good chance of winning without the BB, but I'm sure Dave, Mike and Clint would've been a fair bit closer.

As it stands I can't see anyone going to Geoff to ask him to take the BB kit off his bike, the dealership entries probably have the cash/free labour to make it happen, and there may be a couple of 'privateers' willing to stump up the cash as well, so I reckon there'll be a good 5-6 680ie bikes out there in the next couple of rounds.

As for the standard 620ie vs 675 debate, there's no doubt the 620s are slightly quicker, but it's an amount that I'm sure the likes of Fil, Antony, me, etc can live with. I'd love to get a bit more out of my engine, but do I really want to blow £1k just to beat 1 or 2 people?

Ali

[Rally]

Originally posted by NBs996 but at the end of it all we'll know who the trophies SHOULD have been going to.

Which is exactly my thoughts when the awards were being handed out yesterday.

I think it is bad enough for the series that the awards will go to 'works' riders who are not the rank-and-file members for whom (I thought) the series was devised. What message does it send out to the members who may be considering racing in future years? "It's ok to enter the series but you have to realise that it is for the benefit of dealers to field experienced racers on far superior kit"

No, I think to allow 620 injected motors to have a further advantage is a BIG mistake.

[Rally]

Originally posted by ali
I have a feeling the horse has definitely bolted!


Disagree. Having one rider abuse the 'spirit' of the rules is exactly the right time for the series organisers to step in and say "No". If you leave it now then, naturally, the number of 680s will escalate and then the horse will have bolted.

[bradders]

so, is someone running a 620 BB then?

[Rally]

Have a look at the lap times and see if you guess who.

[Jon]

I think when you get to Snottyton, You will see the advantage of the big bore, what ever the rider.

[dickieducati]

i dont think you can go round changing things now, and all this talk about spirit is too late. everyone knew the rules when they entered and they could decided if they wanted to enter or not. i would love to know if geoff knew about the gentlemans agreement, if he did then its a pretty poor show, if not then he hasnt actually done anything wrong.
if a series is not a single model with no mods there will ALWAYS be differences. some people will always have more money and some people always have more ability. do we want to make it a hadicap series?

my bike is a bit quikers than tp's in a straight line. ok give me a weight penalty?
he has better ability. ok add some onto his instead?
my bellypans carbon. add to mine again?

i said it at the very start, this happens in 99% of motor sport i dont see the likes of honda, or suzuki offering to detune their bike to help out ducati in WSB.

[Jools]

Originally posted by NBs996
I'm with you Butch, there was a gentlemans agreement to keep things as even as possible and leave the 620 on standard bore.

The 583's were a little bit slower, but nothing too significant. I was just about able to reel in Andy (Team CK&AK) down the straight, but not by much, and Phil (583 big bored) was losing a few meters on me down there too but was able to keep on my tail for the whole of both races because he seemed to be the better rider.

I think the 620 bb's would be bad for the series, but at the end of it all we'll know who the trophies SHOULD have been going to, so if someone want to throw a shed load of money into boring a 620 then let them, but their victories will be hollow.

Excellent post Nick, and a pretty fair assessment of the power differences between the 674 carby big bore and the 620's. I have to tell you though, that the difference is more than a few metres. From a spectators point of view the difference is very clear, just on the short start/finish straight the 620's would stretch around 3 bike lengths over the carbed bikes. On circuits like Cadwell woodlands where there are more twists than straight bits the difference is not so marked, but get on a 'faster' circuit and the 620's will rule the roost.

So, sorry Butch, but it's not the even stevens match between the big bore and 620. I know that I am not alone in this view, that was the general agreement of everyone I was spectating with.

Of course rider skill has a large part to play, that's why CK & AK's team getting a 6th place with a standard carby 583 against the 'works' teams was such a good thing to watch.

There are a couple of people I know who are both potential entrants for next year, both of them said that the series wouldn't be worth doing unless you were on a 620, and now it seems you'll need a 680 to be really competitive, otherwise you'll just be running in the middle of the pack however good you are.

That's racing. People will always push the limits. Unfortunately, the people with the money and the dealer backing will ratchet this competitive edge up and I think you'll see a widening gap between these boys and the 'privateers' as the season develops.

[antonye]

Do what us SS riders are doing, and fold the results page over at the first "normal" entrant and there are your real results :lol:

[ericthered40]

What to do then, let the field split from day one, rather hijacking the series with extra cash. Or stand up now and just say no to one bike? (STOP THE ROT)
If you restrict this now then the riders that will undoubtedly start to turn in to the racers they are
will be right up there with the racers already sitting on the leading bikes ( A racer Andy 6th)
Showed what can be done on, (no offence but by your own admission a minger)
Let these racers do some work and have to stay in front of the new race members of club on similar power bikes.
I think that some of the riders in the field have the potential to get up with race ones. A racer is only someone with more experience and all the new guys got some of that yesterday. Do they need a bigger gap to bridge than rider ability?

(HOW BIG IS YOUR WALLET) No
(HOW BIG ARE YOUR B**S) Yes

Only my view but I like to think this is a series for the new racer to get up, do well and maybe just maybe nick a cup for all his hard work and bravery. It would be a shame if this chance is taken away by a loophole in the rules.
:):):)

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by ericthered40
What to do then, let the field split from day one, rather hijacking the series with extra cash. Or stand up now and just say no to one bike? (STOP THE ROT)
. It would be a shame if this chance is taken away by a loophole in the rules.
:):):)

firstly, i really do think there should be contact between the 'race committee' and geoff to see what geoff's understanding was.

if he was unaware of any gentlemans agreement who will foot the bill to return his bike to 620? and there is no loophole in the rules. the class limit is 680. period.

it also seems to be becoming a bit of a witch hunt, lets not devalue was was a very good win.

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by ericthered40
What to do then, let the field split from day one, rather hijacking the series with extra cash. Or stand up now and just say no to one bike? (STOP THE ROT)
. It would be a shame if this chance is taken away by a loophole in the rules.
:):):)

firstly, i really do think there should be contact between the 'race committee' and geoff to see what geoff's understanding was.

if he was unaware of any gentlemans agreement who will foot the bill to return his bike to 620? and there is no loophole in the rules. the class limit is 680. period.

it also seems to be becoming a bit of a witch hunt, lets not devalue what was a very good win.

[TP]

Originally posted by dickieducati
it also seems to be becoming a bit of a witch hunt, lets not devalue was was a very good win.

Hear hear Dickie, I think this thread is a bit dismissive of Geoffs two very good wins. Let's not devalue it.

[ericthered40]

Hey no witch hunt from me they were two fantastic rides for the wins
I think he is the man to beat a great rider.

I know the rules but why the gentlemen’s agreement on this in the first place?

My views were simply for the series as a hole and don’t count for **** anyway.

Nice ride in race two TP :):):puzzled:

[TP]

Originally posted by ericthered40
Nice ride in race two TP :):):puzzled:

Thanks Eric, I'll put my report up soon. I'm just watching the MotoGP on Eurosport 2 at the moment (250's) and thinking about a beer.

I'm a bit sore and stiff today so just taking it easy for now, I'll finish unloading the van later this afternoon.

Eric, just one point though. Your view is perfectly valid and counts just as much as anyone else.

[skidlids]

Oh look 4 classes on one grid

Class 1:- 583cc M600 & 600SS models
Class 2:- 674cc M600 & 600SS models with a bigbore kit
Class 3:- 620cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models
Class 4:- 680cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models with a big bore kit.

If points were awarded for positions in each class then there would be several in with a shout of the overall championship. That is 1st in each class scores maximum points etc etc.

If like other classes in racing half points were awarded for only a limited number of runners in each class then the overall champion would probably come from the class2 or class3 runners. As there are more running in these classes

So race winners will still be race winners but they may not be championship winners.

[ericthered40]

Thanks mate.

You’ve earned a good rest after that day’s racing.
Glad to see you took my advice and stayed on in that second race.

:lol::lol::lol:

[phoenix n max]

Originally posted by CK and AK
Just as a guide, our 583 bike at this point is putting out:

48bhp at the rear wheel

And my 583 is putting out a bit more but my best lap was 58.10 cos i'm a total utter novice.

Some 620's (or maybe they weren't now - i don't know) were passing me on the straight like i was tied to a tree. It will be even worse at Snetterton for my little bike.
That said even if i'd had a 999 I couldn't have gone any quicker for now :sniff:

It's not an even playing field - no , but i'm there to give it a go so i'm sticking to my 583 and just enjoy the rest of the season.

Just wave to me as you go past guys so I don't get lonely
;)

[TP]

Originally posted by ericthered40
Thanks mate.

You’ve earned a good rest after that day’s racing.
Glad to see you took my advice and stayed on in that second race.

:lol::lol::lol:

:lol:

I nearly didn't, ask Phill and Chris about my motocross moment at the old hairpin! It was a bit of a pants filling moment!

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by skidlids
Oh look 4 classes on one grid

Class 1:- 583cc M600 & 600SS models
Class 2:- 674cc M600 & 600SS models with a bigbore kit
Class 3:- 620cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models
Class 4:- 680cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models with a big bore kit.



except there is only 1 class in desmodue:

The motorcycle must be based on an air-cooled 2 Valve Ducati Twin cylinder produced since 1992, displacing no more than 675cc.

if anyone wants to run a smaller capacity its their choice.

[AK]

Originally posted by skidlids
Oh look 4 classes on one grid

Class 1:- 583cc M600 & 600SS models
Class 2:- 674cc M600 & 600SS models with a bigbore kit
Class 3:- 620cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models
Class 4:- 680cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models with a big bore kit.

If points were awarded for positions in each class then there would be several in with a shout of the overall championship. That is 1st in each class scores maximum points etc etc.

If like other classes in racing half points were awarded for only a limited number of runners in each class then the overall champion would probably come from the class2 or class3 runners. As there are more running in these classes

So race winners will still be race winners but they may not be championship winners.

Skids - thats exactly what Al & I were discussing on the way home yesterday.
We would like to keep our bike to the std 583, as the (much more expensive and totally useless) BB kit for the later engined M600's doesnt work.
However, even with dear mr Rossi on board, I think it would struggle to be anywhere in the 1st half of the field on any track with distance on the straights.

We cant afford a new bike, new engine, machining for barrells or whatever now, and have tied up over £350 in a 'kit' we cannot use, that reduces our already low BHP from 48 down to 39. Hence why the std engine.

MT/Race team management - over to you, your thoughts please, on what has been - and will be, a 'talking point'

[AK]

Originally posted by dickieducati

if anyone wants to run a smaller capacity its their choice.

unfortunately not mate - see my last post:(

The kit is pants:(

[moto748]

Well glad you kept it shiny side up, anyway! :)

[the old man]

This is getting out of hand (in my humble oppinion). I'm running a 620 (noisy cans and tweaked fueling) and came 5th and 4th (infront of Andrew). Does this make me a baddy? ********.

I read the rules like everyone else and made a decission about which would be the most competative solution. I spent every spare penny I had (of my own money, no sponsors, no outside help)(incidentally, I'm a locksmith, blue collar, a trade, I make my living driving arround in a van - just so you know) to build what I thought was the best bike I could for the money I could afford, and I rode my flaming socks off on Sunday. I wanted a top three finish but it didn't happen because I was beaten by people who, on the day were quicker than me.

This is racing, people want to win and if the rules permit it then someone will do it. It's like life, you make your decissions and you live with the concequences.

NOW.

On Friday I followed Geoff's (reputed) big bore and it wasn't significantly quicker down the straight than my 620. Yet on Sunday Geoff was over a second a lap quicker than anyone else - that's because on the day he was the better rider. It's as simple as that. Let me swap bikes with Geoff and I believe he would still have beaten me - on Sunday.

If you take out Geoff's bike and the Ducati Dealer bikes (incidentally the dealers can probably only run current Ducati kit, so they have virtually no choice over what they run) then the rest of the field (from me downwards) is a fairly well sorted mix of injected and carburetted bikes. To my mind that goes a long way to negating the big bore / 620 conspiracy.

Consider this. Even if Geoff does have the hottest bike on the grid, how much power do we seriously thing it makes, maybe 2 or 3 bhp up on a well prepared 620? On Saturday I raced in the SOT and beat an Aprillia Mille and a 996; both almost certainly putting out in excess of TWICE the power of my 620 sport. Geoff's lap time of Sunday would have got him a 4TH PLACE IN SOT - agains bike with over TWICE THE POWER.

Sunday's results have very little to do with power, they are about rider ability and that's the one comodity that cost each of us nothing. Short of a one make class like the R6 Cup, this is probably one of the closest technical classes any of us could race in. Instead of worrying about a handfull of bhp we should all leave Cadwell focused on inproving our ability - that's what I'm doing.

As an asside, I'm running a standard rear shock on my bike because I could not afford a fancy Ohlins / White Power etc. So I object most strongly to the unfair advantage possessed by those people who have most unsportingly gone out and spent huge amounts of money on exotic suspension components!

[ericthered40]

Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by ericthered40
Thanks mate.

You’ve earned a good rest after that day’s racing.
Glad to see you took my advice and stayed on in that second race.

:lol::lol::lol:

:lol:

I nearly didn't, ask Phill and Chris about my motocross moment at the old hairpin! It was a bit of a pants filling moment!

Is there a different kind of moment, other than pans filling? A large cork works if that’s any help. :o

[keefer]

Originally posted by the old man
This is getting out of hand (in my humble oppinion). I'm running a 620 (noisy cans and tweaked fueling) and came 5th and 4th (infront of Andrew). Does this make me a baddy? ********.

I read the rules like everyone else and made a decission about which would be the most competative solution. I spent every spare penny I had (of my own money, no sponsors, no outside help)(incidentally, I'm a locksmith, blue collar, a trade, I make my living driving arround in a van - just so you know) to build what I thought was the best bike I could for the money I could afford, and I rode my flaming socks off on Sunday. I wanted a top three finish but it didn't happen because I was beaten by people who, on the day were quicker than me.

This is racing, people want to win and if the rules permit it then someone will do it. It's like life, you make your decissions and you live with the concequences.

NOW.

On Friday I followed Geoff's (reputed) big bore and it wasn't significantly quicker down the straight than my 620. Yet on Sunday Geoff was over a second a lap quicker than anyone else - that's because on the day he was the better rider. It's as simple as that. Let me swap bikes with Geoff and I believe he would still have beaten me - on Sunday.

If you take out Geoff's bike and the Ducati Dealer bikes (incidentally the dealers can probably only run current Ducati kit, so they have virtually no choice over what they run) then the rest of the field (from me downwards) is a fairly well sorted mix of injected and carburetted bikes. To my mind that goes a long way to negating the big bore / 620 conspiracy.

Consider this. Even if Geoff does have the hottest bike on the grid, how much power do we seriously thing it makes, maybe 2 or 3 bhp up on a well prepared 620? On Saturday I raced in the SOT and beat an Aprillia Mille and a 996; both almost certainly putting out in excess of TWICE the power of my 620 sport. Geoff's lap time of Sunday would have got him a 4TH PLACE IN SOT - agains bike with over TWICE THE POWER.

Sunday's results have very little to do with power, they are about rider ability and that's the one comodity that cost each of us nothing. Short of a one make class like the R6 Cup, this is probably one of the closest technical classes any of us could race in. Instead of worrying about a handfull of bhp we should all leave Cadwell focused on inproving our ability - that's what I'm doing.

As an asside, I'm running a standard rear shock on my bike because I could not afford a fancy Ohlins / White Power etc. So I object most strongly to the unfair advantage possessed by those people who have most unsportingly gone out and spent huge amounts of money on exotic suspension components!

well said ;)

[Jools]

Like Eric I'm not racing, so my opinion counts for ****.

BUT.

I totally agree with Skidlids post, and (Domski's come to that). On the very first race of the series, there are effectively 4 classes. Already, after the first race of the series, there is some animosity creeping in.

I know that people hate those who get all self righteous, and smugly say "I told you so", but just take a look back to what me and several others were posting at the outset of this series. We were pleading with the organisers to make it a series for the "normal" DSC rider (to quote Antonye), by restricting it to 583 carburetted bikes on control tyres ONLY (well, I guess we got the tyres bit).

That way it would have been affordable, or at least within reach, for the masses (if any racing can be deemed affordable) and all the "works" teams would have had not significant advantage. OK, so if that had been the case they may not have entered at all, good thing or bad thing?

The results on Sunday may well have been the same if everyone was on 10 year old carbed SS's, but at least we'd have known the true extent of rider ability.

BTW: Fair play to 'the old man", that's the spirit under which the current rules should've been played out. Just an ordinary bloke putting in the commitment and riding his socks off. Well done on your 4th & 5th mate.

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by Jools]

[AK]

Ian - not taking anything away from you mate - you rode a blinding race:cool:
Andy reckoned even with any extra power, he would have had trouble getting round you:o

I think this thread needs to get back to butch's question tho........

[dickieducati]

very well said!



Originally posted by the old man
As an asside, I'm running a standard rear shock on my bike because I could not afford a fancy Ohlins / White Power etc. So I object most strongly to the unfair advantage possessed by those people who have most unsportingly gone out and spent huge amounts of money on exotic suspension components!


i'll swap my shock for some of your ability.;)

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by Jools
That way it would have been affordable, or at least within reach, for the masses (if any racing can be deemed affordable)

i think i'm right in saying that a number of competitors have got on the grid for under 3k a couple even under 2k?

[Borat]

It would appear that he with the most money wins

[phoenix n max]

Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by Jools
That way it would have been affordable, or at least within reach, for the masses (if any racing can be deemed affordable)

i think i'm right in saying that a number of competitors have got on the grid for under 3k a couple even under 2k?

Yes - me cos I used my road bike and added second hand sils, second hand belly pan, second hand rearsets. But I already had an Ohlins ( sorry Ian ) :o
Add to that incidentals a kitchen bowl and fibreglass and tyres etc and the rest was just time and some track practice expenses.

[dickieducati]

Originally posted by phoenix n max
Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by Jools
That way it would have been affordable, or at least within reach, for the masses (if any racing can be deemed affordable)

i think i'm right in saying that a number of competitors have got on the grid for under 3k a couple even under 2k?

Yes - me cos I used my road bike and added second hand sils, second hand belly pan, second hand rearsets. But I already had an Ohlins ( sorry Ian ) :o
Add to that incidentals a kitchen bowl and fibreglass and tyres etc and the rest was just time and some track practice expenses.

and are you having fun ????

[phoenix n max]

Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by phoenix n max
Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by Jools
That way it would have been affordable, or at least within reach, for the masses (if any racing can be deemed affordable)

i think i'm right in saying that a number of competitors have got on the grid for under 3k a couple even under 2k?

Yes - me cos I used my road bike and added second hand sils, second hand belly pan, second hand rearsets. But I already had an Ohlins ( sorry Ian ) :o
Add to that incidentals a kitchen bowl and fibreglass and tyres etc and the rest was just time and some track practice expenses.

and are you having fun ????

Had a great weekend thanks yes :)

[dickieducati]

EXACTLY.

that above all else is whats its all about.

[ericthered40]

Originally posted by roblott
It would appear that he with the most money wins

No it’s still down to the ability of the rider, but I think if Andy 583 was on Ian’s bike 620 he would have passed him. I also think if he was on Jeff’s bike and Jeff was on Andys, Jeff wouldn’t have won.

Ian rode his socks off but Andy rode with his pans off from were I was. hat off to you mate :lol::lol::lol:

[butch890]

Originally posted by CK and AK
Ian - not taking anything away from you mate - you rode a blinding race:cool:
Andy reckoned even with any extra power, he would have had trouble getting round you:o

I think this thread needs to get back to butch's question tho........
Calm down its only a thread dear!
Hats of to all the riders they ALL did a graet job,and i most certainly was not having a pop or trying to devalue anyones efforts at Cadwell but i really do think that with some carefull concideration this thorny matter can be resolved.
Time is not on our side though as i know for a fact that the phones at Baines's and Jhp will be busy tomorro.

[bradders]

one thing is for sure, if competing next year it will HAVE to be a 620 at least. Looking at guys far more capable than I on that short circuit struggling...

[ChrisBushell]

Ok folks, there have been some interesting comments made on this thread and I have had a couple of calls this afternoon from people with an interest in this discussion.

Rather than post my own personal views, I will be speaking to the Racing committee tomorrow and we will post up our considered reply, to the issues raised.

[skidlids]

Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by skidlids
Oh look 4 classes on one grid

Class 1:- 583cc M600 & 600SS models
Class 2:- 674cc M600 & 600SS models with a bigbore kit
Class 3:- 620cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models
Class 4:- 680cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models with a big bore kit.



except there is only 1 class in desmodue:

The motorcycle must be based on an air-cooled 2 Valve Ducati Twin cylinder produced since 1992, displacing no more than 675cc.

if anyone wants to run a smaller capacity its their choice.

Yes it is their choice a decision I made based on the original rules when the price and availability of bigbore kits was unknown with figures of £900 inc the VAT getting quoted for the kit.
I thought a cheap fun racing budget should be in the order of £2k to £2.5k as a starter class as I have run a Ducati in the SoT that sort of money.

So after reading the intended rules
(From the original rules as posted on the site 26th Oct 2004

This is a suggested rule book for a fun racing class intended to provide an inexpensive start for those who want to try their hand at racing but who want to stay loyal to Ducati when they do it. Modifications are allowed but primarily to allow older bikes to be competitive with the later versions.

Motorcycles to be based on Ducati 2 valve air cooled V-twin 600/620 built post 1992 and the maximum capacity allowed will be 675cc. )
I thought I would pay my £200 and put my name into the hat

Obviously I was very mistaken about what most consider a inexspensive start to racing.

Still I have made my decision and intend to stick with it, I was happy with my riding and the way my bike went and handled at Cadwell, if it wasn't for the brake problem I would have been the 2nd 583cc bike home and was looking at a 13th place in Race 1 lapping in the 52 second bracket and latter in the day still not trusting my brakes I was down into the 52s by the 2nd lap and I'm fairly certain if I could have done a few more laps each race I would have gone quicker.

I'm not worried about who won or who was 2nd or 3rd for that matter I was never going to be challenging them on a 583, I was just disapointed to come away with Zero points after 2 races after putting in some reasonable lap times on my budget racer.
When i'm happy that I have enough corner speed back, I'll be taking my 600 supersport machine back to Pembrey in an attempt to break my best lap time. To me its not about winning its about beating the rider I was yesterday, if I could do that every day of my life I may eventually consider myself fast, but compared to the pit crew I had yesterday I still have a fair way to go.

Although I do wonder what a 674 kit would have done for my lap times or how fast would I have lapped on a 620.
But I was still having fun apart from the crash and the two other occassions when the brake lever came back to the bars.
Roll on Combe as the 583 will be out there doing its best and hopefully this time I'll be able to stop in time before I run over all the crashers at Quarry. :roll:

[ChrisBushell]

Skids

Have to say well put mate!

[Rattler]

Originally posted by skidlids
Originally posted by dickieducati
Originally posted by skidlids
Oh look 4 classes on one grid

Class 1:- 583cc M600 & 600SS models
Class 2:- 674cc M600 & 600SS models with a bigbore kit
Class 3:- 620cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models
Class 4:- 680cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models with a big bore kit.



except there is only 1 class in desmodue:

The motorcycle must be based on an air-cooled 2 Valve Ducati Twin cylinder produced since 1992, displacing no more than 675cc.

if anyone wants to run a smaller capacity its their choice.

Yes it is their choice a decision I made based on the original rules when the price and availability of bigbore kits was unknown with figures of £900 inc the VAT getting quoted for the kit.
I thought a cheap fun racing budget should be in the order of £2k to £2.5k as a starter class as I have run a Ducati in the SoT that sort of money.

So after reading the intended rules
(From the original rules as posted on the site 26th Oct 2004

This is a suggested rule book for a fun racing class intended to provide an inexpensive start for those who want to try their hand at racing but who want to stay loyal to Ducati when they do it. Modifications are allowed but primarily to allow older bikes to be competitive with the later versions.

Motorcycles to be based on Ducati 2 valve air cooled V-twin 600/620 built post 1992 and the maximum capacity allowed will be 675cc. )
I thought I would pay my £200 and put my name into the hat

Obviously I was very mistaken about what most consider a inexspensive start to racing.

Still I have made my decision and intend to stick with it, I was happy with my riding and the way my bike went and handled at Cadwell, if it wasn't for the brake problem I would have been the 2nd 583cc bike home and was looking at a 13th place in Race 1 lapping in the 52 second bracket and latter in the day still not trusting my brakes I was down into the 52s by the 2nd lap and I'm fairly certain if I could have done a few more laps each race I would have gone quicker.

I'm not worried about who won or who was 2nd or 3rd for that matter I was never going to be challenging them on a 583, I was just disapointed to come away with Zero points after 2 races after putting in some reasonable lap times on my budget racer.
When i'm happy that I have enough corner speed back, I'll be taking my 600 supersport machine back to Pembrey in an attempt to break my best lap time. To me its not about winning its about beating the rider I was yesterday, if I could do that every day of my life I may eventually consider myself fast, but compared to the pit crew I had yesterday I still have a fair way to go.

Although I do wonder what a 674 kit would have done for my lap times or how fast would I have lapped on a 620.
But I was still having fun apart from the crash and the two other occassions when the brake lever came back to the bars.
Roll on Combe as the 583 will be out there doing its best and hopefully this time I'll be able to stop in time before I run over all the crashers at Quarry. :roll:

Fair comments Kev, but when you've got SIX other bikes !!!! - you're gonna be on a budget aren't you????? :o:o:o:o:o:o:lol::lol::lol:

[ChrisBushell]

Only six, he isn't trying. I got caught just before lunch today, when I was getting my old Jaguar out of the garage. I had forgotten that I had 3 engines hidden over the far side of it.

This resulted in "she who is sometimes obeyed" having a look in the shed and discovering the 5 frames that I have in there; apparently I now have 17 Ducati's, lunch was very quiet!

[skidlids]

Each to their own I say, we all have our own goals, mine was to put a bike on the track for less than £2k and have some fun at the same time as improving my riding. Almost there just couldn't quite keep the bike on the track.

[skidlids]

He meant 6 Ducati's Chris, not counting the 2 H0nda's, 2 Suzuki's, 1 Kwaker, 1 Harris Magnum and the R6 Yam proddy bike that one of my Sunday pit crew took to 21st in the Junior TT in 2003.

[NBs996]

I have two different opinions on this discussion, for two different reasons.

Opinion 1
It's disappointing that the top spots were being fought for by those who I would consider not the riders this series was intended for (my opinion, I'm entitled to it). Just imagine what it would have done for the DSC to have these guys out of the equation - that would've meant me, phil, tony and ali fighting the whole race for the top slots... isn't that what it was to be about? Dom was right earlier when he said it's looking like a commercial excercise for dealers, but also easy pickings for seasoned racers who have no history in the DSC.

Opinion 2
From a riders point of view I don't care too much for opinion 1. I'm a novice, that was my first race meet and I've only done 6 track days and been my own instructor for 99% of these. I was dreaming of a top ten finish and I got 7th/6th, being beaten only by those mentioned in opinion 1. So in my eyes I won both races, phil was a very VERY close second, and Ali/Tony each had a third.
So I'm well chuffed, because it just wasn't possible to do any better.

I can hardly walk today because I gave my knee a royal beating with a qualifying crash, but I don't care... I did something I never thought I'd be able to do, and now I'm my own hero :P

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by NBs996]

[Rattler]

Originally posted by NBs996
I have two different opinions on this discussion, for two different reasons.

Opinion 1
It's disappointing that the top spots were being fought for by those who I would consider not the riders this series was intended for (my opinion, I'm entitled to it). Just imagine what it would have done for the DSC to have these guys out of the equation - that would've meant me, phil, tony and ali fighting the whole race for the top slots... isn't that what it was to be about? Dom was right earlier when he said it's looking like a commercial excercise for dealers, but also easy pickings for seasoned racers who have no history in the DSC.

Opinion 2
From a riders point of view I don't care too much for opinion 1. I'm a novice, that was my first race meet and I've only done 6 track days and been my own instructor for 99% of these. I was dreaming of a top ten finish and I got 7th/6th, being beaten only by those mentioned in opinion 1. So in my eyes I won both races, phil was a very VERY close second, and Ali/Tony each had a third.
So I'm well chuffed, because it just wasn't possible to do any better.

I can hardly walk today because I gave my knee a royal beating with a qualifying crash, but I don't care... I did something I never thought I'd be able to do, and now I'm my own hero :P

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by NBs996]

At least my handlebars got in the top-ten !!!! ;)

[psychlist]

I'll be there on a 583 Monster having thrown the princely sum of about 2.5k to get EVERYTHING together at very short notice. That includes the bike, my licence, ACU/NewEra membership, all sundries and the only performance enhancements will be a DP air filter and dynojet kit, oh and no suspension mods.
I had the intention of seeing how this year goes and maybe getting a big bore done over the winter to start aiming at being competitive but it seems that my '99 bike wont take it so I'd have to replace the bike!?!
I am concerned that this NOVICE series was set out with an aim for "ordinary" club members (i watched them race and they're not ordinary in any meaning of the word, they were amazing ;) ) to get to grips with racing and, as such, I thought it would be "ordinary" club members winning prizes/trophies etc. not just to be satisfied with taking part.
I'm happy to do just that, take part, but will front running "club members" like "Old Man", NBS996, Phil, TP, Ali etc be content to "Just" win the "DSC Club Member's Cup"?
Or should they be the sort of person this series was meant to encourage, and by so doing, encourage the rest of us inexperienced "racers"?
I, for one, got so caught up with the atmosphere on Sunday that I can't wait to join them on the grid at Castle Combe, whatever performance I put in I'll be happy to have taken part, regardless of the result because it won't affect my racing with Lin and Mike anyway :P Doesnt make it "fair" for everyone though.

[andys 900ss]

I was consierding doing the DD next year, but on a tight budget.

At first it put me off, but I already have a bike totally suitable:

BIG-BORED to a 900ss

Andy;)

[Ian]

Interesting debate, just wanted to add one instruction, one opinion, and one observation:

1a) Weeksy do not add anything to this debate. PLEASE leave it, move on nothing to see here.

1b) Geoff would have won even if he was riding the duck- tape SS ;) Some of you may have missed the course commentator’s commentary, - think it was on your warm up lap, but he seemed to know Geoff, and mentioned a 47.something lap. From my (photographers) point of view I could not pan the camera at the right matched speed to get a good photo of him.

1c) The buzz and smiles around the paddock were great please don't spoil it, opinions are great and Nick and Kev (to name just 2 have posted some good points) but the post that contained the word "shallow" I have removed, - not on.

As Chris said the DDRC will be debating the subject (never a dull moment).

[clockwork orange]

Originally posted by psychlist
I'm happy to do just that, take part, but will front running "club members" like "Old Man", NBS996, Phil, TP, Ali etc be content to "Just" win the "DSC Club Member's Cup"?


I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that ALL participants had to be club members ????????:puzzled:

[Rally]

Originally posted by Ian
Geoff would have won even if he was riding the duck- tape SS

I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. It's more about being clear what the series is aimed to do. If it is a series to provide experienced racers an opportunity to show their talents then fine. If it is to allow 'works' entries to demonstrate technical excellence to within a whisker of what the rules allow then fine. But don't then try and make out that club members trying out racing for the first time are there for any other reason than to make up the numbers.

That isn't what I thought Desmodue was about.

The only reason that big bore kits were allowed at all was to try and even out the performance gap to the 620 engines and provide a more level playing field. To then allow those with 620 engines to re-establish that gap is just nonsense - plain and simple.

Sure, Geoff would have won anyway... but wouldn't all the novices like to compare their times and know that there was no other difference than talent? Know what can be achieved and aim for?

[stinkyracing]

I'm with the Old Man on this.... rules is rules, stop yer moanin, dont suppose anyone noticed whom among us was running PIRELLI DIABLO CORSA FRONT TYRES?? :borg:

[Monty]

Just to add my tuppence worth(for what it's worth).
1/ There were no 'works' bikes there. Geof paid for his bike-ok prepped for him by Baines Racing-I had a long chat with Geof, he has 2 other Ducati's a road and a track SPS, oh and a road Triumph as well-he is also a club member(as are all the entrants), but he doesn't post on this board.
The 2 Ducati London South bikes were ex loan monsters which the riders paid for and the workshop guys prepped in their own time. Dave Rileys bike was built at Ducati Coventry since as you know he works there, but it's his bike. Chris Butchers bike was paid for by his dad Graham, and prepared by both of them.
2/ When the rules were formulated(not by me) there were no 'Big Bore' kits available for the 620 bikes, there still aren't. However if you are prepared to invest time and money poring over piston catalogues it IS possible to find a piston which will give you a big bore-so basically you make your own, which is what Baines Racing did-there is nothing in the rules to say you cannot do this.
The 'Gentlemans agreement' stems from the fact that John Hackett being an engineer was also going down this route, and when he told us I asked him to put it on hold, which he agreed to do.
The reason that John was doing this is because he felt that a properly developed big bored 583 when equipped with flat slide carbs(which no-one has done yet) would walk away from a 620, and he wanted his bikes to be competitive.

Like I said, this is my perspective, the Race Team will discuss all of this and post a considered answer to this and the meaning of life and the universe............

John

[skidlids]

Originally posted by Monty
Like I said, this is my perspective, the Race Team will discuss all of this and post a considered answer to this and the meaning of life and the universe............

John

The Answer will be Ian Leah on the Triple '9' racing bike :lol:

[stinkyracing]

I rode a dealer entry, I finished 23rd and 21st respectivley. Our bike was a crash damaged demonstrator that I rebuilt in just three weeks, working in the evening and on my days off to complete.

The only modifications I could afford to make to the bike were a small airbox mod and a set of Remus DP pipes.

I managed to find a set of race fairings in the USA.

The bike suffered massive clutch slip on the straights and bottomed out in the old hairpin.

I ran stock road bike suspension and standard road bike gearing.

I would like to do everything within the rules of this series to make the bike more competitive.... however funds are limited.

The main point of this whole series is supposed to be about how good you felt whilst you were racing.

I had a smile on my face the whole weekend, I'm not fast and my bike is not fast. I still had fun.

I cant believe some of the things you have said in this thread. Jealousy is such a negative thing. It will tarnish your karma, it will make you fall off.... Geoff took the time in testing on Friday to show me around the circuit, he showed me were I could go faster and where I could brake later.

I didnt ask him, he just offered. That man is egoless.

Grow Up. :sing:

[stinkyracing]

Doh..... I think he wuz running standard Diablos my friend...

[stinkyracing]

So do you think it will get to the point that we have a technical scruiteneer on site, checking everyones machines? Dipping the tanks to check whom is running 110 RON race fuel, or whom is porting and polishing thier heads, or whom is running hi-lift camshafts etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Why cant we all just be shiny happy peolple?:burn::burn:

[stinkyracing]

Laters all....:biaggi:

[Rally]

Obviously I can't speak for everyone else who has written on this thread but for my own part I can tell you, categorically, that jealousy has nothing to do with it. Nor do I have any issue with any individual rider. I am merely expressing my view that the organisers should do the right thing for the series.

In section 1 of the rules it says: "Most modifications are only allowed for safety reasons or to allow older generations of the Desmo Due family of motorcycles to remain competitive with the latest machines." That is what everyone I've ever spoken to was under the impression was the rule. The fact that 1.1 doesn't go on to expressly disallow 620 engines changing their capacity coupled with the fact that in the very first race one competitor has done exactly that is a mistake. It is a loop hole/error/whatever you'd like to call it but it should be fixed.

[NBs996]

Originally posted by stinkyracing
I rode a dealer entry, I finished 23rd and 21st respectivley. Our bike was a crash damaged demonstrator that I rebuilt in just three weeks, working in the evening and on my days off to complete.

The only modifications I could afford to make to the bike were a small airbox mod and a set of Remus DP pipes.

I managed to find a set of race fairings in the USA.

The bike suffered massive clutch slip on the straights and bottomed out in the old hairpin.

I ran stock road bike suspension and standard road bike gearing.

I would like to do everything within the rules of this series to make the bike more competitive.... however funds are limited.


So if I've read that right... you've inherited a bike (and good on you for that), race prepped it yourself, on your own budget in your own time. "Dealer entry"? errr no mate, a lot of hard work from a private individual.

Originally posted by stinkyracing
The main point of this whole series is supposed to be about how good you felt whilst you were racing.

You must've read different promo material than that which attracted my entry... I'd love to see a copy!

Originally posted by stinkyracing
I cant believe some of the things you have said in this thread. Jealousy is such a negative thing. It will tarnish your karma, it will make you fall off.... Geoff took the time in testing on Friday to show me around the circuit, he showed me were I could go faster and where I could brake later.

I didnt ask him, he just offered. That man is egoless.

Grow Up. :sing:
Haven't noticed anyone been jealous, just posts asking the commitee to try and keep the series on the right track and offering an opinion why it could go, or has gone different to what was expected. And an ammendment to the rules in February regarding rider entry qualification seems to demonstrate that the race commitee agreed it was attracting the wrong riders.

If anyone has an opinion then they're entitled to be heard, if everyone says nothing, like you seem to be asking us to do, then the commitee won't be aware of any concerns - so there's nothing wrong with the comments in this thread.

nite nite

[Rally]

Originally posted by stinkyracing
So do you think it will get to the point that we have a technical scruiteneer on site, checking everyones machines? Dipping the tanks to check whom is running 110 RON race fuel, or whom is porting and polishing thier heads, or whom is running hi-lift camshafts etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc?


The rules are quite specific about all those things. If anyone was to contravine them then they would simply be cheating. If you are suggesting that anyone is cheating then put your money down and protest.

What we are talking about here is an area of the rule book that hasn't been made sufficiently clear leading to a contradiction between sections 1 and 1.1

Originally posted by stinkyracing
Why cant we all just be shiny happy peolple?:burn::burn:

I think it's better to get these things sorted as soon as they become apparent rather than let it fester as point of contention for the rest of the year (and future years).

[TP]

Originally posted by stinkyracing
The bike suffered massive clutch slip on the straights and bottomed out in the old hairpin.

Most of us running the 620's have suffered clutch slip at some point. An extra plate to preload the springs was put in mine and mw's and they don't slip anymore. It might work for you too.

Good luck.

TP

[stinkyracing]

Ok cool, didnt mean to offend, one day I will win..... I hope...... LOL:lol:

[misterpink]

sounds like everybody had a great time(except those that hurt themselves - recover quickly) i would have loved to have joined in-having raced in the RD/LC 350 series(showing my age). It is FUN, and hard work and expensive and if you can get your own personal reward great - i found that was how it started, but as you move up the field or do more races you will hunger for that top 10 finish and then a podium then number 1. This is natural, but don't loose that FUN/FEAR factor. Shame that it isn't just the old 600 engined bikes eligible - that would have been simple(and cheap)