View Full Version : DD Race outside of Uk
ChrisBushell
13-Jul-2005, 14:50
This is just a little glimmer at the moment, but would many of this years racers and prosepctive ones for next year be interested in a race outside of the UK?
I have already cracked the transport issue on the Giro so that isn't a problem. We would transport the bikes, riding gear, spares etc, so the riders can fly or drive in full cars.
It would mean paying up in full, probably in January, for a race to be held in May/June
I will now duck down behind the parapet!
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by ChrisBushell]
dickieducati
13-Jul-2005, 15:00
oh yes............
i'll have valencia, mugello or catalunya pleeeeeeease!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
ChrisBushell
13-Jul-2005, 15:03
Dickie,
You will have to keep your enthusiasm in check for a while, we have only just started on this one. If it comes to fruition I dont think that you will be disappointed
Steve M
13-Jul-2005, 15:06
I might struggle with the NW region rideout to this one - 2 went to Cadwell and 3 to Castle Combe :lol:
antonye
13-Jul-2005, 15:08
Yes please. Laguna Seca would be good, but I'm thinking the drive might be a bit far...
Steve M
13-Jul-2005, 15:11
Le Mans is quite close :)
Can't honestly imagine many takers on this if I am honest, the whole point of DD was cheap racing, which this doesn't sound like it will be, shipping bikes, gear, then getting yourself (and probably family, friends, mechanic) into Europe etc etc
Part of me thinks this is a great idea, but part of me also thinks that DD will end up with an "elite" (wealthy) few who can fund something like this.
DD should concentrate on growing in the UK doing more rounds, and getting more people on board IMO, walk before you can run.
Just my £0.02 worth :)
antonye
13-Jul-2005, 15:27
Making some assumptions here, but *most* of the racers have already paid for their bikes for this year, so next year they may have budget to either improve themselves, the bike, or do more rounds.
Something like this is no more expensive for me than going to, say, Castle Combe. Driving from home for 150 miles, I could be in France!
Ferries don't have to be expensive if you go off peak, in fact we'd be sure to get a cheaper deal as so many of us would be going.
If we can camp at the circuit then it's the same basic outlay as any other racing weekend.
I'm sure that the cost of entry wouldn't be any more expensive than a circuit here.
As for spectators? The way some people are moaning about the series I'm surprised they would even take notice!
dickieducati
13-Jul-2005, 15:28
just playing devils advocate here but for some; depending on where it is; its possibly not much more expensive than some of the uk meetings.
Desmondo
13-Jul-2005, 15:30
Must admit that I thought the same as JPM, but seeing as it doesn't concern me I thought I'd keep my nose out :)
antonye
13-Jul-2005, 15:31
Originally posted by Desmondo
Must admit that I thought the same as JPM, but seeing as it doesn't concern me I thought I'd keep my nose out :)
Since when has that ever stopped you... :lol:
DD has already got a North/South divide though, Cadwell is the most Northerly circuit the series visits, and most others are far south for say some DSC folks to travel to to spectate let alone compete.
So throwing in a foreign round which is yet further away from any Northern peeps only alienates them further, how many DD racers are currently from and live in the North?
Say DD did a round at Knockhill, would you all go? what about somewhere like Mondello Park? probably fairly convenient for people in the lakes etc to get to, not so great if you sitting in the smoke though?
Expand the series in the UK and generate interest at home, which may get other DSC regions involved.
antonye
13-Jul-2005, 15:38
As I said, going to the northern ones is no different to heading south, so asking if I would travel to Knockhill rather than France is a bit pointless - they're both a long way away and yes I would!
You may not know but the DD places were filled before the tracks we were riding on were announced. For all we knew it could have been made up of all tracks north of Watford.
The point being that maybe it's not the fact that the tracks are all southern based that means there are no northern entries...
ChrisBushell
13-Jul-2005, 15:42
Calm down boys, his is all part of the melting pot for options for DD next year.
We have an idea of the tracks that we think that the series wants to use next year and depending on feedback may well run more races next year than we have ths year.
The option of a race on the Continent is an idea at the moment and not ment to divide the Club. However we need to guage feelings from the entrants and spectators to see if it is worth persuing
I may be wide of the mark here, Chris will e-slap me if I'm wrong I'm sure, but in getting this series off the ground the organisers had to rely on a lot of support from the series sponsors to get some credibility so the race clubs would take us serioulsy and host us. I believe this has led to us to the tracks we are racing on this year more than any other factor.
Now that the series has proven itself as not only a full grid for the host club but the excellent support drawcard from all of you supporters I believe there is an opportunity to exercise a bit more leverage on circuit choice.
I don't think that a foreign race would mean that the possibility of a more northern race has been ruled out. But as the other thread showed, the DD racers and others who have suggested what tracks they would like to see in and out didn't include Croft.
You do need to go where the people who are paying cash want to go ... to an extent.
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by TP]
Jon - if you look at New Era's calendar, they don't use either Croft or Knockhill. So as Lily pointed out the other day that Cadwell is further north than Oulton, DD is in fact going to the most northern circuit possible twice this year.
So maybe give this north-south divide crap a rest maybe?
And if any of you know guys who race with Bemsee, their round at Croix is the first to be oversubscribed each year.
Le Croix also costs more than the equivalent of 3 meetings here too...........
:(
yes, we'd like to do it - but the budget????? - wow, prob too mucho for us!:o
It's a nice idea but I'm sure it'd be a no-go for me on the grounds of cost.
Sorry Ant but I couldn't agree less - no way would the cost be similar to travelling to a UK round! Not even going to bother doing the sums.
Also, how many DSCers would make the pilgrimage? This is a supposed to be a club event. Or would the general membership not object to just one round overseas?
deleted bit about licencing cos it was a rubbish thing to say!
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by NBs996]
Originally posted by lizzie
Jon - if you look at New Era's calendar, they don't use either Croft or Knockhill. So as Lily pointed out the other day that Cadwell is further north than Oulton, DD is in fact going to the most northern circuit possible twice this year.
So maybe give this north-south divide crap a rest maybe?
And if any of you know guys who race with Bemsee, their round at Croix is the first to be oversubscribed each year.
Jesus...
Can't say a thing can I? It's a very valid point
FFS!
I've always fancied travelling to this one after meeting a load of mad guys from over there last year at silverstone
http://www.erf.nu/index.asp?N=1358
I'm in.
Given the average cost of a weekend's racing the £50 odd for ferry tickets isn't going to make much difference. Would have to be a good track though. :D
Hi gang I'm new to dsc and DD seems to be very popular. But I have seen this happen in a couple of other clubs. It can all get out of control and split clubs apart. IE the have's and have not's. Please don't forget the club should benfit all.
antonye
13-Jul-2005, 16:31
Originally posted by NBs996
Sorry Ant but I couldn't agree less - no way would the cost be similar to travelling to a UK round! Not even going to bother doing the sums.
You should, you might be surprised!
Having been touring in France every year for the last 6 years, the only extra cost I can see would be a cheap ferry.
Any additional miles are offset by the cheaper petrol costs too.
But I'll leave it at that.
Originally posted by pibbow
Hi gang I'm new to dsc and DD seems to be very popular. But I have seen this happen in a couple of other clubs. It can all get out of control and split clubs apart. IE the have's and have not's. Please don't forget the club should benfit all.
Well said. why don't you wait and see the what and when and the how much.
Let's give Chris a chance eh? And if there is not enough who sign up, then fair enough. Let's not shot this down in flames before the idea has some basis of costs, location.
Could some one give me a good reason why we need to travel abroad when we have all the tracks we can handle here in Blighty. At the moment all the teams are committed to the DD series as it stands, getting up at 0200am to arrive at Stanstead for a "cheap" flight to X does'nt fill me with enthuiasum, still have to get the bikes and equipment to a base area as well or does that mean the spannermen and support crew have a few extra days off to get the kit across, while the riders get the flight ,surely the cost in time and effort will increase dramaticly or can some one convince me differantly. Dont like to **** on the fire but cost is an issue and the downside would be less support from the club members that have so gallantly supported the series so far.
4D
Originally posted by antonye
You should, you might be surprised!
ok, off the top of my head... last ferry I took to france was £125, and that was on the bike in october, not a car in mid summer.
My insurance would need upgrading for European use - wouldn't want to be in europe on TPO.
Breakdown cover would need upgrading for Euro use.
Medical insurance to buy - no, your E111 doesn't cover you the same as the NHS does.
Still not surprised ant! But don't leave it at that mate, there's no hostilities from me here... just provoking argument cos I know I might be wrong.
Rattler
13-Jul-2005, 16:48
Not really too bothered about a foreign DD race - unless its at one of the major Euro circuits, but then it'll probably be too expensive for a DD race anyway.
JPM - I diasagree with your North / South divide suggestion, as was already stated, individuals signed up before we knew the tracks.
In fact it needs more Northern entrants to compete and I don't think the reason they're not signing up is based solely on geography.
So c'mon, get yourself signed up, there's always space for you and Lil on the Rattler Estate for any Southern based races to keep costs down.
Tim
ChrisBushell
13-Jul-2005, 16:57
Ok
I have just been down to Spain for a weekends racing and the ferry cost me £60 for a van and two people, diesel was 83p a litre on the autoroute and what I am thinking of is probably close to London than Knockhill.
Costs will be taken into account, all we are trying to do is guage interest
phoenix n max
13-Jul-2005, 17:01
Originally posted by TP
But as the other thread showed, the DD racers and others who have suggested what tracks they would like to see in and out didn't include Croft.
Scuse me Sir - I mentioned Croft :P
Hmmm - well a bit of thought from my point of view - If I continue next year.
I'm in the midlands and Cadwell takes me 3 1/2 hours to get to. Brands takes me about the same if not a bit more. Snetterton takes 3 hours. My nearest circuit is Donington ( an hour) and Pembrey takes 3 hours for me. The fuel for transport is expensive yes but not quite as much as travelling costs to a european circuit towing a trailer/caravan or not.
However it would be nice for one of the rounds to be abroad and subject to having enough pennies then I would do it especially if kit and bikes are already dealt with.
The seires should and will continue next year I think and I also agree that it's gained some brownie points and rightly so but clubs do have limits as to where they can fit in extra races. We've been at Woodlands with the supermotos when New Era's big meet was the next 2 days at Mallory. We've been at Castle Combe in with Karters and we've been to Snetterton with KRC on their enduarnce weekend.
As far as I can see the next big meeting will be Donington when it's a superclub round so all and sundry will be there and it will be a really good showcase for the Desmo Due.
The series has the potential to really take off next year but it will need careful thought and planning.
Putting down constructive ideas on the website or in person is a good thing. It all needs to go into the pot, be stirred up and out of it will come a most excellent series ( not that it already isn't)
If the 583's get their slot then i'm in but hopefully not taking up my customary position tailending next year ;)
One further point - I fail to notice where this them and us attitude comes from. We are not elite, there's no secret agents anywhere as far as I can see and the DSC as a whole benefits with group rides to meetings, many friends made, it's own race series for gods sake and advertising. The series is open to anyone with the bottle to do it who is a DSC member with a few certain rules attached and that should remain.
Everyone - and I mean everyone has worked hard to make this series what it is thus far. 3 rounds in and even though I don't get a chance to watch the race it's always said it's good close racing. Everyone from whoever made the Tea at the inuagural meeting of this to the committee, the racers, their supporters, have put a lot of effort in.
This is Secret Squirrel signing off for now - Oops! :P
skidlids
13-Jul-2005, 17:03
Not for me, nice idea but beyond my budget, and as a Ex member of Bemsee and originally a mechanic for a couple of mates that raced with Bemsee and dis Le Croix I have a fair idea of the extra it will add to my budget.
Give me Oulton any day or pembrey as thats about the same distance for me and they are usually 2 day meetings with a circuit practice day on the Friday so 3 days on track for one lot of travelling, would also cater for any members the other side of the Seven bridge.
And I would also be happy to do Knockhill if it was a 2 day meet, but to far to travel for one day.
Originally posted by phoenix n max
Originally posted by TP
But as the other thread showed, the DD racers and others who have suggested what tracks they would like to see in and out didn't include Croft.
Scuse me Sir - I mentioned Croft :P
Oopsh!
Coat on ...
own goal!!!
what I am thinking of is probably close to London than Knockhill.
I think thats what JPM is talking about. Why is the centre of the universe London??
That apart, if the racers want it, go for it.
Ray
dickieducati
13-Jul-2005, 17:21
Originally posted by pibbow
Hi gang I'm new to dsc and DD seems to be very popular. But I have seen this happen in a couple of other clubs. It can all get out of control and split clubs apart. IE the have's and have not's. Please don't forget the club should benfit all.
i'm sure it wont. we just like to have a good old natter about any issues, real, hypothetical, or downright ridiculous! :lol::lol::lol:
definitely not a question of the have and the have nots. anyone in the club who wants to race in DD can. may have to chop their road bike in or use it as some have but thats the choice.
dickieducati
13-Jul-2005, 17:33
Originally posted by Ray
own goal!!!
what I am thinking of is probably close to London than Knockhill.
I think thats what JPM is talking about. Why is the centre of the universe London??
That apart, if the racers want it, go for it.
Ray
i never really understand all this 'why cant we do more up north? north/south divide' stuff. the fact of the matter is: the vast majority of the english population live in the south east region, nearly 15% in london alone. unfortunately thats the way its is. thats why the major business is here, the major airports, the major sea ports, the major;dare i say it circuits: brands, silverstone and depending where you draw the line donington.
while its a nice plan it really doesnt make any sense to get 90% of the people to go to the 10% of the circuits that are furthest away.
this is not meant to be anti north or anything like that its just facts.
i do 3+ hours to cadwell for DD and DSC trackdays and would happilly go to oulton park or futher if i needed to.
it just doesnt make sense to go to knockhill for instance just because its there.
psychlist
13-Jul-2005, 18:05
I'd be limited in my budget wherever we went so I'd like to see what Chris has to say on costs but the idea of racing on the continent is another world to the likes of me, I've never even done a trackday abroad!
As for this North/South debate I'm not the only racer living on the south coast, so a 10 mile trip to the ferry port (dunno what mileage would be the other end) plus ferry is possibly going to be competitive (I'll wait n see) with a 2.5 hour drive to Brands, 3 hour drive to Castle Combe, 5.5 hour drive to Snett or 6.5 hour drive to Cadwell. That's just the circuits we've had races on, are you asking me to travel further north to race so you dont have so far to come watch :puzzled:
How about Pembrey?
I cross water to get there, the locals speak a different language and hate the English - sounds like somewhere abroad to me....
Tin hat on boyo :P
Dickie,
Getting off topic. To a certain extent I agree with you. The centre of gravity of the club is below Watford gap AFAIK and it was very interesting to hear the membership numbers by region/area a few years ago at the AGM.
At the very least it helps RO's work out if the balance of active/passive membership in their region and the proportion of members they get out on regional stuff.
As for Clubby racing DD is pretty much a series with a national spread of circuits that draws a line at crossing into Scotland and Wales!!
Racers vote with their wallets, single circuit series survive if there is enough interest.
If there is support from the racers for a race abroad then off they go!!
The North South divide is maybe another thread?
Ray.
Andy#99
13-Jul-2005, 18:23
If there were to be a foreign round I doubt very much if it should be point-scoring, as there would probably be quite a number of non-attendees (on grounds of cost/time etc, all discussed here). As soon as any round is made "just for fun" you would then, no doubt, lose a load more runners and riders....and the whole thing collapses!
I personally would vote for adding Phillip Island and Laguna Seca to the callendar as I'm obsessed with these "hallowed" circuits! However, the reallity is that it all would be "in my dreams" and I'd probably struggle to muster the enthusiasm even to get to Knockhill (has anyone ever watched a BSB meeting from there where the field weren't being lashed with rain?).
No, no...I think adding, say, Oulton and one or two carefully chosen UK circuits would be the sensible thing to do for the benefit of the riders, their "hangers-on" and the DSC membership.....sorry!!!
Anyhow...this is all hyperthetical for me anyway as I feel a "marital-ban" coming on for the 2006 season!!!!!!!!!!!!!:(:(:(:(:(:(
Andy #99
Rattler
13-Jul-2005, 18:26
I'd rather see a DSC trackday abroad and not restrict this to DD'ers.
Tim
Originally posted by Rattler
I'd rather see a DSC trackday abroad and not restrict this to DD'ers.
Tim
I'd second that Tim:D
Much more likely to be a 'goer'
Have just had a chance to chat with Alan (who is at the moment up at Andy's) and both of them would agree with Skids & NB's comments.
Whilst this is a really good idea in principle, Al would not want to let his bike out of his sight - and def not want to 'not take all his spares/tools' etc as Fordie has already mentioned.
Neither of us are in particularly well paid jobs - nor do we have much holiday, but we do enjoy getting to most of the things the DSC does:)
For the last 2 years we have been unable to afford the time or the money to accompany Mark Hill to the Bemsee round at Croix - he leaves on the Weds, and doesnt return till late Sun or Monday. 4 or 5 days out of a precious 20 days annual holiday entitlement for one meeting has to be considered seriously by both of us.
Chris - please let us know who you travelled with, at that cost mate - we cant get anywhere near that price for a van with 2 or 3 bikes & 3 people on board:(
Just our 5p worth into the pot tho....
Looking forwards to hearing more info - and we are not discounting doing this totally, but at the present time would rather back a foreign trackday - or a 'no points scoring round'
Finally - you say 'expanding the series' for next year Chris?
We are just a little worried, as this seasons 6 meetings will have cost approx £600 alone in entries, without travelling, time off work on occasions for travelling, fuel to race etc (as well as the beers;) ) so newcomers (and some of existing owners/riders etc) might just find 10 or more rounds prohibitively expensive (without the introduction of an overseas race:o ) - and the series would no longer be the 'budget introduction to racing' it was originally aimed to be........in just one season......
Looking forwards to far more feedback & confirmation of info
C:) - and also Alan
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by CK and AK]
Originally posted by Rattler
I'd rather see a DSC trackday abroad and not restrict this to DD'ers.
Tim
Good shout Tim. An inclusive track day fine, but as for a DD round...
I'm with Fordie. What possible reason is there for taking the race series abroad when all the tracks you could possibly want are on the doorstep.
I also agree with JPM in the sense that if the DSC truly want's to be "The UK club for Today's Ducati Rider" then the race series should be firmly anchored in the UK. It would be much better to concentrate on spreading the club's appeal through racing on a wider variety of UK circuits and giving some value back to our northern friends for their subscription money. After all, if there weren't all of the grass roots members paying their subs into the club the DSC would never have been big enough to launch the race series in the first place, let's make sure every member gets an equal shout.
At the BMF we talked to a lot of potential members from all over the country about the success of the DD series and some were impressed enough to sign up based on that. A bit churlish and disingenuous to then say "Ahhh, but we're not coming round your way because it's too far and New Era don't use Croft or Knockhill anyway". What a slap in the face for regional organisers trying to raise interest in their part of the world.
OK so New Era doesn't use Croft or Knockhill, so does that mean it uses a tracks abroad then? If not, which club is hosting the proposed foreign round? If it's using someone other than New Era to host DD championship rounds then surely logic states that the DD championship could use New Era to host some rounds but other clubs host other rounds. It shouldn't take a large stretch of the imagination to work in circuits that are more geographically dispersed in this country should it?
I certainly wouldn't go to the expense and palaver of organising a foreign trip to watch a DD round, and I suspect that support from the UK would be inversally proportional to the distance from the UK and costs of the trip. I honestly can't see any positive reasons to do this other than to give the 3.5% of people in this club who are DD racers a bit more of a frisson and swagger to their racing. Unless of course somebody wants to start a Le Croix or Almeria region for the DSC
To be honest, from the tension in this thread the foreign round proposal seems to be another example of the DD series acting in a divisive and alienating way to the ordinary grass roots members when it should be inclusive.
I'm not levelling any criticism whatsoever at the current DD racers, only using DD as a way of refering to the whole championship package. With that caveat I would say "remember where you came from DD and don't turn your back on the folks that enable you to play". I may be making myself deeply unpopular, but someone's got to point up whenever DD is getting too big for it's boots and keep it real for the DSC members
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
I will now duck down behind the parapet!
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by ChrisBushell]
You okay behind there Chris?
I'm gobsmacked what I've read above by some of you.
Might as well damn Chris eh? Let's not forget, if it had not been for Chris and a few others, there would not be a DSC. Now that was a gem of an idea.
:flame:
Tim, overseas trackday, cool idea. Don't forget you're keys! :P
Originally posted by Ray
The North South divide is maybe another thread?
Ray.
Yes!
Originally posted by Jools
I'm not levelling any criticism whatsoever at the current DD racers, only using DD as a way of refering to the whole championship package.
So, who are you levelling this with Jools?
Originally posted by Flanks
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
I will now duck down behind the parapet!
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by ChrisBushell]
You okay behind there Chris?
I'm gobsmacked what I've read above by some of you.
Might as well damn Chris eh? Let's not forget, if it had not been for Chris and a few others, there would not be a DSC. Now that was a gem of an idea.
:flame:
Tim, overseas trackday, cool idea. Don't forget you're keys! :P
So even though Chris asked for opinion, you seem to be suggesting we should just keep quiet, let him go to the trouble of organising such an event, then just not turn up!
Or am I reading you wrong Flanks??
Desmondo
13-Jul-2005, 21:24
Originally posted by Flanks
Might as well damn Chris eh?
I've not seen any digs at Chris yet (unless I missed the), just the idea of a foreign round, wherever it may be.
I'm with Jools here, DD seems to be getting too big for its boots. It was a launch pad for new racers and now there's talk of foreign rounds? I'd be mightily disappointed if I had put all my efforts into my first year only to find it expanding beyond my means in the second year of racing.
Maybe my comments aren't welcome as I'm not a DD racer, but as Antonye said, it's not stopped me before :D
Originally posted by Flanks
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
I will now duck down behind the parapet!
You okay behind there Chris?
I'm gobsmacked what I've read above by some of you.
Flanks - Chris asked for opinions - therefore, there have been responses mate.
I trust what I have put isnt offensive to you?:puzzled: - in fact, I cannot find much in this thread that could be construed as offensive?
However, as has been covered before in other threads - I know that the comprehension of each persons written narrative can be construed by some as one thing, and by others as something totally different.
It all depends on how you read things.............:)
Originally posted by CK and AK
It all depends on how you read things.............:)
Here here :)
Just wanted to add:
we'd like to do this again next year - maybe with AK in the seat:o
BUT as long as the complete rules are available BEFORE signing up again
AND
The Rounds are noted (eg: a maximum number of meetings)
Plea from grass roots members here:
Keep it UK based
Keep it to 6 meetings for the year
We can still just then have time (and the money for our road bikes) to do other DSC things like meets etc!
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by CK and AK]
Originally posted by CK and AK
Just wanted to add:
blah... blah... blah...
I second that.
Originally posted by NBs996
Originally posted by CK and AK
Just wanted to add:
blah blah blah etc
I second that.
Thankyou dear!:cool:
edited, cos i thought you were taking the p to start with!:o
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by CK and AK]
I wouldn't dare!
...and you were not wrong about my riding skills!
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by NBs996]
Desmondo
13-Jul-2005, 21:49
Take cover, FRIENDLY FIRE!!!! :lol:
Originally posted by Rattler
I'd rather see a DSC trackday abroad and not restrict this to DD'ers.
Tim
Thats a good idea Tim:eureka:
I would have thought you could only gaurantee 50% of the dd's going for it. Makes far more commercial sence:cool:
skidlids
13-Jul-2005, 22:02
Originally posted by CK and AK
Just wanted to add:
we'd like to do this again next year - maybe with AK in the seat:o
BUT as long as the complete rules are available BEFORE signing up again
AND
The Rounds are noted (eg: a maximum number of meetings)
Plea from grass roots members here:
Keep it UK based
Keep it to 6 meetings for the year
We can still just then have time (and the money for our road bikes) to do other DSC things like meets etc!
You got my vote,
still I wouldn't mind the odd extra round by way of the odd two day meeting.
If I want more racing I can always either enter a North Glos mini twins or a Supersport 600 race on one of my other bikes funds permitting. But would like the DD series/championship to be a relatively cheap form of racing
What's the nearest track to the Ducati factory?
Why not get Ducati to sneak 36 x 620's out the back door and let us race (test ride) them :P
Then all you need is a flight for £50 and a some free accomodation.
I could afford that :D
Otherwise there is no way I could do it - and I only pay for entries and diesel etc.
I'm struggling to pay for these 6 rounds in England!! :(
I do like the idea very much, but for me it's out of reach.
dickieducati
13-Jul-2005, 22:54
SPANK MY ARSE AND CALL ME CHARLIE!
chris only asked a simple question:
"would many of this years racers and prosepctive ones for next year be interested in a race outside of the UK?"
a simple yes/no and maybe a comment would have done!
chris, as i see it, is just trying to throw ideas out there to improve the series no harm in that. if no one does it then it will collapse and stagnate.
any changes made to the format, number of rounds, venues etc will be done in association with the views of current and prospective racers no doubt.
lets not all start flapping about things that are not an issue yet.
regarding a comment from jools:
"To be honest, from the tension in this thread the foreign round proposal seems to be another example of the DD series acting in a divisive and alienating way to the ordinary grass roots members when it should be inclusive."
while i respect you jools, and believe most of your comments are spot on, i think you a wide of the mark here.
DD is only adding to the DSC. this thread was a simple question, no more, no less. everything that is connected with DD is in ADDITION to all the other stuff the club does. if someone doesnt want to go to a DD round to watch or take part, fine, they can carry on with all the usual DSC stuff they do. its still there. not everything the club does has to be "inclusive", some people want to do rideouts others dont; some people like meeting for drinks others dont; some dont want to do trackdays others do. this goes for all the clubs activities.
you choose what you want to do, you leave the ones you dont. its called freedom of choice.
"alienating way to the ordinary grass roots members" ?
what is a grass roots member anyway?
i do what i can and more importanly what i want in the club.
only been on one rideout,
do the essex meets every now and then,
done DSC trackdays
done factory trip
do lunchtime drinks with DSC'ers
do xmas drinks
do AGM's
do DD.
dont know if that makes me grass roots or not? but even if i didnt ride in DD i would just view it as another string to the DSC bow that i could either join in or not.
Well, I've been outside with Phillc swapping bits around on the bikes and I'm really glad I missed this thread 'developing'
Has anyone considered that:
1. Chris is asking for expressions of interest to see if it's worth his while spending the time to investigate so he can come back with the details that are being requested?
2. That levelling accusations of 'DD' getting too big for it's boots and forgetting the grass roots might be a little OTT considering he's only asking to see if anyone's interested?
3. That carrying on like this when someone is prepared to give a lot of time and effort setting this up is just bloody rude and ungrateful?
Can I ask someone to please stop me if I think of volunteering to organise something for this club and remind me what can happen!
Jeez ...
I'm keen to keep racing next year but it's stuff like this thread and threads before it that make me think I should go elsewhere.
Anyone want a sorted 620?
:mad:
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by TP]
the old man
13-Jul-2005, 23:04
Some more thoughts / comments for the pot.
I think the original spirit of DD was to provide affordable racing with a limited number of rounds, catering for those with limited wallets and other commit (eg, family, work, other social etc) which precluded attending a typical 12 - 14 club rounds in a season.
With the above in mind my personal view is that a foreighn round is will probably be too expensive in time and money for me - but on the surface a nice idea.
Nort / South divide? If you exclude Croft & Knockhill, all the other tracks - Oulton, Mallory, Donnington, Cadwell - are centered arround the centre of the UK, with Brands, Snetterton, Pembrey poking out the edges somewhat. So no concious n / s divide me thinks.
I'm in favour of sticking to about 6 rounds next year (for all the reasons mentioned above). However one way to get in extra rounds for those that want to / have the time / have the money while not penalising those of us who can't do more would be to base championship points on say any six rounds. So if you do more than six meeting only your six best results count to championship points. Means I can go on holiday and not drop two championship places because I missed Snetterton!
I would be interested in doing more longer races in conjunction with KRC - but I prefer endurance to sprint racing.
Dickie/TP... eh??
A simple yes/no would be very little help. If answering 'no' then it should be backed up with 'why' and opened up for discussion so as to allow problems to be addressed if possible.
None of the answers to the original question have been off the mark (I don't think!). The responses that might be considered border-line don't have anything to do with the original question so aren't aimed at Mr B in any way and shouldn't be considered a black mark on a valid discussion!
The fact that we've been discussing the subject can only be a good thing - it's brought out a few worthy points, namely trackday rather than race.
Am I wrong??
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by NBs996]
clockwork orange
13-Jul-2005, 23:49
What's the point in worrying about problems/issues at this stage if only 5 people are even interested ??????
The point is to find out whether 5 are interested or 25. If the latter, then would be the time to address possible problems before a final go/no go decision is made.
Clubs generally mean different things to different people. It is possible to enjoy some aspects while choosing not to get involved in others (trackdays and warp speed rideouts in my case). However, I don't believe this club has ever been about everyone doing everything. So if you don't like/enjoy an aspect of the clubs activities, then CHOOSE NOT TO GET INVOLVED in that aspect. And leave alone those that are.
North/South - what is the split on Members currently Lizzie ??? And remember this is a democracy folks - majority rule
OK, off my hobby horse now :devil::devil:
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by clockwork orange]
Scooter916
14-Jul-2005, 00:57
Depnding on location cost etc, i may be tempted to bin the fammily holiday, Bugger it it may even be the fammily holiday.
provisional yes
Glyn
Originally posted by NBs996
Originally posted by Flanks
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
I will now duck down behind the parapet!
[Edited on 13-7-2005 by ChrisBushell]
You okay behind there Chris?
I'm gobsmacked what I've read above by some of you.
Might as well damn Chris eh? Let's not forget, if it had not been for Chris and a few others, there would not be a DSC. Now that was a gem of an idea.
:flame:
Tim, overseas trackday, cool idea. Don't forget you're keys! :P
So even though Chris asked for opinion, you seem to be suggesting we should just keep quiet, let him go to the trouble of organising such an event, then just not turn up!
Or am I reading you wrong Flanks??
Fair points by Nick, CK and Jamie. Maybe I misunderstood the the replies. Just seemed some of the later postings before mine had a tone to them. Again my mistake if I'm wrong. But i guess I'm not the only 1 who thought this?
Indeed. Chris asks what people think Nick, about racing 1 race abroad. But to side track about whose up north or south, what costs what, underlining thought that DD racers need to 'swagger', or big themselves up. or the club is 2 tier. Those comments were not needed, something TP quite rightly says. A simple, yay or nay was all was needed!
TP's posts sums up really how I feel i guess. Never 1 for expressing what i feel, as well as him :lol:
Originally posted by TP
Has anyone considered that:
1. Chris is asking for expressions of interest to see if it's worth his while spending the time to investigate so he can come back with the details that are being requested?
2. That levelling accusations of 'DD' getting too big for it's boots and forgetting the grass roots might be a little OTT considering he's only asking to see if anyone's interested?
3. That carrying on like this when someone is prepared to give a lot of time and effort setting this up is just bloody rude and ungrateful?
Imola is the closest track CK.
Jamie, who dare try to shut you up........ shorty :P
Soz :D
[Edited on 14-7-2005 by Flanks]
simple No from me....................( cost related if it can be prooved its affordable within reason then perhaps..)
I would like the energies of the DD MT and the racers directed on the rules for next year with regard to the class split or engine mods etc...........( sorry but im anxious to start my savings plan NOW lol )
Im with CK 6- 8 rounds max keep it affordable * joke *, to allow others to get into racing at a grass roots level ..IMHO its what the DD was developed for....if certain DD racers want a more affluent series or want to expand there career in racing then they can move to Mini Twins or the like.!!! Keep the DD for the DSC and for the members that want to enter a relativley "novice " and " affordable "series albeit a competative one.
Phil
[Edited on 14-7-2005 by fil2]
To borrow a phrase from Dibble "Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear" where do I start. Maybe in chronological order.
Flanks. You point out that Chris Bushell and others put a lot of their time and effort into getting the DSC started in the first place. That's true. To their eternal credit they also set up the management structure to support the whole ethos of the club as a club run for the benefit of all of it's members rather than pander to their own egos. They had the courage to let the club develop organically into what it is today and, with a lot of nurturing, this club developed into the best Ducati related club in the UK - perhaps the world.
We all value the benefits that we receive from the club, but more than that, the friendships that each one of us has formed through the club, the generosity of spirit and cameraderie that's evident at any DSC event you care to name is something very, very special and is unique to this club. This rare and unique club spirit may have come about through nature or nuture but, however it came into being, it is a very fragile ecosystem that we should all strive to protect.
You ask, if not the DD racers, who I am levelling my opinions towards. Well, the answer is DD itself, not any specific individual. You may notice that I have only mentioned Chris for the first time in the above paragraph, and only then in response to your point about his involvement in the genesis of the DSC.
So what do I mean about "DD itself". At the AGM in January, I raised concerns that whilst DD was a great idea, we, the members, needed to be careful that while a race series is very exciting, sexy and seductive, by definition only a small percentage of members would actually be involved and that it should not come to dominate everything in the club.
I've been involved (or very close to) motorsport of some kind all my adult life and I have seen at first hand some of the negatives. By definition, the people who get most involved in motorsport are highly competitive individuals and I've seen people who have been inseperable friends become mortal enemies over minor incidents or allegations of cheating. I have seen the bitter feuds that have started over interpretation of rules and regulations and I have seen the corrosiveness of the human spirit when a bit of competition creeps in.
When you start introducing competition into a club like the DSC it is all too easy to create some sort of Frankenstein's Monster (that would be the S4R then - to get the monster puns out of the way) that would start with the best intentions, but actually start from the very begining with imperfections. A Frankenstein's monster that quickly develops a mind of it's own, gets beyond the control of it's creators and rampages through the fragile ecosystem that is the DSC.
I say yet again that I am not on a crusade against DD, I think the series is a great idea, the racing is fantastic and I would be amongst the racers myself (and may yet be) as soon as I get Mrs Jools to agree. However, I would like to think that even if I was on the inside of DD I would still fight against "the monster" developing a life of it's own and causing a trail of destruction through the club we all love.
Thankfully, we are not at that stage, but DD has already been at the centre of many disputes, it has already led to the departure of some DSC members and, if we are all honest, is the single item (outside the Vman debate) that causes so much friction within the club.
Which brings me onto Dickie's point about me being wide of the mark with my comments about the "tension that exists within this thread".
This tension was not of my making. JPM had already opened a North/South debate and been jumped on for his troubles. Normally inoffensive people like Lizzie had been prompted to post remarks such as "So maybe give this north-south divide crap a rest maybe?" and for JPM to reply "Jesus...Can't say a thing can I? It's a very valid point FFS!". Various appeals to calm down had already been made before I voiced my opinion.
Dickie also countered my comments about "the grass roots" DSC member, and what one of those is anyway? A very good question!
In truth, there is no typical grass roots member, we have people whose interests are in long distance touring, we have people who get the most out of rideouts, we have people who enjoy DSC organised events such as the mega-meets, we have people who are track day fanatics, we have people who are avid race fans and travel afar to watch MotoGP and WSB, we have people who enjoy evening meets for a chat and a pint, we have hardcore long-distance riders as well as people whose enjoyment of Ducati ownership comes from polishing their bike. It's a very broad church. To truly be "The UK club for today's ducati rider" the DSC needs to be very careful to retain this broad appeal.
Of course we also have the DD entrants, but I say again, that is only 35 people out of 1000. This is not levelled at any personality involved in DD as an entrant, or any DD organiser but there is a perception (and quite a valid one in my view) that DD gets a disproportionate amount of the clubs attention given that it only accounts for 3.5% of the membership. I would go so far as to say it is the only one of the clubs activities (outside of the web site) that gets any 'official' organisation, all the rest of the clubs activities still go on, just as Dickie states, but they happen organically by members taking the initiative to sort out things for themselves and making things happen themselves. This is true for most rideouts, it is true even for 'flagship' events such as the BMF.
It would be nice to see some events other than DD get the same amount of 'official' attention. There are loads of things that could do with this DSC support - how about an "officially" organised tour to WDW 2006 to take just one example that would appeal to a different membership sector? Or starting a DSC organised UKDW as was suggested last year - perhaps a cross between a weekend's camping, beer, barbeque, bands and entertainment with a trackday thrown in?
Thanks for your remarks about your respect for my opinions though Dickie. As somebody who always tries to take an objective, rational and well argued approach to voicing my opinion I appreciate that.
I re-itterate that I am not against DD, I just want to make sure that it doesn't become the "Frankenstein's Monster" that ultimately tears the heart out of this great club.
I did not, and will not, personalise this argument and it's a shame that Flanks and especially TP have construed my remarks as a personal attack against Chris or anybody else.
I am also somebody who is willing to volunteer my time to help this club in any way that I can and I am well aware of how thankless a task it can be. I compromised my own ride at nearly every rideout last year to ensure that the stragglers at the back were not left behind and became a slower, less confident rider myself - as a result of not getting enough practise at the sharp end. I help out with the BMF every single year and support every DSC event that I can (including DD). And I have already volunteered to do much more for the club regions if my services are required.
So, I hope TP, that your remarks about "carrying on like this and just being bloody rude and ungrateful" were not levelled at me. However, since the statement in your reply was closely coupled to my remarks about "DD getting to big for it's boots" it looks as though they were.
As has been stated by others, Chris asked for opinions (he surely wasn't inviting opinions solely from DD entrants was he?) and I voiced my opinions in what I hope was a mature, considered and rational way. You will know from my entire posting history on this board that I am not given to ranting, so I make no apologies for voicing my opinions in the way that I do and I don't consider that I need any lessons in civility from you or anyone else.
ChrisBushell
14-Jul-2005, 10:45
Folks,
Dont worry I have caught any haymakers yet and am still feeling rather perky.
I have to agree with the comments that Dickie, TP, Flanks, etc have put up, in that I put this thread up to assess interest before the real hard work starts.
From what I have seen on the message board and the responses that have come direct to me, we have a general level of interest that would tend to suggest that this one will be a goer.
I am mindfull of Skids and The Old Man's comments about not making it complusory (Say best 6 out of 7 rounds to count or whatever) and the necessity that we have the rules and proposed schedule out before the Brands Hatch round. Accordingly the ground work has to be done now for next year.
I have heard back from the race organiser and will be speaking with them in the next couple of days to ensure that it is something that can happen (insurance, Club membership, etc) before we really get stuck into things.
I would re-iterate that I am mindfull of costs and would look to ensure that the event is going to be ecenomically viable for everyone. The other thing is that people will have at least 6 months warning on this, to enable them to save up to do it. Also where we are looking at is a damn site closer to England than Italy (estimate is 4.5 hours driving from Calais), I just checked and London to Knockhill comes up at over 8 hours!.
I realise that there are a lot of ifs and buts at the moment; however I see it as an opportunity to experience something different through the Club, being expansive rather than inward looking, growing rather than shrinking what we do. Subject to more information there will be a lot for general members to do than just watch a DD race.
I dont understand where all this is comming from....how is it perceived that " DD " is taking over..........ALL the other events are going ahead all over subscribed with future events in the planning. Rideouts are still going ahead with more and more attending..!!!
The DD is part of the club....for all to attend in what capacity they can.
I Know its probably not the case but speaking for myself and purely from a persoan view i feel as though so much force is building against the DD ...??? Fordie Kelly and myself have put so much into the DD series as averyone else has and it saddens me to think that it is causing all this !....i thought people really enjoyed the racing........
Where is all this comming from.......... ??
antonye
14-Jul-2005, 10:49
http://www.ecom-secure.co.uk/dsc/misc/computer_user.gif
multi600
14-Jul-2005, 10:58
Simple yes from me
Andy#99
14-Jul-2005, 11:41
Originally posted by antonye
http://www.ecom-secure.co.uk/dsc/misc/computer_user.gif
Antonye, where the dickens did you get that "film"? It absolutely, completely and utterly sums-up this thread!!!!
Anyhow...taking an "average" of the above posts, the whole business looks like receiving a resounding, well..."maybe" at best, or "over my dead body" at worst from the racers. I can't see where Chris has interpreted all this chitter/chatter as "a goer" (Sorry Chris!), and indeed as someone who is reeling at the cost of competing thus far (the crash at Snetterton didn't help, I know) I would plead with the organizers not to go abroad for a points-scoring round, or to blinkin' Knockhill for that matter....eeeeuuughhh!
As for a "best of, say six out of seven" rounds...I don't know of any other race series organized on that basis. I thought racing was all about consistency and all that, encouraging actually finishing races.
Andy #99
.
Originally posted by Andy#99
As for a "best of, say six out of seven" rounds...I don't know of any other race series organized on that basis. I thought racing was all about consistency and all that, encouraging actually finishing races.
Andy #99
.
The Bemsee nationwide is based on that method. They have 18 rounds based on 9 weekends of racing and your best 16 count towards the championship. They are the series that have a round in France.
As for a "best of, say six out of seven" rounds...I don't know of any other race series organized on that basis. I thought racing was all about consistency and all that, encouraging actually finishing races.
Andy #99
gets my vote ..all rounds counts..........:D
dickieducati
14-Jul-2005, 11:56
seeing as we are going off on another tangent................
i actually like the idea of best 7 out of 8.
i missed one this year due to a holiday and i just think it gives a bit of leeway for people that may have other committments too.
Originally posted by dickieducati
seeing as we are going off on another tangent................
i actually like the idea of best 7 out of 8.
i missed one this year due to a holiday and i just think it gives a bit of leeway for people that may have other committments too.
what happens if you attend 8 meeting and get a DNF due to crash or engine issue's in 1 meet...can you drop that result..??
dickieducati
14-Jul-2005, 12:18
Originally posted by fil2
Originally posted by dickieducati
seeing as we are going off on another tangent................
i actually like the idea of best 7 out of 8.
i missed one this year due to a holiday and i just think it gives a bit of leeway for people that may have other committments too.
what happens if you attend 8 meeting and get a DNF due to crash or engine issue's in 1 meet...can you drop that result..??
i guess so.
i see what you are saying that it doesnt reward consistency.
maybe if dates are sorted out early enough as they look like they will be it wont be an issue
Andy#99
14-Jul-2005, 13:10
. [/quote]
The Bemsee nationwide is based on that method. They have 18 rounds based on 9 weekends of racing and your best 16 count towards the championship. They are the series that have a round in France. [/quote]
Okay, okay, I knew there'd be a smart-a#se out there to prove me wrong...thats what comes of talking out of your back-side....so, I stand corrected! Anyway...looks like I've opened a complete new can of worms...see what you've gone and done now Chris?????
...and...I'll stand on what I said, and fil concurred with...ALL rounds must count...unless, that is, there's a foreign round and I decide not to attend....OH GAWD...its a bleedin' NIGHTMARE!
I'm signing off the subject now and sitting back to watch the exchange of ammo!
Andy #99
ChrisBushell
14-Jul-2005, 13:11
The idea of say 6 out of 7 results counting goes back years and I think was even in F1 until the early 60s.
This situation is realy aimed at hefact that you can have a DNF and your season is finished. I our case it would allow someone to be on holiday or have to do something with the family and still bein with a chance of going for a pot at the end of the year.
Remember at present it is an idea and not a definate
Jools - well said - sums up my feelings entirely.
I have total respect for everyone out there doing DD, but it's not the be all and end all of the DSC.
I've had a bad year this year with work commitments and such like and haven't made a single BHC rideout, some because I was away and some because they were rideouts to DD events which took an entire day. Not being funny, but my idea of a rideout is blat breakie, blat, lunch, blat etc... not necessarily riding to a circuit just to watch others have a good time.
On the points system, I think it's a good idea, F1 did indeed use it up until the late 80s, think they did best 11 from 16 at that time. The only problem I can recall was that it was possible (and did happen) that a competitor could rack up the most points and still lose the championship...
Cheers
Martin
Andy#99
14-Jul-2005, 16:41
[quote][i]
blah blah blah "but it's not the be all and end all of the DSC".
YES IT IS!!!! :lol:
Me thinks I'll duck NOW!
Andy #99
skidlids
14-Jul-2005, 17:56
In the R6 cup it is also possible for the riders to drop their worse two results, be it DNF's of DNS's
And that s a fairly high profile race series.
As such I would find that perfectly acceptable.
Thanfully I can report that I do not feel that any other DSC'ers treat me any differently to before due to my participation in Desmo Due.
I was actually racing a Ducati before I joined the DSC, after a couple of years of racing my 916 the extra costs led to a drop off in my entries and the overdraft to grow.
DD as provided me with a affordable series on a relatively cheap bike which has allowed me to carry on enjoying my racing and with a greater level of support from specators than I had for most of my years of club racing, the noteable exceptions being the race meeting at Castle Combe where members of the Hants, Oxon & Berks and Glos regions turned up in numbers.
Long may it continue and I hope others get a chance to appreciate what it has to offer those that want to race, no matter wher its held. Me i'll even race on airfield circuits if it means I'm getting to race. All paid for out of my own pocket with ne rewards expected other than huge dollops of enjoyment.
Kev
Originally posted by ChrisBushell
This situation is realy aimed at hefact that you can have a DNF and your season is finished.
...or a DNF a DNS and a DSQ!!
I have the full set :D
Can we add some more rounds to this season? Just for me to enter so I can make up some ground?
:lol:
psychlist
14-Jul-2005, 22:37
I hope it works out affordable for me too cos if there isn't as full a grid as most other rounds cos other bods cant afford it then I'll be able to come last AND score more points than I will I have done all season :o
:o wow, this makes for some reading.
Couple of things, - this is just a message board, - although in saying that it is great to see the passion and commitment to this going around a track thing. :)
Andy#99 mate - you are in up to your neck in this message board thing now :D who would of thought it?
There is an issue that the DD has taken up an enormous amount of time and effort, - but I guess if we are truly honest this is a learning year for all of us so we should have expected it. I greatly admire Chris, Monty and Michael for their persistence and doggedness to stick at it and keep coming up with ideas.
Please everybody remember that (to my knowledge) this is race series is unique in allowing or even asking for so much rider participation. Ask for 10 opinions and you could invite 10 different ones. I guess we all have to accept majority rule or do we go to just dishing out what we think is best? I hope and do not see why it should ever get to that.
This message board is also a double edged sword in that it is great for the "club spirit" but at times it appears to pull people apart.
The club cannot divide because of DD, - and DD riders perhaps have a duty (wrong word but you get my meaning) to keep themselves involved with other areas of the club, - I also think we as a club need to make an effort to involve those members who have joined becuase of DD, - we are far more than just the race series
The best thing about this club; Club spirit. What is club spirit? Sharing an enjoyment for something Ducati related and helping each other. We are a community, we do not have to agree on everything, - actually I think we should all disagree from time to time, - but the key to a community working is what gets put in, not what gets taken out. Keep coming up with the ideas, but be prepared to put in a bit of effort yourself if you want one of your ideas to come to anything. And perhaps remember that we are an evolving community, we should never stand still, and we should never pull up the draw bridge, - we should always encourage member input, - but the MT always has to be mindful of the silent majority and the clubs responsibility to them.
psychlist
15-Jul-2005, 02:13
Originally posted by Ian
- and DD riders perhaps have a duty (wrong word but you get my meaning) to keep themselves involved with other areas of the club, -
I might try that some time ;)
skidlids
15-Jul-2005, 02:45
Originally posted by psychlist
Originally posted by Ian
- and DD riders perhaps have a duty (wrong word but you get my meaning) to keep themselves involved with other areas of the club, -
I might try that some time ;)
Me to :D
clockwork orange
15-Jul-2005, 22:41
Jools - well put in your (book length!) post - took all the words out of my mouth and said it better than I ever could.
Antonye - where did you get it then :devil:
ChrisBushell
16-Jul-2005, 11:43
Ok folks,
I am going to call time on this thread now. I have nearly all of the info that I needed to gather and will be putting an e-mail round the DD entrants on Monday to guage their feelings on the latest cunning plan!
Chris
It it such a cunning plan that you could stick a tail on it and call it a weazle?!!
Originally posted by clockwork orange
Jools - well put in your (book length!) post - took all the words out of my mouth and said it better than I ever could.
Antonye - where did you get it then :devil:
Cheers Clockwork, Ian and Urban. I know that I'm not alone in my concern about the potential dangers of DD splitting the club (or at least becoming heavily biased towards racing) from the DSC'ers that I speak to face to face. I just feel I have to shout a warning each time I feel the slightest tendency for DD to go off on a track of it's own and leave the majority of folks behind. Nice to know I'm not in a minority of one.
As for the book length post, sorry, but that's what you get when a windbag learns to touch type ;)
bradders
16-Jul-2005, 21:16
Originally posted by Jools
Nice to know I'm not in a minority of one.
plenty more where you came from dude...and with a similar views, just some folks dont want to hear it:(
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