faith in the justice system ?

[uncle porry]

hats off to the judge who threw out the case against the para`s charged with war crimes in iraq....nearly restores my faith in the justice system .......:)

[888heaven]

I dont know what were doing there in the first place weve probably killed more Iraqis than Sadam.
unfortunately Politicians never seemed to have read History when they where at uni otherwise they would have more understanding of Arabic cultures and realised how difficult lasting stability is to maintain in this region.
Politicians havent even to look back that far experience in WW1 should have given them some clues to the instability of the region.
Sadam may not have been the best tyrant in the world but I dont see many happy Iraqis on Tv lately.
Unfortunately going in with Yanks is like hanging out with Kate Moss while trying to give up coke.
the yanks have no uderstanding of history mainly because they have non of there own and what they did inherit they shot a bit like Afgans and Iraqis and the Vietnamese.
:mad:

[berto]

I didn't realise you got GOOD tyrants......:saint:

[HW]

Everything is relative Berto ... there are degrees of badness! :devil:

[ScottyB]

888 Heaven.

And what the Iraq'is under his regime were happy were they????

Those that spoke out against him did not have much to worry about, happiness was the least of their worries as they were executed, or beaten to within inches of their lives. That is if they were lucky, worse still they were forced to watch as their wives and daughters were raped in front of them, i would rather take the execution route myself.

Let's not get all political here, the guy is a loose cannon, any man who uses Biological and Chemical weapons on his own people and the Kurds killing upwards of 500,000 has serious issues.

I saw first hand his mess after the first gulf war, we should have finished the job then instead of giving him time to regroup.

Granted the yanks are useless, everyone knows that "all the gear and no idea" as we used to say.

They have little or no experience of FIBUA (Fighting in built up areas) There solution is to throw numbers at the problem which does nothing when half the soldiers they are sending are Home guard and reservists.

The region was always going to be a melting pot, there are so many factions of different tribes fighting for control. With people willing to die for their own cause. The Military big wigs knew this long before they went over there, only problem for them now is the folks back home are seeing it due to news coverage.

Why do you think the news coverage has died off lately???

Due to influence by the Military top brass?

They do not want people back home knowing how many suicide bombers have blown themselves up and how many road side bombs have exploded killing troops troops in the process.

As a point of interest i have close friends and a brother still serving over there so am slightly biased, In september in 1 week alone yes 1 week there was 113 seperate bombing incidents in Iraq!!!

I can't recall those figures every being shown on Sky News!!!

Anyway back on topic. Hats off to the judge who binned the case against the 3 Para boys. Any tour over there is stressfull enough without the worry of having to face a court marshall when you return for false charges.

It was proven that the Iraqi witnesses had spoken on several occasions in their statements about financial gain from their willingness to give evidence..........why it took for the case to come in front of the chief military judge before it was binned is what the issue should be here.

I am not stupid either though and have the balls to say that the Para's were by no means blameless, our troops have to remain professional at all times whilst over there and not lower themselves to the same level as the Yanks. Easier said than done when the compound you are living in is attacked by mortar fire most nights and you lose close mates, mates you regard as brothers having been through thick and thin with you. Who can blame them for losing it in times of stress???

The prosecution should be slapped about a bit for even taking matters this far with unreliable and clearly on the take witnesses.

:flame:

What our boys need is the support of the folks back home.

They do not care if you agree with the governments stance on it, half of them don't agree with the way it is being handled but they are over there doing a job, most of them would love to see stability so that they can hand over to the locals and allow them to get on with it, and get back home to their loved ones.

Regards

ScottyB

[berto]

Well said Scotty.......who told you all that...s******:devil:

[Tonio600]

Wouldn't your army be better at home? :(

[ScottyB]

Of course Tonio,

What would be even better was if the white flag waving French war dodgers backed us up for a change:D

Oh how such short memories they have, they would all be speaking German if it wasn't for the British bailing them out.:smug:

[Tonio600]

Replying's not worth it.

[ScottyB]

But you did reply.............???

I will get my hook and bait back later when it passes out the other end.:D

[guest1]

Whilst I can understand why the emotions run high on this, part of the comments following the dismissal concerned the fact that the basic procedures following the death were not carried out (collection of evidence). Perhaps if the procedures had have been carried out then it wouldn't have reached court but stayed in the theatre.

[ScottyB]

Exactly Alan,

The RMP's were found to be missing the big picture as you rightly point out, with huge gaps in the evidence chain. Any other case like this would have been rail roaded from the off

[stef]

The guys are soldier..their own choice.
give them support ?
would you also have given Hitler's army some support, back in the 40s, if you had been german?
the army is controlled by the government. signing in is accepting that fact, and showing 100% trust and approval in the good intentions of your government. You cant feel sorry for the poor guys on the field. they chose to be there. They are responsible adults.
Irak should have been left to sort itself out, their way.

[fil2]

Originally posted by stef
The guys are soldier..their own choice.
give them support ?
would you also have given Hitler's army some support, back in the 40s, if you had been german?
the army is controlled by the government. signing in is accepting that fact, and showing 100% trust and approval in the good intentions of your government. You cant feel sorry for the poor guys on the field. they chose to be there. They are responsible adults.
Irak should have been left to sort itself out, their way.

So as long as they keep it in house we dont care what they do.??................

[stef]

So long as the gov. keeps it legitimate, honest and just (if that is what you meant).
I'll give full support to the army when they are guided on behalf of the nation. not when they behave like muppets.
unfortunately, the world is such that it would be very naive to think that any govt is going to do the right thing.

[stef]

Sorry, i think i misunderstood your post..
as long as they keep it in house ?
that is a little hypocritical coming from the nations that
1- created the mess in the first place, by arbitrarely creating 1 country where there was so many nations.
2- armed and trained SH
3- armed and pushed the Kurds to revolt, against said SH.
4- starved irak for a good 10 years.
5- i could go on and on and on...
I 'd say enough damage was done over and undercover as it was. divide to rule. it is still the simple things that work.

[888heaven]

Let's not get all political here, the guy is a loose cannon, any man who uses Biological and Chemical weapons on his own people and the Kurds killing upwards of 500,000 has serious issues.

Scotty
Didnt our government test secret biological programes on our troops at Portendown and what about the nuclear testing in the Pacific.
Unfortunately History has a nasty habit of repeating itself one of the main underlying reasons Hitler failed to overthrow Stalin was his Generals lack of understanding of the people liberated from Stalins yoke had they not treated them to the same or worse brutality that Stalin had dished out they may well have joined the Germans in greater numbers but instead joined partisan movement just the same as is happening in Iraq.
I have no gripe with our armed forces and for what they have to do I wouldnt for all the tea in china.
Yes we should have finished it the first time and had Margaret Thatcher still been in charge she would have told the Yanks to keep their nerve and finish the job but unfortunately we had John Major the wet weekend.
And we must not forget that this was all before
Osma Binladen where there is now a cause to fight for against the infidel.
the bottom line is we had no mandate this time or has now been shown no WMD,all we have this time is the sad loss of our own troops and a uknown number of innocent Iraqis blown up by car bombs which they never had when SH was in charge,they also had food and good medical care before sanctions.
ian.

[Davieravie]

I think its time to pass round the pipe of peace ;)

[YMFB]

Originally posted by 888heaven

Let's not get all political here, the guy is a loose cannon, any man who uses Biological and Chemical weapons on his own people and the Kurds killing upwards of 500,000 has serious issues.

Scotty
Didnt our government test secret biological programes on our troops at Portendown and what about the nuclear testing in the Pacific.
Unfortunately History has a nasty habit of repeating itself one of the main underlying reasons Hitler failed to overthrow Stalin was his Generals lack of understanding of the people liberated from Stalins yoke had they not treated them to the same or worse brutality that Stalin had dished out they may well have joined the Germans in greater numbers but instead joined partisan movement just the same as is happening in Iraq.
I have no gripe with our armed forces and for what they have to do I wouldnt for all the tea in china.
Yes we should have finished it the first time and had Margaret Thatcher still been in charge she would have told the Yanks to keep their nerve and finish the job but unfortunately we had John Major the wet weekend.
And we must not forget that this was all before
Osma Binladen where there is now a cause to fight for against the infidel.
the bottom line is we had no mandate this time or has now been shown no WMD,all we have this time is the sad loss of our own troops and a uknown number of innocent Iraqis blown up by car bombs which they never had when SH was in charge,they also had food and good medical care before sanctions.
ian.

Im no expert but I believe that the incidents you refer to was (Porton Down), which was carried out on British troops, maybe a few hundred or even a thousand, distasteful as it was is insignificant to the mass murder by Saddam & his cousin Chemical Ali.

The rights or wrongs of the second Gulf war can be argued but there can be no doubt that Iraq and its neighbours are better off without him. Its a shame that he wasnt eliminated earlier.

Whats the point about all the history, it happened, I think comparing Saddam with Hitler or any other past mass murderer is a waste of time they were evil - end of. But for the future maybe crackpot dictators like Mugabe might think twice before going too mad because he knows that if he oversteps the line someone like the UK or US might step in and fire his sorry ass.

Personally (IMHO) once the decision has been taken to go in, as a country we should wholeheartidly support our "Troops" anyone who doesnt should be ashamed of themselves and consider whether they want to be in our "team"

And for those history buffs further up the post dont for get its poppy time !!

[stef]

as far as i know, the decision to go to war wasnt taken by the nation, not even by the majority of the ruling majority. it wasnt supported by the international community either. that makes it unlawful inmy books.

as far as the numbers advanced for the people SH had killed, he has yet to be trialed for it. There is more propaganda in there thanwe can ever imagine. what is for sure, is that the number he has killed will never equate the number of vietnamese killed only 10 or 15 years eariler by the US. remember the legacy of agent orange ! that's not that far back.

At the end of the day, SH wasnt taking any **** from his people. The country was in such a fractured state that this was one way to rule it. i am not saying it was the most human, but he had order.
And he is not, by far, the most brutal dictator living today. people seem to forget that. north korea springs to mind ?

so lets forget about the humanitarian b*llsh*t. the US dont do humanitarian. they could have saved 3 times the number of innocents, for a tenth of the cost by going into ethiopia. i'd like to see them do that on a similar scale, then we'll talk about humanitarian missions.

[ScottyB]

Here Here YMFB,

I could not have said it better myself!

Regards

ScottyB

[Rushjob]

Stef
Some interesting comments regarding the performance and motivation of our armed forces as well as the situation in Iraq....
Just out of curiosity, what experience do you have in putting your safety / life at risk - just so we can judge the basis on which some of your comments are made.
Like do you actually know first hand what you're on about or are you another armchair theorist?
I've got mates over there, one who's just got back and another soon to go out... I'm glad there are still some of us over here who show support for them.

[stef]

glad you found the comments interesting, but unfortunately, they are not points of veiw, they are facts. Therefore, it does not really matter who puts them to you.
As for myself, I have made personal carreer choices to avoid ANY involvement with millitary programs. In my line of work, i have been asked to develop a few pieces of kit not designed to help grow vegetables, i am sure you know what i mean. I turned those down despite good career prospects, and at the risk of p***g my employers off. But i took that decision as a responsible adult. If my country/familly was threatened, i'd be very quick to sign in the forces. This is not the case.

There are other jobs out there than professional mercenary.
that's just to answer your personal attack/comment on myself, which i feel is taking the discussion to a level we shouldnt reach on this forum. its all about biking.

lets drop it, unless we have an intelligent discussion, rather than a competition to see who can p*ss the furthest.

[uncle porry]

its politicians who send our troops to wars, we might agree or disagree with the reasons for the war our troops are being sent to, but, we have to support our armed forces in what ever conflict they are in cause if the **** hit the fan and our country was at threat, who would be the first to put their lives on the line for us & our families ? our armed forces, thats who...

[888heaven]

Stef
quote
'Its all about biking'
yes it may well be but if the only thing posted on here was have you seen the latest Ducati it would soon loose its freshness whenever I log on after a boring day at work you can always find something interesting/different/irreverent/usefull/helpfull/funny,and above all non PC.
In a world where eating bacon and celebrating being a christain looks like being a criminal offence this site is breath of fresh air and long may it continue

yes ive ive got my poppys as both my grandfathers where in the Tank Cor in Africa during WW2 and survived and I miss their amazing stories.
Ian

[stef]

Originally posted by 888heaven
Stef
quote
'Its all about biking'
yes it may well be but if the only thing posted on here was have you seen the latest Ducati it would soon loose its freshness whenever I log on after a boring day at work you can always find something interesting/different/irreverent/usefull/helpfull/funny,and above all non PC.
In a world where eating bacon and celebrating being a christain looks like being a criminal offence this site is breath of fresh air and long may it continue

yes ive ive got my poppys as both my grandfathers where in the Tank Cor in Africa during WW2 and survived and I miss their amazing stories.
Ian

(on soldiers being on the front line, if the sh*t hits the fan..)
Fair point, but they exceeded their role on this one. The country was never at risk. even with insight, we were never threathened.
The troops still had a choice to go. basically, your friends prefered to see a little country and bomb a few inocent civilians for the "good of the country", rather than to see a court martial for refusing to obey orders. I personally would have taken the court, if i had been involved in there in the first place. This is very harsh and simplistic, but thats the way i feel about it. There is a lot of difference beween two soldiers when one of them is fighting a just war, and the other one isnt.
and if becoming a professional soldier means giving up your personal judgemnent about whats right or wrong... what can i say, they chose it ! they have decided to become just a tool, in my eyes. Hence the dilemna for becoming a soldier.

(by your reasoning, we would have to buy poppies for the SS)


I also had two grand parent serving (and lost the last one 2 months ago). I have a lot of respect for what they did, but they were never professional soldiers.
They signed in when the country was threatened. they beleived in what they were fighting for. Big difference. And i admire what they fought for, not just the fact that they fought.. would you admire yours if they had been SS's ???

oh, and i agree that the forum should be able to talk about other things than bikes, but the thread just seem to go off a little on personal attacks, rather than keeping it to the subject.

(when was eating bacon and being a christian a crime ????)

[philthy]

Just my 2d worth

I don't know anyone ( literally ) who thought we should go to war.

Most people seem to think the war is to do with oil.

I don't think there is any oil in Ethiopia.

War turns people into animals. The only point of living is to survive another day. I used to work with a WW2 veteran who shot and killed two japanese prisoners - and then ate their food rations.

If we do not stop the tide of Islamic Fundamentalism then in your lifetime it may well be against the law to be a Christian.

Generally the population of middle eastern countries seems to be extremely excitable and unstable. Which means that whatever we do they will think we are wrong.

We must support our servicemen and women to the hilt while we are in Iraq.
However that support should be conditional on not allowing the bullying elements in our services to be allowed to corrupt their colleagues efforts towards peace.

I honestly believe that this government appears to think that it is above English and International law and has brought disgrace to our countrys name throughout the world.

Toodle pip

Phil

[Edited on 6-11-2005 by philthy]

[Paul James]

Just a couple of points to think on:

The whole thing took off as a result of Mr. B. Liars knowing falsification of inteligence regarding the threat posed to us by Iraq. His toadying to that nutter Bush was unprecedented and should have seen him sacked !!.

If the job needed doing it should have been finished first time round, I for one would have been mightilly p*ssed off if I'd lost kin in the first war to then see it all kick off again.

Has anyone mentioned the ongoing cost to the long suffering tax payer to conduct a war not wanted by the majority of UK citizens ?.

When do we go and sort out Mugabe ?

Why has the UK ID card issue gone very quiet since the London bombings ?.

Is our "Prime Minister" fit to be out on his own ?

[stef]

without wanting to go off topic.
the first gulf war itself was a bit of a joke. It isnt a well advertised fact, but SH had rights to the oil fields exploted by kuwait, as they were originally iraki teritory. It also hasnt been advertised that SH attempted to negociate peacefully over those field, and threw a few ultimatum at them. They chose to ignore those, because of US backing. before SH invaded kuwait, he was granted a green light by the US. It was an inter arabic conflict with which they didnt want any involvement. It's only when george snr realised that he and a few members of his cabinet owned the company exploiting those contested fields that it all kicked off.

Of course, the first thing we heard of it here was that SH had unlawfully invaded kuwait.

it just makes you realise how sick the world we live in is.

[888heaven]

If you look at any of the Dictators around the world in the last 30 years+ they have all been funded or backed by either the British the Yanks or the Russians it all depended who was in favour, and on what side they thought they could get best out of any backing.
Both Us and the Yanks backed SH when it suited them when they where fighting the Iranians and turned a blind eye to chemical warfare then, perhaps because our Industries helped there chemical production.


(when was eating bacon and being a christian a crime ????)

When were lights a crime, oh dear oh dear heads in sand syndrome lets not upset the jolly foreigner.

A report by officers at Waveney District Council based in Lowestoft Suffolk,says funding lights does not fit with the councils core values of equality and diversity because Christmas focuses only on the Christian faith.


This is a Christian Country if those who come over here dont like our laws and religion then they should Bugger back off to a country that suits their religion.
I dont see the French liking their imigration policys at the moment and it wont be long before it spreads over here.
just remember where the tube bombers were recriuted Mosques.

[TP]

(on soldiers being on the front line, if the sh*t hits the fan..)
Fair point, but they exceeded their role on this one. The country was never at risk. even with insight, we were never threathened.
The troops still had a choice to go. basically, your friends prefered to see a little country and bomb a few inocent civilians for the "good of the country", rather than to see a court martial for refusing to obey orders. I personally would have taken the court, if i had been involved in there in the first place. This is very harsh and simplistic, but thats the way i feel about it. There is a lot of difference beween two soldiers when one of them is fighting a just war, and the other one isnt.
and if becoming a professional soldier means giving up your personal judgemnent about whats right or wrong... what can i say, they chose it ! they have decided to become just a tool, in my eyes. Hence the dilemna for becoming a soldier.


Stef, I'm absolutely flabbergasted by your view on this. It must be so nice living in your black and white world where decisions are so easy. If this is your stance then there is no point having a discussion with you on this because your world has different realities.

But I wish you wouldn't denigrate the efforts of soldiers like this, you have no idea how much choice they have or how much information they have to base any decision on in the first place. A Private soldier really is a mushroom, kept in the dark .... I'm sure you know the rest.

[stef]

I agree completely on your last point, which is why i would not want to become one !
If i did became one, i might as well get lobotomised. a little self-inflicted, if you ask me !
but each to their own.

As for my world being black and white (again, a personal attack ! thats 2 already in this thread.. can we get a little more original ??), i have just been thought what was right and wrong. it's not that difficult. A lot of french soldiers laid on the train tracks when the sh*t hit the fan with the algerian independence war...I am not inventing anything. Ali refused to go, maybe that brings it closer to home.

the problem is for me that those soldiers have given up their freedom of judgment. willingly. I am not saying they are wrong, i am just not feeling sorry for what they are going through.

[stef]

This is a Christian Country if those who come over here dont like our laws and religion then they should Bugger back off to a country that suits their religion.
I dont see the French liking their imigration policys at the moment and it wont be long before it spreads over here.
just remember where the tube bombers were recriuted Mosques. [/quote]

erm.. i'll just ignore this..and just advise you to a history book which covers more than the last two centuries !
no offence meant.

[TP]

Originally posted by stef
As for my world being black and white (again, a personal attack ! thats 2 already in this thread.. can we get a little more original ??),

Me saying your world is black and white is far from a personal attack. I was a soldier for 7 years so I know what I went through, and I never saw active service so I can only imagine the additional pressure these poor *******s have to go through in short timeframes. They don't have the benefit of lengthy debate and thought processes and are often performing at less than peak physical conditions due to lack of sleep, stress etc ...

But I digress - this isn't going anywhere and I really don't like this thread.

TP bowing out ....

[ScottyB]

Gracefull TP, like your style.

I am like a coiled spring on this one but am choosing to keep it zipped for the sake of all.

Regards

ScottyB

[gaz3014]

Originally posted by stef
I agree completely on your last point, which is why i would not want to become one !
If i did became one, i might as well get lobotomised. a little self-inflicted, if you ask me !
but each to their own.

As for my world being black and white (again, a personal attack ! thats 2 already in this thread.. can we get a little more original ??), i have just been thought what was right and wrong. it's not that difficult. A lot of french soldiers laid on the train tracks when the sh*t hit the fan with the algerian independence war...I am not inventing anything. Ali refused to go, maybe that brings it closer to home.

the problem is for me that those soldiers have given up their freedom of judgment. willingly. I am not saying they are wrong, i am just not feeling sorry for what they are going through.






I cant believe what I've just read!!! Lobotomised!! Now your taking the p$*"s!!!

I'm still serving, and have been involved in both of the 'gulf wars'. I was based in Basra, and saw for myself the mess that the country is in. Having been involved with local people, the vast majority of people wanted and needed us there, and the only people who didn't had something to loose, ie the criminal element.
Yes, I felt like a piggy in the middle, but something had to be done.

As for relying on the international community (UN) to do something, is this the same group who stood by and watch as Bosnia and the rest of the Balkans were torn apart, and millions murdered?????

Sorry guys, but this has wound me up, and some people need to wake-up, and smell the coffee!!!! There is life outside of there mushrooms!!!

:mad::mad:

This is Gaz signing off to get his Teddy back!!!!!

[Edited on 7-11-2005 by gaz3014]

[Paul James]

Originally posted by TP
Originally posted by stef
As for my world being black and white (again, a personal attack ! thats 2 already in this thread.. can we get a little more original ??),

Me saying your world is black and white is far from a personal attack. I was a soldier for 7 years so I know what I went through, and I never saw active service so I can only imagine the additional pressure these poor *******s have to go through in short timeframes. They don't have the benefit of lengthy debate and thought processes and are often performing at less than peak physical conditions due to lack of sleep, stress etc ...

But I digress - this isn't going anywhere and I really don't like this thread.

TP bowing out ....

At the risk of sounding contentious I feel the need to point out that we don't have conscription in this country so all in the forces are there by choice. From what I can make of it the lifestyle is pretty reasonable during times of peace and at the end of the day if you sign up for the job you do have to accept that you'll have to actually do it one day. I sympathise with the fact that they have been used innapropriately on this occasion but anyone with one eye open should be in fear of what B.Liar will dream up next in direct opposition to what this country wants.

I don't feel that what went on was warranted it was just another show of "strength" which has backfired and caused us all far more danger from terrorist activities.

[stef]

i am sorry, gaz and TP, if i p*ssed on your chips. i dont mean to wind you up, even if that's what i end up doing. I know i can sound like a right tw*t sometimes. I guess we both feel very strongly about this.

one of the things i hate the most is being manipulated and lied to. This has happened more than once (including the first gulf round, i was in favour of going in). since then, i guess i have become a little too analytical/cynical/bitter for my own good. and reading a little more about the situation than what you get on sky news just enfuriates me.

I appreciate what you are saying, about helping the people on the field. but do you feel that the quality of life in Irak is better now than it was 13 years ago ? I work with a well qualified iraki dicident who left home when it started stinking, in 90. he got back last year, but didnt stay very long, and soon returned to the UK. unfortunately, all the good that you are trying to achieve and the help that your are giving people is needed due to the destructive actions from another soldier/platton/army and 10 years of sanctions.. dont get me started on the food for oil program.
13 years on, irak is in a worse state than ever. a sadistic ruler was removed, to be replaced by a corrupt government, mob rule, and a massive debt. That's now.. lets wait a couple of years until another sadistic ruler steps in, and its back to square one. you cant bomb democracy into a nation. historically, it has NEVER worked. whatever you feel you are achieving on the field, i am not sure it translate very well on a global scale.

mind you.. private US companies are having a good time sharing the reconstruction contracts.

feel free to try and convince me otherwise. you are probably the first person i talked to directly who has seen both conflicts.

[philthy]

Stef

Keep posting - it makes for a lively forum!

What you have to consider though is that for many young men the army or the other services is their only option for a reasonably well paid career.

The scenario they are now involved in is just about the worst one possible for them to deal with.

You don't know who is the enemy and my personal view is that if this is how he wants to fight then you take the fight to him and fight on his level. Quarter given? If you are sure he is a bad guy then use summary justice.

I would encourage my son to join the T.A. as a front line soldier as I think life is a risk anyway and I now realise that I missed my vocation in life and want him to explore as many career options as he can. If he then decided on an army career then I would support him fully.

As to whether this is a just war - I honestly don't know but I have studied the first and second world wars and can tell you that if I was a front line soldier I would be very upset if the people back home did not support me while I was risking my life in Iraq.

Also a point to consider is that these soldiers may well be '' drawing fire '' away from this country and protecting us indirectly by becoming targets in Iraq instead of the terrorists coming here to attack us.

Phil

[stef]

yes, but the reasonably well paid career comes at a human price, and a compromise: if given the orders, would i be able to do something that is wrong ? am i willing to be a cog in a machine of destruction (excuse the flowery language!) controlled by greed, for the benefit of a few ?
of course, as it was pointed out, the army is not just that. unfortunately, anyone who enroll would have to be prepared to be part of it. especially given the actual state of the world. I am not judging anyone enrolling, i just cannot feel for them, the same as they cannot have thought about the misery that they have the potential to spread. but i am just repeating myself here.

The country lacks teachers/nurses, doctors and i forget a few..so i dont agree, there are other reasonably well paid carrers.

bu yeah, this scenario is the worst they could have faced. same as someone playing russian roulette. there is a outcome you dont really want to see.


for your next comment, you dont know who the enemy is. granted, but shifting the blame on SH or afghanistan was a crafty piece of work. There are still no proof to this day that bin laden was involved in planing/funding 9-11. nor there are proofs that indeed, the taliban was giving him shelter.
the so called underground base were pure invention. there were no link between SH and 9-11, or al kaida. but the conflict needed an ennemy. and SH was the ideal candidate. so i dont think we are taking the fight to the enemy, we invented the enemy instead. and it ties up. the 9.11 bombers lived in europe, the 7th july bombers lived in the UK. the madrid bombers were north africans.
as you say, we dont know who the enemy is.. therefore, why invade irak ??

agreed, if you are sure he is the bad guy, take him out... SH has yet to be trailed. if he really was that much of monster, he would have been trailed in 92. yet, he has already been condemmed to die. The current charge on his trial is laugheable. They want to convict him for having a few insurgent executed. those guys tried to assasinate SH, were caught, sentenced to death by trial, following iraki laws, and executed... how different is this from what bush does in texas ? who decides who the bad guy is.

and again, the 1st and 2nd world war were conscripts war. not to be compared.

on your final point, you were unfortunately proven wrong last july.

i need a chill pill.

[philthy]

Stef

You are saying that the soldier on the ground has the potential to spread misery but used correctly he can be the buffer between criminals and terrorists and the ordinary man ,woman and child who just want to get on with their lives in peace.

Yes there are other careers but sometimes, ( myself included ) people are not intelligent / educated enough to take advantage of them and will take what they think is the best option for them and their family.

My comments about the enemy were actually directed towards what our soldiers face day in - day out on the ground, rather than what has gone on higher up the chain with Blair, Bush and Saddam.

I think it would be naive to think thst the thousands of people killed and starved to death by Saddam were bad people. He was a tyrant who abused his power and would have been dealt with at the first gulf war but for the other Arab states warning us off.

Stef we can't possibly know what has been stopped from happening because of our soldiers being there , simply because it hasn't happened!

I have been involved directly in interrupting individuals activities before they had commited any crimes and felt the frustration of watching them walk away after months of intelligence gathering and hard work. But they were interrupted from commiting the crime on that particular day. Result , but nothing to measure because it had not happened.

Phil

[stef]

yes, used correctly. but i guess i am too much of a pacifist. i am well in favour of complete hand gun bans. those two issues meet, i suppose.
in this particular case, i would think that the people of irak would have been better off left to do that: get on with their life. under some nasty tyran, possibly, but at least they were relatively safer/organised than they are now. all the religious/social implications of getting rid of saddam are far from being solved.

on your second point, i would never have thought that a millitary career where you risk your life on a daily basis is a safe bet to support a familly.
as frank black said, those who can teach, those who cant teach PE. ;-)
very often, soldiers are themselves son's of soldiers, and it is more of a cultural follow up than a question of choice. but that's my humble opinion.


how could the other arab states want to save his a$$? kuwaites wanted his head, and the saudis cant stand him. so what is different this time. is he more of a murderer now than he was 10 years ago ?
i am not saying he is innocent of mass murder. what i am saying is that the first thing they are charging him with is a joke. whether they have concrete evidence for crime against humanity, i dont know, but that is not what they chose to bring him to court with this time round. Those guys he had executed, i am not saying they were bad people, i am just saying they were found guilty of trying to take SH out. whether they were right or wrong, i am not the one to say !

of course, thousand starved, and needed medicine, because of sanctions on saddam. Someone then came up with the petrol for food idea. who is the sickest ?


and on your last point, i thought we were supposed to move in to stop SH use his weapons of mass destruction.. which he didnt have.. so we know what would have happened if we hadnt moved in: nothing would have happend. we had very good no fly zones in place, he was well contained, and he didnt have a catapult to fight with. so why the need to invade ?

[philthy]

Basically, because I'm a bloke I'm away for an easy life:P






;)

[ariel]

Stef,
Britain, or any other country for that matter cannot train and organise it's army solely with conscripts. In fact contrary to what you believe, in August 1914 there were 350,000 regular British soldiers in France and Belgium. Had this not been the case the Germans would have swept through France and most certainly without British support the French would have been driven back to the Channel ports.
In both the world wars, regulars and conscripts worked wonderfully well together. In fact the two entities complemented each other.
Stef, the profession of a soldier is an honourable one and I believe that the decisions made by B Liar have clouded the issue and tainted the honour of the British army.

[gaz3014]

Some interesting comments since I posted up last night!!! Including some which seem to suggest that people only join the Forces because they are not clever enough to apply themselves to anything else. So are we all stupid then????

Stef, It's quite interesting what you say about people joining-up, because of family ties. My dad served 23 years. But from being at school, all I wanted to do was to join the Army. And I think I have more than 2 brain cells, due to some of the technical aspects of my career. ;) (Nothing you said by the way Stef!!!)
I'm very proud of what and who I am, and who I represent: My country!!!

I know the risks involved, but that doesn't make it any easier when I have to leave my wife, and 10 year old daughter.

I dont know what else to say guys, 'cept I know that some politicians aren't whiter than white, but the guys on the ground are not the bad guys. Also, in my view, Iraq has little to do with all the recent attacks world wide! Have people forgotten where the 7/7 bombers originated from, and also the foiled bombing??? Not Iraq, thats for sure.

All in the name of blind religous belief!!!!:puzzled:

[Edited on 8-11-2005 by gaz3014]

[888heaven]

erm.. i'll just ignore this..and just advise you to a history book which covers more than the last two centuries !

No offence taken Stef
Lively debate I never take offence to anyones opinion unless they have tinted blinkers on and they cant see the christmas lights for darkness that Europe is decending into.
The Trojan horse comes to mind is that far enough back into history imigration is Europes Trojan.
If theres one thing that History can tell us is that different religions dont mix in close quarters.
Romans/ Jesuits
Balkans
Ireland
Elizabeth 1st Catholics/Protestants.
The list is endless and theres only going to be one winner.
Just visit the Arab European League.

As for History books Ive got quite a few thanks Stef
Battles in Britain 1066-1746 William Seymour/A History Of Warfare by Montgomery Of Alamein are both good reads as is the SOE by M.R.D Foot.
I have about 300 + books covering WW1/2 Korea/Vietnam.
100years war the Crusades.
Im also a member of the NFAS which promotes the use of the LongBow of which I have 3 and its History R Hardy is a patron.
ian

[stef]

Ariel,
by conscript war, i meant that the majority of combat was fought by conscripts, as opposed to a war of professional soldiers.. fair enough, the vast majority of those didnt really have a clue about what was going on, in terms of who was fighting who, and what for. But both my grand parents did (or at least they pretended to).
I personally disagree that the profession of soldier is an honorable one. fighting an honorable war is different. a soldier surenders himself to be used and abused. that's how i see it anyway. I am not saying they are bad folks either...

and you are right, blair's decision did cloud the issue, but the millitary remains what it is, a government tool. it was abused. but then, we live in a democracy, we cannot, as a nation, blame everything on blair, he was elected...and reelected.

Ian,
you are going off a little ;-)
i could just say that the IRA, mafia, basques separatists, corsicans and other greek communists have blown more things up than people seem to remember. they are not arabs or muslims... people always need something to put their insecurity on, it was UFOs in the 50s, this time round, it's on the arab. it's human nature. it helps to focus the fear on something tangible, and that in itself is rearuring. just take it easy !

[Paul James]

Originally posted by stef
yes, used correctly. but i guess i am too much of a pacifist. i am well in favour of complete hand gun bans.

Perlonker !!!, it's people who adopt that sort of attitude who have let this country become the dump it now is, the hand gun ban was a political sop to the public and has served no useful purpose. People who wanted to collect or legitimately use hand guns can no longer do so yet hand gun related crime has since escalated dramatically. Typifies the unworkable legislation foisted on us of late; the responsible majority being hamstrung to try and control the minority who will never act reasonably. It doesn't work and never will.

Ironically the hand gun ban should have rendered the UK as a non starter in the bid to host the olympics as we can't hold the pistol shooting events legally. Unfortunately that was conveniently forgotten so London looks like being lumbered with it.

[gaz3014]

Originally posted by stef
Ariel,
by conscript war, i meant that the majority of combat was fought by conscripts, as opposed to a war of professional soldiers.. fair enough, the vast majority of those didnt really have a clue about what was going on, in terms of who was fighting who, and what for. But both my grand parents did (or at least they pretended to).
I personally disagree that the profession of soldier is an honorable one. fighting an honorable war is different. a soldier surenders himself to be used and abused. that's how i see it anyway. I am not saying they are bad folks either...

and you are right, blair's decision did cloud the issue, but the millitary remains what it is, a government tool. it was abused. but then, we live in a democracy, we cannot, as a nation, blame everything on blair, he was elected...and reelected.

Ian,
you are going off a little ;-)
i could just say that the IRA, mafia, basques separatists, corsicans and other greek communists have blown more things up than people seem to remember. they are not arabs or muslims... people always need something to put their insecurity on, it was UFOs in the 50s, this time round, it's on the arab. it's human nature. it helps to focus the fear on something tangible, and that in itself is rearuring. just take it easy !

Sorry Stef, but youv'e gone too far!!! Like it or not, there are weak people and strong people. FACT!!! Therefore, if it wasn't for people like me defending, or ready to defend people like you, I wonder what sort of life you would have???? When the Falklands was invaded, what did you think?? "Oh well, lets see if we can talk them into changing there minds, and leaving"!!!!! Yeah, right!!

Oh, and I wasn't pointing at Muslims alone. One way or another, differant beliefs come into every conflict in history.

Catholics/protestants.
So called arian race.
communism/democracy.
muslims/christians

The list goes on!!:mad:

Who do you think maintains democracy. Debate???

So dont go disrespecting those who have given the ultimate sacrifice, for what you enjoy. And I dont mean my generation. I hope I'm wrong but that is the impression i'm getting from you.

I wont be coming back to this thread, cos some people are talking b&*"!"&ks, and it's getting too far!!!:flame:

[Edited on 8-11-2005 by gaz3014]

[stef]

i disagree.
if you want to get all statistical, checkout the US: relax gun laws, 4 times the population (roughly) but 300 times the number of people killed by firearms (28 000 people !!!), fair enough, half of them were suicides... still, scary numbers.
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/factsheetservlet?command=viewfactsheet&factsheetid=59&category=factsheets

only 97 people were shot dead in the uk in one year. so a small number of dead people is a big purcentage increase. this increase is mainly due to other crimes increasing, related to firearms, i.e: gang, drugs etc..not really your average joe type of thing. and i dont know how many of those were suicides...it could well be that their was 2 times less hand guns lying around, and 2 time less homicides, but 4 times more people got depressed and decided to shoot themselves..stats are a funny thing. especially in the hand of professional spinners !

"it doesnt work and never will"
it worked in nz:
http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

but this is a completely different topic...seriously, we live in a crowded place, with tensions between comunities..do you really believe that allowing people to keep firearms is a good idea ?
I have seen places in the states where you just walk into a superstore, JJB type of thing, and get out with some serious piece... pretty handy for a road rage situation !

[philthy]

gaz

I certainly did not mean to denigrate anybody.

The points I made were in response to stefs comments that the country needs nurses doctors and teachers as though that is an option for most working class lads, including myself. Neither I nor my friends who joined the army had the academic ability and therefore '' intelligence '' that implies to take on those sort of jobs.

We were pointed towards ''ordinary'' jobs like our dads had, and not the sort of jobs that would pay us £30,000 - £100,000+ ( I'll probably upset someone else now:D )

Anyway I was once told by a traffic cop that I had only had three brain cells after I took him on the inside going round a roundabout on my KH250 triple ( One brain cell per cylinder he said ) No sense of humour coppers :D I reckon he was just upset that I was faster than him ;)

Night night

Phil

[stef]

Originally posted by gaz3014
Originally posted by stef
Ariel,
by conscript war, i meant that the majority of combat was fought by conscripts, as opposed to a war of professional soldiers.. fair enough, the vast majority of those didnt really have a clue about what was going on, in terms of who was fighting who, and what for. But both my grand parents did (or at least they pretended to).
I personally disagree that the profession of soldier is an honorable one. fighting an honorable war is different. a soldier surenders himself to be used and abused. that's how i see it anyway. I am not saying they are bad folks either...

and you are right, blair's decision did cloud the issue, but the millitary remains what it is, a government tool. it was abused. but then, we live in a democracy, we cannot, as a nation, blame everything on blair, he was elected...and reelected.

Ian,
you are going off a little ;-)
i could just say that the IRA, mafia, basques separatists, corsicans and other greek communists have blown more things up than people seem to remember. they are not arabs or muslims... people always need something to put their insecurity on, it was UFOs in the 50s, this time round, it's on the arab. it's human nature. it helps to focus the fear on something tangible, and that in itself is rearuring. just take it easy !

Sorry Stef, but youv'e gone too far!!! Like it or not, there are weak people and strong people. FACT!!! Therefore, if it wasn't for people like me defending, or ready to defend people like you, I wonder what sort of life you would have???? When the Falklands was invaded, what did you think?? "Oh well, lets see if we can talk them into changing there minds, and leaving"!!!!! Yeah, right!!

Oh, and I wasn't pointing at Muslims alone. One way or another, differant beliefs come into every conflict in history.

Catholics/protestants.
So called arian race.
communism/democracy.
muslims/christians

The list goes on!!:mad:

Who do you think maintains democracy. Debate???

So dont go disrespecting those who have given the ultimate sacrifice, for what you enjoy. And I dont mean my generation. I hope I'm wrong but that is the impression i'm getting from you.

I wont be coming back to this thread, cos some people are talking b&*"!"&ks, and it's getting too far!!!:flame:

[Edited on 8-11-2005 by gaz3014]

Gaz, before you go off, i wasnt really replying to your post directly. the muslim comment was more on relation to ian's.
and i am not direspecting anyone. i have a lot of respect for people who fight for something they beleive in, if that something is just. I have little respect/ indifference for people who are not really sure what they morally fight for.
if the modern professional army has fallen to a level where it's only a muscle for hire, it maybe wise considering a career change. or put it this way: if we were ruled by g.w. bush.. would you enroll ? end of thread for me.

[Davieravie]

Awwwwwwwwwwwww.................that was good. Nice lively debate....better than boring Ducati's!!!!!!!

[uncle porry]

Originally posted by Davieravie
Awwwwwwwwwwwww.................that was good. Nice lively debate....better than boring Ducati's!!!!!!!

Yeah, shame, I was getting into it......pity that spen did not want to comment anymore....mind you, he must be a busy bloke what with all those trees to hug & making his "NO WAR FOR OIL" banners for the next "anti anything thats going" demo...... :D

[Paul James]

Originally posted by stef
i disagree.
if you want to get all statistical, checkout the US: relax gun laws, 4 times the population (roughly) but 300 times the number of people killed by firearms (28 000 people !!!), fair enough, half of them were suicides... still, scary numbers.
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/factsheetservlet?command=viewfactsheet&factsheetid=59&category=factsheets

only 97 people were shot dead in the uk in one year. so a small number of dead people is a big purcentage increase. this increase is mainly due to other crimes increasing, related to firearms, i.e: gang, drugs etc..not really your average joe type of thing. and i dont know how many of those were suicides...it could well be that their was 2 times less hand guns lying around, and 2 time less homicides, but 4 times more people got depressed and decided to shoot themselves..stats are a funny thing. especially in the hand of professional spinners !

"it doesnt work and never will"
it worked in nz:
http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

but this is a completely different topic...seriously, we live in a crowded place, with tensions between comunities..do you really believe that allowing people to keep firearms is a good idea ?
I have seen places in the states where you just walk into a superstore, JJB type of thing, and get out with some serious piece... pretty handy for a road rage situation !

I've kept and responsibly used guns for over 35 years and I get really fed up of listening to all the crap about more and more restrictions being put on the general public in a vain attempt to control what is already criminal activity. All gun crime is illegal at the risk of stating the bleedin obvious, the penalties should be much harsher and responsible people should be allowed to get on with their lives without petty legislation at every turn.

Sorry UP if its off topic but debates like this do tend to wander a bit at times.

[andyb]

Originally posted by Paul James
Originally posted by stef
i disagree.
if you want to get all statistical, checkout the US: relax gun laws, 4 times the population (roughly) but 300 times the number of people killed by firearms (28 000 people !!!), fair enough, half of them were suicides... still, scary numbers.
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/factsheetservlet?command=viewfactsheet&factsheetid=59&category=factsheets

only 97 people were shot dead in the uk in one year. so a small number of dead people is a big purcentage increase. this increase is mainly due to other crimes increasing, related to firearms, i.e: gang, drugs etc..not really your average joe type of thing. and i dont know how many of those were suicides...it could well be that their was 2 times less hand guns lying around, and 2 time less homicides, but 4 times more people got depressed and decided to shoot themselves..stats are a funny thing. especially in the hand of professional spinners !

"it doesnt work and never will"
it worked in nz:
http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm

but this is a completely different topic...seriously, we live in a crowded place, with tensions between comunities..do you really believe that allowing people to keep firearms is a good idea ?
I have seen places in the states where you just walk into a superstore, JJB type of thing, and get out with some serious piece... pretty handy for a road rage situation !

I've kept and responsibly used guns for over 35 years and I get really fed up of listening to all the crap about more and more restrictions being put on the general public in a vain attempt to control what is already criminal activity. All gun crime is illegal at the risk of stating the bleedin obvious, the penalties should be much harsher and responsible people should be allowed to get on with their lives without petty legislation at every turn.

Sorry UP if its off topic but debates like this do tend to wander a bit at times.

Ahh, but they know you couldnt hit a toffee from 1/2 a yard Paul!:lol::lol:

[Paul James]

Maybe someone should have told these pigeons Andy ? :lol::lol::P

[Edited on 9-11-2005 by Paul James]

[Edited on 9-11-2005 by Paul James]

[ericthered40]

Originally posted by Paul James
Maybe someone should have told these pigeons Andy ? :lol::lol::P

[Edited on 9-11-2005 by Paul James]

[Edited on 9-11-2005 by Paul James]



Bet they took some carrying back home :lol:

[Paul James]

Luckily we were able to drive the 4x4 right up to the hide, would have been knackered if we had to carry them off the field. To be fair I didn't shoot them all, I was with my shooting mate but still a good bag !!

[gaz3014]

Originally posted by philthy
gaz

I certainly did not mean to denigrate anybody.

The points I made were in response to stefs comments that the country needs nurses doctors and teachers as though that is an option for most working class lads, including myself. Neither I nor my friends who joined the army had the academic ability and therefore '' intelligence '' that implies to take on those sort of jobs.

We were pointed towards ''ordinary'' jobs like our dads had, and not the sort of jobs that would pay us £30,000 - £100,000+ ( I'll probably upset someone else now:D )

Anyway I was once told by a traffic cop that I had only had three brain cells after I took him on the inside going round a roundabout on my KH250 triple ( One brain cell per cylinder he said ) No sense of humour coppers :D I reckon he was just upset that I was faster than him ;)

Night night

Phil

Cheers Phil!! Sorry, I should have stepped off my soap box :D

Nice one about the bobby!!!!:roll: