View Full Version : 620/800 instrument panels ?
Anyone got any more info on this ?
The reason I am doing this is because the bike has an integrated instrument panel, ECU and ignition key/lock which are coded together. The bike cannot be run without the original instrument panel which, means I cannot use a race item. If the std item gets mashed in a crash then I'm snookered and can't start or use the bike until a new item is purchased and then coded to match the existing items
skidlids
23-Dec-2005, 12:12
Other than the real solution is to spend out on a FIM unit but still trying various things on my 620
Phil, the way I understand it is: if you have to get the clocks replaced (like under warranty etc) you have to take your existing key (red) to be re-programmed to the new clocks.
It is worth looking for a set of replacement clocks, to keep as 'spares' for just in case.....??
Otherwise, use the keys with that ignition only, as coded to it:(
I could, as usual be totally talking out of my backside tho:lol:
C
The immobiliser function is just a chip on the circuit board. So hows about... just buy some second hand clocks and in the event of smashing them up just swap the internals over.
Or just disable the immobilier!
ericthered40
23-Dec-2005, 14:00
wanted spare 620 clocks set :o
Originally posted by NBs996
The immobiliser function is just a chip on the circuit board. So hows about... just buy some second hand clocks and in the event of smashing them up just swap the internals over.
Or just disable the immobilier!
As an electronics engineer I can tell you now that trying to remove a surface mount ic inevitably ends in tears when using a soldering iron or even one with the right solder bit on it. You need to have the right gear otherwise the heat will kill the ic.
Believe me, I've spent lots of effort on this and, as Kev says, the answer is an FIM unit. On my circuit board at least all the indentifying numbers of the ic's have been removed so, even identifying the correct ic is very difficult. I wrote to Marelli and Ducati asking for service info and circuit diagrams but, got no reply at all.
Originally posted by AK and CK
Phil, the way I understand it is: if you have to get the clocks replaced (like under warranty etc) you have to take your existing key (red) to be re-programmed to the new clocks.
It is worth looking for a set of replacement clocks, to keep as 'spares' for just in case.....??
Otherwise, use the keys with that ignition only, as coded to it:(
I could, as usual be totally talking out of my backside tho:lol:
C
That's about the top & bottom of it. I'm going to try an experiment with my 2 SS bikes insofar as I am going to put the new bikes clocks on the old bike and see what happens. According the to info I have from John Hackett some bikes will run like this, some won't but, it's a lottery.
twpd... I was thinking of just swapping the whole board rather than trying to take a component off it.
I've had mine apart but can't remember if the board just unplugs or is hard wired to something.
I'd like to try'n disable the immobiliser but it aint my bike!
Sorry mate I misread you. Well mine is a plug & play unit - the harness just plugs into it. What I am going to do is rehouse it in a steel box under the seat.
butch890
23-Dec-2005, 15:56
From what i understand the codeing isnt activated untill yoiu start the bike using the red key.
We fitted a new clock to Daves bike after his off and it started with no problems.
Butch
Dead right butch, but that's only with new clocks.
2nd hand clocks already coded to another bike won't work no matter how many different coloured keys you've got!
Unless someone knows different????
Originally posted by NBs996
Dead right butch, but that's only with new clocks.
2nd hand clocks already coded to another bike won't work no matter how many different coloured keys you've got!
Spot on young man.
I have spoken at length to Ducati on this during 2005.
All new bikes appear to be run on test, with red key, to activate coding. So if you have brand new bike, ask for red key NOT to be used.
At present, if you damage the clocks, they might not 'read' but might be activated enough internally to start the bike.
Worse case scenario, is to either then:
replace clocks (with new ones (bloddy expensive) or
get FIM chip (cheaper option, than new clocks)
Still working thru ideas, will let you know what happens
Alan
Originally posted by AK and CK
Originally posted by NBs996
Dead right butch, but that's only with new clocks.
2nd hand clocks already coded to another bike won't work no matter how many different coloured keys you've got!
Spot on young man.
I have spoken at length to Ducati on this during 2005.
All new bikes appear to be run on test, with red key, to activate coding. So if you have brand new bike, ask for red key NOT to be used.
At present, if you damage the clocks, they might not 'read' but might be activated enough internally to start the bike.
Worse case scenario, is to either then:
replace clocks (with new ones (bloddy expensive) or
get FIM chip (cheaper option, than new clocks)
Still working thru ideas, will let you know what happens
Alan
That sounds like a pretty solid picture Alan.
The essential element that worried me enough to post the question, is that it will stop us dead in our tracks at a race meeting.
Ducati will know all this of course, so if we find the right person to ask, we can hopefully get the factory-approved way of making our race bikes able to run without the clocks when this happens.
Eg - what to do if you dont know your immobiliser code cos you bought the bike for a song and it didnt have that nice little tag :o
Eg - how much 'matching kit' you have to have as a spare if it all goes pear-shaped ?
(I will happily organise/test/start-a-fund for a 'spare set' to be available to us all)
At the very least, we all (620 riders) know where we stand now.
Anyone know anyone useful :)
ps
I'm quite glad I have the 583 as well :P
skidlids
23-Dec-2005, 23:25
Why not just run a 1.6M ECU and relevant harness and get a chip programed to suit, legal in Desmo Due but not in Minitwins. then you could run a 748/916 Revcounter and not have to wory as much.
Flemse has just had it done to his 999 and I know it has also been done on a 998 which also runs the 5.9M ECU but without the immobiliser
http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=27418
ericthered40
24-Dec-2005, 00:56
OK I have a red key with a small tag attached I take it this is the code number?
Dose this mean i can get any set of 620 clocks, IE monster, sport or multi
put them on the bike get them coded then use that set if the inevitable happens?
butch890
24-Dec-2005, 05:20
Surely if the doner clocks have never been run with the red key they will fit straight on.
Butch
butch890
24-Dec-2005, 05:22
Nuther thought,i have amate who is an electronics whizz prehaps i could get him to decode a set for use as spares for the use of all
Butch
worth having a word with him butch, but as far as a can work out, the ecu won't demobilise until gets a signal from the clocks. So he'd have to take the code out the ecu also.
Could be wrong tho!
butch890
24-Dec-2005, 12:00
So what we need is a blank ecu then?
Butch
I had a doc describing how the system worked and what talked to what, but I'll be buggered if can find it! Where's frank??!!
I think the easiest solution would be to try'n get hold of an unused set of clocks.
I have a document that does that. I will try to find it. If I do, I'll scan it and upload.
butch890
24-Dec-2005, 16:44
Originally posted by NBs996
I had a doc describing how the system worked and what talked to what, but I'll be buggered if can find it! Where's frank??!!
I think the easiest solution would be to try'n get hold of an unused set of clocks.
Nick,would a set of clocks from a buke that hasnt been coded not be ok?
The ones we fitted to Daves bike were off just such a bike.
Butch
Butch...I'd be interested in those clocks if you want shot of them for a price.
I've made some small progress on this - I've removed all the dc motors from the panel, all the mounts etc and have built a small loom extension & tested it ok. The next step is to re-house the pcb in a suitable enclose from Maplins or RS. Once that is working I will be able to relocate it under the seat out of harm's way so, at least the bike can be used.
The next step after that is to obtain a cct diagram to try to find whether or not the panel can be jumpered out of the circuit.
I also plan to test it on the new 800 to verify whether or not panels can be interchanged between the bikes.
Today I fitted the panel from the old bike to my new bike. It was immobilised and would not start. I fitted the new bike's panel to the old bike with the same results.
So.....it would seem that indeed you cannot swap panels and therefore you cannot use a 2nd-hand instrument panel that has been coded to another bike.
:sniff:
butch890
03-Jan-2006, 18:47
The clocks we used were secondhand but had never been used with the red key,therefore uncoded.
If we had one such set in the paddock surely that would get us out of trouble.
Butch
Alas I am not one of the DD crew but, that's a really good a noble idea. Well worth doing imo. Good on yer. :eureka:
So, anyone know the best person at Ducati UK we should contact to find out if there is a 'factory-approved' solution if one of us gets immobilised at a race meeting ?
(ie at the track - NOT paying a fortune to a dealer by plugging into their diagnostic equipment at their premises some considerable time after the racing finishes)
Hmmm, even knowing how to tell if the clocks have ever been used with a red key would be a start, wouldnt it :eureka:
Phil...I've been through all this mate - with Ducat UK's technical rep'...can't remember his name now but, there isn't a workaround. It's a crazy daft situation.
butch890
04-Jan-2006, 06:54
I will try to source a set of uncoded clocks as spares for all riders.
would only be "on loan " untill the end of the meeting and would need to be replaced if damaged-would that be ok for all riders?
butch
Are we being thick here ?
I've not been able to try this cos my road monster didnt come with a code-card ...
(it _was_ cheap ! any suggestions on the easy way to get the code ?)
BUT, if the immobiliser is disabled, will it stop looking for the correct key ?
AND ... I cant find any instructions on how to re-enable the immobiliser if you do disable it ?
Phil,
I haven't tried it nor am I going to but, I doubt that it will work tbh. To try this you would need to have the ignition on. Only a fool unplugs/plugs in live electronic components - you would run the risk of trashing the panel electronics and/or the ECU.
Suggestion: If anybody does try removing either their cpu or the instrument panel then be sure to remove the 3A fuses in the fusebox first to isolate them.
I don't think we're being any thicker than normal Phil !
The immobilliser can be disabled using software, but the software needs the code to be entered from the card wot you don't have. And yes, the ecu will stop looking for the key and clocks.
Re-enable it using the same software.
Have you found another way to immobilise it??
Added:
twpd is obviously spot on... don't be trying to mess with circuitry while it's live!
[Edited on 9-1-2006 by NBs996]
Originally posted by NBs996
I don't think we're being any thicker than normal Phil !
The immobilliser can be disabled using software, but the software needs the code to be entered from the card wot you don't have. And yes, the ecu will stop looking for the key and clocks.
Re-enable it using the same software.
Have you found another way to immobilise it??
Added:
twpd is obviously spot on... don't be trying to mess with circuitry while it's live!
[Edited on 9-1-2006 by NBs996]
yeh yeh yeh - you young whipper snappers got the wrong end of the stick !
what I mean is ... if we can disable the immobiliser in the clock circuitry - why isnt that good enough ?
Wouldnt a disabled clock-unit work with any key ?
I _am_ assuming it stays disabled of course - or is that what you mean by 'using the software' - which really means using the dealers diagnostic computer ?
(I am an electronics eng who writes embedded software for a living :saint:)
Ok phil, i gotcha!
i gather the immobiliser is in the ecu and is looking for a signal from the clocks before it wakes up... so i can't see that disabling the source signal would fool the ecu otherwise they'd be easy to just hotwire wouldn't they?
(I'm not an electronics engineer and I don't write embedded software for a living!)
but but but but ....
the keys are coded to the clocks ... ?
the antenna is wired into the clocks ... ?
...
a blank new set of clocks works with any ecu !
you see where my thinking got me now :puzzled:
nobody said they were impossible to hotwire :devil:
The simple and effective solution that is proven to work is to fit an FIM ECU. The best engineering solution is always the simplest. ;)
skidlids
09-Jan-2006, 18:36
Originally posted by NBs996
i gather the immobiliser is in the ecu and is looking for a signal from the clocks before it wakes up...
Thats how I understand it, don't suppose anybody knows what signal this is, as I understand it the ECU is also coded to the key system which would point to the signal from the clocks being a unique signal for each bike rather than a uniform stream of pulses that could be replicated by a signal generator.
butch890
09-Jan-2006, 18:37
had a long chat with magnetti merrelli about this today,if your bike has never been run with the red key your clocks are uncoded ,if it has you will need a blank set of clocks to run it.
As long as you dont use the red key the replacement clocks will remain uncoded,therefore my earlier suggestion satnds.
Butch
I'm getting too confused! Think I'll just plug in the laptop and hit the override button!!
So butch, are you saying that the system will demobilise without getting a signal from the clocks?
twpd - sadly, my budget is saying no to a FIM ecu :sniff:
Originally posted by butch890
had a long chat with magnetti merrelli about this today,if your bike has never been run with the red key your clocks are uncoded ,if it has you will need a blank set of clocks to run it.
As long as you dont use the red key the replacement clocks will remain uncoded,therefore my earlier suggestion satnds.
Butch
And normal procedure is to code them at PDI as I'm led to believe.
butch890
09-Jan-2006, 20:33
Originally posted by NBs996
I'm getting too confused! Think I'll just plug in the laptop and hit the override button!!
So butch, are you saying that the system will demobilise without getting a signal from the clocks?
twpd - sadly, my budget is saying no to a FIM ecu :sniff:
My information is yes.
Dave reillys bike was started when new with the red key,after his off at snetterton a secondhand (delivery mileage) uncoded set of clocks were fitted and hey presto it ran fine!
Butch
But has anybody tried disabling the immobiliser - which could simply 'uncode' the clocks - and then tried using them on another bike ?
I think I'm going to have to try this out with the race bike's clocks, and then fit them on the road bike to see what happens.
I would really like a get-out-of-jail routine in case it mucks up one of them !
I hate working without a specification :o
There's still the problem of being able to run without the clocks. Who wants to use std clocks when just a tacho is needed? Is there a way of disabling the immobiliser? Steve at Italia in Lincoln wasn't aware of one.
Owner's Manual page 16 is titled
'Procedure to disable immobilizer engine block through throttle twistgrip'
I've seen that but that doesn't permanently disable it, does it? Nor does it get around not being able to run without the clocks which, is what I need to do.
This is a total nightmare, isn't it?
Got a copy of the updated haynes manual today - it has a much longer write-up than the owners manual :P
- the manual disable is temporary.
- it doesnt mention the clocks at all - mostly just the ecu, with a brief note (chapter 4 section 7 paragraph 7) '... to allow information transfer between the decoder and the ecu ...' so i would guess the clocks have a 'secret' decoder function which stores all the key transponder ids.
I've just looked up the fim u59 price - £450 from sigma !!!!
That sounds like a spare set of clocks, ecu and power commander to me :D
ericthered40
16-Jan-2006, 23:41
Power commander £195
New clocks £365 :o
ECU ?
So lets add it all up properly then ...
(all contributions gratefully received)
fim u59 = £450 from sigma
race tacho = £200 +
total about £650
clocks = £365 (list ?)
ecu = £100 second-hand ?
pc3 = £200
total about £665
(then add setup costs to either route)
The FIM computer has some advantages over running the OEM ECU with adjustability etc as far as I understand. I've had this conversation with Neil Spalding as well.
Originally posted by twpd
There's still the problem of being able to run without the clocks. Who wants to use std clocks when just a tacho is needed? Is there a way of disabling the immobiliser? Steve at Italia in Lincoln wasn't aware of one.
Spoke to John hacket about this on saturday he says that ducati have software to setup/bypass the immobiliser but are reluctant to release it he is working on it.
Originally posted by phil_h
So lets add it all up properly then ...
(all contributions gratefully received)
fim u59 = £450 from sigma
race tacho = £200 +
total about £650
clocks = £365 (list ?)
ecu = £100 second-hand ?
pc3 = £200
total about £665
(then add setup costs to either route)
Race tachos don't cost that much. More like about £125 - less again if you buy from Natty.
Next if you get a used CPU then to be sure you will need all the keys.
So..option 1 is about £550.
Option 2 is still £650+ and you still have the problem of what to do if you trash the panel in a crash.
I've been through all the options time & time again. The most risk free option (and TP should understand the thinking behind project risk assessments ;)) has to be the FIM route.
Originally posted by chass
Originally posted by twpd
There's still the problem of being able to run without the clocks. Who wants to use std clocks when just a tacho is needed? Is there a way of disabling the immobiliser? Steve at Italia in Lincoln wasn't aware of one.
Spoke to John hacket about this on saturday he says that ducati have software to setup/bypass the immobiliser but are reluctant to release it he is working on it.
interesting - he didn't communicate that to me when I last spoke to him a month ago. I understand Ducati's reluctance tbh if such a solution exists - it would soon become public domain and once that info is out the thieves will use it.
You know, for all the amount of discussion that has taken place here, the amount of research myself and others have done and all the phone calls made, not to mention the time that the likes of John Hackett have put in - the safest, cheapest and easiest option is still the FIM ecu
This is great if you can use it within the DD rules framework - alas for me, I approached the Minitwins organiser/s (Mike Edwards) and was told that the FIM would not be allowed. I preferred to ask rather than just do it and hope not to get caught out. I'd rather not cheat so it effectively rules out the use of an 800ss in Minitwins unless you have very deep pockets.
:(
[Edited on 17-1-2006 by twpd]
Originally posted by twpd
You know, for all the amount of discussion that has taken place here, the amount of research myself and others have done and all the phone calls made, not to mention the time that the likes of John Hackett have put in - the safest, cheapest and easiest option is still the FIM ecu
This is great if you can use it within the DD rules framework - alas for me, I approached the Minitwins organiser/s (Mike Edwards) and was told that the FIM would not be allowed. I preferred to ask rather than just do it and hope not to get caught out. I'd rather not cheat so it effectively rules out the use of an 800ss in Minitwins unless you have very deep pockets.
:(
[Edited on 17-1-2006 by twpd]
Agree totally.
Just trying to make 2 points very clear ...
1. Setting up the 620's (or 800's) to race 'properly' is NOT cheap.
2. The DD series are about CLUB racing, so we should try and make sure we all share all our knowledge, and how we got to it.
butch890
17-Jan-2006, 14:25
I too spoke to jh on saturday about this and he made a very valid point,if you have an off thats not too serious you should be able to repair the clock housing with gaffer or such like,however if your off is bad enough to wreck the clocks you proberbly aint going to restart!
Also in last years racing there was not one case of anybody not being able to race because there clocks were smashed.
food for thought.
Butch
Originally posted by butch890
I too spoke to jh on saturday about this and he made a very valid point,if you have an off thats not too serious you should be able to repair the clock housing with gaffer or such like,however if your off is bad enough to wreck the clocks you proberbly aint going to restart!
Also in last years racing there was not one case of anybody not being able to race because there clocks were smashed.
food for thought.
Butch
JH echoes the point I've been making all along and this is the point I also made to Mike Edwards to no avail
As it happens my instrument panel on the 800 waswrecked but, I was able to rescue the internal pcb which, I am going to rehouse in a steel box under the seat. However, as I've not got the red key and only one black key if any component goes tits up then I'm knackered which is why I want to use the FIM.
Originally posted by butch890
I too spoke to jh on saturday about this and he made a very valid point,if you have an off thats not too serious you should be able to repair the clock housing with gaffer or such like, however if your off is bad enough to wreck the clocks you proberbly aint going to restart!
Also in last years racing there was not one case of anybody not being able to race because there clocks were smashed.
food for thought.
Butch
Absolutely right.
My 620 was "rested at the side of the track" twice last year and the clocks weren't even scratched, let alone smashed beyond repair!
In the event of not going for the FIM setup, and not wanting to cough for the software to bypass the factory fitted imobilliser, it seems all that's necessary is stick the pcb in a box under the seat and keep it plugged in.
Are we singing of the same page yet?!! :lol:
butch890
17-Jan-2006, 21:17
Originally posted by NBs996
Originally posted by butch890
I too spoke to jh on saturday about this and he made a very valid point,if you have an off thats not too serious you should be able to repair the clock housing with gaffer or such like, however if your off is bad enough to wreck the clocks you proberbly aint going to restart!
Also in last years racing there was not one case of anybody not being able to race because there clocks were smashed.
food for thought.
Butch
Absolutely right.
My 620 was "rested at the side of the track" twice last year and the clocks weren't even scratched, let alone smashed beyond repair!
In the event of not going for the FIM setup, and not wanting to cough for the software to bypass the factory fitted imobilliser, it seems all that's necessary is stick the pcb in a box under the seat and keep it plugged in.
Are we singing of the same page yet?!! :lol:
unfortunatly not nick,no-one has mentioned about what happens if we need to reboot the sprogler valve at the track,will we need the ducati software or can we just use a size 6 hammer!:lol:
Butch
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