View Full Version : 2 classes for 2007
dickieducati
13-Jul-2006, 21:06
thinking out loud really and haven't though it though too much but thinking ahead to 2007:
if numbers seem similar to this year;40ish; how about just simply making it one class up to 620cc but running a novice championship in it too. i think im right in saying there are a number of people moving up to 620 anyway, most of the 'original' riders will lose novice status soon if they havent already. that way anyone wanting to come in on a 583 cheaply as a novice will still have something to aim for and it will ensure good grids and save all the faffing about with one grid/2 grids etc etc. if its oversubscribed then its down to people getting their fingers out with entries or getting bumped onto another grid for the slowest as per all the other racing classes.
Best stick to racing, mate
Rattler
13-Jul-2006, 21:26
thinking out loud really and haven't though it though too much but thinking ahead to 2007:
if numbers seem similar to this year;40ish; how about just simply making it one class up to 620cc but running a novice championship in it too. i think im right in saying there are a number of people moving up to 620 anyway, most of the 'original' riders will lose novice status soon if they havent already. that way anyone wanting to come in on a 583 cheaply as a novice will still have something to aim for and it will ensure good grids and save all the faffing about with one grid/2 grids etc etc. if its oversubscribed then its down to people getting their fingers out with entries or getting bumped onto another grid for the slowest as per all the other racing classes.
Drinking is dangerous!!!!
I think we'll have one grid, but we need to retain the 2 classes (without restriction). Basically as we are I suppose.
It may be nice to have a delayed start for the 583's so that they get their own grid?
If anything 583's should go first to avoid getting lapped? Then the faster 620 riders are the more than capable of passing the less expierienced on slower bikes, whilst the other way round will have experienced riders on slower bikes trying to safely take slower people on fast bikes?
Reverse grids :devil:
That would work :lol:
andys 900ss
13-Jul-2006, 22:21
Its a shame we cant have two classes and two grids, it may have influenced my decision with which bike to buy as the 583's really struggle against the 620's in speed circumstances. If we only get one grid, anyone who needs to be competitive needs a 620 and the 583's will drift away.
COME ON GUYS, LETS HAVE SOME MORE 583'S !! £2-3K will convert you from trackdayer to racer !!!
Andy
I think we'll have one grid, but we need to retain the 2 classes (without restriction). Basically as we are I suppose.
I agree.
it would be most difficult for those who had 583's and are only just losing their novice vest to then be expected to pay out for 620 bikes Dickie. there would be no real market for the 583s that could only be used for 1 or 2 seasons only i think.
status quo unless we can really get enough for 2 grids
and then plan for 2008 to let the 695's in?:eek:
then plan for 2008 to let the 695's in?:eek:
Ooops, are we supposed to wait until 2008? :o
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I thought you were running an 800 Dom? :D
I thought you were running an 800 Dom? :D
How rude!!
Did I make the 1000 look that slow? ;)
How rude!!
Did I make the 1000 look that slow? ;)
It's a 750 and you know it, so stop rubbing it in...
skidlids
13-Jul-2006, 23:49
I made it 24 Class B bikes at Cadwell and 16 class A which looks like it will be the type of figures for the rest of the season
so what we need for seperate grids is more class A bikes or drop them and just have 583s with a novice championship contained within it and settle for one grid
Lets face it we have heard DDs go on about how much we contribute to New Era's income but when it comes down to it Class B contributes more (up to 50% more) and still get the worse end of the deal.
Phil who more often than not wins class B gets very few chances to cross the line first and get the deserved recognition for his win, many a Class B bike is baulked off a mass start by the more powerful 620s that win the drag race to the first corner, and then have to start taking chances in corners to pass people they out qualified.
I have again entered both classes at Donington (yes the entry has been sent) in an attempt to bolster the numbers in Class A to try and help get seperate grids, but based on Oulton I have included a letter asking if its not possible for me to race in two seperate DD classes then just enter me in Class B and also in SV 650s if there is room.
You're dead right Kev.
I vote we drop Class A :lol:
I made it 24 Class B bikes at Cadwell and 16 class A which looks like it will be the type of figures for the rest of the season
so what we need for seperate grids is more class A bikes or drop them and just have 583s with a novice championship contained within it and settle for one grid
Lets face it we have heard DDs go on about how much we contribute to New Era's income but when it comes down to it Class B contributes more (up to 50% more) and still get the worse end of the deal.
Phil who more often than not wins class B gets very few chances to cross the line first and get the deserved recognition for his win, many a Class B bike is baulked off a mass start by the more powerful 620s that win the drag race to the first corner, and then have to start taking chances in corners to pass people they out qualified.
I have again entered both classes at Donington (yes the entry has been sent) in an attempt to bolster the numbers in Class A to try and help get seperate grids, but based on Oulton I have included a letter asking if its not possible for me to race in two seperate DD classes then just enter me in Class B and also in SV 650s if there is room.
Kev is right.......
Class B grid contributes more bikes to the grid than the Class A.....
therefore surely Class B should get precedence.!!....as kev rightly said the class B riders suffer more so on a combined grid than the class A riders....
its about time Class B was the focus ..this is where the numbers are.!
well said kev.
Rattler
14-Jul-2006, 09:38
Kev is right.......
Class B grid contributes more bikes to the grid than the Class A.....
therefore surely Class B should get precedence.!!....as kev rightly said the class B riders suffer more so on a combined grid than the class A riders....
its about time Class B was the focus ..this is where the numbers are.!
well said kev.
The 583 riders should be grateful that we allow them on the same grid as the 620s!!! - I dunno, ideas above their station.
Some of them even have the gaul to upset some of the 620s by getting in their way - damned cheek of it. ;)
Tim
The 583 riders should be grateful that we allow them on the same grid as the 620s!!! - I dunno, ideas above their station.
Some of them even have the gaul to upset some of the 620s by getting in their way - damned cheek of it. ;)
Tim
its about time Class A wannabe's realised there pipe dreams and moved into the WSB arena.?..then Class B can get down to some real racing....instead of exchanging blows with the handbag swingin, bling adding, gp wannabe,pipe dream tt riding, gucci wearing,little flowers in the 620 class...................
Rattler
14-Jul-2006, 09:52
its about time Class A wannabe's realised there pipe dreams and moved into the WSB arena.?..then Class B can get down to some real racing....instead of exchanging blows with the handbag swingin, bling adding, gp wannabe,pipe dream tt riding, gucci wearing,little flowers in the 620 class...................
You know when you get a really annoying fly buzzing around you that makes a lot of noise and just gets on your nerves, and you wonder why are they there? That's 583s that is!!! ;)
How about a promotion/relegation system?
The top 5 Class B riders get to swap their bikes with the bottom 5 Class A riders?
Incentives all round then.......
Well, I'm hoping to be back at some point this year so 1 more for the Gucci's.
The day the 583's are faster around the track than the 620's they should get grid priority ;)
The faster class should get priority, it's nothing to do with who or what etc. IMO if we're going to share track space the 583's should be let go 10-15 seconds after the 620's go - like the 620's were with the hornets and the 583's with the CB's.
Rattler
14-Jul-2006, 11:11
Well, I'm hoping to be back at some point this year so 1 more for the Gucci's.
The day the 583's are faster around the track than the 620's they should get grid priority ;)
The faster class should get priority, it's nothing to do with who or what etc. IMO if we're going to share track space the 583's should be let go 10-15 seconds after the 620's go - like the 620's were with the hornets and the 583's with the CB's.
Lighten up skippy ;)
Well, I'm hoping to be back at some point this year so 1 more for the Gucci's.
The day the 583's are faster around the track than the 620's they should get grid priority ;)
The faster class should get priority, it's nothing to do with who or what etc. IMO if we're going to share track space the 583's should be let go 10-15 seconds after the 620's go - like the 620's were with the hornets and the 583's with the CB's.
TP thats too easy..!! come on fella we must be able to over complicate it somehow................*sigh*
it would mean 2 grids and a delayed start of 10 seconds...!................WOW...i got mind melt...
skidlids
14-Jul-2006, 11:30
Well if its going to be one grid more often than not then we should look at qualifying criteria if grids are over subscribed.
Do we go for 1st past the post on entries
Or
If 60% of entries are Class B then allocate 60% of the available grid slots to Class B and 40% to Class A and then let the class entrants quallify for those grid slots
Or
have a cut off qualifying time based on the pole setter in each class
Eg, 107% cut off so if you are on a class A bike and you are over 107% behind the pole sitter in Class A you don’t make the grid and like wise class B, so if you are on a class B bike and you are over 107% behind the pole sitter in Class B you don’t make the grid
Bear in mind that grid sizes vary, and already there has been an out cry about going to meetings such as they hold at Castle Combe with a indication that some would rather race at Mallory and some would happily go to Pembrey
Castle Combe =42 solo starters allowed
Snetterton = 40
Cadwell = 38
Oulton = 40
Donington = 40
Pembrey = 36
Mallory = 32
So if we are looking at one grid for Mallory split 60/40 in favour of class B (based on this years entries) that would be 19 Class B bikes and 13 Class A bikes
I can't see much off the above helping attract people to the series, we really should be looking at how to get more people involved to enable us to have 2 grids
Lighten up skippy ;)
eh???!!! Big assumption there! :rolleyes:
Now do some bloody work you crackheads!
quote- "COME ON GUYS, LETS HAVE SOME MORE 583'S !! £2-3K will convert you from trackdayer to racer !!!"
Andy
Yeah then as i see it in the trackday section, you could move up to the inters group on the practice trackdays......:lol: :devil:
quote- "COME ON GUYS, LETS HAVE SOME MORE 583'S !! £2-3K will convert you from trackdayer to racer !!!"
Andy
Yeah then as i see it in the trackday section, you could move up to the inters group on the practice trackdays......:lol: :devil:
You won't have 140 odd bhp to hide behind on a DD bike Andy ;)
:D
Is going fast about horsepower then o instructor one?:frog: :eek:
Is going fast about horsepower then o instructor one?:frog: :eek:
u r clear evidence to the contrary....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I wish i could be taken as seriously as a real racer................
weeksy2
14-Jul-2006, 12:35
I'm not convinced a 'split' start would help with the series currently, mostly due to the difference between the 'fast' and the 'back runners' in the series.
Phil/Andy/Griif etc would be catching the other guys after 1.5 laps.... Now, IMO it's different for Phil and the lads to be trying to overtake the 620's who are farily close to their pace, as they'll be running simillar braking markers, turn ins etc etc... To overtake some of the back markers, lets face it they have less mid corner speed, likely the lines are not as good, and power out of the corners isn't as good, i think it would cause tooo many issues.
Becauseof the wide range of speed in DD series, i think it's a bad idea.
2 grids obviously is the ideal scenario, but the current system is the best of the rest...
(no, before anyone has a dig at me, i'm NOT having a pop at the back runners)
Tonio600
14-Jul-2006, 12:43
The day the 583's are faster around the track than the 620's they should get grid priority ;)
Priority must go to the class with the more entrants, not with the fastest bikes. It's called democracy.
In France, 217 years ago today, we took possesion of the Le Mans Control tower (or maybe it was La Bastille) and started cutting heads of the 620s owners (or maybe it was the Lords)...
:D
Phil/Andy/Griif etc would be catching the other guys after 1.5 laps.... Now, IMO it's different for Phil and the lads to be trying to overtake the 620's who are farily close to their pace, as they'll be running simillar braking markers, turn ins etc etc... To overtake some of the back markers, lets face it they have less mid corner speed, likely the lines are not as good, and power out of the corners isn't as good, i think it would cause tooo many issues.
That's precisely the reason that it's a good idea!!
The faster 583's will find it far easier to get past the slower 620's BECAUSE they're not so late on the brakes or early on the throttle.
It's harder to pass a 620 that is more your pace for that very reason - they're running your pace.
The only downside I can think of from running a delayed start, is that more 583's are likely to lose a lap - as the 620's will have a 10-15 second head start, so will come around to lap people quicker.
Otherwise, I think a delayed start is better for everyone.
skidlids
14-Jul-2006, 13:55
But its hard to pass a 620 on a 583 that is running marginally slower than you as they get to the corner first, this means yor lap times drop to the same as theirs and you effectively wait for them to make a mistake, while the 620 you passed a lap a go manages to catch back up with you and blast past you on the straight.
As the slower class B runners have paid the same as everyone else to enter either a 6 or 8 lap race then that is what they should be entitled to get, but giving faster bikes a 15 to 20 second head start futher reduces the chance of this happening when compared to single grids.
If having split starts then ideally the 583s should be at the front of the grid as it will be easier for riders on 620s to pass those they catch up with.
As I said before if running combined grids the 620s a row or two behind the 583s still get to the first corner ahead as they win the drag race, not only do they have more power but the 6 speeders can effectively run a lower first gear for better acceleration off the line.
And when a rider on a 620 starts riding defensively to keep the 583 behind its a real pi55er
Its a shame we have lost so many riders from the series already this year as with the new entrants that have now joined or are joining the series we may have stood a chance of seperate grids.
weeksy2
14-Jul-2006, 14:02
Its a shame we have lost so many riders from the series already this year as with the new entrants that have now joined or are joining the series we may have stood a chance of seperate grids.
slightly off topic... maybe another thread....
Reasons why ?
I can only say that my experience of riding a slower and smaller bike in S-o-T classes was that it was a pain despite split grids, delayed starts etc. Inevitably, slower riders on faster bikes resulted in traffic jams, near misses and lost lap times. On several occasions I lost places because of it and in the end resorted to having to be pretty hard on some riders in order to make a move stick so, I could get on wth the job of racing/chasing after a fellow minitwin rider.
Separate races is the only sensible solution.
weeksy2
14-Jul-2006, 14:06
Separate races is the only sensible solution.
they can only ask for it if they fill more spaces on the Grid mate... without that, NE are going to tell them to ****** off as they have done most of this season.
Reasons why ?
Desmo Due probably has more first timers racing than most other classes, so there are no doubt some riders who try it and decide it isn't their bag for whatever reason. They still get the 'I raced bikes' kudos to dine out on for a few years if they wish to.
Everybody tells you how much racing costs, but it is still a shock when it really does cost that much or more, so there must be some people who plain run out of budget.
As a series that is geared primarily towards the absolute beginner, it is also possible that some people will get the bug and move on to different classes.
I don't see how setting the 583's off first would ever be a sensible option.
Can you imagine 15+ 620 riders carving through a field of novices on slow bikes?
You're clearly not well :lol:
weeksy2
14-Jul-2006, 14:14
I don't see how setting the 583's off first would ever be a sensible option.
Can you imagine 15+ 620 riders carving through a field of novices on slow bikes?
You're clearly not well :lol:
I agree with you on the first bit.... however are there more novices per 20 in the 583 than there are in 620's ?
i thought on the whole the spread of 'novices' was fairly even... (ignoring peoiple who've upgraded to clubman this season, as of start of this season ?)
It doesn't matter mate, it's bloody dangerous!!!
That's the only reason you need to know.
You cannot have 620's coming through the whole 583 grid - it would be carnage.
Why are you being so stupid?
they can only ask for it if they fill more spaces on the Grid mate... without that, NE are going to tell them to ****** off as they have done most of this season.
In that case given that 583's make up the majority of the entries. I'd suggest dropping 620's. Something is gonna have to give sooner or later unless DD attracts more entries (actually again as an outsider and experienced racer I find the one-day format totally off-putting).
IMO as an outsider who has no political axe or any other axe to grind I reckon that the whole formula/rule set is confusing and complicated for people looking in through the window.
Have one type of bike - either 620's or 583's.
Have eligibility for any licenced racer.
Have two trophies: one for novices. One for non-novices.
Simple.
The class is great for new and novice racers but, whilst it will retain a harcore of followers I think more than a few will move onto other things after a season or two. Correct me if I am wrong but, the 620 class exists for those that stay? Why bother? It's so small. They can just as likely stay on a 583.
Priority must go to the class with the more entrants, not with the fastest bikes. It's called democracy.
In France, 217 years ago today, we took possesion of the Le Mans Control tower (or maybe it was La Bastille) and started cutting heads of the 620s owners (or maybe it was the Lords)...
:D
I completely disagree.
Who cares if the 583's have more numbers ... it's not even relevant. The answer is separate grids, but if we can't have that then splitting the grid is the next best solution - not running everyone off at the same time.
This isn't directed at you Tonio ... but lets get serious here. The reason we don't have separate grids is both a shafting from New Era and because we didn't deliver on the number of people that entered. Yes I think the 583 riders get the rough end of the stick but as far as I can see the majority of times you combine two classes on the grid and have a split grid the faster class gets away first. It just makes more sense.
I appreciate that some of you 583 riders have got the hump because you've been short changed, and I agree that you have a valid reason for that. But in simply reversing things are you fixing the problem or just taking it out on the 620 riders.
Fix the problem, don't put a bandaid on that shafts another bunch of riders from the club simply because you have more numbers than them. That's ridiculous.
skidlids
14-Jul-2006, 14:26
[QUOTE=domski]
Can you imagine 15+ 620 riders carving through a field of novices on slow bikes?
QUOTE]
no I can't imagine it based on oulton any rider outside the top 10 in class A would take 3 to 4 laps to catch anybody in the top 15 of class B
so that hardly constitues 15 riders on 620s going through a field of Class B bikes.
What those 10 riders do constitue is 25% of the grid which if I'm not mistaken is a minority.
and with the field spread out after a couple of laps then surely those on more powerful bikes aren't going to have to much of a problem picking off the odd 583 here and there
weeksy2
14-Jul-2006, 14:26
Where the **** did i say that ? i said you were right you lunatic....
i then asked how many novices were proportionally in each class.
Never once did i say or thing 583's should be first off...
You should read what's written instead of what you make up in your paranoid mind.
Perhaps too contentious to utter....how about running with a different club? IMO the one day format is a severe hindrance to the entire series. It makes the cost unecessarily high wrt travel costs:race time ratio.
Perhaps the number of entries would increase then?
no I can't imagine it based on oulton any rider outside the top 10 in class A would take 3 to 4 laps to catch anybody in the top 15 of class B
so that hardly constitues 15 riders on 620s going through a field of Class B bikes.
What those 10 riders do constitue is 25% of the grid which if I'm not mistaken is a minority.
and with the field spread out after a couple of laps then surely those on more powerful bikes aren't going to have to much of a problem picking off the odd 583 here and there
And if you apply it the other way around how many 583 riders would come through the 620 grid?
2 races within a race, different bikes and different riders. Even so, the field splits itself. Whether you are on a 583 or a 620, you qualify about where your ability dictates.
No, it probably isn't perfect, but I think it works.
Also, how many incidents have there been on the first few corners of any DD races? Probably not many. It would be far worse if the faster field started behind the slower field.
And another thing, fair play to those guys (and girls!) on 538s gridding in front of some of the 620s!
will to live lost............
split the grids if we can by getting a delayed start in with cb5's or hornets or what ever class is also low on numbers.....
Failing that..combined grid with a 10 second delay.......
Fastest class being 620 of first
...........Although it would be nice to how the 620 lads fair tring to get passed the faster 583's.......see how that affects the race results....hhehehe
PS
if u dont race in DD you dont have an opionion unless you voice it through a racer now Rack off........;-)
2 races within a race, different bikes and different riders. Even so, the field splits itself. Whether you are on a 583 or a 620, you qualify about where your ability dictates.
No, it probably isn't perfect, but I think it works.
Also, how many incidents have there been on the first few corners of any DD races? Probably not many. It would be far worse if the faster field started behind the slower field.
And another thing, fair play to those guys (and girls!) on 538s gridding in front of some of the 620s!
the ice cream man has it..............it does work and if it continues like this it still will work.....not such a bad thing
weeksy2
14-Jul-2006, 14:36
if u dont race in DD you dont have an opionion unless you voice it through a racer now Rack off........;-)
Nopes, won't do it....
stumpy1
14-Jul-2006, 14:38
[QUOTE=domski]
Can you imagine 15+ 620 riders carving through a field of novices on slow bikes?
QUOTE]
no I can't imagine it based on oulton any rider outside the top 10 in class A would take 3 to 4 laps to catch anybody in the top 15 of class B
so that hardly constitues 15 riders on 620s going through a field of Class B bikes.
What those 10 riders do constitue is 25% of the grid which if I'm not mistaken is a minority.
and with the field spread out after a couple of laps then surely those on more powerful bikes aren't going to have to much of a problem picking off the odd 583 here and there
thats the way i would do it,
will to live lost............
split the grids if we can by getting a delayed start in with cb5's or hornets or what ever class is also low on numbers.....
Failing that..combined grid with a 10 second delay.......
Fastest class being 620 of first
Agreed, I think that is the most pragmatic solution for all involved.
Dominic Clegg
14-Jul-2006, 14:44
haveing raced on seperate and mixed grids i havent real had a problem with it yes i know im not running at the back and iv had a few 620 bikes get in my way when iv been chasing people down but im happy to race thats what im here for. i have a massive smile on my face at every round iv left so far i love it.
just looking at BSB you have two races with in a race you have BSB and privaters cup and rides get mixed up there okay not to the same extent we do but
Im real happy with this racing it doesnt cost the earth everyone helps eaxh other out. iv leant so much about racing, i know theres problem with a mixed grid but i think it work at the moment and i for one havent real had a masive problem with it.
lets get some more rides and then we can push new era again
You lot whinge too much :p Split/seperate grids would be lovely, but it's not going to happen. I'd rather be out with the rest of the DD field than CBs or Hornets, I like being amongst all the smokey Ducatis :D It's not ideal, but it'll do just fine thanks :)
stumpy1
14-Jul-2006, 14:49
haveing raced on seperate and mixed grids i havent real had a problem with it yes i know im not running at the back and iv had a few 620 bikes get in my way when iv been chasing people down but im happy to race thats what im here for. i have a massive smile on my face at every round iv left so far i love it.
just looking at BSB you have two races with in a race you have BSB and privaters cup and rides get mixed up there okay not to the same extent we do but
Im real happy with this racing it doesnt cost the earth everyone helps eaxh other out. iv leant so much about racing, i know theres problem with a mixed grid but i think it work at the moment and i for one havent real had a masive problem with it.
lets get some more rides and then we can push new era again
well said mate!!
couchcommando
14-Jul-2006, 14:55
If the straight line speed is the problem can I suggest NickB is given a weight handicap ;) ;) ;)
Zimbo16
14-Jul-2006, 21:21
haveing raced on seperate and mixed grids i havent real had a problem with it yes i know im not running at the back and iv had a few 620 bikes get in my way when iv been chasing people down but im happy to race thats what im here for. i have a massive smile on my face at every round iv left so far i love it.
just looking at BSB you have two races with in a race you have BSB and privaters cup and rides get mixed up there okay not to the same extent we do but
Im real happy with this racing it doesnt cost the earth everyone helps eaxh other out. iv leant so much about racing, i know theres problem with a mixed grid but i think it work at the moment and i for one havent real had a masive problem with it.
lets get some more rides and then we can push new era again
Seconded!
Fastfasulli
16-Jul-2006, 18:37
Thirded!
Fastfasulli
16-Jul-2006, 18:39
Thirded!
but I am running at the back
Yeah, get out the bloody way :lol:
...but you're out there dude ;) :D
Fastfasulli
16-Jul-2006, 18:58
I want this to be fun and stay fun......
It will always be fun when you're on your bike and on the track :D :D :D :D :D
Fastfasulli
16-Jul-2006, 20:25
It will always be fun when you're on your bike and on the track :D :D :D :D :D
agree with that one...c u at Donnington
FFS !
This thread is an example of why people are leaving !
If you want to race, the type of bike you are racing against doesnt matter.
Racing is about trying to get in front of someone and trying to stay there.
NOT ABOUT THE TYPE OF BIKE HES ONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE stop turning the one-make type of thing into a problem.
Its actually fun having races at some circuits with another class, and other circuits with another class. Trust me.
Let NE decide who to run each class with so they can make their books balance, and we'll get more DDs out there.
The thing thats stopped me from doing more than one round so far this year has been only getting one grid. (And I really wanted to do CC but am not poncing around with 1 race per day ! I just did 11 races in 2 days :-) )
If you want to learn how to race you have to do lots of races.
Cant you get your heads around that ?
I can run 2 DD bikes for the cost of one proper racer, so stop poncing around with 'DD is special' and work on MORE DDS OUT THERE IS GREAAAAAAAAT !
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