Some people were asking about if you need warmers on wets. Well wet tyres operate best around 40 degrees. If you can't regulate your warmers to that (most tyre warmers are set to eighty) then you are heating the tyres up too much. You would be able to feel the difference in grip as the extra and unrequired heat dissipates from the tyre and they settle around the operating temp - 40 degrees - in the first few laps. This change in grip level can fool you into thinking you have more than you do and again as the temp drops you won't be able to do what you could initally when they came off the warmers.
In a nutshell, yes you do, but they will hear up very quickly without.

i personally really dont think wets is our answer,maybe race control could be more aware of our tyre abilities in extreme conditions .Its not a blame thing,and like miles says and dallas does its your option and your right hand.

+1 to that BD, I would think someone from Dunlop also could contribute to this by saying what is or isn't reasonable to race in. :eek:

Just stick with the series how it is. Listen the the experienced DD riders like Kev and Ghost. Miles and the Pieman have it spot on.

I thought Miles post was a good take on the situation

I thought allowing people to drop rounds was a good way of allowing them to opt out or pull out of some wet races, but from last years rider meeting and form filling that wasn't wanted for this season.

Gusting winds as we had at Anglesey doesn't help in the wet especially if you have flat sided fairings as even on a moderte amount of lean the wind can catch the fairing lifting some of the weight off the bike and off of the tyres making it easier for the tyres to break away especially the rear under power.

Now for a few statistics from Anglesey
'
In our final race on sunday the one in where the Red Flag was shown following Matt's crash the fastest lap was set by Matt at 2m 09s some 23s slower than his recorded best dry lap of the weekend.
The following race in simialr conditions had Craig out on his 996 using wets and warmers his best lap was a 2m 12s lap some 29s slower than his best recoreded dry lap of the weekend.

As the rebuild of my 600SS engine came to a halt earlier due to lack of O-rings to go between the barrells and the crankcases I thought I would have a look at some of the results from Anglesey.

Not yet complete as I haven't checked all the races for the conditions they were held in. And as with statistics they don't paint the whole picture, for example in the final DD race although 18% didn't get to the red flag only Matt was a faller.
But by far our worst race as afr as non finishers goes was the original running of race 1 in the dry. Also note DD had a higher number of entrants to start with so provides a higher chance of producing non finishers.
Worst statisic of the day was the Michelin Power cup 1000 with less than 2/3rds of the field finishing and on the whole we faired better than the Michelin power cup 600 riders over the 3 races and were on Par with the grid Craig was on


Desmo Due (started with a grid of 30)

race 1 - dry almost 77% of the starting grid survived
race 1 - (The rerun) Wet 92% of the starting grid finished
race 2 - Damp - 88% Finished
race 3 - Wet almost 82% of the starters were classed as runners at the Red Flag
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Superbike/Supercup/Class1C/etc (started with a grid of 12)

Race 1 - Dry 75% of the starters finished
Race 2 - Dry(ish) almost 82% finished
Race 3 - Wet 91% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Michelin Power Cup 600 (started with a grid of 22)

Race 1 - 77% finished
Race 2 - 76% finished
Race 3 - Wet 81% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Michelin Power cup 1000 (started with a grid of 10)

Race 1 - 100% finished
Race 2 - 89% finished
Race 3 - Wet 62.5% finished

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Moto Grande 600 (started with a grid of 24)

Race 1 - 84% finished
Race 2 - 91% finished
Race 3 - 84% finished
Race 4 - 94% finished
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

Moto Grande 1000 (started with a grid of 24)

Race 1 - 87% finished
Race 2 - 81% finished
Race 3 - 95% finished
Race 4 - 94% finished

Intresting stats.
Just shows it's near enough the same for all classes dry/wet.

Craig

Wets only make laps quicker for those who are used to using them, confident in them and with experience of when to use them. Last season I finished ahead of 100 bhp bikes in a rookie race in the wet on my 600 ss. Using wets is a right old faff if you don't have a third set of wheels with inters that would mean six sets of tyres to cover punctures making it very expensive. DD already has a level playing field with a control bike and a road tyre. You don't need wets, don't brake something that doesn't need fixing. You don't need warmers on wets but this then relies on you getting a good warm up lap and if you cant see due to rain you can't get the heat into wets which then adds no value. There is an theory that says slicks are the best wet tyre if you can keep the heat in and don't gas it leant over. Introducing wets would be a bad decision, I run em in club racing because I have to but I've been out in the damp this season and matched my wet time on power one race tyres. Now that doesn't add up does it.

Standing water can be a problem, but whenever I have encountered it in a race I have backed off (Snett in 2011 for example). A Hottrax decision about how much is too much standing water is the only way forward. I think they have to make this call on their own.

This was exactly my point when this was discussed last year. Less grip = less speed = more time to react = better to build the skills to learn to ride in the wet (plus, any accident is at a much lower speed). Depending on how much standing water Matt hit, it could still have happened on wets, but his injuries could have been even worse

Dave, back on the original point, I don't think riders reps would help. I would certainly have volunteered myself, and I can't think of many conditions (other than snow and ice) that I wouldn't go and race in. In my eyes it was always an opportunity to level the field to my slower bike.

As for the "only another set of wheels/tyres" comments: I raced from an estate car with a trailer (it was the cheapest option for me, and if I had had to buy a van I may not have raced). Anyway, my point being that I already took bike, tools, Gazeebo, spares (including a set of wheels/tyres so I could practice on an old set and put new ones on for qually/race), food, riding gear, fuel and other bits and pieces. I (by that I mean my suspension and space!) simply couldn't have coped with "just another" set of wheels/tyres..... as it was, I didn't take spare fairings because of space.

As a novice I struggled enough with learning how my bike behaved, and with the rules as they are I could just go out in the wet and expect the same, but less... it is simple as it should be. We are all capable of getting our bikes around a race distance in one piece (wet or dry), it just comes down to how comfortable you are to push. Generally people are less comfortable in the wet, so they push less, and there are generally about the same number of finishers wet or dry. It is a choice to go out, and it is a choice to push. I don't think we can blame Hottrax for how much we want to push. However, I personally don't think Hottrax should allow you out if there is a lot of standing water, because this is particularly difficult to deal with.

In short - No wets, but maybe raise the issue with standing water with hottrax.

+1 on what Ron said. There are going to be at some point conditions where the majority of riders consider it dangerous. This is when we need a way to nudge the organisers and say - this aint right.

Mark.

yaay,another one that has been there and can see through the fuzz of a conveluted argument,i suppose if we focus in the general direction of no wets but maybe call or void the race race in exceptional circumstances then we are going in the right direction.However the track did seem to flood in rather a short period at anglsey,maybe this is due to the coastal location.

Another thing to take in consideration which is new to me after DD is this.

When you are looking at the sky 10 minutes before your race starts deciding which tyres to go with your stress level goes throught the roof just thinking about changing the wheels. :o

Was bit wet though. :eek:

I sense some manipulation in the numbers Kev; race 3 wet are you considering Andy C as a finisher? Is so that's manipulation of data. If not I apologise.

Otherwise good work....clearly as bored as I am right now ;)

[quote=

As for the "only another set of wheels/tyres" comments: I raced from an estate car with a trailer (it was the cheapest option for me, and if I had had to buy a van I may not have raced). Anyway, my point being that I already took bike, tools, Gazeebo, spares (including a set of wheels/tyres so I could practice on an old set and put new ones on for qually/race), food, riding gear, fuel and other bits and pieces. I (by that I mean my suspension and space!) simply couldn't have coped with "just another" set of wheels/tyres..... as it was, I didn't take spare fairings because of space.

[/QUOTE]

So you already had a spate set ;)

Totally agree with direction it seems to be going: leave it to race control but be mindful if a race gets scrubbed there's no whinging ;)

On my Spread sheet I had both figures, but as the result was taken at the end of lap 4 without Matt being included as the cause of the Red Flag then at that time the figure relates to those still out on track incliduing Andy, a DQ for other reasons enforced after the race is called removing him from the result doesn't change the the amount of riders out on track at the end of lap 4.

As the idea behind looking at the Stats was to do a comparison between the amount of riders still racing when the result is declared against those that started the race but didn't finish for one reason or another then including Andy is needed for a fair comparison, not doing it this way would be manipulating the figures,

As for having spare wheels for Wets I wouldn't bother I would just bring the Wet bike :)

As I said in a previous post Brands a couple of years ago was stopped after 6 laps as conditions were too bad in the organisers opinion due to standing water at the base of paddock.

Personally, for me, that race wasn't as bad as Anglesey was. So tyres are fine, but race control need to call it, I assume they would get direction from the marshalling posts as to the depth of standing water.

Is that you in a Duvet you fat git. :D

So what was it with Andy out? Will be the worst of the weekend for DD won't it?


Take the wet bike; love it :D

think you may have been ripped off coz the forecast looks pretty shite

No just big boned.......:lol:

Actually due to Welsh air pressure and fluctuations in the Yen things may appear larger than real. :frog:

we had two bad crashes on saturday in hot and dry conditions , because people push harder and ride ubove limits so perhaps we shouldent race when its hot and dry . ffs wot are we a knitting club or race club

I'll raise you two knit rows to one pearl.

Just over 77% so still Not as bad as Saturday's attempts at running race 1

Big difference is that when the 2nd red flag came out on Saturday, there had been 4 fallers and zero retirements, where as in race 3 on Sunday when the red flag came out there was 1 faller and several retirements.

Like i said perhaps we shouldent race in the dry:devil:

Get a Wet bike then all you need to decide is which one to put the transponder on, a lot quicker than changing wheels. It reduces the Stress Levels
Been there Done it :)

At times you would think we had short sprint races of only 6 laps or so as with New Era, but we now have races of 10, 12 or 14 laps (which is what we're paying for), twice as many laps to try and get a result
at times you wouldn't think so and at times the actual races end up getting reduced to 6 laps or so after having to be stopped, quite often in dry conditions

Obviously the tyres arent up to the power and speed our bikes are putting out in the dry , we need slicks and tyre warmers :devil:

ill raise you two pearl rows to one cabbage one

Cool idea, let's go slicks and wets :D

I'm happy as we are first two races were fine, last race very questionable. :eek:

One set missing there Paul, you will also need a set of wheels with Inters on.


Chris:burn:

sod it lets fit nobblys seems half the field seem to go grass tracking :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maybe the best bike option would be the 620 Multistrada then, nearest thing allowed in the class to a supermoto

I'm not to fussed about the safety aspect totally agree we are racing and 90% of it is in your right wrist

Some of you guys are quite rightly saying that race control need to be aware that our tyre is limited in comparison to a wet and should consider wether or not it's safe to let us out

but what happens then .. I'd be gutted watching others race just because I couldn't change my tyres.

And my real point about wets was that they are great fun .. and that's why I race .. because I like doing it and lets face it it's not a cheap hobby.

I'm on a moderate wage and I fund my racing myself as I'm sure most DD's do ... 300 odd quid is a lot to me and I know I'll be completely gutted wobbling around at novice trackday pace knowing I'm wasting my hard earned.

Looks like I'll get my chance to try it Sat .. I'll be the grumpy lookin fecker in need of a hug :lol:

knitting
 

as we're diversifying into knitting maybe we could knit some tyre cosies and use them instead of warmers

It's a dangerous sport this knitting, them needles can do some damage make sure you wear eye protectors

Just to lob my 2 penneth in.
Keep the rules as they are and well done to those who don't mind the watery stuff, personally I detest the rain and the idea of forking out £200+ of my own hard-earned to do something I don't like seems silly. Going out on track in the wet isn't racing for me, it's pottering round to maybe grab a couple of championship points. For me, the decision to enter on the day is well worth the extra £20 as I'd rather waste that than the full entry fee hating my track time, but this is purely a personal decision.
To have Hottrax make the call on whether we go out seems logical but as soon as time starts to get tight and the track is slightly moist you can guarantee we'll get scrubbed because to be totally honest I don't feel we are taken particularly seriously. The hope of any refund is somewhere between Bob and no and once they have over 6 grand (30 riders at £200+) in their bank we are just a hinderance to them so scrubbing our race on 'safety' reasons is just easy money.

On another point, can someone tell the Motors TV commentator the difference between A and B classes, white or yellow number boards aint rocket science is it??






All opinions in this post are purely those of the author, but cos it's me it makes them all correct.

On the subject of the TV coverage, Barry Nutley will be the new commentator - he used to commentate on BSB for ITV as well as being an ex-racer himself.

But can he distinguish between yellow and white?

He's great, gets well excited!!

Still the question remains...